Discussions of Mormons and Mormon life, Book of Mormon issues and evidences, and other Latter-day Saint (LDS) topics.

Sunday, August 19, 2007

LDS Idolatry?

Idolatry is one of the great sins of this generation, according to LDS prophets such as Spencer W. Kimball (for details, see his comments in "Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me"). Interestingly, Latter-day Saints have been accused of idolatry by a few of our critics. After all, some of our temples have a statue of the Angel Moroni on top. To us, the statue is symbol of angelic proclamation to the world of the Restoration of the Gospel, in possible fulfillment of Rev. 14:6. The idea that we would worship the statue is ridiculous. But, as one commenter has charged, the word of God forbids making graven images, and so by using statues or any other images associated with our temples or churches, we are in clear violation of the word of God.

I've run into only a few other Christians that had such strenuous objections to any kind of images being associated with places of worship, mistaking use of an image for idolatry or basic violation of the Ten Commandments.

So are we idolatrous violators of the Second Commandment for having a statue reminding us of an angel proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world with the sound of a trumpet?

Let me pose some hypothetical questions to those few of you with hangups in this area. Would it be better if we replaced our hollow, gold-plated statue of an angel with a solid gold statue having much higher precious metals content? Oh, a step in the wrong direction - just adding to the value and glitz factor, making it all the more appealing to the idolatrous LDS mind.

OK, would it be better if then had two angels on each temple? No? Perhaps twice as bad, eh?

OK, how about if we dress up the proposed solid gold angel duos by adding some flashy wings to make them more supernatural? No improvement, perhaps even worse?

OK, what if we go beyond just using it as a symbol and instead say that our winged golden angels are holy, sacred objects, or part of a complex of sacred objects? What if we put those images in the holiest part of our temple, only to be taken out and paraded to awe the people in religious ceremonies and to work mysterious miracles? What if we say that our angels and associated holy relics are so sacred that to even touch them would bring divine wrath and perhaps even instant death upon the sinner?

Would that be an improvement and gain your approval for valid, biblical use of angelic statues? No? You say it would confirm that we're a crazed blasphemous idolatrous cult in direct violation of the sacred principles God gave to Moses? Ouch.

Would it make any difference to you if we told you that these deviant practices are OK in our opinion because they were revealed to us from God through a true prophet of God? Not a chance, huh?

Well, would it help if that prophet were Moses? Would it help if Moses were simply carrying instructions from God relative to the sacred Ark of the Covenant, associated with the Tabernacle and later the Temple of Solomon, an Ark that was adorned with two golden cherubim statues as directed in Exodus 37:7-9? Would it help open your mind if you realized that these instructions were given by the same God who earlier gave the same prophet the commandment to not make graven images? Is it possible that the meaning of the Second Commandment was not to forbid religious images and even golden angel statues per se, but to prevent worshipping of idols?

Maybe you'll argue that the cherubim on the Ark were too small to be a problem, or somehow don't quality as "graven." If so, it might help to consider the later construction of Solomon's Temple in 2 Chronicles 3 and 4. There we read of huge cherubim being constructed with a wingspan of about 20 cubits (about 60 feet), as described in 2 Chronicles 3:11 - dwarfing any LDS statue on or near a temple. And the giant cherubim statues overlooking the smaller statues on the Ark of the Covenants were not enough: the Lord also directed that there be "graved cherubims on the walls" in 2 Chron. 3:6, in addition to cherubim on the curtains (v. 14). And they are specifically called "graved" - surely that can't be considered as anything but graven images. And the images in the temple weren't just limited to cherubim, but also included statues of oxen (twelve of them, in fact - see 2 Chron. 4:2-4), not to mention four hundred pomegranates (2 Chron. 4: 13) and a variety of other objects including flowers of pure gold (2 Chron. 4:21). A graven situation, indeed.

100 comments:

NM said...

This post reminds me of a fantastic sermon by John Piper entitled, "The First Dark Exchange: Idolatry"...

...excellent sermon. =)

Good post Jeff =)

NathanielMacrae

Joseph Antley said...

Bah. Who gives a hoot if well-meaning Christians think Moroni is an idol.

Bruce V C said...

You forgot to mention that they are sometimes struck by lightning, per http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/facts/ . Somebody up there must not like them. *eyeroll* I seem to recall from somewhere that the statues are often properly grounded, so actually act as lightning rods by design.

Great post.

Mormanity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Latter-Day James said...

I am not too quick. Were you alluding to the cross and how it is sometimes on top of some, non-Mormon Christian, Churches?

Mormanity said...

A key point here is the danger of thinking that one's opinions are the pure will of God because one can find some words in the Bible that seem to support that opinion. One can take "no graven images" and use that as a hammer to condemn all sorts of things as idolatry, and even claim that it is done "without interpretation," just repeating the pure word of God - which is utter rubbish if one doesn't recognize there is always a need to determine what the words actually mean and how they are meant to be applied. If God later commanded Moses to make solid gold cherubim for the tabernacle, and later commanded a prophet to make "graved" images of cherubim and giant cherubim for the temple, then graven images per se must not be the intent of the Second Commandment. Clearly the intent is not to worship anything besides the Lord. The language is meant to refer to idols, not religious art and symbols in general.

Mormanity said...

LD James, that was in the back of my mind. I think some of us Latter-day Saints are sometimes too quick to condemn other religious practices. Some of us have casually likened crosses and statues used in other Christian religions to idolatry when people pray before them or seemingly to them, but such condemnation may be unkind. While I'm not personally comfortable with the way some people use such objects, I can respect those practices as a sincere attempt at following the Lord, whom they worship.

Travis said...

Many Mormons are idolaters. 'While it isn't the angel Moroni that they idolize, it amazes me how many of them idolize their cards, their houses, their boats, their TVs, their movie stars, etc. Yes we have problems with idolatry, but not because we have a statue on our temple.

Anonymous said...

I have a replica of the gold plates that I pray before to my Father in Heaven, is this idolatry?

Latter-Day James said...

Mormanity, I wasn't really condemning. I am open-minded enough to realize why some non-Mormon Christians use the cross on their church and in other church services. I just wonder why some don't realize why we use the angel Moroni on the Temples. Why aren't we given the same respect? Just a rhetorical question.

Mormanity said...

LD James, I didn't think you were condemning anybody - the comment just triggered a thought about those who do, and reminded me also of my own prejudices in the past.

There is a good chance that the few who get bent out of shape over a statue of an angel might not have any trouble about the symbols and images in and on their own churches.

Nick Literski said...

I think there is a far greater threat of LDS "idolatry" in the obsession over whoever happens to hold the position of president of the church at a given time. LDS devotion to "the prophet" often borders on fanatical.

Jay said...

Nick--Please explain: If your laughable accusation were somehow true--and you know it's not--how could that be a personal problem for you?

Russell said...

Nick--

I don't know what members you have talked to (certainly not orthodox ones--I don't care what they say). They certainly do not represent my view or the views represented by the scriptures or the brethren themselves.

If there is fanaticism involved here, it is on the part of those who stubbornly insist that LDS members believe in something when in fact they do not.

Russell said...

Jeff--

Totally off topic. But you'll never guess where I gave a talk this Sunday. In the Fox Cities Hmong branch. My brother lives nearby (same stake) and was talking with his bishop. When the bishop learned that I speak Hmong, he arranged for me to give a talk in the branch. It was a great experience for all.

Nick Literski said...

Jay and Russell,
First of all, let me clarify something that appears to have been misleading. I did not intend to make a statement about all LDS members. I can see, however, how what I wrote can be misunderstood.

Second, I have to chuckle that after 26 years as an active member of the LDS church, I must not know anything about the church or its culture, and just "talked to" the wrong people. ;-)

With that clarification, I'll stand by what I said. I have known quite a number of LDS members who take "follow the prophet" to the point of idolatry. They engage in behaviors which are devoted to the person, rather than what that person teaches. Even Deseret Book realizes there's enough of a "market" for this kind of thinking, and they accordingly marketed an enormously tacky 12" resin statue of Gordon B. Hinckley waving a white handkerchief a few years ago. (Personally, I think Gordon B. Hinckley probably found that embarassing, rather than in any way flattering.)

I well remember one well-intentioned home teacher, who commented during a visit to my home on the importance of having one's testimony "centered on the prophet." Now, OF COURSE we all know he was out of line with Mormon doctrine on that one. I suggested that he really meant centered on Christ, at which time he was clearly aghast. The next month (over his companion's objections), he came to my home with a special lesson on the importance of prophets. That was a man who had become distracted in his devotion.

Again, I'm not saying that all LDS are this way. Some are this way, however. There are certainly more who behave in this way, than could ever venerate a statue of Moroni.

Latter-Day James said...

Nick,so are you saying there are many like this? And if so where do you get your info? Personal experience is good but not when it generalizes a large amount of any group.

I do understand the point you are trying to make. The Prophet should be revered but never placed above Christ.

Mormanity said...

I can see Nick's point. There are some who have a hard time grasping just what it means to have fallible, mortal men as leaders. We need to understand that they can make mistakes, just as Joshua, Moses, Jacob, Jonah, and others in the Bible did.

Occasionally local leaders act or think as if they are infallible, and that's when things can get really problematic. Being the leader and seeking inspiration does not make all decisions truly God's choice.

adamite said...

There is a big difference between the worshiping of graven images in Babylonia, Egypt, etc. and having a statue of an angel on a temple. We do not pray or worship Moroni as the Babylonians,Egyptians,etc. did with their gods. And we do not go to the prophet to ask for forgiveness or worship him as a god. We go to him for inspiration on how God would want us lead our lives. Christ is at the head of this Church and through His chosen leaders directs us on how to live righteously. Every single church or organization that has lost a divinely inspired and righteous prophet and leaders has disintegrated and splintered into a thousand different pieces or disappeared into history. This Church has withstood the tests of time and all manners of persecution and is still going strong. If you believe in a living Christ and God the Father and this Church is so evil why would they allow it to continue to grow in this world? Any organization that is based on false doctrine would not survive intact the amount of persecution this church has received. It still amazes me that in this land of religious freedom there was an executive order to hunt Mormons and the amount of persecution Mormons received for their beliefs and still do. If this church is so evil why would Satan try to destroy it? The statue of Moroni is no different than the crosses and statues on other churches.

adamite said...

