Discussions of Mormons and Mormon life, Book of Mormon issues and evidences, and other Latter-day Saint (LDS) topics.

Monday, September 10, 2007

Noah's Flood: When the Mediterranean Sea Broke Through to the Freshwater Black Sea?

"Marine Team Finds Surprising Evidence Supporting A Great Biblical Flood" is a headline from ScienceDaily.com today:
Prof. Beer was part of the team on board "Mediterranean Explorer" that recently headed to the Black Sea off the coast of Turkey, the site where historians believe the great biblical flood occurred. EcoOcean and an international team believe they have found evidence to substantiate what is written in the Bible.

Says Weil, "We found that indeed a flood happened around that time. From core samples, we see that a flood broke through the natural barrier separating the Mediterranean Sea and the freshwater Black Sea, bringing with it seashells that only grow in a marine environment. There was no doubt that it was a fast flood -- one that covered an expanse four times the size of Israel. It might not have been Noah, as it is written in the Bible, but we believe people in that region had to build boats in order to save their animals from drowning. We think that the ones who survived were fishermen -- they already had the boats."
The flood as a local event has often been postulated by Christian and LDS scientists seeking to understand the scriptural accounts. See, for example, my discussion of science and LDS religion in my LDSFAQ section of my Website. We'll have to see if further work confirms a massive flood that once swept over a huge region of land as the Mediterranean Sea broached the barrier between it and the original freshwater Black Sea. If so, there may be many ancient settlements underwater and under silt in the Black Sea waiting to be explored. There will be many unanswered questions and ongoing difficulties in seeking to understand scriptural accounts, but let's deal with these issues one step at a time as we cautiously examine our assumptions about the text and the scientific record.

38 comments:

Mike Parker said...

Duane Jeffery discusses the Mediterranean/Black Sea incursion in his October 2004 Sunstone article "Noah's Flood: Modern Scholarship And Mormon Traditions."

Recommended reading.

Schuyler said...

I read this article Mike refers to a few months ago and found it quite interesting. I've always struggled with the global flood because it seems to present several problems. Where did the water come from and where did it all go? A local flood makes more sense and would seem to local inhabitants as "covering the whole world." Back then we didn't have FOX or CNN to provide instantaneous report about world conditions instantaneously. Scriptures were often written based upon personal experience. It does contradict the idea that the earth was baptized by being completely covered by water, but that doesn't really bother me since the Lord often leaves out details that might confuse the recipients.

At the time of Adam, the earth was coming our of an ice age. Any idea what the sea level might have been at that time? Was it low enought to provide land bridges between North America and Europe or Asia to allow Adam and Eve to be driven out of the garden of Eden or in other words, the promised land to Mesopotamia?

Schuyler said...

I read this article Mike refers to a few months ago and found it quite interesting. I've always struggled with the global flood because it seems to present several problems. Where did the water come from and where did it all go? A local flood makes more sense and would seem to local inhabitants as "covering the whole world." Back then we didn't have FOX or CNN to provide instantaneous report about world conditions instantaneously. Scriptures were often written based upon personal experience. It does contradict the idea that the earth was baptized by being completely covered by water, but that doesn't really bother me since the Lord often leaves out details that might confuse the recipients.

At the time of Adam, the earth was coming our of an ice age. Any idea what the sea level might have been at that time? Was it low enought to provide land bridges between North America and Europe or Asia to allow Adam and Eve to be driven out of the garden of Eden or in other words, the promised land to Mesopotamia?

Anonymous said...

Personally I believe in the old earth and the local middle east flood concept but here are some different ways of looking at the Biblical Flood.
A couple of good books by a geologists in Seattle "The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch" and "Catastrophism and the Old Testament" by Donald Westley Patten that tied the ice age and the flood together and presents a lot of unique ideas on the world wide flood. There could have been a world wide flood by pulling the water from the oceans and across the land mass of the United States and at the same time the earth mantle collapsed. This would be caused by a planet like Mars moving so close to earth and causing extreme tides to cover the earth. He covers most of these ideas in his books. This may be hard to believe but the moon is believed to have been created by a small planet hitting the earth at just the right angle to spin off the moon to the orbit it is today so it may not be out of the question.
Further, there were massive floods from a lake and ice dam one third the size of Montana called Montana lake that would sweep across the state of Idaho, Washington, and Oregon. The proof did not come to light until we had satellites so we could look down on earth and see the results. The place is called Dry Falls Washington State and looks like Niagara Falls with no river running over it. I just point this out to show that many events happened on the earth and leave little or no evidence behind.
Plus we know very little about the meteorites that have struck the earth and they would have left much more damage and evidence than a flood that only lasted a year. These ideas are also on the internet. Also the idea where a meteorite struck the east side of Africa where the epicenter is for all the continents moving out from this epicenter to their present location during the time of Pangaea and the flood. Of Corse the time frame for science and the bible do not match.
Further, there is a lot of good ideas on Noah's ark on how it was constructed and sailed. This ties in with the Jadeites barges that can be found on the internet.
Joseph Smith did say the Garden of Eden was in the United States so Noah would have been sweeped across the Atlantic if the Pacific ocean was pulled out of its place and pulled across the United States. A world wide flood may be able to go undetected if it was a slow rise and kill all humans but allowed animals to seek higher ground. A lot of these ideas can be found on the internet. According to science there were not but a few million people on the earth at any given time until our modern times which would make it easer to destroy all man kind.
Or may be it was just a local flood in the middle east, I can go with either.
Just some ideas for fun. Nothing gospel .
http://www.globalflood.org/papers/2003ICCcpt.html

