Fruits Meet for Repentance
Perhaps the endless repetitive arguments over salvation and the role of works and obedience would be more easily resolved if we focused on repentance rather than obedience and commandment keeping. Some critics think that our teachings on obedience, keeping commandments, and doing good is an expression of pride, of thinking that we can earn our way to heaven without relying on grace, of thinking that Jesus somehow is not enough. Quite the opposite. For the converted Christian, I would suggest that the desire to obey, to serve God, and to keep the commandments that God has given expresses a recognition that we are sinners, that we have fallen, that Jesus is our only hope, and that we wish to and must follow Him. Recognizing our sinful and hopeless state without Christ, we are led by the Spirit of God to repent of our sins and to begin obeying God instead.
Obedience is intimately linked to repentance. Real Christians aren't obeying God because they think they are holier than everyone else and saving themselves through good works. They are obeying because they recognize that they are sinners and are repenting of their sins and seeking to follow God and separate themselves from their old ways. Obedience is an active expression of repentance and of accepting the gift of grace offered by Jesus Christ, "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).
If there is one thing that is consistent and clear in every volume of scripture, it is the universal call for men to repent of our sins and come unto God. This is only possible because of the Redeemer, but we must repent. I hope there can be consensus on this point. Witnesses include John the Baptist in Mathew 3:
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judæa,And Jesus Christ in Matthew 4:
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (See also Mark 1:15)Christ also warned that "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:5). And in Luke 24, the Resurrected Lord continues this theme:
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,Witnesses also include the Apostles in Mark 6:
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; . . .And as one of many more examples, consider Peter in Acts 2:
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Repentance involves several steps, but surely one of them is a change in behavior, not only ceasing from sin, but becoming "fruitful" in the Gospel - advancing the cause of the Lord. Thus the scriptures speak of bringing forth "fruit meet for repentance." John the Baptist used this phrase in Matt 3 (just a few verses after the call for repentance cited above):
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judæa, and all the region round about Jordan,Paul echoes this theme in testifying to King Agrippa in Acts 26:
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance. . . .
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (See also Luke 3)
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:Similar language is found in the Book of Mormon. In Alma 5:54 and Alma 9:10, Alma refers to bringing forth "works which are meet for repentance," and in Alma 12, he refers to the fruits of repentance in speaking of the day of judgment:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
[W]e must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance.And as Paul explained in Acts 17, the call to repent is universal:
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent. . . .Repentance is essential for salvation. To be forgiven of our sins, we must repent of them, turning to the Atonement of Jesus Christ to gain forgiveness and becoming a new, cleansed person that does not simply continue sinning as before. We are changed, and there are fruits that reflect our repentance, fruits that are suitable for one who has repented. It is not all automatic contrary to our own will, but involves "obedience" - a yielding of our will to God's.
We do not earn out way to heaven by obedience and good works. We are all burdened by our bad works - our sins, whether it be sins of omission or commission. Our only hope is to repent and follow Christ, and repentance involves fruits to match, changes in behavior, obedience to the will of God, good works instead of bad.
posted @ 7:04 PM [Permalink]
216 Comments:
Excellent post!!!! =D
Also, look at Luke 15 and the THREE parables Jesus speaks of...and also notice who Jesus' audience were.
Again, this is an excellent post! Thanks Jeff =)
In all three parables it shows that however hard it is for man to repent (in fact it takes a miracle for us to repent because it makes us consider that WE CANNOT DO IT, paradoxically is the HARDEST WORK), an opposite effect happens in heaven!!
What happens? A celebration! A eureka moment! You can almost hear the angels say, "Well done! It has never been about you or your works! It's always been about God! Woohoo!"
Well, it does depend on our work, at least marginally. If we don't make the effort to change the atonement doesn't take affect. We may well accept the atonement but it won't automatically change our behavior. As we change our works from bad to good we start to greater understand the atonement and we do know it is by Him that this is at all possible. I as many people know the blessings of finding God, desiring to do good instead of bad. I also know that I can still do bad, it takes more effort or work to do good but the blessings of doing good far outweigh anything received by doing dead works.
NM: I added some material this morning in the first two paragraphs. Hope you'll still be OK with that. Let me know if not - sorry about the update. Was out of time yesterday.
As Peter states, God will not change us against our wills, not even if we make a verbal commitment to him but then fail to take any action. We must participate in the process. We cannot afford to spare any effort in our striving to become as he has commanded us to be.
Our works are necessary but not sufficient.
Sure, it's about God. It's also about us. We too have agency, as we are his children. He sent us here to learn and grow. If we sit on our duffs and wait for him to save us until it is "everlastingly too late", it will be a source of great anguish for us and for him.
NM,
Let me see if I can interpret something you said.
""Well done! It has never been about you or your works! It's always been about God! Woohoo!"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me this sounds like, "Well done! It has never been about you or your sin (works), in that you have broken the commandments (works)! That doesn't matter. We don't care if you sin (works). What's important is that you believe in God (faith)!"