I apologize to anyone who might be offended by some of my above comments. I get carried away sometimes. I worked long and hard on my beliefs and when someone says I or any other member of this Church is being deceived, or idolaters, or whatever it gets me all fired up and I don't know when to quit. We will never know exactly all of the details of the Gospel until the very end when Christ comes.

dakwegmo said...

I'm with Nick. There are definitely people in the church whose devotion to the prophet borders on idolatry. I for one, refuse to sing "Praise to the Man" because I see it as going way beyond devotion to the point of worship.

dakwegmo said...

And just so there's no question about my loyalties, I sing "We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet" with gusto.

NM said...

Personally, I have only been to a LDS meeting twice in my life. The more significant out of the two was when I went in younger teens. I didn't really know much about the LDS church then - neither did I know much about my own?!

But, what I do remember - and did think it rather odd, was when the congregation started to sing a hymn about Joseph Smith...I don't remember much about the song; and I'm sure it wasn't as if the lyrics were describing a deity or anything...but still...it was quite odd =/

ANYWAY...

I think we are all guilty of idolatry in some form or another. We make idols of ourselves almost all of the time. The struggle in this life has always been and always will be Man's will VS. God's divine will.

I thank God, though, that He is ultimately in control of every situation; that He is sovereign - and that even in suffering (which He ordains), He is glorified.

NathanielMacrae

dakwegmo said...

Nathaniel,

Look up the Lyrics to "Praise to the Man". Of particular note is the first line of the third verse, "Great is his glory and endless his priesthood." Note, the lowercase 'h' in 'his', the song is talking about Joseph Smith's Glory and Priesthood. This is one of the reasons I refuse to participate in signing this particular hymn.

I respect the lyrics as the personal sentiments of W.W. Phelps, but I think it is a mistake for the church to continue to endorse its message by including it in the official hymnal.

RWW said...

I don't have a problem with "Praise to the Man." What does worry me is the constant repetition of "When the Prophet says something, do it." Joseph Smith and Brigham Young repeatedly taught quite a different view.

teranno4x4 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
teranno4x4 said...

Dear Jeff / Mormanity,

Interesting post - more worryingly some rather disconcerting comments left by readers.Please allow me to insert a few (randomly selected) passages from the Bible, that you can take on their own or read more of the Chapter / story context to examine them and see if the words are true or if I am using them to suit my own belief (which I would never do, as it would discredit God) .... !

1. Exodus 20:4-6
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

2. Isaiah 14:12-14
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

3. 1 Kings 11:6,7
6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

4. Isaiah 2:17-22
17And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
18And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
19And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?

5. Colossians 3:5,6
5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

6. 1 Samuel 5:1-5
1And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod.
2When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.
3And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again.
4And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him.
5Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon's house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day.


If you want more evidences I can add them for you .....

--------------------------------------------------------------

Let us first look at the definition of graven image given by an Oxford English dictionary: noun, a carved figure of a god used as an idol.

This is quite distinct in meaning. It is a creation of man's hand, to depict some kind of false deity in that it is NOT the TRUE GOD - capital 'G'. When taken in context with some of the Biblical false gods (one can look in the above texts for inclusion), these are paralleled with 'high places'. Now when I read from God's own finger "any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above"from Exodus 20, doesn't that include angels ? Under which would fall your own 'Moroni'. Maybe it is jumping to conclusion, but when I see this identified idol of gold in the highest possible place of adornment on your temple, Lucifer a fallen angel, claiming the position to be like the Most High immediately springs into my head. This is an impersonating deception - nothing more. It is not held in connection with Rev14:6, mainly because the 1st angel depicted is flying, not standing. It would be too dificult to replicate this scene in sculpture - to every nation and tongue giving instruction to "Fear God and give glory to Him"! Not 'make a replica of me for your temples'. The real question is – what if this understanding is the true one ?

Yes, God did instruct Moses to place the cherubim on the 'mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant'. What was the reason for this ? The Ark as an object was not to be worshipped by the people, but over it would appear the 'shekhinha glory' that would demonstrate God's presence with Israel in the tabernacle. It was symbolically an earthly representation of the very THRONE OF GOD that doesn't have carvings of angelic beings - but more importantly - REAL covering ANGELS. If God wanted to include this in His design, who are we to question it ? Show me God's design for your temple from the Bible and I will accept that Moroni in-situ is not an idol - that is what it boils down to. Or even show me Moroni in the Bible? If it is not there - I must hold it counterfeit - I am sorry as it conflicts with my more modest and humble form of worshipping God. Solomon made a presumption in my eyes that lead him to create something that was not ordained or instructed but was still uplifting to God and accepted in the way it was offered. The Glory of God still filled the temple and sat above the Ark of the Covenant (2 Chron 5:14). Now when Solomon had seen this Glory, why did he apostasise and erect high places to false gods ?

These Biblically defined graven images can not be re-labelled religious symbols, nor are they pieces of art like scuptures - they have a significant calling in or around a place of worship. If one is bowing down in their vicinity, then like it or not, it is an idol and directly replaces God according to commandment 2. This is the whole reason why the Papacy has removed this commandment from it's version of the complete 10 in an attempt to protect themselves. Did you also know that ?

You mock the intelligence of all who do not agree with you when you discuss the nature of the statue on the LDS temple. If it were full gold it would be an attraction simply for thieves. If there were two of them and the commandment has been broken, then there are no degrees of sin in the sight of God, only degrees of guilt from the sinner. All sin is magnified greatly before His presence. Would you in your present sinful state be prepared to touch the symbolic throne of God ? - I for one, certainly wouldn't !

On "holy sacred objects" - there shouldn't be any - quite simply. The mercy and Divine Grace offered by Jesus Christ is the very object of our perfection. All else falls into insignificance! I pity ‘anonymous’ if he was serious about his replica gold plates (has he ever seen the originals to KNOW they are a replica) ..... I digress ....

To correct your understanding of the Bible :
(" At 9:15 PM, August 19, 2007, Mormanity said...
A key point here is the danger of thinking that one's opinions are the pure will of God because one can find some words in the Bible that seem to support that opinion. One can take "no graven images" and use that as a hammer to condemn all sorts of things as idolatry, and even claim that it is done "without interpretation," just repeating the pure word of God - which is utter rubbish if one doesn't recognize there is always a need to determine what the words actually mean and how they are meant to be applied. ") ,
in order to fully understand the meaning, you are correct of course. One must determine firstly the literal meaning. Then one must understand the context or the time in which the passage was written. Then one must search for the symbolic meanings - if there are any at all. Then a prophetic understanding must be maintained if included. Then finally to be 100% sure, test all the previous by looking as much to the original language or original writing. For my faith to date, I have followed all of the above to test it - have you ?

In your review on this topic, you twist and manipulate God's own understanding and definition of a graven image to suit your own belief. Look at the examples in the Bible. Graven images of Baal, Dagon, Nebuchadnezzar, plus the groves and the high places were recorded as repeatedly torn down, smashed and sometimes even by supernatural intervention (see when the Ark was placed next to the image of Dagon, by the Philistines in 1 Samuel 5).

Man can twist, contort and manipulate and even turn 180 degrees, but God will always remain unchanging, faithful and true! Idolatory can be born in anything animate or inanimate ( thought crime ) that replaces our inbuilt desire for God. Since satan is the one who is in direct opposition to God and will directly benefit, he alone is the one to whom the idol worship goes. This is why there is a need for extreme care and utmost reverence when approaching God's throne represented by Jesus Christ in our Christian worship services.

In closing I repeat the passage thought to have caused this whole topic as a warning by Paul in Colossians 2:18 "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,"

Thanks be to God our Creator and Redeemer!

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

The sub-topic regarding the symbol of the cross is a more delicate one.

Ultimately, the cross was an item of extreme torture and symbol of death under any Roman Empire state.

In my (humble) opinion it would be better for all Christians to concentrate on the empty tomb, representing the risen Jesus and conqueror over death and sin, rather than the cross, representing the pain and suffering that He had to endure on our behalf. Personally I prefer to avoid crosses for this reason.

However I also understand that that is what brings many people to understand Jesus and His ministry for them, so whichever is suitable - if Jesus is THE person to whom our worship belongs, then continue.

This said - I still don't get the connection of this Gospel from the validity of Moroni.

In respect of other's views and opinions,

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Moroni ( as a golden statue )

Latter-Day James said...

The beauty of belonging to the Restored Church of Jesus Christ (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) is this....continuing revelation from our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ through modern days prophets (Currently Gordon B. Hinckley) and the Restoration of HIS Holy Priesthood along with the rights to perform baptism, bless the sick, along with other sacred ordinances.

Along with this revelation I am sure the Lord has inspired the prophets as to what some of the Temple architecture should include or has received confirmation of their designs.

The Lord loves all of His children. He does not want us to fail. We are given every opportunity and instruction to succeed. Even the ones that have passed without those sacred ordinances are given the opportunity to accept them after death with work done for them in the Temple.

Moroni faces East awaiting our Redeemer's second coming.
Moroni the angel that helped restore the Fullness of the Gospel upon this Earth.

We cannot show you Moroni in the Bible for he is in the Book of Mormon. This may not be good enough for you but it for one plus millions more (and growing)that know and have witness of the divinity of those scriptures.

Please do not insult my testimony and witness of my Church.

teranno4x4 said...

Dear LD James,

There is no insult intended, nor any ill feeling toward your testimony or choice of belief. I only ask you to enter into a careful consideration.