http://www.creationism.org/patten/PattenBiblFlood/PattenBiblFlood08.htm

http://www.gonorthwest.com/Washington/northeast/Dry_Falls.htm

Anonymous said...

I ended up with a copy of the text you mentioned, "The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch", and found it quite interesting. I think some of the processes he described to create the earth's surface and to bring deposits of minerals to the earth are quite probably. I find it hard to believe that all oil reserves are soley from decaying flesh of dinosaurs.

The reason for my question about the connectivity of the continents 6000 years ago is the casting of Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden may have actually been a migration from North America to the Middle East. Just a thought.

Anonymous said...

Here is a link to the ideas of a meteorite hitting off the west coast of Africa that caused the Pangaea and the continents to move apart. I don't know if any these people know what they are talking about but if they are never willing think outside the box and are not willing to make a paridiam shift they can miss things when they think they already have the answers. After reading books like the Edge of Evolution, Cosmic Jackpot, and The Language of God most scientists are not going to break with the norm and risk ther lively hood even if they might agree.

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation1.html

Peter said...

Gday,

I have done a lot of searching the internet for possibilities on a lot of church information. Personally I believe there was a world wide flood. I went to this site http://www.drdino.com and watched all of his videos. He is against the church but that doesn't mean he has invalid points. Particularly the Hovind theory deals with the flood if I remember correctly. He believes in a young Earth but I have no set belief on the age of Earth. He makes what I would consider some well thought out arguments. I was particularly interested in how dinosaurs fits in with the bible. Quite an interesting couple of sessions.

I like your pages Jeff, very well done, I spend hours reading them each day. Sadly I have neglected my BoM studies. Not because of your site. Thanks for giving me some plausible answers for anti questions.

Regards from a recent convert.
P.S. If you choose to visit my page just remember that I'm still learning ;)

Anonymous said...

Gday,

What is your web site?

teranno4x4 said...

Why only examine the Black Sea and Mediterranean when the Grand Canyon and many National Parks are right on the door step.

Here are many examples of a world -wide flood depositing layers of sediment in places so unexpected there are no scientific reasons. The upheavals of rock faces are of gigantic proportions equating the great expanse and flow of water currents that would have caused such a catastrophic event. Consider the petriphied trees even ..... ! Global flood - no buts!

Think outside your 'localised' considerations and contemplate the evil world from God's point of view. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord ! Amen.

Then think about the words of Jesus - "As it was in the days of Noah ....."

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Here is another link to one mormon's
perspective on some of the confusion about the gobal flood.


http://nephiproject.com/New%20Model%20for%20Noah's%20Ark.htm

teranno4x4 said...

This website is completely hypothetical, convoulted and not logical in it's thinking and makes sweeping statements and claims that are not based on any Biblical Truth.

Examine Genesis for yourself. The website makes claims about the Joseph Smith interpretation / 'new insight' into the location for the Garden of Eden. Here the Bible is explicitely clear. Three rives are mentioned. Look at the locations today from history and explain to me where America exists in these locations. Oh yes I forgot, that is what the Gulf war is all about - reclaiming American land specifically to ensure that Joseph Smith's claims are accurate! Come on - these are no more than fairy stories and should not be entertained in sincerity.

For Noah's Ark specifically, there are only three possibilities. Either it is encased in ice somewhere still on a mountain range that is impenetrable so far by humans. Or it has disintegrated naturally or it was used for firewood / energy by Noah and his family.

Do we need evidence of it today to believe God's covenant? Wasn't this the rainbow that we have today still? God is victorious and deserves our very obedience to His cause for Righteousness in our lives. We would do well to follow Him, blindly if necessary - this is true faith - the faith of Noah!

