Discussions of Mormons and Mormon life, Book of Mormon issues and evidences, and other Latter-day Saint (LDS) topics.

Sunday, November 04, 2007

Adam and the Fall: God's Plan Thwarted?

We've had a few comments recently from people who disagree with the LDS view of the plan of salvation, especially our understanding of the purpose of life and the destiny of man. And much of this centers around an understanding of the Fall.

From our perspective, the childlike state of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was not intended as the final state of mankind. For us to truly put on the divine nature and fulfill our destiny as glorified sons and daughters of God, it would be necessary for man to move beyond the innocence of the Garden and grapple with the dangerous gifts of knowledge and free agency. Why? That we might become more like Christ, even joint heirs with Him (Romans 8), destined to put on the divine nature (2 Peter 1) and become "like Him" (1 John 3:1). This required that we obtain the kind of knowledge and agency not available in the Garden. Remember, it was only after the Fall that the Lord said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil . . . ." (Genesis 3:22).

Latter-day Saints differ from much of modern "mainstream" Christianity in their views on the Fall of man. Many other Christians teach that God intended for mankind to remain in the Garden of Eden without knowledge of good and evil, childlike and innocent. Adam is the great villain, who spoiled everything for the rest of us. As Augustine taught, Adam's sin was so terrible that all human beings deserve to suffer eternal punishment because of him and the original sin that comes upon us because of Adam (see Seth Farber, "The Reign of Augustine," The Christian Activist: A Journal of Orthodox Opinion, Vol. 13, Winter/Spring 1999, pp. 40-45,56). Adam's rebellion forced God to come up with an (inferior) alternative to His original plan. One minister explained to me that this whole existence of ours and all that we go through is a big mistake, all because of that villain of villains, Adam.

In the LDS view, God's plan was not thwarted. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God to rescue fallen mankind was not an unfortunate backup plan, but was a key part of God's perfect plan from the beginning. Thus, the New Testament speaks of Christ as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8). In fact, it was God's purpose from the beginning for all of us to be introduced into mortality where we would learn to walk in faith, to grow up and become accountable, choose to follow Him, and receive of His grace. Thus, the Fall of Man was intended. As Brigham Young explained, "The Lord knew they would do this and he had designed that they should" (Journal of Discourses, 10:103).

Adam and Eve, as innocents without knowledge of even their own nakedness (Gen. 2:25; 3:7), were unable to have children and were unable to keep the greater commandment that they had been given, to multiply and replenish the earth. This is my understanding based on the teachings of the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi 2:22-23:
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
It was God's intent and sacred plan that they should have children, for as the Lord explains in Isaiah 45:18, He "created [the earth] not in vain, [but] he formed it to be inhabited." God gave Adam and Eve a higher and a lower commandment - multiply on one hand, or avoid the tree of knowledge of good and evil on the other. God knew of Satan's intent to stir up disobedience, but was one step ahead. Yes, Satan deceived Eve, and she partook of the fruit, which meant that she would be cast out of the Garden. Then Adam had to choose between staying in the Garden of Eden without Eve, where he could never hope to multiply, or following Eve into mortality by partaking of the fruit in order to keep the higher law. Adam, in choosing to partake of the fruit, Adam was transgressing a lower commandment to keep the higher law. Eve was deceived, but Adam was not, as the Bible states in 1 Tim. 2:14. What does this passage mean under "mainstream" views of Adam as a villain? Is there a more reasonable explanation than the LDS perspective, which holds, as the Book of Mormon teaches, that "Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy" (2 Nephi 2:25)?