If God is consistent, never changing, Divine and omnipitent, why did he not clearly define the mission of the authenticity for this so defined 'heavenly being' if it was to be so important? And why do you feel the need to have it erected on the highest place ? If Jesus is the head of your church, why is it not His magnificent frame that adorns your temple ? Surely He IS greater than Moroni ?

As for the dead - when they are dead they know nothing - they are asleep. This can be clearly defined from OT and NT.

As for facing east, doesn't this belong to the pagan Eastern religions of the world ? Whenever God's kingdom is discussed in Biblical terms it is always as established in the North. If this is accepted as TRUTH, who is Moroni facing in the east ?

One final question for you - remember the temptations of Jesus ?
The final two were borne out of the 'dominion rights' that satan had deceived out of Adam and Eve. The 2nd takes place on the utmost pinnacle of the Temple in Jerusalem and satan told Jesus to throw Himself off to prove His Divinity and authority over the angels. The last and final temptation was the critical one regarding dominion.

As Jesus is our Creator, isn't the dominion over the world pre-established as Divinely His. From the texts in Matthew 4 - evidently not. What a marvel then that part of the plan of redemption was to regain that dominion, not through war or supernatural struggle but through His love for each one of us ?

Look at the words of Jesus Hiself in verse 10 from the high mountain: " Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. "

With all the evidences that I have presented in the previous message, linked with this message, I still choose to worship God as instructed by Jesus to even satan himself.

Together with these additional emphases on worship and dominion don't you believe that it is important to get your Biblical facts straight before anything else that you believe ?

Again in brotherly love and with respect,

Teranno4x4

Latter-Day James said...

Trust me, careful consideration has been taken.

Why hasn't God defined it? See previous statement about ongoing revelation.

Don't you remember that Christ will come from the East during the Second Coming? Or do non-Mormon Christians not believe this? Why is Christ not on top of the very highest spire? Or on top of any spire of ours? I can't say for sure except that I think it is in reverence and that because we hold Christ as being very sacred to us. But like I said, I am not sure. Of course Christ is Higher than us all, there is no doubt. I think this is stretching on some peoples part to prove idolatry.

We believe the dead to be dead in the flesh but not in Spirit. They await the Second Coming in what we call the Spirit World teaching those that do not have the truth the Gospel while we do their work for them in Temples so that they may choose to receive them.

I do not know if I have answered all of the points you have made but I must go to work. I guess it comes down to a witness once again. If you have one of the Book of Mormon then the rest falls into place.

dave d said...

Terrano,

My impression of your comments is that your posts are intended to stir up the pot. Your comments are condemning of LDS beliefs without trying to reach out beyond your own worldview (underlying assumptions) and truly understand why other rational and faithful people might believe how they do. You seem to dismiss all beliefs that do not fit within your own interpretation or worldview as Satanic. You try to use scripture to justify your worldview. Those same passages of scripture could also condemn your own beliefs with another rational and valid interpretation by faithful followers of Christ with a different worldview than yours.

I take particular issue with three items in your comments that condemn without trying to understand. The first, of course, is your insistence that a statue is worshipped by the LDS people. This is simply not true. The whole focus of a temple is on worship of Jesus Christ. Please try to understand what the LDS really think/feel/worship before openly condemning them based a first impression that is jaded by your own worldview.

Second, you claim to have explored literal and symbolic meanings, context, original language and prophetic understanding on the subjects on which you speak and imply that Mormanity has not. While I cannot speak for him, I have the impression that he is at least equally as well read and well thought out in his beliefs and tries to understand the interpretations and worldviews of others. Also, I assume that when you say “prophetic understanding” that you are talking about prophetic commentaries on earlier biblical revelations. The LDS are particularly clued into this additional aid in understanding the scripture as they believe that God has not changed and continues to communicate to prophets as long as someone will listen.

Thirdly, and this may be nitpicking, but in a previous post, you commented: “The BOM tells me to 'ponder it in your hearts', - the Bible tells me 'love the Lord thy God with all thine heart' So if I follow the Bible request, there should be no room in my heart for anything else.” To me, this seemed a knee-jerk, I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong response that didn’t try to understand the meaning behind the phrase. I could return the favor and ask if there is any room in your heart to love your parents/spouse/children or any room for independent thinking? Such reactionary comments give the impression that you are only posting comments to stir up trouble and not trying to really understand what others say. Please try to understand first – I think that is what Mormanity meant when talking about the dangers of assuming one’s opinion is the will of God. Our interpretations are based on our underlying worldviews. If that were not so, there would not be such a wide variety of Christian beliefs that are all biblical and are sometimes at odds with each other. The LDS worldview (I use that term a lot here – maybe I should find a thesaurus) is to look to continuing communication with heaven to try and understand things as they really are. You may or may not agree that this is a good approach, but please at least allow it and try to understand it.

Josh said...

Teranno4X4,

Thank you for your thoughtful post in response to a question I asked you in another thread. I can understand and respect your perspective, even though it is different from mine. I have to say that I don't necessarily appreciate being accused of bowing to Lucifer, especially when, in all sincerity, I am striving to worship, love and serve the true and living God and his Beloved Son with all my heart. I also, in all respect, find it interesting that you I can read the same verses of scripture that you've cited and come to different conclusions. How are we to decide who is right without resorting to an unproductive shouting match where we end up making unjustified assumptions about each other's intentions and sincerity? I assure you that I'm as comfortable in my reading of the scriptures you cite as you are in yours.

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe that God can speak to Man or give revelations today. As I said before, the same justifcation for the angels on the Ark of the covenant that you gave ('if God wanted it in his design, who are we to question it?') could justify the LDS use of Moroni on the temple. Additionally, shouldn't the same understanding and benefit of the doubt you give to the ancient Israelites (they clearly weren't bowing or praying to the angels, they were bowing and praying to God) be extended to Mormons (I promise you we aren't worshipping Moroni or bowing to him in the Temple) as a matter of courtesy?

In the end, I suspect you and I will simply have to agree to disagree on this, and perhaps many other issues. Hopefully we can do so without making malicious assumptions about each other's motivations. I respect your sincerity and devotion to Christ, and would hope you'd return the favor. In any event, there's so much good that people of faith can do in this world, regardless of whether we agree on details of doctrine. Shouldn't we work together for good and pray that the Savior will be merciful to both of us, regardless of who may have erred in understanding?

Respectfully,
Josh

teranno4x4 said...

Dear LD James,

My Biblical understanding is that in the Second Coming, He will come from the clouds and that every eye will see Him. He will descend with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trump of God. I have read nothing about the East - please help me on this point ? One key factor is that his feet will not touch the earth !

Any other manifestation in the name of Christ other than the above will be false and satanic in origin. See Matt 24.

The angel moroni adorning your temple is still a graven image whichever way you look at it. If your denomination felt the need to commemorate this celebrative reminder of your faith, why not mount it in the centre of the artificial lake / pond and not on your place of worship ?

However you feel about it I can not get around God's own instruction with His own hand. If Moses had interpreted it as part of the ceremonial law, then OK yes artistic licence could be applied as this was written by a man. But this is not the case here. It blatantly is a creation of man's hand in the image of a supposed 'heavenly being' (whether or not it has wings) which God has directly warned against in writing. It doesn't make me comfortable for you - I'm sorry.

When you refer to spirits, please use a small 's'. There is only one Spirit that is deserving of a capital 'S' and He is Holy. Again I disagree with this Biblically, but again it is respectful as I already understand your difference.

Any reply for my answer to you ref the symbol of the cross ?

----------------

Dear Dave D,
The original topic was intended to stir up the pot. I quote from Mormanity : "But as one commenter has charged, the word of God forbids making graven images, and so by using statues or any other images associated with our temples or churches, we are in clear violation of the word of God."

Who was he targetting, knowing that I would respond and be targetted en-mass ? Well as I am representing the Biblical God and believe through my own Rock-solid testimony of faith, bring it on..... please educate me where you can slam my own belief based on the very texts that I have used . Maybe we will have an Elijah on Mount Carmel experience here - I will certainly be praying for it !

My own worldview on LDS, your temples or your worship is not jaded. As I explained in another topic, I have spent many months relating to your beliefs and trying to fathom how logical they are mathematically compared with the Biblical doctrines of truth that I hold dear.

I will also repeat another comment that I have made before. I am not here to condemn, as this right is held only by our dear Saviour - Jesus Christ and no other. BUT I do have the right to question and if I am not mistaken, that is exactly what I am doing.

It is clear from my exchanges with Jeff / Mormanity, that whilst he is clearly highly intellectual, eloquent and well balanced in mental agility, he may be naiive in matters outside of the LDS faith. Mainstream Chritianity may have knocked on his door from the High Church or the Catholic pursuasion, or he may have held theological intercourse with Christian sects like Jehovah's Witnesses or Mooneys - I don't know his past or his study. One prejudiced matter that is clear to me is that he makes a huge presumption about my own knowledge of scripture and believes that he can tie me up in Biblical knots or claim that anyone can turn various texts into their own interpretation or meaning. If the true God is leading me - am I likely to fail and fall ?

As you can clearly see above, my efforts were not of any kind of Spiritual gymnastics, nor were they just pulled like a rabbit out of a hat. My words were particularly chosen to challenge but not to offend, to query, but not to insult and finally to open, not close meaningful dialogue. If you read into my comments something else, then I apologise forthright as no malice was nor is intended. There were many other texts that I could have used in defence of my claims, but how long a message am I allowed in a post? An attack broadside by Jeff is fair on his own controlled site, but even moreso is the right to reply that he has graciously bestowed ! Thank-you in this instance - I hope that you can glean my meaning from my comments and can come to a final conclusion that I can not be accused of 'cherry picking' for doctrine as you wrongfully accuse.

If LDS believe that God has not changed, ie. sanctified the Sabbath at creation, sanctified it again and requested us to make it holy in the 10 Commandments, kept each one through Jesus life and Ministry even in death on the cross - why is it not kept by the LDS denomination who choose to keep the first day of the week, the day of the resurrection. Please tell me when God changed it. (An answer that a prophet / man was granted authority to change it will not suffice).