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

One of the most fascinating scientific discoveries in recent times regarding a universal flood came from some scientists who were not searching for any evidence of the Flood. It came from oceanographers in the Gulf of Mexico who were doing some rather routine research on coral and sediments of the ocean floor.
Their two oceanographic vessels had pulled from the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico several long, slender core samples of the sediment, which includes the fossil shells of one-celled plankton called foraminifera. While still alive, these organisms lock into their shells a chemical record of the temperature and salinity of the water. When they reproduce, the shells fall away and drop to the bottom. A cross-section of that ocean bed carries a record of climates that the oceanographers say go back more than 100 million years.
The cores were analyzed in two different investigations—by Cesar Emiliani of the University of Miami, and by James Kennett of the University of Rhode Island and Nicholas Shack of Cambridge University. Both analyses pointed to a dramatic drop in the salinity of the water, providing compelling evidence of a vast flood of fresh water into the Gulf of Mexico thousands of years ago.
Cesar Emiliani explains the results: ”A huge amount of ice-melt water rushed into the Gulf of Mexico and produced a sea-level rise that spread around the world with the speed of a tidal wave.” He adds, “We know this because the oxygen isotope ratios of the foraminifera shells show a marked temporary decrease in the salinity of the waters of the Gulf of Mexico. It clearly shows that there was a major period of flooding from 12,000 to 10,000 years ago, with a peak about 11,600 years ago. There is no question that there was a flood and there is also no question that it was a universal flood” (“Noah, the Flood, the Facts,” Reader’s Digest, U.S. edition, September 1977, p. 133).

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn047/worldwideflood.htm

Anonymous said...

in another sad story involving seriously biased and subjective scientists...
j harlan bretz suggested that the “scablands” in the american northwest were created by rapid catastrophic floodwaters :-)
both he and his theory were called incompetent...and worse...in fact the rhetoric got so bad that the label became attached to his department and some even regarded the university as inferior for a period of time...what university was it, you ask...why it was dano’s place...the university of washington :-)
the controversial battle raged for two generations (~50yrs)...but bretz finally won out...his theory was accepted and is the current explanation for the formation of the scablands...and of course the university’s reputation was restored and uw is now considered a top flight research etc outfit :-)
The gorge was cut more than 12,000 years ago when the Missoula floods roared down the Columbia River as the last ice age ended. An ice dam near present-day Missoula, Mont., formed and failed more than 50 times over several thousand years. Each time the dam cracked, it unleashed a thousand-foot wall of water that dug through the scablands of Eastern Washington and sliced basalt at 50 mph.
The floods' scale was worthy of Moses. [yep, sure was, got that right, except i think he meant noah rather than moses :-] More water roared in one Missoula event than flows today in all the rivers of the world. The crest at The Dalles was 1,000 feet; the ancient high water line still is visible in the gorge. clicky
did you catch that...”sliced basalt”...we are not talking mere sedimentary deposits...we are talking basalt, baby...that’s hard rock, folks...and i don’t mean bangin’ guitars or burger joints :-)
(and it may have been far fewer than the 50 – 70 dam failures proposed by many...and while they claim that the entire process occurred over “thousands of years,” each event only lasted a matter of hours, perhaps days :-)
here’s more
Giant Floods and Raging Waters
When Ice Age glaciers blocked the Columbia River, the Spokane River and the Clark Fork river in Montana they formed Glacial Lake Columbia, Glacial Lake Spokane and Glacial Lake Missoula. The evidence of these lakes can be seen in the lakebeds visible in various road cuts in eastern Washington and lap marks on hills and gravel deposits in Montana. Glacial Lake Missoula, the largest lake, covered some 3000 square miles and was about 2000 feet deep.
At some time the ice dam blocking the Clark Fork broke, sending nearly 500 cubic miles of water across northern Idaho's Rathdrum Prairie and into eastern Washington. At 45 miles an hour and 10 times the flow of all the rivers in the world today, the raging floodwaters swept into the Spokane Valley and out across the loess-covered basalt plateau. Turbulent, powerful currents eroded the basalt, tearing out whole columns, eroding the loess and scouring the landscape.
Separated into three huge flows up to 600 feet deep the torrents carved the 20 mile-wide Cheney-Palouse Tract, the 14 mile-wide Crab Creek Channel and the 50 mile long Grand Coulee. clicky and... clicky again
and still more...it gets better :-)
Bretz proposed a flood in which the sudden release of a volume of water much larger than that which now flows through the area produced the very large scale erosion. This would require the formation of a dam which would hold back the normal rainfall and snowmelt for many years, and then suddenly break, releasing this water over a period of days of weeks.
...
This evidence strengthened Bretz' case, but left many unconvinced. What was missing was evidence for the large body of water and its sudden drainage. This was found in "beaches" on the mountainsides above Missoula, Montana.
...
With the source of the water identified and supporting evidence for its volume and flow, Bretz' idea was accepted. One of his antagonists was heard to say "How could I have been so wrong" when he visited Palouse Falls. Like many of those who disputed Bretz, he had never before visited the Channeled Scablands... clicky
"How could I have been so wrong" said one of those that had claimed bretz’ incompetence :-) ...he he he...he certainly wasn’t alone in his erroneous nonsense…
many people today ask me the same question when i lecture on the demerits and merits respectively of the evolutionary and creationary philosophies…”how can so many scientists be wrong about evolution?” they ask...here is just one of many examples of how that happens :-)
and did you catch it...many of those that had called bretz incompetent were in fact themselves guilty of tragically gross incompetence of the worst kind...they destroyed much of a man’s career and even affected the reputation of a university to protect their sacred uniformitarian evolutionary millions of years nonsense... and they had never even been on site

