Discussions of Mormons and Mormon life, Book of Mormon issues and evidences, and other Latter-day Saint (LDS) topics.

Tuesday, January 10, 2006

Why I've Been Distracted Lately. . .

It's been hard to write much in the past couple of weeks. You see, I'm still grumbling about what happened at the end of the year. We gathered all our receipts and other records and then spent most of Dec. 30 with the best tithing attorney in Wisconsin, preparing for our Dec. 31 tithing settlement date. Incredibly, the best this pricey expert could do was to get our tithing down to 10% of our income. I couldn't believe it, so I stayed up all night and studied the entire tithing code myself - all four verses - and couldn't find any loopholes either. I'm still losing sleep over the matter. No deductions for home teaching mileage? Fast offerings not tithing deductible? And no credit for all those chocolate chip cookies I personally baked and donated for a Young Men's event?

The tithing attorney admitted that business has been slow and sincerely hopes that you folks out in Salt Lake will work to get the code a little more up to 21st century tax code standards.

48 comments:

Mike Parker said...

I'm curious — are there any circumstances when you would consider it appropriate to deduct certain expenses out of tithing?

For example, if you purchase a ream of paper for use in making handouts for Sunday School, you could submit a receipt and get a refund from the ward budget ... or you could simply take it out of the tithing you planned to pay.

Rebecca said...

I guess you'll think this rather funny, my Morman friend certainly did. I'm not that familiar with LDS and have been reading to learn more. I found your website and thought it informational. I sent this post to my Morman friend and she just about fell over laughing. Silly me, I didn't realize it was a joke. I thought perhaps there were tithing attorneys and wanted to know if she used one when to help with her tithing.

obi-wan said...

You need a better attorney.

For starters, the expenses you incurred toward home teaching mileage and chocolate chip cookies are arguably not an "increase" to you, and so should be subtracted from the total amount on which you tithe.

I'm sure that there are plenty of other loopholes in the text if you just think about it a bit.

Mormanity said...

Obi-wan, you're absolutely right! In fact, now I'm thinking I probably should deduct my legal expenses after the unfortunate incidents that resulted after people ate my cookies.

ltbugaf said...

I'm glad the Brethren have been so staunch in refusing to elaborate on the definition of tithing. The question of what's income and what isn't is always left to the tither.

While my family lived in a government house on a military base, it seemed to make sense not to tithe on the house, because we wouldn't really know how to figure the tithing. Now that we live off base and receive a government housing allowance, it seems to make sense to tithe on the allowance. The result is that I pay much more in tithing now and have a much tighter budget. But I think I was doing the right thing in both instances. However, someone else could be making a different judgment and be just as faithful.

qhunt said...

ha ha ha, great post. You had me going there for a little bit. It is funny how the truth is the truth and how people want to bend it. That was a great analogy to show how the world tries to reach into every aspect of our lives. BUT, not the church. we can never confuse the world and the church.

Snarkimus Prime said...

You have been snarked.

http://snarkernackle.blogspot.com/2006/01/jeff-lindsay-looks-for-tithing.html

AlexG said...

I can recall a general authority to say to a brother that was asking if he should pay his tithing on his net or gross income to have responded: 'Brother, do you want your blessings net or gross?'

I guess that the loopholes would be centered on the definition of the word 'increase'. I guess the attorneys could work around a legal definition for an increase and then work out the possible ways in which members could deduct home teaching mileage, temple traveling expenses (if you live outside the US these might comprise more), material for Primary lessons (you would have to certify that you have the calling of primary teacher/leader) and so on. Ooh the possibilities. In the end we could get off with some extra pennies.

Rebecca: The law of tithing simply put is that you give 10% of your income (economical or goods) to the Church. Members tend to calculate that upon their gross payment, because they believe that everything else comes from the Lord. Yet tithing is not about the amount of money you give. The same faith is required to give $1 from a child's allowance than to give $1,000 from a $10,000 salary. At the end of the year a bishop (who is in charge of a congregation) sits with you and shows you how much you have paid (this is from the Church's records). It is up to you to say if that is an honest tithe, but bear in mind that Latter-day Saints (term prefered than Mormons or Mormans) consider the bishop as a representative of the Lord. So if you are lying, no one will notice, but the Lord and you. Hope this helps you to understand this.

Anonymous said...

"For example, if you purchase a ream of paper for use in making handouts for Sunday School, you could submit a receipt and get a refund from the ward budget ... or you could simply take it out of the tithing you planned to pay."