In answer to your 'nit-picking' question to me, if my heart is filled with the presence of God following my complete love for Him - isn't that simply the catalyst for Him to direct my path in all diligence and love for my spouse/children/parents ? Isn't He going to stimulate my mind into thinking on Heavenly dimensions, not restrictive sinful earthly ones - exatcly as Jesus was lead by the Spirit throughout His life here with us ? Isn't this the crux of all understanding ? I am sorry but worldviews, LDS worldviews, other denominational worldviews, theological council majorities, confederacies and even my own opinions (yes those too), pale into complete insignificance if the one true God is 100% present in my heart and mind. I have not interpreted - I presented God's own unchanged handiwork to stimulate this topic.

Trying to communicate with heaven is simply not good enough. We already have the assurance that it can be easily maintained. Our assurance is Jesus Christ and our guiding light and Comforter is the Holy Spirit. Through Him all things are possible.

--------------------

Dear Josh,
Thank you for taking the time to attempt understanding the points I was making respectfully and in all sincerity.

Please explain your comfort zone of - "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above," with regards to the statue on a place of worship ? Please use either the verse alone or together with my other comments....

Please don't strive to love God. Invite Him fully into your heart and mind and He will guide your every step. This is true faith that will deliver a change in attitude and character that you never imagined possible. It will also deliver natural works of great magnitude. Get to know Him daily from the Bible and you will be so in-tune that many old habits of bondage to sin will appear totally alien. I know - he helped me and continues helping me in breaking them. I too was trying my best, but it wasn't good enough. God assists where we can not achieve. This is faith - but first we must truly want to know Him.

Josh - I know of you, but I don't really know you. The same applies to most of us with regards to God. But he knows us all too well - and still is waiting to assist our call for help.

Benefit of the doubt I could grant to you if there was not the added critical point of the 'high place'. Either someone with a hidden agenda knew exactly what they were doing or it was accomplished mistakenly on the very highest point of the temple - in the same context as Jesus' third temptation. Only Jesus isn't standing there represented - an angel is.

Take it down and place it inside a doorway, by a hymn board, on the other side of Utah in the middle of a field if it is simply an ingenious work of art. If you personally or collectively as LDS disagree with this then you too may be guilty of holding the object of the angel in too high an esteem, which is idolatry simplified.

I fully accept and understand that there are probably millions of quite devout LDS members worldwide whose sincerity can not be questioned and who would be just as aghast at the query made in this post. However the fact remains that the topic is open and discernment needs to be pondered over without a pre-conceived stand-point and defensive return.

I use Biblical scripture in questioning. I am answered with rhetorical reasoning.

I would not assume your personal motivation, sincerity or devotion as I also stated above. I simply have a desire to understand the 'need' for an angel in that very position. Is it necessary for your building of worship or your salvation ? If yes - then why ? There is nothing malicious about my comments and they are in harmony with God's own words and course of action against the setting up of idols / high places.

We can agree to disagree and we can be prayerfully supportive of each other's endeavours for humanitarian development and the salvation of many lost who are currently living in this world full to the brim, of sin.

In this world of darkness, He will see us shine - you in your small corner and I in mine!

Teranno4x4

adamite said...

For those who are interested here is a website on LDS temples with pictures... http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/
I checked out some temples and did you know that some temples do not have the angel moroni on it? does this mean that we can only go to these temples because there is no statue on it? And did you know that there are no pictures of Christ or crosses or any kind of symbol in our main chapel room or on our buildings? Again, there is a big difference between the idol worshipers of the Old Testament and having a statue on our temple. If we worshiped Moroni or any other prophet we would have them in every building we use. We have some pictures in our hallways and offices but we are instructed not to have anything in our chapel room or on our buildings. This distracts us from focusing on what is being taught by the Holy Spirit. Believe what you want we are not idol worshipers or misguided by the devil. I believe in a living God and if there are any false teachings being spread around in this Church He will take care of it in His own way as He has in the past. This is a never ending argument. Until everyone will accept what we believe is what we believe it will never stop.

Latter-Day James said...

I will not comment on your misspelling of Moroni if you don't comment on my misspelling of Spirit.

Seems like you used a capital "S" when not referring to Christ as well,here is yours
"clearly see above, my efforts were not of any kind of Spiritual gymnastics".

Here is mine

"We believe the dead to be dead in the flesh but not in Spirit. They await the Second Coming in what we call the Spirit World teaching those that do not have the truth the Gospel while we do their work for them in Temples so that they may choose to receive them."

How is that different? My first instance may not have needed to be capitalized but the second is a place; as in a person, place, or thing or what is called a Proper noun. So that needed to be capitalized for sure. What about your not capitalizing Moroni? That is a name. Shouldn't that be capitalized or was that an effort to belittle one of our beliefs again?

Any other grammar lessons for me? :-)

What you said about the cross I agree with.

The out of the East question? I had to look it up. It is something I learned. Maybe Matthew 24:27?

Mormanity said...

Comments generally should be brief. Lengthy essays - especially when they become sermons not clearly related to the topic of the original post - often are not appropriate.

Jeff Lindsay said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lars said...

Terrano: thank you for giving us the benefit of a doubt in our sincerity. We Mormons tend to get awfully defensive when we're accused of worshiping anyone but God, and for that I think I can speak for everyone in offering heartfelt apologies for misunderstanding your intentions.

Back on topic, I do notice that your application of how to apply the 2nd Commandment is just that: your application of how to live it. You ask us to "show me in the Bible," I think it's only fair that you apply the same rigor to your statements. Reading the scriptures you cite, I didn't see anything saying "Thou shalt put thy artwork inside a doorway or by a hymn board but not on the top of the buildings." True, there were idols torn down from the high places, but which was the cause and which was the effect-- were they being worshiped simply because they were in a high place, or were they put in a high place because they were being worshiped? I didn't see any explanation of that in those scriptures. Jesus was at the top of the temple, but was that intended as a commandment or was it just included as part of the narrative? I feel like I'm being nit-picky, but my point is to emphasize that even though the commandment is very clear-cut, there may be other explanations behind the scriptures you cited.

We don't worship Moroni. If you don't want to take our word for it, come visit our worship services someday. You don't need to participate, just watch and see how much we do or do not bow down before graven images.

(Mormanity, was that brief enough?)

Latter-Day James said...

If you are addressing me Jeff then I am am sorry. Usually I am not so wordy.

Mormanity said...

No, Latter-day James, I was not. Thank you for your helpful posts! Length has been appropriate.

Darion Alexander said...

Just out of curiosity, wasn't the Bible written by man? From God to prophet, then from prophet to paper, papyrus, etc? Wasn't the Bible originally written in Hebrew Aramaic or Greek? Then later translated into Vulgate Latin, then from there to Latin, then to other languages? Wasn't it put together by a group of "Bishops" and "Holy" men from the many branches of Christianity and Constantine? So it's infallible right? So am I amiss to say that one cannot depend entirely on the Bible itself as it was written by men, compiled by men and translated by men? I guess we could go further and say that All Scripture is fallible as it is/was written by man? So if we wanted to further rationalize, couldn't we say that the commandment written on the Stone Tablets, about graven images, etc. are the only Real versions of the commandments that I should follow as it was written by the Hand of God? Should I try to find them? And who could verify that they are the originals? At least, that's what the Bible suggests...right?

Anonymous said...

Darion, please don't tell me you want the original stone tablets with graven characters on them. Some folks around here might think you're into idolatry (LDS style, anyway).

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Mormanity,
Apologies for my previous lengthy explanations - I realise that comments need to be shortened - but evidences of truth need to be provided if contrary to your original post's interpretation.

I appreciate your tolerance for my opposition and I hope that you found my comments helpful too.

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Dear LD James,
Lighting from east to west is simplified as filling the whole of the sky, as will Jesus and His angelic host on His return. It does not support the notion that Jesus will return from the east. As I said before, I understand this to be a false doctrine born out of pagan Eastern religions.

Just to confirm, it was deliberate that I used the grammar in the way that I did. It was to show my appreciation of the Holy Spirit and to place moroni in non-godly form as I see it. It was not done to incite you, but to show non-deity status for purpose of this post

Question for you - spirit world - does this differ from the one accessed by mediums or spiritualists (who are condemned in the Bible and considered evil) ?

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Lars,
As I understand (correct me if I am wrong) this discussed statue of an angel is adorned on top of the main LDS place of worship in Utah, USA. It is one of the main attractions for visitation by LDS members worldwide, (a type of 'mecca' for pilgimage).

But the statue in the 'highest place' IS NOT important ? I asked this question before - cynical, or a deliberate hidden agenda ?

What about the new-age symbols surounding the doorways - are you aware of their status / meanings ? Also of no significance to so-called true worshippers entering in ?

Taken together, I can only see a big red danger sign.

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Darion / Anonymous,

Choose yourselves if you prefer not to obey the writing from God's own finger, based that you can not see the originals contained in the Ark of the Covenant. I can assure you that Moses immediately understood their reverence and importance, copying them for the people to freely read.

As I stated above in previous comments - all 10 are a direct transcript of God's character, manifest in flesh with Jesus Christ. Maybe you don't believe in Him either then ? If Jesus kept them all to the letter of the law - why shouldn't you....?

If you choose to find faults with the Bible, then go ahead they can be found. It was written by sinful man, but under inspiration by the Holy Spirit to be maintained for all eternity as a record of truth. In it by prayerful study, you may find the Golden Thread of Truth that runs from Genesis to Revelation. In this you will find no error in any form as it will lead you to a clear understanding of the very dwelling place and character of God.

Read it for yourselves and see !

Teranno4x4

Latter-Day James said...

Terrano
What do you mean, you understand it to be false doctrine? Does it say that in the Bible? Pagan influence?

Moroni is still a name. (You correct my grammar and I correct yours)

Since I don't worship Moroni I am not terribly offended. Still a proper noun though. You addressed me as LD James. Not ld james. Seems like you know that rule. I still maintain my stance that you are trying to offend by that.