http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/scabland.html

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anonymous,

Very good report in support of a Biblical global flood.

However, if we generally take the age of the earth at approx 6000years from the Biblical 'fall of man', why do scientists always feel the need to 'big up' the 'age' old question.

Now it seems that the previous 'millions of years' is being reduced to 10's of thousands of years, but is still Biblically inaccurate. When will we see science adopting the literal record of God ? Is it not possible that through the severe catastrophic natural forces that were at work in the seizmic upheavals together with the surface and underwater currents that the whole devastation is one topic that science will never be able to explain? How is there a conclusion that ice melt water was the cause - was there ice in the world pre-flood (evidence please)?

In exactly the same way that they will never be able to replicate the gift of the very 'Breath of Life' reserved as specifically from God for all existing and continuing life. God is love.

Teranno4x4

Peter said...

I think it's quite interesting that scientists believe that the world has been going on, like it is now, for millions of years. Surely they can see that the world changes all the time. It was a wonderful day when I had a revelation that science can do nothing but prove that God exists. It would be wonderful that we could get science right. Millions of years old? I don't think thats correct. 12,768 if the 1 day = 1000 years in the creation time frame and that the Hebrew/Jewish calendar is accurate.
One of the points that the Dr Hovind makes is that at one point the Grand Canyon is higher then the rest. It seems like a plausible claim to at least a large rush of water forming the chasm in a short amount of time. If you haven't yet watched his seminars I suggest you do.
At the beginning of 2006 I read the Bible and prayed, whilst doing so I received revelation that confirms the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
I prayed for the Lord to bring his church to me. 7 months later I was shaking the hand of a couple of missionaries. No other church had, or has, come to me and I have now been a member for almost a year. I don't regret a moment of it. Satan has tempted me, telling me that I could have so much more if I turned my back. I have to remember why I chose to follow God. I try everyday to live the Gospel and I repent when I don't make it. I thank the Lord Jesus that I have the blessing of knowing him and one day returning to our God.
Peace to you all,
Peter

Peter said...

I forgot that we don't get a time that Adam dwelt within the garden. So I might be out ;)

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Peter,

Please check your calculations again. You may find them to be double what they should be. The Earth is entering it's 7th Biblical Millennia.

Regarding Adam in the Garden of Eden, one theory is that man was asked to leave before any children were on the scene, so it must have been within a nine month time frame. Another supporting factor is that Satan would not have been allowed to ply his wickedness in the Garden for all eternity, so he too was restrained by both time and access to man. All that Adam and Eve had to do was to stay away from that one tree!

Teranno4x4

I would like to make a correction to a typo error. In my earlier message at 1:55 AM, September 17, 2007 I stated that there were three rivers running out of the Garden of Eden. I acknowledge this mistake in that there were four. My apologies to anyone who noticed this mistake. I blame the early mornings!

Peter said...

Not at all, my good friend. I have thought about this and if what the Apostle Peter says about 1,000 years is to a day for the Lord. 1 day in the creation = 1000 years it straight away clocks up 7,000 years. Plus the 5,768 that the Hebrew calendar has recorded. I'm not saying I'm right but I am partial to the young Earth representation. More so then billions of years, until I believe that science has given me a definitive answer.

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Peter,

I don't necessarily agree with your day / thousand year principal applied in this instance I'm afraid as it would also have to be the case for each day that Adam and Eve remained in the garden numerating many thousands of years - not such a young earth!

The day / year principal can be applied to prophecy - but this is not a prophecy. No mortal man was there at the creation, so we MUST take the account given by Moses. If he met in Mount Sinai with God, would God let him get the account wrong ?

If we do accept your notion, how do you account for the literal evenings and mornings that make up the specific first, second, third .....etc days ?

Will you personally limit the authoritive power of our Creator God who can still the storm and give sight to the blind in (not a whole day) but an instant ?

Think about it again - Biblically this time from Genesis direct - and take the Hebrew if necessary.