I knows you're joking. Still, for the impressionable, let me point out that deducting your own tithing would be (1) substituting your own spending priorites to the church's and (2) enhancing your ward's budget at the expense of other ward's budgets.

Adam Greenwood

Anonymous said...

The only thing I exempt from tithing is what is paid into my 401k. Why? Simplicity. Later on, on that nebulous day I retire, I'll simply pay tithing on the money as I withdraw it (and as it becomes taxable), so I won't have to worry about calculating how much was previously tithed, my employer's matching funds, the increase in value, dividends, etc.

Anonymous said...

Jeff,

I assume you've seen the old sugarbeet article on tithing deductions:

http://thesugarbeet.com/issue18/intheworld/exact_tithing.html

If not, it is worth a read!

Brian R said...

I stopped paying tithing years ago. I have not had any bad luck or been hurt financially because of it. In fact, my business continues to grow and I become a wiser and better investor of my money. This certainly rewards my children for my 'growing up' and not being superstitious anymore. Try it, you might find that what you have gained is not only 10% of YOUR own income back, but a healthier outlook on life.

Eric said...

Alternatively, I started paying tithing earlier this year and the money has kept rolling in since.

I'm an unemployed high school student, and while money isn't neccassarily tight I still have my expenses. Pretty much as soon as I decided to pay tithing on everything I get, I've had money come in from all kinds of places - and as a result, I've been able to pay even more tithing. It's a vicious cycle and I love it.

Brian R, why not go back to paying tithing? Assuming that you are indeed a member, and not some imposter or whatever, why would you give up the privlage of going to the Temple over a measley 10%?

Roy W. Wright said...

Erm... Don't you think Brian has bigger issues than tithing that keep him from going to the temple?

Walker said...

I would think so, Roy.

I've had too many experiences for me to believe that tithing is just a lubricant for the Mormon power machine. In any case, I think Brian has selectively listened to the tithing miracle stories that result in financial rewards, concluding therefore that financial blessings are inseparably connected with the law of tithing. Hardly. Though these stories are true and real, they are not always the Lord's Standard Operating Procedure.

Do as you will, Brian. But I've always believed it's healthier to give than receive.

Travis said...

My non-LDS co-workers often tease me that I get a discount on my tithing, because I have my quota of kids (5). I need to find a better tithing attorney, because it sounds like they know something I don't. 8)

qhunt said...

I pay tithing on 10% of what i take home, and then when i get my tax return I pay 10% on that. Is this wrong? I pay on what ever comes in, and I give a generous fast offering. I have heard both net or gross, as long as it is honest. can someone give me some concrete advice(words from general authorities or something).

AlexG said...

qhunt:

My humble appreciation is that you are 'overpaying' your tithe. Let me explain. The tax return, as I understand, comes through a difference between what the State charged you throughout a period of time and what later on is recognised to be the correct amount to be paid depending on salary, deductions, etc. Therefore you get the differential of those. Since you have already paid the 'gross' amount of taxes (pardon the expression) and they are sending you the difference between that and with your 'net' amount of taxes. As you have paid from your gross salary, I believe that you are paying an honest tithe. Although, I would suggest two things: a) fast and go to the temple and pray for guidance and b) talk to your bishop about it so you can get the answer that best works for you.

I believe that tithing is more a personal and faith issue. I do not see tithing as 'pay before receive blessings' sort of thing, rather comply to a law given by the Lord. Definitively, there have been blessings in my life, but I do not pay tithing to see what blessings the Lord will give me.

ltbugaf said...

qhunt: The general authorities have steadfastly refused to give you the more complete answer you're looking for. They leave it up to you to decide what is income. There are a lot of good reasons for them to do this. Your method is not less honest or less correct than someone else's.

Bookslinger said...

AlexG: qhunt stated that he pays tithing on net ("take home") not gross. Therefore, paying tithing on a tax refund seems appropriate.

Mike Parker said...

Please bear with the following quote from Joseph F. Smith. It's long, but well worth reading.