Yes, Adam faced a dilemma because of Eve's disobedience, and thus had to disobey one instruction to keep another that was more important (to multiply and replenish the earth). As a result of the transgression, they were cast out of God's presence and became mortal, fallen creatures, yet they were blessed with knowledge of good and evil, free agency, and the ability to have children. But faced with death and the certainty of sin, they were doomed creatures - were it not for the foreordained role of the Messiah, who would redeem them and provide a way to return to the presence of God as glorious sons and daughters of the Father of glory. The end result is that God's children, by passing through this fallen state of mortality, can gain knowledge of the glories of God and become joint heirs with Christ of all that God has (Rom. 8:14-18). We must taste the bitter to fully understand the sweet, and we must enter into the dangerous stage of mortality in order to receive the blessing of eternal life, which is God's kind of life (not just immortality per se). The words of God to Enoch, recorded in the Book of Moses (given to Joseph Smith by revelation), summarize this powerful doctrine well (see Moses 6:55-61).

If Adam were the ultimate villain, it is puzzling that the Bible would speak of him as a symbol of Christ ("the figure of him that was to come" - Rom. 5:14) or say that he was not deceived (1 Tim. 2:14) or refer to Christ as the last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45). Yet Adam's fall resulted in temporal death (being cut off from the physical presence of God; see Alma 42:7-9) and sin in the world, which could only be overcome through an infinite price paid by a sinless Redeemer who took our pains (the price of our sins) upon Him and sacrificed His own life that we might be free from the Fall and become new creatures in Him (Rom. 5:10-15; 2 Cor. 5:17-21). Christ's Atonement overcomes spiritual death, the state of being cast out of God's presence by sin, by having paid for our sins and offering us forgiveness through his cleansing blood, if only we will follow Him. His Atonement also overcomes physical death, the death of the body, by the power of the Resurrection, offering immortality to all (1 Cor. 15:21,22 - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"; see also John 5:28,29). Further, "temporal death" in Alma 42 refers to physical separation from God, more so than mere physical death, a catastrophe which the Atonement remedies for those who accept Christ.

Christ's glorious role as Redeemer required that there be a Fall. Without the Fall, there would be no grace. Without temporal death (being physically cut off from the presence of God; see Alma 42:7-9), we could never be tried and there would be no righteousness. Without knowledge of sin, there would be no knowledge of goodness and thus no true appreciation of the glory of God. As the Book of Mormon teaches, there must be opposition in all things to achieve God's purposes (see 2 Nephi 2).

The ultimate implication of the Fall is the possibility of having joy. True joy comes in knowing God and Christ and knowingly choosing to follow them, entering into their presence as sons and daughters who chose the good part and the grace offered by Christ. A babe without knowledge of good and evil cannot know the joy that comes with good, or the growth that comes by choosing the source of all good. It is through overcoming the trials of mortality, "our light affliction," that we have hope of "a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" (2 Cor. 4:17). This mortal experience gives us the opportunity to become the "jewels" of God (Malachi 3:17), being refined and chosen in the furnace of affliction (Isaiah 48:10), enabled to sit with Christ in his throne if we overcome (Rev. 3:21). God wants us in heaven with Him and Christ. The Garden of Eden was not heaven. Our intended and long-planned destiny is not ignorant nakedness in the Garden of Eden, but as Paul said in 2 Cor. 5:2-4,
2  ...we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven;

3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up in life.
By the way, I'm pleased to note that not all non-LDS denominations feel that the Fall was a big mistake. A good treatise from someone a bit closer to our view is Erwin W. Lutzer in his book, Ten Lies about God (Word Publishing, Nashville, TN, 2000). See particularly Chapter 8, "Lie 8: The Fall Ruined God's Plan," pp. 137-157. Lutzer is a pastor at the Moody Church in Chicago.

A good resource for further reading is "Salvation History and Requirements" - chapter 4 of Barry Bickmore's excellent book, restoring the Ancient Church.