Spirit world. This is the place where your spirit resides while waiting for the Second Coming, Final Judgement, things like that. A "waiting" place where much teaching has and is still taking place.

Mediums contacting people there? No idea. (Was that another subtle shot at our beliefs again?) We don't cover that type of thing in Sunday school. (Note caps on Sunday. Proper noun again.)

teranno4x4 said...

Dear LD James,
I can assure you that my use of English is qualified and that the deliberate use of denounced proper nouns was intended only for the purpose of the comment - without offence. How you wish to incite it is entirely up to you, but I maintain that moroni (Moroni if it makes you happy) is not deity, so I will denounce the name to emphasise the fact.

False doctrine - one that can not be Biblically proven to be correct in teaching. Since there is no basis or evidence to prove which direction Jesus will come from in the sky, it is a doctrine either borne out of man's hear-say or out of tradition, which again is apostacy from God's instruction.

Spirit world - I don't know what you have been taught or where, but this is distinctly a 'new-age' teaching (entering the age of aquarius and all that). One where the spirit lives on and on (theme tune for Titanic springs to mind) and can never die. This distinctly is not Biblical and does not conform to the Biblical or even Jesus' own view for understanding the state of the dead. With reference to all the 'spirit' (little s) that one can find in the Bible - these are simply talking about one's own attitudes or characteristics, not a ghostly kind of 'transcendent' apparition.

Who do the mediums and spiritualists contact then ? Why do you believe or accept teaching in such a place when it is not Biblical ? Again - who do you follow if you do not believe the same as Jesus ?

Latter-Day James said...

Ok on the false doctrine topic, Is this where the Bible was translated incorrectly at one point or another? What is to say that Jesus is not coming from the East?

I am not much of a scriptorian so forgive me. So when a person dies where does his/her spirit go? Does it get destroyed? No of course not because it is eternal. What happens to it?

I am not sure where in the Bible the Spirit world is spoke of. I really don't. But it is spoken of in modern day revelation.

I got this from the LDS.org site.

"The scriptures teach that at the time of physical death, the spirit does not die. It separates from the body and lives in the postmortal spirit world. At the time of resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the body, "never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal" (Alma 11:45)."

"The scriptures also teach about the nature of spirits. Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord revealed that "all spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes" (D&C 131:7). The Lord also revealed that "the spirit of man [is] in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created" (D&C 77:2; see also Ether 3:7–16). "

See why modern day revelation is needed? To teach the full truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

adamite said...

If there are no spirits and spirit world where did Jesus go to preach to the spirits in prison after he died? 1 peter 3:19. And how do you explain this verse? 1 Peter 4:6 It seems to me he is talking about people that have physically died if not then why judge them as if they were in the flesh? I read somewhere that Christ had to go to the spirit prison while he was a spirit to release them from prison, and I learned this before I joined the Church. If there are no spirits how do you explain Christ giving up the Ghost on the cross? And how about these verses Acts 23:8,9? Why say spirit when if he meant a man's attitude? There are numerous verses in the bible that seem to show a difference between flesh and spirit. Maybe you should reconsider your belief system before you take on ours. You are not going to win with these line of arguments.

Latter-Day James said...

Thanks adamite, like I said I don't know where this stuff is.

teranno4x4 said...

Dear LD James and Adamite,

What kind of winning are you talking about ? Is there something at stake for either of you ? If the spirit world is so great a stepping stone - then die today and come back in your spirit to tell us what it's like! Not interested in that option - didn't think so, it doesn't really appeal to most people's logic patterns.

My faith and belief is Rock solid and built on Jesus Christ and is without question.

Wow you must really be nervous in your own beliefs to be so attack minded and vilified towards my questions that you choose to completely ignore them. I have nothing personally to be responsible to defend as I have my assurance fixed in Jesus and Him alone. No spirit world enters my thoughts at all.

In terms of Jesus' Second Coming, seeing as His feet will not touch the earth, the sky will be FULL of His angelic host - it will not be a quiet or secret affair. Will it matter if it is from the east / west / north or south? If it is from the east I will seek your pardon in the Kingdom when we get there!

Answer my questions honestly and I will reply in turn with the BIBLICAL answers that you ask of me.

That is how topical discussion takes place. Should you wish to discuss the 'spirit world' teachings further either ask Mormanity / Jeff to host this as a new topic or alternatively e-mail me at teranno4x4@yahoo.com

Loving Christian thanks,

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

By the way - God is from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus is God.

So from the Old Testament and the New Testament can we not have sufficient evidence of God and His Divine Loving Character.

Why DO you feel the need for a modern day revelation that is not consistent with the Bible or it's teaching. What better evidence is there of Jesus and His Ministry on earth than can be found in in the four Gospels ?

Is there maybe some idolatry for your doctrines that supercedes the purpose of the Gospel message to be taught to the whole world - Matt 28:19,20?

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

I DONT KNOW OF ANYTHING TALKING ABOUT JESUS RETURNING IN, OR FROM THE EAST. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, MORONI FACES EAST BECAUSE THATS WHERE THE SUN RISES. THE SIMBOLISM IS THAT EACH MORNING THE SUN RETURNS TO ILLUMINATE THE DARKNESS OF NIGHT AND BRING LIGHT TO THE WORLD, JUST AS THE SON WILL RETURN, DESTROY THE DARKNESS OF SIN AND BRING LIGHT TO THE WORLD. MORONI IS SIMPLY HERALDING THE RETURN OF THE SUN/SON.

HOWS THAT FOR GRAMMAR

Latter-Day James said...

Teranno

referring to comments at August 29th

1. I am not trying to win anything.

2. Who said I wanted to die and go to the Spirit World? Of course when I die I will.

3. Not nervous at all.

4. I did not ignore any of your questions intentionally. Could it be that you just didn't like my answers?

5. Now you ask "why does it matter?". I was just answering YOUR question as to why Moroni faces East on the Lord's Temples.

6. Answer honestly? Are you insinuating some dishonesty on mine or another's part?

7. The Lord obviously feels the need for modern day revelation. That's why he called modern day prophets such as Joseph Smith up to Gordon B Hinckley. Not only is there precious evidence in the Bible but Another Testament of Christ that is found in the Book of Mormon.

8. Do I worship my doctrines? ummm weird question, I worship my Heavenly Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, I am a member of His Church.

Jeff can you start a new blog perhaps? Sorry for the topic jumping.

adamite said...

Here is a website I just found. Who can answer these questions without modern day revelations?
http://www.moroni10.com/Questions/Christian_Theist.html

Jeff: Have you thought about starting a forum so that we can have more lengthy discussions on various topics?

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anonymous,

At least you have a sense of humour.

However it is sad that you describe so well how Christianity is marred and compromised to pagan ritual. What you highlight is non other than explicit sun worship as has been done for centuries by many other pagan religions. 'Symbolism' is not enough to distance yourself from the condemnation of your own words. Thanks for pointing out the presence of idolatry that Jeff despises, so well - and in capitals - well done - top marks !

LD James
I am sorry but you go around and around and blatantly have ignored or chosen to gloss over the key points in my previous comments. Look for all the question marks in my previous comments...You prefer to look at grammer rather than meaning or content.

The Bible says that the sky will be full of Jesus and His angelic host, and you point out my words 'what will it matter'. If the sky is FULL, then N / S / E & W will be full too - so I only ask the question after the sky is full!! That is the very point - more importantly that this is the very time of our realisation for salvation. Again, if I am wrong - I will ask your pardon in the Heavenly Kingdom.

I was nonsensically aksing you to die so that you could be the very pioneer to prove to all the existence of the very place (spirit world) that you believe in. Of course I had the foreknowledge that this concept would not have any appeal. Neither does it hold any credence for me after I pass away naturally / un-naturally in my time.

I believe in Heaven, but it's doors will not be open to anyone until Jesus comes to take them home. The state of the dead is that they simply 'sleep' This is how Jesus Himself referred to both Lazarus and Jairus' daughter after they had both passed away. They did not possess the spirits that you identify, so any alternative Testament that you pertain to is not consistent with the record of the four Gospels SHOUTING about the mission and ministry of Jesus here on earth. His visit here was the first coming, His return will be the Second Coming. Why do you believe in other manifestations that are not described Biblically ? Isn't this deception - even though it is your own claim that it is from God?

Honesty - no there is no insinuation. To answer honestly I ask you to review my comments and note all my questions - not cherry pick / nit pick the ones that you like the look of.

Still respectfully,

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Adamite,

I am happy to stand up for God and attempt to answer any questions that you have.

Ask away here (if in topic) or e-mail me if not.

I only ask that you consider the validity and Biblical reasoning that is bound not to be on par with what you have been told from your position of faith.

Thanks,

Teranno4x4

Latter-Day James said...

Teranno

I guess it can be difficult say exactly it will look like to us. As far as the angelic host filling the sky, I can live with that, but I guess Christ will have to appear to come from some direction. Maybe the East? We shall see.

I don't know if we need another pioneer for the Spirit world. There have been countless stories by those that have passed and come back telling of spirits they spoke to and have seen in some "place". I believe this place to be the Spirit world.

The Spirit world is not Heaven or some sort of final place we aspire to. It is a place for those who have not been taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ yet to be taught and given a choice to receive it. It is also the place where one waits for the Second Coming and the Resurrection.

I believe in other manifestations because I have received a witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Since I believe it to be true I don't think it is deceptive.

dave d said...

I don't understand this idea that there is no consciousness between death and Christ's return/the resurrection (at least that is what I understand you are saying terrano4x4). Is this similar to the doctrine taught by Jehovah's Witnesses (as I understand it) that there is no existence between death and resurrection and that God recreates all of us, including our consciousness at the resurrection?