[quote]

Every man is left to be his own judge as to what he calls his tithing, and there is a great variety of opinion as to what a tithing is. A man who works for wages, and devotes his whole time to the service his employer, and he receives $1,000 or $2,000 a year for his salary, it is an matter for him to tell how much he owes for tithing. If I earned $2,000 a year, I should know that my tithing was just one-tenth of that. And I would not take out what it had cost me to feed and clothe myself and to pay all the expenses necessary to the maintenance of my family, before I reckoned with the Lord as to what belonged to Him. Two hundred dollars would be my honest tithing, would it not? That is the way I look at it. Then, if a farmer raises 2,000 bushels of wheat as the result of his year's labor, how many bushels should he pay for tithing? Well, some people will go, straightway to dickering with the Lord. They will say they hired a man so and so, and his wages must be taken out; that they had to pay such and such expenses, and this cost and that cost; and they reckon out all their expenses, and tithe the balance. If a man earns $1,000, and it has cost him $600 to live, he pays tithing on the remaining $400. He considers that his net income, and he reckons with the Lord on that basis. Well, a great many of the Latter-day Saints reckon with God in just that way.

Now, you are at liberty to do as you please in regard to this matter. You can choose which ever course you wish. But let me say to you that as we measure out so will it be measured back unto us again. When we go to dickering with the Lord, probably He will dicker with us: and if He undertakes to do so, we shall get the worst of it. I think we had better be honest with the Lord, and deal justly and liberally with Him; for, as it is said in the scriptures, the liberal man deviseth liberal things, and by his liberality shall he stand (Isa. 32:8). My experience in my childhood was that when the widow paid one-tenth of every bushel of potatoes, of wheat, of oats of barley; when she paid the tenth chicken, or egg, the tenth calf, the tenth colt, the tenth pound of beef, or pork-when she did this she was blessed, and I know it. God opened up her way, and multiplied blessings upon her; and though a widow, driven into the wilderness with a large family, and without means to take care of them, she never had to ask for or receive help from the Church to feed and clothe her or her children. The Lord provided for her, because she put her trust in Him and she was obedient to His law. I am a witness to that. And the Lord will provide for other widows in the same way. He will provide for all His people according as they put their trust in Him and are faithful and obedient. "Obedience is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams" (1 Sam. 15:22). It is the heart and the willing mind that the Lord requires of His people, and not so much their substance. He does not need our obedience. But we need to be obedient; for it is through obedience that we will receive the reward.

[unquote]

From General Conference, April 1899.

Anonymous said...

Can any of us *really* be 10% tithe payers?

Did you remember to tithe for all the Christmas, birthday, etc. gifts you received? What if you didn't like the gift? What if you donated it or threw it away before the end of the year?

Did you remember to tithe for all the fruits and veggies from your garden? Hmm, how does one tithe on 8 scrawny eggplants?

Hmm, I won a door prize from a (pay to enter) homeshow. Was this gambling? [Gambling is excluded from tithing - Ask your Bishop].

How do you tithe on the plate of cookies your VT's brought over?

"Wisdom is better than gold". How do I tithe on things I've learned?

Hmm I sold some stock for more then I orignally paid for it and some other stock for less than I orginally paid for it. Do losses cancel gains? How about major losses like theft or disaster (or usury)?

Short of overpaying, Can any of us *really* be 10% tithe payers?

Chris said...

I was at a Priesthood Leadership meeting in Toronto on Sat. Jun. 15, 1991. Elder Boyd K. Packer and M. Russell Ballard were in attendance. In an open question and answer period, someone asked the question. "Do you pay Tithing on your net or gross income?" Elder Packer said "You pay on your gross." My notes from that meeting show that he also said "Don't tamper with the Law of Tithing." and "You are entitled inspiration for paying your Tithing." Paying Tithing is the required offering. If you really want to receive some of the extra blessings the Lord has for you, Try paying 1% of your gross income to Fast Offerings. Note to Jeff, I have been enjoying your various sites for awhile now. Keep up the good work.

ltbugaf said...

“The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.” (First Presidency letter, 19 March 1970.)

I hope everyone here will pay particularly close attention to that last sentence in the First Presidency's statement.

ltbugaf said...

I guess I should have included one more sentence from the First Presidency letter. The following comes immediately after what I quoted above:

“We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.”

Brian R said...

"In any case, I think Brian has selectively listened to the tithing miracle stories that result in financial rewards, concluding therefore that financial blessings are inseparably connected with the law of tithing. Hardly. Though these stories are true and real, they are not always the Lord's Standard Operating Procedure."
You say selectively listening to tithing miracles with a straight face? Unless you attend some other church than the one I do, that is all that is talked about when it comes to tithing. FATM is full of members relating stories of the blessings that come from tithing. Those stories are filled with refrences to monetary blessings for obeying this law. There is nothing selective about it, SS lessons are full of stories as well about the monetary blessings that come from tithe paying. Stories where coincidence can attribute for many of the factors.
I was a tithe payer and a temple goer for my first 20 years in the church. I no longer pay tithing and like I said, am the no worse for it.
I also believe it is better to give than receive. That is why my company donates so much to charity.