248 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous of Nov 14, 2007 @ 5:43 AM,

I've definitely experienced the Holy Spirit in my life at virtually every turn. In both in my high points and my low points, I have never felt without the Holy Spirit. I have prayed in earnest regarding your Book of Mormon and I have recieved revelation that it is untrue. You do not know me, and can not know all of my experiences, nor can I know you. But I do know that God has revealed to me the untruthfulness of your BOM. How do I know this? Well your test for whether the spirit is revealing truth is that burning in the breast one would feel. That's what I feel in mass, that's what I feel when I pray as my church teaches. I do not feel that when I've read and prayed about your BOM. In fact what I've felt was the overwhelming feeling that what is written in the pages of the BOM are no where near the truth. So in response to your posting, which was a response to T4X4, and is as follows:

T4x4, said:

"Isn't there a possibiliy that the Bible could be right as I have suggested and Joseph Smith has deceived many in believing in his 'overpowering darkness experience of the enemy'"

No. Not if one has experenced the Holy Spirt.

What I would say in response to your posting is that if one has truly experienced the Holy Spirit, the revelation one would recieve is that JS has decieved millions.

CD

Anonymous said...

T4x4,

John 21:20-23

The Acts of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Theologian: About His Exile and Departure has the apostle mysteriously disappearing, leaving the brethren at Ephesus to reflect on Jesus’ words to Peter concerning him.[21] Introducing some of John’s writings in his own work, Hilary of Poitiers wrote, “Let John speak to us, while he is waiting, just as he is, for the coming of the Lord; John, who was left behind and appointed to a destiny hidden in the counsel of God, for he is not told that he shall not die, but only that he shall tarry” (On the Trinity 6.39). [22] In the fourth century, St. Augustine, commenting on John 21:19-25, wrote,

Who can readily believe that anything else was meant than what the brethren who lived at the time believed, namely, that that disciple was not to die, but to abide in this life till Jesus came?

Anonymous said...

T4x4, said:

"I've definitely experienced the Holy Spirit in my life at virtually every turn."

As a convert, I am sure you have felt the Holy Spirit, because before I was instructed by my Heavenly Father by the Holy Spirit to join the LDS church I had experienced the Holy Spirit concerning Jesus Christ. However, when the Holy Spirt tells me to join I must follow. If God tells you to do other wise then it is best you follow Him.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon,

Please check the comments.

The comment "I've definitely experienced the Holy Spirit in my life at virtually every turn." was not left by me.

It was left by someone ending their comment 'CD'.

I appreciate in advance, your retraction of addressing me with your last comment.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 3:28 AM, November 15, 2007

So you believe in fables ?

This theory has no more credibility than the more credible theory that John went to live with Mary (mother of Jesus) in Ephesus, both passing away naturally at an elderly age.

The fact is that information is very limited and that from the Bible verses Jesus was only asking a hypothetical (not literal) question directly to Peter, to get Peter to focus on his own personal faith.

Anonymous said...

So you believe in fables ?


Yes I believe in fables, because most of the bible can not be proven then I believe in fables. Walking on water, water into wine, resurection....ect.

Frank J. said...

God is all powerful, all knowing, knowing the end from the beginning. If he did not want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, why did he create the fruit? Given the first statements, which are believed by most Christians, he would have known that they were going to eat the fruit. Knowing this he prepared for the consequences "before the foundation of the world." 1 Peter 1:19-20 and Micah 5:2

God would not be all powerful if he set up a plan for an entire world that was thwarted so easily.

Anonymous said...

HO, yes, fables of The First Vision of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appearing to Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon, and John the Beloved still alive (Tarry). Sorry I just can't give up my fables.

Anonymous said...

Frank J.

The tree and the fruit was allowed in the Garden to be a test to Adam and Eve's loyalty to their Creator God. They failed miserably without much effort from the adversary.

It was NOT God's plan for them to fail, but He lovingly gave them a choice. Or was it also his plan for the suffering in your life too (I don't know your life but guaranteed you'll get some suffering sooner or later)? Is God getting enjoyment out of watching you suffer or did He enjoy offering His son as a sacrifice for many ?

Anonymous said...

Anon,

We don't find much physical evidence today for your fables.

The Bible by contrast has described explicitely many many thousands of evidences for proven prophecies, destinies and empires.

Anonymous said...