Teranno4x4

Peter said...

Teranno,

I do see your point. It is quite valid.

Peter

Anonymous said...

Here are some mixed thoughts on Noah and the flood. Nothing gospel doctrine or any thing like that, just ideas that may have been missed because of the preconceived paradigms.

Noah’s Ark has never failed to be the target of skeptics and the butt of many jokes' ‘Everyone knows’, for instance, that you cannot build a boat as large as Noah did from wood, even using today’s advanced technology. Only when ships were made of steel, in the last hundred years or so, we are told, has man been able to build a ship approaching the biblical dimensions of Noah’s Ark, (137m (450 feet) long, 23m (75 feet) wide, and 14m (45 feet) high).
However, Ptolemy III even laid down a 40 (tesseraconter) with a design length of over 400 feet and calling for a crew of 4,000 rowers. But the most successful was the redesign of the trireme to be a larger, longer and wider ship, because again it had to be broadened so that an additional rower could be placed on two of the three tiers of oars. Thus each vertical row or 3 oars had 5 rowers (the bottom tier having but a single rower at each oar) and that’s where it gets its name, quinquereme.
Further, we know from archaeologists best efforts that iron was not discovered during Noahs time period; however, we do not know that Noah was not the richest man in the land and had all the resources at is command and that many of the trades such as iron working, plate making for record keeping, and ship building were kept as family trade secrets or kings secrets. Iron tools and other metals could have been used and then lost because of the flood.
Another thought into the wild blue yonder: there could have been more than one Noah. I know what the bible says but just think how a small thing could have been missed like "other sheep I have which are not of this fold." Because of this missed verse all of Christendom rejects the idea that Christ had other people He visited and set up His church and most Christians think they are the only ones that will be saved. I know the scriptures talked just about Noah but the story is just about him and not the rest of the world. Just like the Book of Mormon is only a history of the people on the Americas. Even if Joseph Smith. did translate this part he may not go into detail about any other part of earth history and expand the story as to how the flood happened or if there were other Noahs involved around the planet earth at that time.

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anonymous,

I apologise for my own scepticisms, but I am slightly confused. I thought that I had made the Biblical standpoint quite clear in my answer to Peter previously. My point to you would be to go back to the Genesis account and read it again for yourself. I can confirm - there was only one Noah. The same very one that Hebrews 11:7 mentions in its 'by faith' list.

Also the point that you maybe missed in the whole account is simply - 'by faith'. Faith can move mountains. Faith does not need rowers. Too many people believe that God was entirely in the destruction going on around that DID take care of all the wicked (it wasn't just about Noah!). I claim that since the angel of the Lord shut the door on the ark, that was exactly where God was residing - in the ark. His divine protection was on the ark. That was why Noah didn't need rowers or human understanding of shipbuilding, because he was fully obedient to God's instruction and that act alone allowed re-population of humans and animals on the earth.

Lastly the verse that you mentioned about "other sheep I have which are not of this fold" - why does this have to be applied like a square peg in a round hole for people in Americas? To make you more confident in the BOM or Joseph Smith ? This verse can either be taken for other populated 'unfallen' planetary systems, or taken for all the Gentiles who had not yet heard the Gospel message. Taking this text out of context is elitist to the LDS faith in the most extreme - and a bigotted small minded view of your faith. Expand your mind and Biblical dimensions - please!

One Noah, one flood, one rainbow.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Peter,

Congratulation on your finding the church and I hope all is going well. I also found the church after having many a number of powerful spiritual experiences that lead me to the church. Hold fast to those experiences and don't let anyone drive you out of the church. I like you try to keep a open mind and study as much science as I can to try to see if there is something new I can learn as it relates to the scriptures.

I don't know who Teranno4x4 is but it sound to me like he get the wrong impression easily.
I don't really care what you made clear because each time I read about all we are learning about in science then when I return to the scriptures there is always something new I see. The same for when I attend the temple.

I always believed in the 7000 year earth creation until I read where Rabbi Isaac of Akko concluded that the universe is 15 billion years old using the old testament. This is roughly in line with what modern science is saying (15 billion years, give or take a couple billion), and Rabbi Isaac of Akko came up with it in the 13th century. Now I don't know any thing for sure except that Jesus Christ is the Son of our Heavenly Father and they restored the gospel to Joseph Smith.

I have been accused of a lot of things but being bigotted and small minded that is a new one. Because of attitudes like that I no longer belong to the church but continue to study and am blessed with the spirit from time to time. I thank God I no longer have to be subjected to such attitudes.

teranno4x4 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anonymous,

I already apologised in advance for my scepticisms in my reply to you, but you seem to concentrate on a criticism that is positively offered. You mistake my comments as I am not in 'the church' that you mention either. But I do speak up for God when I read error. What exactly is a 'restored gospel' ? When did the original gospel need a restoration? Isn't this now the part of the ministry of Jesus to restore the symbolic nation of Israel back to God ? What part did Joseph Smith play in AD31, at the crucifiction, to give him this authority?