Walker said...

You say selectively listening to tithing miracles with a straight face?

I probably could, if it weren't for that nasty face-deforming accident years ago j/k

In all seriousness, I can honestly say that I do not remember hearing any adult member of the church (you know kids say the darndest things) say that they get rich from paying their tithing. I never have, but I continue to pay out of religious conviction If we did, what kind of a sacrifice would that be? It would be no more than a wise financial investment. Dare I portray the sacrifice of Isaac as a "wise financial investment"? Not quite.

The scripture with which I'm certain you are familiar (Mal. 3:8-9) says only that the Lord will pour out a blessing so large that we cannot receive it.

I also believe it is better to give than receive. That is why my company donates so much to charity.

And you're saying that with a straight face? You're telling me that you would rather pay an organization with paid workers and tremendous overhead than an organization whose workers are overwhelmingly made up of volunteers? (not totally, but the vast majority). In any case it's apparent that you don't value the work that does result from tithing funds (temples, churches, the like). And before you mention the "corporate church" accusation, please note that the Church must deal wisely with their money in these times as anyone else. If we just kicked all our money into a big piggy bank somewhere, then we would not be able to carry out the humanitarian work or temple building we do.

As has been noted, I'm not so sure that tithing really is the issue here. I've seen some poor folks pay their tithing without so much as a whisper. If anyone deserves a break, they do. On the other hand, when RASPish (Relatively Rich, Anglo-Saxon Protestants) folks like us take issue with it, I can't help but think that our objection is probably not finance based, as we are in a far better position to pay than some of our more devoted, poorer folks are.

captveg said...

I pay my tithing because God has asked me to. I don't care about blessings or anything else, to be honest. "I know not save the Lord commanded me" seems to be sufficient for me.

Walker said...

My slip--I said we were Protestants (just pretend like the acronym RASM sounds catchy).

I just know some folks would have a hey day with it, so I figured I would cover myself.

qhunt said...

Thanks for the help, or really the lack of help. The answer I have recieved is: I decide my own answer. I would never dare "cheat" on my tithing. I don't feel i have or am right now. Thanks for the words of wisdom brothers and sisters.

ltbugaf said...

Brian R. said, "I no longer pay tithing and like I said, am the no worse for it."

Brian, you are worse off. By placing yourself in a state of rebellion against God, defying him and refusing to obey his commandment, you are very much making yourself worse off.

You say you have present prosperity because you're keeping more money. Are you sure you want to trade that present prosperity for Eternal Life? Willful disobedience to God has a high price.

I hope you will reconsider your position, repent, and choose to obey God's law while you still have time to do so.

Floyd the Wonderdog said...

Well said ltbugaf. There isn’t always a financial reward when we sacrifice to pay our tithing. But then again, the Lord doesn’t always balance His books in this lifetime. A High Council speaker gave us a wonderful talk on not basing our expectations on the folk religion that is too prevalent among the saints. His talk was on tithing and he emphasized that the there wasn’t always a check in the mail when we sacrificed.

I had a dream that has helped me put things in perspective. I was standing out in a field in the rain. The rain was warm and I was enjoying it. An angel came up behind me and a little to one side. We talked for a short while, when he said that he had been sent by Father to give me a gift and that I could have anything I desired. Too quickly I said that I had two daughters in college and could use some money to pay for college. He turned away and began to prepare the gift. I asked him to stop. I explained that what I really wanted was eternal life for me and my family. He smiled and said that that was what he thought I really wanted. He prepared the gift, gave it too me, and the dream ended.

Now, if I find myself concentrating unduly on material things, I remind myself that what I really want is eternal life for me and my family.

What would you ask for if you were given the same opportunity?

Ian said...

Great lesson wonderdog. I have overwhelmingly found that those who disobey the law of tithing those that value worldly things (their boat, jetski, snowmobile, BMW etc.).