"We don't find much physical evidence today for your fables."

Then you have never studied the life and prophies of Joseph Smith and his writings. Plus can't change water in to wine. Our Kung Fu is better than your kung fu. So there. You just need to humblely pray and ask a be willing to give your whole life. How much do you want to know, what are you willing to scrifice? It is in your hands to find out.

Anonymous said...

I'm not willing to sacrifice anything to Joseph Smith as a result of chilish comments.

So thanks for the tip, but I will continue to serve the God that can change water into wine - fact not fiction.

Keep practicing the kung-fu - you'll need it when satan comes a-calling.

Anonymous said...

"childish"

Anonymous said...

Just kidding. Did not mean to hurt anyones feelings.

Anonymous said...

T4x4,


"John is now dead which the Bible defines as 'sleep' (for those who died under the redeeming power of Jesus). He will not be alive until the resurrection."

There were those that were resurrected just after Christ was resurrected. There is also talk of a spirit prison where those from Noah on down stay until they are resurrected.

"Sleep" only one religious group that I know of uses this term. "?"

Lars said...

Whew, all the anonymous postings are very confusing. If any of you are still checking, could I request that you start using names/pseudonyms? Before you post a message, go down to "Choose an identity" and select the "Other" button. It doesn't even have to be your real name-- I'm sure for example "Bookslinger" and "Terrano4x4" are not on their respective birth certificates-- just something to keep straight who's talking to whom.

NM said...

I echo lars here...PLEASE get yourselves handles! =/

NM said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
NM said...

The essence of the fall are encapsulated in these four words: "I AM MY GOD".

It is the supreme pleasure we have in being God NOT seeing God. It is in finding more pleasure in ruling my life so that I get praise than beholding God's life so that He gets my praise...

PRAISE ME, AFFIRM ME, LIKE ME, MAKE MUCH OF ME, I AM MY GOD.

It takes a miracle, called a conversion/transformation/born-again, for us to fall out of love with ourselves and our independence, and our rights; and just fall in love with just seeing truth and beauty and goodness and living to praise Him =)

...it takes a miracle...

Anonymous said...

NM, said:

The essence of the fall are encapsulated in these four words: "I AM MY GOD".

I don't have a clue what you are saying here. I do understand the last half of your statements but you lost me here.

Hand el

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Hand el,

This is the statement in summary that both Adam and Eve declared in their minds before they bit into the fruit. The eating was open evidence of the sin already committed in their minds.

They openly declared that they no longer needed God's divine wisdom or council. They took matters into their own hands (in turn delivering dominion to the hands of satan) and subsequently lost their key to Eden's happiness and literally walking daily with God.

When Pandora's box was opened, could Adam or Eve close it and return the devastation that was to come? Did they become like God? What did they lose? Are they guaranteed eternal life? To these questions nothing is certain for them, even now. What a price to pay for disobedience. And you name this as progress ?

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

And how are we reading Admas thoughts? Or are we now just making up our own scriptures?

Anonymous said...

No where does Adam or Eve state they think they are G-d or G-d like. All such statements come from G-d or Satan.

teranno4x4 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

OK - I'll go along with your point (without agreeing) in order to explain ... until you realise that God Himself told them to stay away from the tree and not to eat it's fruit.

This means that it was no accident that Eve went to the tree. Did she sin yet? - of course not. When satan gave her the deceptive lie - had she sinned yet? - of course not. When she held the fruit in her own hands, had she sinned yet? - well possibly but we don't quite know accurately as she could still have walked away.
So the big question is when did she sin? The answer must be: once she had made her cognitive, intelligent decision. The eating only confirmed her decision. This equals what Jesus taught about those that look lustfully at the opposite sex have already committed the sin of adultery. The act itself is not necessary.