First, on the matter of the dead "sleeping". In both Mark 5:39 and Luke 8:52, Jesus says about Jairus' daughter that she "is not dead, but sleepeth." This seemingly makes a distinction between the two. However, in John 11, Jesus first tells His disciples that "Lazarus sleepeth" and when they were confused, He tells "them plainly, Lazarus is dead", thus equating the two. I can see where the confusion could come in here. Is "sleeping" referred to here as a dream-like state, a state of no consciousness, or just that sleeping and death can have a similar appearance initially to those left behind?

A couple more biblical verses on this subject. 1 Peter 4:6 says, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1 Peter 3:18-19 states, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins ... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah" Both of these passages refer to Christ preaching to those already dead. If spirits could in no way be related to us as humans but were something completely different, then maybe the second passage wouldn't apply. But these were the spirits of those mortals that rejected Noah's preaching and subsequently died. Can someone receive preaching when they don't exist/have no consciousness? Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "sleeping".

One last biblical scripture chain. Deut. 34:5 "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD." 1 Cor. 15:22-23 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming." Finally, Matthew 17:1-3 "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: .... And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him."

As I understand these passages, Moses died. Christ is the first to be resurrected. But before the resurrection of Christ, Moses appeared to Christ, Peter, James, and John and talked with them. Again, maybe I don't understand what you mean by "sleep" when talking about the dead.

If this comment is too long, Jeff, please delete it.

Global said...

Terrano....

Just to be clear, you are accusing Latter-day Saints of worshiping Moroni? Even in the face of complete denial that such is the case?

Discussing the other points you bring up is likely useless if you think we equate Moroni with God. We believe Moroni was a prophet like Isaiah and then, after his death, an angel. Not God. Do you think we believe something different?

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Global,

Regarding your belief, this is something that I would expect to be a personal experience based on an idividual's growth in Jesus, not a collective, otherwise I will suspect a mass brainwashing scam.

If you have various fundamental beliefs for your denomination then please pardon the above comment if what you refer to falls under that category. These are some of the differences I am trying to learn about.

Nowhere in all Biblical scripture is it mentioned that a Human Being can transcend to take on the form of an angel whether as a living entity or as a dead shell. The Bible explicitly tells us paraphrased that the angels long to look into events that have taken place on planet earth (1 Peter 1:12). Why would the angels desire to look into things if they already know from some personal experience what has happened here on the earth? Its a bit of a contradiction isn't it ?

My claim is that I believe that the majority of honest and faithful LDS would not choose to worship moroni (Moroni for LD James!). However I can not accept that a golden (symbolic of purity obviously) statue of an angel that faces east (exposed so beautifully as pagan sun worship by Anon (2:22 PM, August 29, 2007 ) is either accidental or coincidental, especially when taken into context with the other pagan / masonic symbols on and around the outer door frames / walls of the same building.

Originally, someone in your denomination knew exactly what they were doing for their part in this worship setting, so no account of excuses under symbolism or any other reasons can bring you away from the first and second commandments regarding idolatry. Personally I see it as a conflict against God's own handiwork, but still you will not find me condemning you - only disagreeing.

In addition as I have stated before - there are many other instances where we can all be guilty of idoatry if we put anything before or higher in priority regarding our relationship with God. This can even include your spouse or family, animate or inanimate or even the tangible or intangible!

Extreme care needs to be taken in every way.

Give God all our glory not just a large portion.

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Dave D / LD James,

I will only say on this occasion that any 'manifestation' can also be demonic in origin.

The 'spirit world' is going off topic and should not really be discussed on this post in respect to Jeff's wishes for his site. If you want to discuss this further please e-mail me (see earlier comment) and I will be happy to answer Biblically.

Or wait until Jeff broaches this topic himself.

Respectfully,

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Dear NM,

You've been a bit quiet recently. Are you still around?

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Global,

Please allow me to put my comments into a slightly clearer perspective from a personal point of view. Currently the denomination that I belong to doesn't accept any graven images whatsoever (art, pictures, decoration are a different topic altogether before you head off there!). Let's stay with graven images. As Paul was one of the leading apostles and major contributor to the NT that we have today, what would you or I think if his statue suddenly appeared on the highest point of my own local church, not facing east - but his finger pointing to where somebody believes Heaven to be in the sky ? You may think that this could be acceptable - I don't and my ongoing membership would clearly be in doubt.

Is there any difference if we changed Paul's statue for a gold image of Mary perhaps. Or maybe a golden calf, or maybe even an attempted gold replica or the ark of the covenant. - No the resultant apostacy would still be the same in my eyes.

Thank God that this is only hypothetical and highly unlikely to occur, but maybe this illustrates my thinking further.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

And so, Terrano4x4, what do you think of Solomon putting "graved images" pf cherubim all over the temple? Or making giant statues of cherubim? And what about the golden cherubim status in the Tabernacle? Shouldn't it be clear that a symbol or image per se is not what God condemns, but the worship of it? Isn't that the only way to resolve this issue? Aren't you being non-biblical in your condemnation of others for that which was approved in the Old Testament?

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anonymous,

Your questions I have answered already in a previous comment :
" At 4:45 PM, August 22, 2007, teranno4x4 said... "

You can find it above...

OK - yes I agree with you - as I also did above, symbols and statues may also be works of art. But what about when those works of art become valuable to an individual, either monitarily or in sentimentality. What focus will they be in a person's life, deflecting thoughts away from God?

To me this statue on your place of worship (no less) has already received too much focus for those commenters wanting to defend it's place. Give glory to God, that is all that God asks in His commandments - is that too much to give him for each of our lives to receive salvation ?

Dear Anonymous, please also understand that I am not condemning anyone in my comments. You are free to do exactly as you please and continue in your own preferences. But I also have the right to question those practices that I have a disgreement with. How about answering those questions objectively, without immediately going on the defensive? Or perhaps the questions make you feel slightly uncomfortable knowing that they do contain points of truth ?

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
----------------
No condemnation to them in Christ Jesus, if you are in Christ Jesus you also should not receive my comments as condemnation. According to this verse you can only receive it as so if you are harbouring thoughts of guilt as a result of commiting sin?

Also in verse 2 it states that there are two laws - what are they - most Christians think that there was only one law and that it was nailed to the cross .... ?

DS said...

Where in the Bible is there mention of an angel called Moron?
Is this in the Bible, or is it one of Joseph Smiths fairy tales which he dreamed up whilst he was in the Masonic temple?
The whole thing about the angel Moron facing east reminds me of Ezekiel 8: 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
Ezekiel 14: 6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
An example of Soloman is given because he also put idols in Gods temple. Solomon also had 1000 wives and concubines. Does it mean just because he did that it was right? Of course, that was wrong. It was adultery. The Bible records both good and bad.Or shall we use that as an excuse to have more than one wife?

Darion Alexander said...

Wow, this goes on and on doesn't it? I haven't been on here in a couple of weeks and it seems that this topic just keeps going on and on. As for that comment awhile back on choosing whom to serve and all that(giving me flashbacks of Joshua) I don't take on presumptive challenges from so -called intellectual pharisees. I I was pointing out an actual historical fact, that you can't say that the Bible with all of it's Golden Thread of Truth from Genesis to Revelation, which Revelation or Apokolyps, by the way wasn't even included in the old Biblio text by the Catholic Church until MUCH later, was written by imperfect men. To state that God has shut the heavens and we are only left with the good ole B-I-B-L-E and that's all we need, is spiritual suicide and a form of Christian isolationism. I take it that Christ didn't speak to angels then while He was on earth? And I take it that during His baptism in the river Jordan that it was Christ who ascended straightway out of the water, and then He Himself descended on Himself, and then said in a loud voice "This is My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."??? What is He then Scizophrenic? And I guess Peter didn't receive any revelations or visions after Christ left, since there were no prophets after Christ since he was the greatest of all prophets and no more visions or revelations? And I take it that Paul, had the Bible in all of it's glory, in his bloodied hands as we was martyred? And then that's it? Nothing else? No voice from Heaven to lead us? No angels guiding man to all truth? No revelations or refreshing for the fulness of times? I thought God was everlasting and eternal? I thought He was a God of Miracles? Has His miracles ceased then with just the Bible? Isn't God a God of order not chaos? I thought we were to be united by faith and yet why are there so many fragments of Christianity, teaching, sometimes very different opinions on and through the very same Bible that Moses and all the prophets and apostles helped write? Spiritual suicide, to believe that Jesus the Christ offered all that He had, was and is, in one, controversial-incomplete text compiled by the many cults and scattered fragments of a once Perfect Christianity, lead by a pagan Apollo worshiper, turned Christian, for politics, Constantine. The world NEEDS more revelation, it NEEDS more angels preaching to man, and it NEEDS more holy prophets until the great work is done. And since He is Eternal, why would he stop using the same method that He has always used? Referring to Amos 2:7. But since you are a spiritual Christian man trying to save my eternal soul, I will forgive your unauthorized use of authority in asking me "whom should I choose?"

teranno4x4 said...

For those of you new to this thread - here was the comment that Darion was referring to in his 'rant' from way earlier in the discussion:
"Dear Darion / Anonymous,

Choose yourselves if you prefer not to obey the writing from God's own finger, based that you can not see the originals contained inside the Ark of the Covenant. I can assure you that Moses immediately understood their reverence and importance, copying them for the people to freely read.

As I stated above in previous comments - all 10 are a direct transcript of God's character, manifest in flesh with Jesus Christ. Maybe you don't believe in Him either then ? If Jesus kept them all to the letter of the law - why shouldn't you....?

If you choose to find faults with the Bible, then go ahead they can be found. It was written by sinful man, but under inspiration by the Holy Spirit to be maintained for all eternity as a record of truth. In it by prayerful study, you may find the Golden Thread of Truth that runs from Genesis to Revelation. In this you will find no error in any form as it will lead you to a clear understanding of the very dwelling place and character of God.

Read it for yourselves and see !

Teranno4x4 "
------------------------------
Dear Darion,

My first question in reply is - how can you nit-pick from the comments that I made above ?

Secondly what does Amos 2:7 - what does this verse have to do with this topic or discussion ?