I have not noticed any monetary gain from paying tithing. I am barely scraping by right now, but I have "food on my family" *snicker* a roof over our heads and love at home. What more does their need to be. Sure I'd have an extra couple of hundred bucks a month that I could put down on a nice... um... snowmobile?, but I would rather take the eternal blessings.

Anonymous said...

Often the choice isn't whether to buy ATV, Snowmobiles, etc or pay tithing. But rather to feed the kids or pay the mortgage or pay tithing. I really find it hard to believe that Heavenly Father wants to get tithing rather than the kids get fed.

Bookslinger said...

Anon at 3:00pm:
I'm surprised you don't know about the LDS welfare system. If, after paying tithing, the family doesn't have enough food, the church welfare system can provide food. No worthy member of the church has to go hungry.

And as far as I know, people who don't even pay tithing might still be eligible for church welfare.

I've also heard that if a member goes to their bishop and asks for food, they might be asked to cancel their satellite or cable TV. I've heard the church will help sustain your life, not your lifestyle.

Ask Jeff (Mormanity), he used to be a Bishop, and he can fill you in on more of how church welfare works.

I think it's a great system. I've volunteered at the local Bishop's Storehouse, from which food is distributed to needy members. I've volunteered to drive the storehouse's truck to other chapels in the area to make deliveries. And I've volunteered at the regional warehouse where tons of such food and emergency food is kept.

Such a welfare system for members has grown into a system that has also served many non-members many times in emergency situations in the US and around the world, such as flooding, hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc. The LDS church welfare system is often among the first responders to such crises.

Fortunately, I've been blessed materially in this life. My food problem is the opposite, I eat too much.

No children go hungry by necessity in the LDS church, at least in the United States. I don't know how much of the welfare system has been exported to foreign countries yet.

If you're not a member, you can't pay tithing, but you could still donate "fast offerings" which are used to feed poor members of the church. Would you like to help out?

If the LDS church isn't your favorite charity, what charities that feed the poor do you donate to? I like Christian Chrildren's Fund, and International Rescue Committee. The latter specializes in helping refugees around the world. But I haven't donated to them in a while.

Ian said...

I don't see why a non-member couldn't pay tithing really...

Anonymous said...

Bookslinger, the idea on getting the Bishop to help you with your bills is usable to a point. But don't forget that fast offering funds are finite, and the Bishop may not have the fast offering funds to help everyone. I've seen had a family member in a rather desperate financial situations, and their Bishop wasn't able to help much. I still believe that the first responsibility of a family is feed and house the children, as well as other crucial needs (i.e: medical needs). If these needs can't be met if tithing is paid, then I believe that you should take care of your family first.

Floyd the Wonderdog said...

Often the Bishop is unable to help people financially because they are unwilling to help themselves.

The church requires that people do something for the assistance they receive. It's not something for nothing. When I was bishop, I actually had people refuse to perform simple tasks like trim the hedges at the church, because they thought it was beneath them. But asking for a handout wasn't. Yes, I made sure that the person was physically able to perform the task.

People are also supposed to ask family for assistance first. But many feel it's easier to go to the bishop rather than approach one's parents or in-laws.

In one case, after reviewing the family finaces, I couldn't determine where the shortfall was (and I have an MBA). So I asked the couple to carry notebooks and record their spending for a week. The next week the notebooks were blank. They felt it was too much work to account for their own spending.

And, yes, sometimes, the bishop will ask people to curb their spending. I've been in homes that have cable and DSL, where the kids drink soda pop rather than water, and they expect the church to support that lifestyle. I as a bishop could not justify using a widow's fast offerings to support a frankly extravagent lifestyle.

The bishop tries to teach self-reliance, but sometimes the person views the bishop as an extention of the welfare state.

Sparky said...

Hello all..long time reader, first time poster...

Regarding the net vs gross argument...
For your 18-65 year life you pay gross. Fast forward to retirement. For your Social Security check you are all set because you payed into that all your life and now are getting it back. But what about your 401K increase?? How do you know what amount of your 401K you have tithed and what part is growth over time and needs to be paid a 10th? When you pay net, you just keep paying tithing on your income your entire life. Does not make it right or wrong, but some insight I learned.

I do live better on 90% of my income then I could on 100%!

Bookslinger said...

Anon at 10:00pm,
If needs are legitimate, the bishop is allowed to draw on funds from outside of that ward's fast offerings. So in effect, the rich suburban wards' fast offerings end up feeding people in poorer inner-city or rural wards. I haven't seen the figures of course, but people who claim to be in the know tell me that at the overall church level fast offerings don't fully cover church welfare, and that tithing funds are used to make up the difference.