The implication in Adam and Eve's situation is WHO did they believe at that time. God or satan? If they believed God - they would not have been found in that place. So the conclusion is that they must have believed the lie from the deceiver. "They will be like God". That was their reasoning. They believed the lie that something was missing from their creative state. Adam's apostacy was worse in that he could only see a 'you will surely die' separation from his created partner, without any other understanding. He could see no further than that. That is what stimulated him to decide to eat. Nothing else. Their sin was in their DECISIONS, not ONLY in the eating.

Teranno4x4

1:40 AM, November 22, 2007

Anonymous said...

"I AM MY GOD".

"This is the statement in summary that both Adam and Eve declared in their minds before they bit into the fruit."

Just more wild speculation about what went through Adams mind. Just making up scripture.

tom said...

HI,Nature....is Nature!.....God is God.God decide's what nature doe's.Who is Joseph Smith?...The self annointed one?The true Messiah,was Jesus Christ who sacrifised himself, for us,...the human race.Joseph Smith was probably just part of the Chorous line[deluded as he must have been].

Everyone believe's in something or somebody.Ask the Egyptian's and the Aztec's.


jOSEPH sMITH...CAN'T EVEN BE BOTHERED CAPITALIZING HIS NAME.

As far as I'm concerned....he's as you and I.I'm a bit concerned that he was another who had a revelation near a tree/Forest/Wood's/???.

The real Messiah was crucified,suffered and buried.


How did your joseph do?

Peter said...

Hi Tom,

Nice to see a new person posting. It appears that you think we worship Joseph Smith. Is this right? If so I would ask that you do some research into what we believe before you post.
Some good resources would be Mormon.org or you could go to Christ.org. These should give you some good insights into what we believe. I am hoping that you will notice that our religion is Jesus Christ centered. I am also hoping that you would see that we believe that Joseph Smith was chosen to be a prophet for our day and age and not a messiah. To restore truths and knowledge lost. Though if you are interested in really knowing what we believe please look at the mentioned pages.

Peter

Anonymous said...

And who was Adam, Noah, Moses, Peter, or Paul that they dare to say they knew G-d? How could Joseph Smith have known G-d? Just men made perfect in Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

Hi Anonymous,

Where are Adam, Noah, Peter, or Paul today ?

They are DEAD ! They were not perfect otherwise they would still be alive. I would like to offer that maybe you meant that they were changed to be sinless in Jesus Christ, not perfect. Perfection will only be applicable to the human race after man is translated into glory after the second coming.

Did you not read what T4x4 actually said : the sin was in the decision of Adam and Eve, not only the eating of the fruit in that they both believed that something was missing from their created state? That I see as not speculation but understanding. They chose not to rely on God finally. That also is not speculation - it is fact.

Can't you see that too?

Anonymous said...

Joseph Smith is a prophet just as much as Moses or Peter because Jesus Christ choose him and through the Holy Ghost you too can know this.

Teranno4x4 said...

Anon,

How do you respond when I can 100% claim that the Holy Spirit has communicated to me that Joseph Smith's message is one of deceipt ?

Does that have any bearing on your understanding or do you then come to the conclusion that I am lost, just because I do not believe the same as you?

I can confirm that the Holy Spirit pointed me only to Jesus as my Saviour. To worship Him in love and truth as reverently as I can by choice. He is the resurrection and the life.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Terrano says How do you respond when I can 100% claim that the Holy Spirit has communicated to me that Joseph Smith's message is one of deceipt ?

Well, since you ask, my guess would be that whatever spirit communicated with you was not holy.

Peter said...

Guys, stop your bickering.

We are all lost. If we all just follow Christ, as we are following Christ, we will be led to choose the right. There is no point fighting about someones belief of Joseph Smith as a prophet. Joseph Smith is not and never was the focal point. Just focus on Christ, doing what you believe to be right and I am sure that we will get through.
I myself know that Joseph Smith is a prophet. Teranno4x4 doesn't have to believe it, all we have to do as Christians is follow what we know, with an eye of faith and hope to Christ. As best we know how.

Peter

Peter said...

Because I can't be bothered explaining my comment "We are all lost" just disregard that part please.