I simply described a particular viewpoint as being small-minded and bigotted, because this limiting description is the one that you also use to purvey your belief in God. Well the God that I worship is infinite and omnipotent in all His glory. He can not be contained by our preferred choice of limiting words!

Why does science HAVE to have the correct answers relating to ALL matters Biblical ?

How can science answer faith? How can science answer the power of prayer? How can science answer the 'Breath of Life' ? How can science answer the Resurrection? Quite simply - it can't.

That is not me being narrow minded or bigotted - it is fact ! Some things 'us' Christians NEED more than anything else is faith in Christ Jesus. In Him alone there is salvation. This was the faith of Noah - of this too - there is no doubt!

How can you read from Genesis to Jude and come up with 15 billion years. Create your own timeline based on the Hebrew (if necessary) and the lives of the patriarchs that the rabbi would have had access to too.
I can send you one that has been prepared if you want to see it yourself ? We are entering the 7th millennia based on this Biblical evidence alone. Have Noah's faith that it is still true today!

Teranno4x4

Peter said...

Teranno4x4,

What sect do you aspire to, if any?
Just curious as to your denominational stance.

Peter

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Peter,

Please contact me by e-mail : teranno4x4@yahoo.com and I shall reply with the answer to your question.

I try to answer criticisms raised on this site with Biblical based factual answers. If I give my denomination it will give rise to much preconceived prejudice that I prefer some anonymity. But I do believe that truth WILL set us free.

I am more than willing to share my denomination with you if you do have a genuine interest.

Christian greetings,

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Terrano4x4,
This is the small-minded bigot.
Jeff put this post up to open up differing ideas on Noah and the Flood. If you are not interested in other possibilities than why bother? I am always interested in looking at some of the new ideas that other people may come up with but it is not worth it to having it deteriorate into name calling. You can easily find out anything about this subject on the internet. i.e.. 15 billion years.
I was not addressing you about the rowing ships or your faith or anything else you had to write. The only point was that some scientists claim that such large ships can not be built with wood and I was just pointing out that they have been built in the past without Gods help. So with Gods help Noah could have built the Ark. I don't have the time to help clarify Mormon, Jewish or my views on scriptural research that is going on at this time. Lastly, I just used the example of the other sheep as an example of how some things can and have been missed in understanding the scriptures. That is from the Mormon view. You may not believe in the Mormon version of scriptures or you may not understand other peoples views but there is enough information out there if you want it. Sorry if I am to bigoted, small minded or stupid to get my point across clearly.

My denomination or goal is to avoid bad attitudes. I think of religion as taking a college class on religion or scriptures. I look at all side and not go off on some traditional fundamentalist views that are well known to most people. A far as I understand God nor the scriptures need defending. That is why there are entire departments on religion at universities all around the world.

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Please read my comment from
9:06 AM, September 25, 2007 again.

Your last comment to me does not address any of the concerns that I raise in that comment.

Don't take it as name calling - look at the information I am attemting to offer to you.

God does need defending, because the evidence is clearly recorded in the Bible. To twist it with 'alternative' religious views when timelines and genealagies are in black and white is doubting the accuracy of what God wants us to understand. Just by having a religious department in a university doesn't automatically mean that theology in truth is studied - and that is the outright problem. There are too many ism's and philosophies / opinions that are considered that only create doubt. Taking the Biblical record as inspired by God WILL lead an individual to Jesus.

Go with the evolutionist view of billions of years if you like. Take a glass of pure clear water and sprinkle in some salt. Does it keep it's purity or does it become tainted ? This is how it is with these kinds of 'religious' alternative ideas that keep cropping up. They creep in as sprinkles and start to taint the purity of the message.

Whilst there are people like you who tolerate and explore these views, then they will continue to appeal and lead people away from Jesus and not draw them closer to Him.

Thank you for your time in this topic and sorry that I feel the need to put the thread back on the truthful Biblical track that you name call as fundamentalist.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Peter,

If you are still out there I just wanted to say good job in joining us in the church. I was guided by the from Jewish, Christianity, the LDS church and have had many great spiritual experiences during my journey. I don’t think the church has taken any official position on the creation of the universe, the earth or Garden of Eden or the Flood events but many General authorities and BYU professors have written much about these subjects. There is also a research center called FARMS that does a lot of work on various topics. Also as soon as you can there is much important information in the temple concerning the Garden of Eden and Joseph Smith added much to our insight and understanding of bible events. If you get the chance contact your local LDS book store or ask your home teachers, elders quorum leader, or Bishop about information on any subjects. Jeff Lindsay might be able to offer some suggestions on where to read and get answers.