Also, the church doesn't let children go hungry. I've seen that. When you said "their bishop wasn't able to help much", that might have meant he couldn't make their mortgage payment for them. Or maybe like Floyd said, their bishop told them to cancel the cable, then he'd help out. But a bishop (in the US at least, I dunno about foreign) can always feed hungry members, as long as certain criteria are met, which Floyd outlined. (Cancel cable, stop impulse purchases, stop eating at McDonald's, do *something* as long as they are physically able.)

But if parents aren't willing to cancel their cable/satellite or stop taking the whole family to the $9 movie theater every weekend, it's not accurate for them to say they "can't" pay any tithing, or to blame the bishop if the kids go hungry.

This teaching of the church was made clear to me: if paying tithing requires you to need food from the church welfare system, then go ahead and pay tithing and go on church welfare. Tithing is that important a principle. Even if you take out more in church welfare than what you pay in tithing.

I've seen and volunteered in the monumental food distribution system the church has. I've seen parents who would not otherwise qualify for church food receive it for the sake of their children. And I've seen where minor non-member children living at home also receive food because their parents qualify to receive church food.

Here's a cool web page where "Hillbilly Housewife" details how to feed a family of 4 on only $45/week. It has very detailed instructions.

Floyd,
I read one comment over on Millennial Star recounting how a Stake President in TN said that people in his stake had to sell their bass boat before they'd get church assistance.

Anonymous said...

Sparky said "For your Social Security check you are all set because you payed into that all your life and now are getting it back."

Not quite. In *most* cases one will get back much more than one 'donated' (including lost interest).

ltbugaf said...

Ian: When I was a priest, my bishop told the quorum that one has to be a member of the Church to pay tithing. A non-member could make a charitable donation to the Church but it was not to be classified as a tithe. I don't fully understand the reasons for that but that was the rule, or policy, as explained by my bishop at the time (in the early 1980s).

Walker said...

ltbugaf:

You're right, at least as far as the books go. However, I believe (personal op here) that the non-member would be blessed in most ways that a member would for paying, if not all of them.

qhunt said...

bookslinger and floyd, thank you so much for your insight on the church welfare syste.

I live in the Kalamazoo II ward in Michigan, we see the welfare system get abused at times. I have also seen members not come to church becuase it is too much of a burden and then wonder why their food orders where cancelled. I have home taught in houses that were little more than shacks that were on the church welfare system that had big screen TV's, playstation, and more cable options than you can shake a stick at. I don't even get four channels, no cell phone, 1 normal color TV, and no internet. But I provide for my wife and son through hard work and prioritizing. I think there should be a hard fast rule on "entertainment" or "lifestyle limitations" before anyone can recieve assistance.

Call me old school (i am only 27) but I believe I got to where I am today by hard work and proiritizing. Teaching a man to fish (forcing a lifestyle change) is the greatest assistance you can give! let me know your thoughts bookslinger and floyd, I always like to know what educated (spiritually and worldy) people think.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if a person who pays on "net" and then pays on their tax return is looking for a way to pay less. Those 2 figures added together will be less than paying on gross in the first place. I guess it depends on what is in your heart. Why wouldn't you just pay on the "gross" instead of ask if it is okay to do a different way that you know requires less?

Anonymous said...

sgda

Anonymous said...

I have a brother in law that stands up in the LDS church and preachs family values. What a shame he beats the crap out of his children. What a shame you would ask for any money to support your oversized temples that you fill with men and teach the women thay have no place but where there so called husbends think there place should be. You have no right to ask for 10 percent of anything. God certainly is not impressed with you setting a 10 percent standard. My sister went to her bishop for guidence as divorce is emminent. He blessed her and told her things will be better in 2 months. How can you guarentee such bull. The LDS church is for men and look away at the abuse of women and children. I have seen it with my own eyes. I hope my sister comes to her sences and not only divorces that abuseive bastard but leaves your brain washing, money exstorting church.

Sincerely
Karen Worthen

ltbugaf said...

Karen, I wish you had chosen to make this comment on a thread about abuse, where it would be relevant, rather than on this thread about tithing, where it isn't.

What I can tell you from my experience in my bishopric is that the Church's policies against abuse of women and children are strong and strongly enforced. In fact, the Church has a full-time abuse hotline to help bishops in dealing with these situations.