Teranno4x4 said...

Peter,

I appreciate your comment and I agree 100% with you. I also understood what you meant by 'we are all lost'.

But it is also true that we have the hope that is Jesus and it is to him that you point too. So we are in total agreement on this point.

I wasn't bickering with Anon. I was trying to find out what makes him so resentful of anyone that doesn't believe the same as he (inside LDS). He has made his thoughts known, that we all outside LDS must be listening to the wrong spirit.

Anon, are these the same spirits that you believe to be in your 'spirit world' seeing as they are not Holy ? Can you see how your doctrine can go around full circle if you make these accusations without truly knowing intimately an individual's conversion to Jesus ?

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

T4x4, said:

"How do you respond when I can 100% claim that the Holy Spirit has communicated to me that Joseph Smith's message is one of deceipt?"

This is a different Anon, I have no idea what spirit gave you that information, from my experience as a convert to the LDS church, most if not all people are in the spiritual state that they should be. I have known did all they could to study, learn, pray, and fast to know about one religion or another, but thay could never obtain any conformation to assure them of what they should do. So if you have studied and prayed with a true desire to know what you should do, then you have done your part untill Christ decides other wise.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

As I told you it was 100% the Holy Spirit. I have absolutely no element of doubt.

Teranno4x4

jackg said...

I have to say that the LDS position with regard to the plan of salvation works from the premise that God's plan was dependent on sin. Also, to say that Adam had to fall is to presuppose that God would not have had Adam and Eve bear children unless they had disobeyed. The biblical text does not infer such a position. Also, to work from a premise that a "greater" law trumps a "lesser" law is dangerous. It doesn't make sense that God would give a lesser law for us to break so that a greater law could be obeyed. The error in this argument is that you base your understanding on the Book of Mormon rather than the biblical text, and to relegate the Bible to a diminuitive stature is to work from the premise that God would not and/or could not protect His revealed word, and that man has more power than God in this area. Though you might deny it, this is exactly what you are saying. The BOM cannot trump the biblical text, but is to be measured against it.

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Anonymous said...

Lots of speculation here. If the creation stories in Genesis are for real, then which of the two is the right one? And about the pre-mortal state before entering this world: If God does not want us to carry any memories over from this estate, why does the LDS church teach us about these pre-mortal events? I can't imagine God being happy about LDS'ers letting the cat out of the bag? On the positive side: The LDS church is at least interesting, which cannot be said of traditional Christian churches of today.

Back to Basics said...

WG@22

I am not sure that you will read this, but I will write anyway ...

Don't be so rude - I have just read through the most of the comments here and I personally think that what Teranno4x4 is getting at is quite correct. I see his / her comments as polite and tactful questioning and you should be prepared to answer in honesty and grace, not with derision.

Do you have the Spirit of Christ in you or the spirit of contention?

Anonymous said...

This makes as much sense as the sun reflecting light from Kolob to earth.
Who did Adams sons marry? The children of the pre-adamite people who were already here. The rocks Adam used to build the Altar in Missouri(still standing after centuries) had fossils in it... only achievable by death and time.

Adam is God, per Brigham Young and Eve was one of his plural wives from before this earth was formed.

Anonymous said...

Anon,

What fiction you are talking about!

Hahaha.

Adam was the first man on this planet. Eve was the first woman. The earth before them was without form and void.

If you were void, then you wouldn't exist or be able to type such nonsense.

In the genetic pool, it wouldn't have mattered if the offspring of Adam and Eve had married or borne children as their DNA was about as perfect as humanity could get after sinning.

Obviously now in our degenerate state, to mimic something that took place in terms of the early state of the earth, our genetic pool would not tolerate such a close resemblence in genetic make up in an in-bred situation.

Johnny said...