I did not ask you to choose who to serve (Joshua stimulated or not) - I specifically asked you to choose whether or not you will obey the writing from God's own finger! There is a difference.

Why are you going 'off on one' regarding the Bible? Don't you accept it's authority as the Word of God at all ? Are you denouncing the very fact that there is a Golden Thread of Truth that passes throughout from Genesis to Revelation ? A word of caution to be careful about your answer - God is watching.

Why do you refer only to the earlier 'vulgate' translations and not to the more readily accepted and more accurately superior translations of the Bible originating frm the 'textus receptus' in which many of the original errors had been reworked. It is also proved in that an extremely close friend of mine who is of Jewish origin and obviously speaks fluent Hebrew, reads the KJV as the closest English version to his Hebrew Bible, as one of the most original accurate record in the world today. Will you also refute that statement of FACT?

I would like to restate that I said "I believe in Heaven, but it's doors will not be open to anyone until Jesus comes to take them home." I would like to re-emphasise it's doors will not be open to anyone else - Human - until Jesus comes to take them home. (I reserve the exemption to Enoch, Moses and Elijah in this instance).

There is no Biblical record that Jesus spoke to any heavenly loyal angels whilst he was in human flesh. He did communicate directly with evil angels, demons, evils spirits and even Satan himself. Why do you use this as a motive for attack? What does that prove?

If you obviously have some concept of the Divine Godhead, why are you suggesting that Bible believing Christians like myself do not ? Where did Jesus' baptism come into question? Is it a question over His Divinity. Maybe you need to delve deeper into the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan to have more understanding yourself. It is being played out right now inside your very consciousness, maybe without you even realising!

If you can grasp the doctrines of the Bible there IS NO NEED for any other revelation. The Bible is distinctly clear on the events of this world from Jesus ascension, right up to the descending New Jerusalem and the restoration of the world to it's Creation state without the presence of any evil residue, the timeline is clear.

I don't really understand your general bigotted point other than to try and cloud an otherwise on topic discussion. All I can say is God be with you in your quest for clearer understanding. Apologies and compassion in my disagreement with you.

Teranno4x4

Darion Alexander said...

Biggoted...moi? I just enjoy playing devil's advocate. That is how debates are generally done. Whether or not I accept the Bible as the Word of God, is between me and Him...not you, but thanks for the warning...I'll take it into consideration.
True, this has pretty much nothing to do with this topic, but it was nice to veer it off on a tangent a little, because Moroni, being an angel and being placed on top of Temples, has basically nothing to do with my salvation. My Salvation is between Christ and me. But, this does give food for thought whether or not the statue Moroni or the prophet is being worshiped like unto idols. Don't feel offended nor targeted. As for the KJV of the Bible, are we talking the english version or the german version, I thought the german was better, but that's just me.
As for Christ talking to angels, see Matthew 4:11; Luke 22:43 and tell me what you think. Even better, explain the Mount of Transfiguration for me.
As for Great Controversies and such, I'll leave that to whoever feels the need for such things.
And finally, as for grasping doctrines and such throughout the Bible, explain to me why mankind ill needs to have so many fragmented sects of religion based on one sacred text? If I am a Catholic, can I not also be a Lutheran? If I am a Lutheran, why can't I be a Pentecostal? Do I not use the same Bible as everyone else? Aren't my beliefs essentially the same? Where are the differences and why do they matter? And How do they effect my salvation? Once again, this is a great post on idol worshiping, perhaps my post would be better placed into a different topic of discussion.

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Darion,

Thank you for your comments - they are far more plausibly and gently offered than the previous ones and graciously accepted as such. I can not force or coerce you into any belief or decision, but I can ask the question. Plus I do not presume or intend to come between God, Jesus, your salvation or your belief in the Bible. But, I do thank you for your consideration now from a different viewpoint which was not evident previously.

In quick reply to the verses in Matthew and Luke, 'ministering' and 'strengthening' do not adher to talking or communication. Both are in the context of healing after Jesus faced adversity. We need to consider that Jesus emptied Himself of all Divine power in order to be born as a man, but when he faced such powerful temptation directly from satan himself, that supernatural healing was necessary in order to assist Him through His ordeals to come. It most certainly wasn't to pass the time of day or chat about heavenly things as you alude to.

Mount of Transfiguration in a nutshell : Jesus - Divine as God the Son. Elijah - representing those who will be glorified as the righteous living at Christ's second coming. Moses - representing those who are the righteous dead in Christ, who are to be glorified in the first resurrection. Done for the understanding of the disciples to realise that there is more to Jesus' and His ministry than they first imagined.

Mankind doesn't 'need' to have different fragments of different religions, but the devil has done such a great job in mixing truth with error, purity with deception and God's worship with the traditions of men. Such is the resultant confusion that we have all the offshoots from truth today. Each individual must make up their own minds about how they choose to obey God and accept the salvation offered by Jesus Christ. That is the essence of the Gospel and there is only one way to the Father and our heavenly home.

Kind regards,

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Darion,

Please also read 3 John 9-12.

This explains that the earliest Christian church was in reproach due to offshoots in twisted and changed doctrine at such an early time before the end of the first century AD.

Put this (and our comments) into mind with 1 John 4:1-3 and then also 1 John 4:4-12 . I hope this also supports my comments above further.

Teranno4x4

DS said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
NM said...

Charles Russell was ALSO a freemason?! Oh boy, I didn't know that...

Darion Alexander said...

If Satan uses the tactic of divide and rule, then we can just rule out all religion then can't we? Because that would mean that all of the parts of the whole are being controlled by Satan in some form or another. Then who really then has the truth? Are we sure then that the New Testament is the accurate teachings of the Christ or has it been changed and divided by Satan? This I guess would make more sense then as to why there are so many different fragments of Christianity.

dave d said...

I find some of the explanations of what this statue represents to be silly. I hope some of the posts were done in jest. For instance, the comments about the angel statue pointing east to herald the rising of the sun/Son or because someone thinks that Christ will return from the east don't hold any water. It is probably one of those Mormon cultural "doctrines" that someone once told you that they overheard someone in authority say.

Some temples do not have this statue (Oakland, Hawaii). The first time an angel was included atop a temple was in Nauvoo as part of the decoration of the weathervane. It pointed whatever direction the wind was blowing. Many modern temples do have the statue, but they don't all point east (Dallas points south, Chicago points north).

I believe the statue is symbolic, but I think it is there to remind us of the restoration of the fulness of the gospel as predicted in Revelations. But this may be something I just heard from someone as I have never seen the official word on this.

My own opinion on why the angel statue on the Salt Lake temple points east: the statue is on the front of the temple (over the main doors) which point east as a reminder of Solomon/Zerubabel/Herod's temple pointing east. This temple in Jerusalem pointed east (doors to the east) away from Jerusalem and towards the Mount of Olives/Garden of Gethsemane in anticipation of the great Atonement that would be wrought there. I might be wrong on this, but it makes sense that if there is any symbolism in the direction, it is to point us to and remind us of Christ and his atoning sacrifice.

Darion Alexander said...

True. The whole sun/Son thing seems pretty silly to me too. But the Nauvoo temple, though it did have a weather vane, if I am not mistaken, also included masonic symbols up there? Can anyone confirm/unconfirm that for me?

Mormanity said...

DS, I just deleted your last comment for the same reason I have deleted some other comments in the past.

Offensive and absurd anti-Catholic statements, such as the claim that Catholics think those who believe in the Bible "deserve death for reading the Bible," are not welcome here. At least that's what someone with the name "DS" posted. Bad behavior.

You wouldn't happen to be using two screen names here, would you? The comments I've had to delete in the past few weeks have a strangely familiar flavor.

Lars said...

Terrano, I think you have validated my point. Your qualm is that the statue is at the highest point of the temple, but so far it still sounds like your own idea of how to live this law; the scriptures don't actually specify where artwork is or is not allowed. The scriptures do, on the other hand, say that the holiest place of the temple is not any location on the outside (including the highest point of the temple), but in fact on the inside. (Various scriptures, see for instance Exodus 26:34 or 1 Kings 8:6.)

Your comments to Darion about angels seem to follow this same pattern. It isn't clear from the scriptures that Jesus and the angels said absolutely nothing to each other, along the lines of "and Jesus spoke not a word to the angel." For whatever reason, it's just not specified exactly what sort of ministering and strengthening took place. The scriptures do, on the other hand, say that legitimate angels may indeed have valid spoken messages, at least for us mortals. (Various scriptures in the Old Testament, see also Matthew 1:20, Matthew 28:5, and pretty much the entire first half of Luke 1.)

I think Mormanity has adequately addressed the issue of "new-age symbols" etc. elsewhere in his LDS FAQ.

DS said...

Dear Mormanity

I'm not surprised that you deleted my comment. I was half expecting that. For me the main reason why you did that is because I told the truth. To say that the Catholics did not persecute Christians is just a show of ignorance. Have you read protestant history? What was the reformation all about? Are you going to deny the murder of over 60 million Christians who said they would rather believe the Bible than go along with human tradition and fairy tales? If you want to be a good boy and not upset the Catholic institution go ahead, but my God said I should warn people to come out of her, Revelation 18: 4.
Perhaps you should also read Ephesians 5: 11, which says Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of evil, but instead expose them.
Your denial of truth and the attempt to cover it up, will not succeed, for Jesus (the truth) will overcome. By the way, I am one person, I'm not pretending to be someone else.
My question about what Joseph Smith was doing in Freemasonry has still not been answered. I want to deal with facts, not opinions that are being expressed by most commentators.

Mormanity said...

Truth, DS? What are you talking about. You said the Catholic Church thinks that those who believe the Bible are worthy of death. That's insane. If you are now revising you statement to say that you mean that hundreds of years ago there were some heretics that were killed, that's a little more plausible.