I like you have wondered how long Adam was in the Garden of Eden and how to justify the times referenced in the creation story. The word the Hebrew work yowm translated as day in the Genesis story is also used for years, seasons, and specific time periods. So the times talked about could be other than what has been passed down through history.

I bring this up because Joseph Smith had a lot to say on how the scriptures were translated. In fact this was why many of the church leaders of his time were so against him. He did not think the bible was translated correctly. However, it is funny now on how many different versions of the bible there are. If you ask for and online bible you may get 21 or more versions to chose from.

Well good luck and happy researching.

Zalha Talzar

teranno4x4 said...

Good grief Zalha Talzar,

As I reminded Peter from an earlier comment, repeated for you :
"If we do accept your notion, how do you account for the literal evenings and mornings that make up the specific first, second, third .....etc days ?

Will you personally limit the authoritive power of our Creator God who can still the storm and give sight to the blind in (not a whole day) but an instant ?

Think about it again - Biblically this time from Genesis direct - and take the Hebrew if necessary. "

A day with an 'evening' and a 'morning' is a literal day. The sun comes up today and will go down in the same way that it did after it was created. Do you know any different?

"Passed down through history" ? Moses wrote the Genesis account. He also met with God for 40 days and nights on mount Sinai. Would God instruct him a record full of error to write? Oh I forgot - it must be that Joseph Smith was closer to God than Moses! That is why God met and talked to Moses - but sent a mere angel to Mr. Smith. Maybe Mr. Smith was jealous, like his instructing angel.

Please reconsider the Genesis literal account - if you don't, you automatically limit God's authoritive creative power and your own faith in the process!

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

The introduction of the sun, moon, and stars does not show up until the forth day and many biblical scholars have had many differing understands of the creation account but if you only read the bible and are never willing to learn from biblical scholars then you just have no choose but to take the bible literally. Of course you know more than they.

Anonymous said...

You limit God by your narrow read of the scriptures. If you look at other possibilities then God may have moved in ways you would never consider. God is not limited only we are limited by what we all willing to consider.

Sorry I can't help it. I just keep feeding the trolls.

teranno4x4 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

You sound very defensive. I am not questing your faith or believes because I don't know you or any thing about you. You keep pushing the literalist point of view which many hold, however once that position is taken then then other position is a waste of time because the bible states what it states. I personally look a the creation from both a young earth and an old universe\earth. I just enjoy studying both. Again I am not questing any of your positions I am just reading and studying the scriptures from all angles.

Peter said...

Gday,

It's very interesting to read the differences in opinions. I don't think I will email you Teranno4x4 for the simple fact that I don't really want to give you my email address. I don't understand why you refuse to ascribe to a denomination on here but respect your decision to withhold it.

I think the biggest thing is that I am trying to keep an open mind so that the Lord can direct me in the right way. If I close myself off to other possibilities then what I have read in the Bible, say by taking a literal meaning, when something new is revealed I would not accept it because it goes against my line of thinking.

I am willing to adapt my thinking to align myself with God and all that he reveals. I know that I have had lots of influence from Him in my life and to only accept the Bible as definitive word would be folly. Considering that a large amount of my revelation did not come from the Bible as is, but by logically thinking about it and praying for answers.

Anonymous said...

Peter,

I hope this is not to much information but as a convert when I joined years ago it was hard to research various topics and discuss them with other members. But now with the internet it makes it a lot easer. Sorry if I am overly excited.

I was not able to watch the Hovind Theory videos because of security lock out on my computer but I did find a point counter point transcript between him and Hugh Ross the author of Finger Print of God. Hugh is from the school of thought of fitting the creation story with what science knows from the universe being 15 billion years old. I have also read where he has debated other Christians on the subject. It looks like the house is still divided in the Christian world.

I also saw a web page that has a mug shot of Hovind. It sounds like he is one of the bad boys of the Christian world. If what I read on the web can be believed.

Back to Noah. I found one web page where they list over 100 world flood stories from different ancient religions and cultures from all around the world. From the history of man it looks like something big happened that was passed down through time. The only problem is archeology show no broken line of demarcation where mankind and animals disappeared long enough and was spread wide enough to justify a world wide flood. So it always comes down to dating the age of the earth. I personally still like the world wide flood concept the best.