It was not the act of Adam and Eve disobeying God's commandment that enabled them to have children like Mormonism teaches, it was the help of the LORD that enable them to multiply (Gen 4:1). Adam and Eve were created like little children, like innocent little children they were not ashamed of their nakedness (Gen 2:25). After eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they knew they were naked (Gen 3:7-17). God's plan is not for his children to disobey, his plan is for his children to obey their father (Eph 6:1,2). Disobeying God's commandment is not a necessary step to know good and evil, Jesus knew good and evil without disobeying God's commandment (2Cor 5:21). After reaching an age of maturity it is natural for a male and a female creature to multiply, the great whales created by God and who were blessed by God to be fruitful and multiple like Adam and Eve were able multiply without having to first disobey God's commandment (Gen 1:21-28).

Adam's fall was not a great blessing to all of us as Mormonism teaches because of Adam's sin men have a physical body of "sinful flesh" (Rom 8:13), all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23; Rom 5:12,19), and all die because death passed upon all men and condemnation (Rom 5:12, 16). Adam's fall was not a necessary step in the plan of life as Mormonism teaches because before the fall they had fullness of joy by being in the presence of the Lord (Psalm 16:11), they had the right to choose between to obey or disobey God's commandment (Gen 3:17), they had eternal life since death came after he sinned (Rom 6:23; Rom 5:12), they were blessed by God to be fruitful and multiply just like the whales (Gen 1:21-28), and they would have done good by obeying God's commandment (Gen 2:16).

Men are not blessed for disobeying God’s commandments like Mormonism teaches because men are blessed for doing his commandments, those who obey have the right to the tree of life (Rev 22:14). Adam sinned, the wages of sin is death (Rom 5:16; Rom 6:23). It is sin to him that knows to do good, and does it not (James 4:14). Adam knew God’s commandment to not eat of the tree before he disobeyed God’s commandment (Gen 3:17). God held Adam responsible for his sin, God told him that in sorrow shall thou eat of it all the days of thy life (Gen 3:17). Eve ate of the tree because she desired to be wise (Gen 3:6). The serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty (2Cor 11:3). Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression (1Tim 2:14).

Adam and Eve did not have to transgress to know good and evil like Mormonism teaches because they could have asked for wisdom before they disobeyed God's commandment (James 1:5). The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the opportunity to learn about good and evil. God could have taught them about evil by using the example of the devil who is a liar (John 8:24). God could have taught them about good through the wisdom of children obeying and honoring their Father (Eph 6:1,2). God could have taught them that blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life (Rev 22:14).

It was not Adam's transgression that brought great blessings like Mormonism teaches, it was Jesus' obedience that brought great blessing to all of us, Jesus turned the fault into happiness (Rom 5:19; 412). All will be resurrected to stand in judgment before God (Acts 24:15). Transgression was not necessary to know good and evil like Mormonism teaches, Jesus knew good and evil and he did not have to transgress (1John 3:5). Having a physical body is not necessary for our progression as Mormonism teaches, the Holy Ghost does not have a physical body yet the Holy Ghost is God (Acts 5:3,4).

bradcarmack said...

Thanks for your thoughts on this always thought-provoking topic!

Anonymous said...

Wg@22,

No - leave him alone - he makes sense to me.

Back to Basics said...

Johnny,

Thanks for leaving your comments with so many references to scripture, they are much appreciated and in line with my own thinking. I wonder if Jeff will ever respond from the Mormon perspective with similar scripture that supports this whole Mormon 'need to sin in order for humanity to progress with physical bodies' theory?

Personally, I also wonder how many of the parent Mormons that read this blog (Jeff included) have fed their young children on a immoral diet of such secular activity as : porn, dark music, horror movies, gossip magazines or race hate? Or maybe they have tested the children by leaving this 'information' available for children to consume at their freedom in their homes just as a 'test' for their supposed beneficial 'progression?

If we were made (as the Bible teaches within the creation account described in Genesis) 'in the image of God' and God is our Heavenly Father, and if we would not feed our own children on an immoral diet of evil, why could Mormons ever believe that God intended it that way in the very beginning so that humanity could 'progress'?

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