DS, where do you get your history? The Reformation involved killing on both sides. But where on earth do you get the wild claim of 60 million people murdered??? There are some insane fundamentalist books out there claiming that Catholic Church vast numbers of people - often several times greater than the whole population of the countries involved - but they are based on mere bigotry and not historical fact. So where do you get this wild number?

Please note: I am asking for a specific piece of reliable documentation on your claim, not for further slander against the Catholics.

Latter-Day James said...

Mormanity:

Do you have an opinion of Moroni on most of the temples and the direction he faces? I have been told since I was young that he faced East, towards the direction Christ would come from.

Am I totally wrong here? He does face different directions (other than East) on a couple of other temples. It only makes sense that he began to placed on temples because of the original Nauvoo temple "Moroni Vane". Was I the victim of "Mormon Urban Legend"?

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Lars,
I gave my life to Jesus and out of obedience to Him, I choose to live by the 10 Commandments in my life. What am I doing wrong?
---------------------------
Dear Jeff / Mormanity,

It's interesting to read the thread that has appeared here - including your insistance to again defend the Catholics after the FACT that the DARK AGES are a piece of history and that inquisitions were a part of everyday life back then. The 'stake' was a reality - not a fast food joint!

DS is NOT assuming a second screen name (I know your train of thought) - and no - I am not he either. But I wondered when someone else in the world would also stand up for what is historical truth. I personally can not back up 60 million as DS claims, but you can be sure that martyrdom escalated to a great number over the centuries that passed.

Do you also deny that the holocaust took place in Europe c1939-1945 ? Do you know of anyone who counted the deaths of 6 million Jews ?
-------------
Dear LD James.

An angel as a weather vane ? I can not believe that you offer me comments on hear-say you have heard since you were young. I offer Biblical Truth and you discuss with childish hear-say ?

'Mormon Urban Legend' takes this post beyond the shades of pale. Jeff, these 'LDS believers' comments do not offer your original post any credibility at all.

It's almost comedy if it were not to be so true.

Yours consistently in Jesus Christ,

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Dave D,

Your last comment makes the most sense in explaining meaning in symbolism, however that explanation in itself doesn't mean that it will be accepted by God or offer excuse for the figure of a heavenly being carved out of gold. This is the very essence of what all humans were instructed NOT to do. Exodus 20:4,23

Teranno4x4

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Jeff / Mormanity,

You may like to check out this website :

http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre04historynotes.html#martyrs

Please click on the sub-topic for 'martyrs' and scroll down. One can find a table for the Dark Ages, where there are historical estimates for the numbers of deaths to support the claim of DS !
In actual fact the lesser claim of this website has the figure at over 100 million. It also includes where stated that the figure has been extracted.
Comments please - ?

Please note in advance - that I have NO affiliation or connection in operating this website. You wanted figures - I managed to find some...... (as a bonus also includes the 'prayer of Jabez' !)

Teranno4x4

Latter-Day James said...

Teranno, if I was wrong then I would like to know. Not from someone that consistently attacks my beliefs though.

I was asking an opinion from someone more learned in Christ's church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

It was a weather vane and what of it. Is a weather vane Satanic or something to that effect?

I really don't appreciate your tone and attacks on the Church. Our discussion was on whether we worship Moroni or not. We say we do not. Leave it at that. Otherwise you are calling us liars; all the while claiming "Biblical Truth" to be on your side.

I think the lack of credibility is found on your side of argument, not mine.

teranno4x4 said...

Dear LD James,

Safety in numbers is the Lemming attitude to life in general. They all tend to jump off cliffs to their deaths. Will you follow this mentality because it is becoming more clear by the comment that there seems to be some kind of brainwashing going on for you to be 'taught' or 'advised' the Truth, not stimulated to discover the Hidden Treasure for yourselves.

Look deeper into all my comments again - I do not aim to criticise - I aim to bring you out of your comfort zone and consider alternative possibilities - to which you are clearly opposed in your comments. What if I were to be right in my references back to the Bible- what then?

Teranno4x4

Latter-Day James said...

What if we are right about the Book of Mormon? I can play that game too.

Latter-Day James said...

Safety in numbers? It is the LDS people that have far less numbers on Earth then non-Mormon Christians. Trust me we are not the norm when it comes to beliefs in some areas. Is this out of the comfort zone?

I wonder if it is you that needs to consider the alternate possibilities, such as modern revelation, restored priesthood power; all that goes along with Christ's Church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Mormanity said...

Teranno, thanks for sharing your source for the claim that a particular church killed millions of people. I hope you will recognize than on such matters, merely making an assertion on a Web page is not a substitute for historically reliable data.

"The vast majority of the murders of 50-100 million Christians occurred during the Inquisitions and especially during the period after the Reformation movement of 1517.

Several religious orders were formed to crush the Reformation by force, lies and by scholarly rebuttal. With their scholarly knowledge and with their legal powers as inquisitors, they went on to exterminate hundreds of millions of Christians."


So says your source, Teachinghearts.org. Well, where did they get that information? It isn't given. Without a reference to work with, we can ask who wrote it and whether they are in a position to know. It's designed and written by a person who's info is available by a link at the bottom of the home page. That takes you to http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre00dreams.html. And that page begins with this:
I started this website in 2001. Then I started having dreams in January 2003.
I have never had dreams before. People always said that everyone has dreams and I just did not remember mine. Well, I have never had any dreams that I did not remember.

My mind has always been a blank. I attributed it to my sleep disorder.
I used to think that when I had so much responsibility that it caused my hair to start falling out in clumps that maybe I would finally have a dream out of "the multitude of business". But nothing happened. At one stage I deliberately ate late at night thinking that it should give me nightmares. But nothing happened for 46 years. When I complained to my grandmother that I do not have dreams, she said, "Then you will see visions".

Now I am having dreams in vivid color and they are about the Second Coming and natural disasters. . . .

OK, we have a sincere person trying to share her experiences on the Web. Hey, I can relate, and think that's cool. But to support a historical claim of such a shocking magnitude, I think we need something better. A real reference, perhaps?

Mormanity said...

Someone has repeatedly posted a comment here that I find insulting and inappropriate. That person's repeated bad behavior is motivating me to delete a lot of such comments from him. But there was a point in the comment: the person alleged that there are "references" to support wild claims of vast numbers killed by a particular church, but those references are nothing more than online allegations without credible support.

The questionable Website mentions "Brownlee" as the source for 60 million killed, without giving anything more to that reference. I'll fill in the blanks: that undoubtedly refers to Letters in the Roman Catholic Controversy
by William Craig Brownlee written in 1834 by an American minister with expertise in Greek and theology but not history. He was not a historian and was not providing primary data, but merely repeating or making up wild anti-Catholic claims at a time when it paid to be anti-Catholic. He might as well have said that the Catholics killed everybody on earth six times over. Would have had as much historical rigor as his claims.

People, making a wild claim in print or online does not provide a reason to accept such claims.

But this whole thread is off topic. This post is about idolatry, not persecutions of the past.

Mormanity said...

You can see Brownlee's wild claims here - on Google books.

teranno4x4 said...

Hi Jeff,

That's a great reply, but please do comment also on Voltaire and let us all know your thoughts about him too.

Also there are memorial cenotaphs around Europe, some with the names of up to 60,000 Christians who died in Catholic persecution. Add these up and you can get to some horrific numbers alone. These are recorded historically in stone.

Are these fiction too ?

Teranno4x4

--------------------------

You wanted facts - I told you where one source could be found - and online - others are available too. Take it or ignore it. Read it or scoff over it. I will not scoff at any chance that millions died as martyrs in an evil religious systematic persecution for only believing in truth. They are potential / real brothers and sisters in Jesus !

I asked you before - can you provide proof of 6 million Jews being exterminated by Germans in the second world war holocaust ? Did you personally account for each death ? How accurate or inaccurate could this figure be ? Do some people today not believe that it actually happened some 65 years ago ? Are you one of these perhaps ?

Take a close look again - and search the books for yourself. Take a tour in Europe - find out about the Waldensian group of Bible preservers and thank them for their faithfulness to God !

I think that historical truth may run deeper than you will give credit for.

Teranno4x4

StareClips.com said...

My apologies for posting to something so old, but it is a new topic for me.

If someone accused my church (or a symbol on my church's building) of idolatry, it would make more sense for me to ask for the structure to be removed and changed than to point to someone else's carving with a judgmental finger.

If said statue started bleeding one day, might there be people who fall down in worship? Also, how much reverence is needed before it is declared to be worship? Is one required to bow down before something and pray to it for it to be called worship? Or is it being worshiped already if one feels a sense of sadness or loss if that statue goes missing in the night or is damaged greatly?

Just some thoughts to ponder.

Tom M said...

I think one of the top forms of idolatry today is in Mormons looking solely to the FDA, AMA and APA (which each require no other Gods or healing be observed before them) for what is approved to "heal" them.

NO drug can heal. All doctors admit this. Though foods and the herbs of God referenced in the scriptures over can and do heal, but are ridiculed by most LDS because they are warned of and even forbidden as dangerous and evil by our idolatrous Gods (AMA, FDA, APA - D&C 89:4)

Tom M said...

Another contradiction all around us today which most LDS embrace (as prophesied...) is that most LDS politicians and LDS members do not support the most foundational LDS doctrines of agency/liberty which tie directly to Christ's constitution ("Anything more or less than this (His constitution) cometh of evil" D&C 98) yet most all LDS politicians (including Romney and Reid...) want to "force us to do good," want to "save us by forcing goodness," (oh where did that idea originate from, and didn't we all reject that good sounding fraud to get where we are today?).

Yet some of that forced goodness isn't goodness they propose to save us with is evil appearing as good. Regardless, even true goodness when forced is evil. Our constitution (actually and literally Christ's constitution) embodies His foundational principle of agency/liberty and not forcing goodness, yet who will read the extensive writings of our forefathers explaining this and explaining their true intent of the constitution, leaving no room for wishy-washy revisionist historian interpretation.

The very concepts of liberty/agency embodying our constitution were actually lifted right from the pages of the Bible.