Noah’s Flood, Global or Local?
Noah is probably the same person as Ziusudra of Shuruppak in the Sumerian King List (See http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/ash/faqs/q001/q001006.html). and Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh Epic. The Sumerian and Babylonian flood story is very similar to Noah’s flood in the Bible (List of similarities at http://www.cumber.edu/acad/rel/hbible/HebrewBible/hbmisc/floodsim.htm). In Sumerian the name of flood hero is Ziusudra. The Sumerain flood story is found in the text entitled "Eridu Genesis" (See http://www.piney.com/EriduGen.html) that starts off with a creation story. In Babylonian (Akkadian) the flood hero is named Utnapishtim. Dalley states, "it is just possible that an abbreviation of (Uta)-na’ish(tim) was pronounced 'Noah' in Palestine from very early times" (1989, 2). Just as my name is spelled differently in Greek or Hebrew, so too we can not expect the name for Noah or Adam to be spelled the same in a foreign language. The King Lists would put the flood about 2900 BC.
Another very important flood story is Atrahasis because it parallels the first eleven chapters of Genesis.
The Biblical story of Noah’s flood is a beautiful chiastic structure with "God remembers Noah" (Genesis 8:1) as the pinnacle of the poem (Wenham 1987, 156; Kikawada & Quinn 1985, 104).
The Noahic flood was a local flood that covered all the known world at that time which was the Mesopotamian valley. When Luke 2:1 says that the whole world was taxed, it is not talking about the whole world as we know it which includes North America, South America, Australia, and Antarctica. In Luke 2 "world" means only the Roman empire around the Mediterranean Sea. There are many places in scripture where "all the earth" does not mean the whole globe as we know it. (See http://www.angelfire.com/cgi-bin/admem?category=) The same is true of Noah’s flood. Geology shows no evidence of a world flood at Noah’s time (See http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/6flood.htm, ) but archaeology has found a layer of mud that probably is from Noah’s flood of 2900 BC. In the Mesopotamian valley (Young 1995).
The word play with names is not unusual in different cultures. Many places in the United States are named after American Indians but when they are spoken in their native language you have to wonder how they got the English version they did.
Here is something that you may find interesting. One member of the LDS church discovered that many scriptures in the Book of Mormon is written in chiasmus form just as many parts of the Bible and other ancient middle eastern documents are. You can find LDS books and research papers on this topic online. I think Jeff Lindsay may have had some of this on his blog. The first ones I found on the internet is from the bible flood story that a nonmember found and the second is a sample from the Book of Mormon. It looks like Joseph Smith got it right again with Gods help.
Genesis 6-9 Noah's Flood
Chiasmus or Palistrophic Structure
The flood story has an interesting structure called a chiasmus from the Greek letter Chi that looks like an "X". The order is stated then restated in reverse order.

Introduction (6:9-10)
1. Violence on the earth (6:11-12)
2. First speech: intent to destroy earth (6:13-22)
3. Second speech: go into the ark (7:1-10)
4. The Flood starts (7:11-16)
5. The flood rises (7:17-24)
Climax-God remembers Noah (8:1a)
5a.The Flood recedes (8:1b-5)
4a.Drying off of the earth (8:6-14)
3a.Third speech: leave the ark (8:15-19)
2a.Will not destroy earth again (8:20-22)
1a.Fourth speech: the covenant (9:1-17)
Conclusion (9:18-19), (see Anderson 1978, 38; Wenham 1987, 156)

Another Palistrophic Structure
7 days waiting for the flood (7:4)
7 more days waiting for the flood (7:10)
40 days of rain (7:17a)
150 days of rising water (7:24)
150 days of receding water (8:3)
40 days of waiting (8:6)
7 days waiting (8:10)
7 more days waiting (8:12), (see Wenham 1978, 337-39; 1987, 157)

http://www.jefflindsay.com/chiasmus.shtml
The following is from Jeffs web page.
Here are two examples from Isaiah, as presented by Victor L. Ludlow in Isaiah: Prophet, Seer, and Poet [note 2] (one of my favorite books):
(a) Make the heart of this people fat,
(b) and make their ears heavy,
(c) and shut their eyes;
(c') lest they see with their eyes,
(b') and hear with their ears,
(a') and understand with their heart,
and convert [return], and be healed. (Is. 6:10)
(abc) Come ... to the house of the God of Jacob; and ... and we will walk in his paths...
(d) And he shall judge among the nations...
(e) they shall beat their swords into plowshares
(e') and their spears into pruninghooks
(d') nation shall not lift up sword against nation...
(a'b'c') O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD. (Isaiah 2:3-5)

Peter said...

I have read about chiasmus before on one of my many searches. I stumbled upon www.cometozarahemla.org it is a very interesting site and has also helped me in my intellectual understanding. I wanted to have some answers for questions that people ask. I am hoping I will get to serve a mission and am in the process of talking to my Bishop and finding out about the whole process and all of that good stuff. Hopefully I will be 1/4 my way into a mission this time next year.
Thanks for all your comments,
Peter