So then what's the big deal with telling us to keep the commandments? Is that just fluff? To that I say, "If keeping the commandments is so unnecessary, then don't tell me things like:
Matt. 5:19, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
John 14:15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
John 14:21, "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
Romans 2:5-13, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish wihtout law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judges by the law; (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the the doers of the law shall be justified.
Here I was all this time, taking these scriptures at face value, that it was necessary to keep the commandments, and now I am to believe that they are meaningless?
Could it also mean that it wasn't about Adam and Eve's transgression (works)?
We can't repent (works)? You mean, we can't say, "Father forgive me. I have sinned. I am so sorry and I want to do better and follow thee." Is that meanigless? I know that we don't earn salvation, but aren't we commnanded to repent, and then go and sin no more (John 8:11)?
Jeff,
Once again, this is an excellent post! =)
Tatabug,
BTW, I really appreciated the response you gave to me on Jeff's previous post (Adam and the Fall: God's Plan Thwarted?). I need, as you did, mull over your response!
First, I need to say that you have misunderstood what I said when you rephrased my comment =) God does not take our sin lightly. And sin should NEVER be conflated with human works. The two are categorically different. When I say works - I mean, 'human effort'. Notice that I also pointed to Luke 15? The themes covered in Luke 15 are not 'sin' and 'repentance'. Rather, it is 'human effort' and 'repentance'. Again, I must re-iterate I DID NOT SAY that sin means work. It was a wrong assumption of what I said on your part =)
So, on with the show?
All the quotes you gave to me ARE EXCELLENT! I love all of them! =D
And I guess the trick is for us to put such words penned by the different gospel-writers and also by Paul etc. into their proper context.
So, for this: I'll point you to just one verse in Romans 9. Do you remember the gist of this chapter? Paul asks some unusual questions about God's Sovereignty. He asks the unthinkable! Has God pre-ordained that for His chosen to see His glory and mercy, He also chose others for His wrath?! Not my words - they are Paul's =)
Furthermore, Paul (after declaring some AMAZING things in the previous chapter) become INCREDIBLY DISTRAUGHT. Why? Because his own (his fellow Jewish brothers and sisters) JUST DIDN'T GET IT. His fellow Jews just didn't see the point of Jesus! And to make matters worse, THE GENTILES WERE! Craziness!
So, on with the show:
Pop your head down starting in verse 30&31. And Paul asks, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by FAITH; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law."
First of all, when did Israel first receive The Law? Through Moses, right? And what did the Israelites say when they received The Law? They effectively said, Yes God, we'll do this!" Notice that the motivation in their hearts was that they really thought they could achieve it! Not only that, but they thought they could achieve it THROUGH THEIR OWN STRENGTH...
How do I know this? Look at verse 32...
What does Paul continue to say? "Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone"
EUREKA!
The Israelites then and the Jewish nation in Paul's life-time thought they could achieve the law BY WORKS! And look at what Paul contrasts WORKS with....FAITH!
What the Israelites should have said when The Law was given to Moses was, "God! We can't do this! You demand perfection! We CANNOT DO IT! We need you to do it, so we submit; we need You to do it for us...."
God's Law wasn't solely made for man (as if it were to be WORKED FOR)...but The Law was put firstly to declare HIS PERFECTION and that the standards He requires for anybody to be worthy in His sight is PERFECTION. Secondly, because He demands PERFECTION, we CANNOT ACHIEVE PERFECTION...instead - we look to somebody else who has...
The Law is there to be kept; yes, I agree. But in our keeping of them - we need to know that we CANNOT KEEP THEM - as hard as we might try. Therefore, instead of beating ourselves up over it, we look up and to Him who is the author, perfecter, and sustainer of our faith =) This Divine Law can only be kept AND FULFILLED by Divinity. =) I'll upload another sermon on my make-shift blog entitled, 'God Did Not Spare His Own Son'. Listen to it and tell me what you think?
Confused: And sin should NEVER be conflated with human works. The two are categorically different. When I say works - I mean, 'human effort'.
Don't sins of commission require human effort? Good grief, look at the lengths some people go to in order to pursue a few moments of immorality. Talk about massive and foolish human effort. And then what about sins of omission? Aren't these about NOT putting forth effort where it is required, like failure to worship God, failure to help the sick and the needy, etc.?
Sin is all about human works and effort - either for the wrong objectives or failing to do works for the right objectives. Either way, we offend God. Repentance must involve turning away from sin, which means that we turn toward good works. Human effort is required. If not, why would there be so many repetitive warnings telling us to avoid sin and urging us to do good and keep the commandments? In my opinion, human effort is most certainly involved.
Naturally, our mortal efforts fall short and would be in vain, were it not for the reconciliation, redemption, and justification that is made available through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. But just as sin is the result of misguided human effort or failure to put forth effort, so also does repentance involve human effort as we strive to obey God and replace disobedience with obedience, knowing that it is only through relying on the merits of Christ that we can be saved, as the Book of Mormon so clearly teaches.
Regarding the link between repentance and human effort, consider these works of Paul from 2 Corinthians 7:
8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
When they sorrowed for their sins and began to repent, what desire they showed, what zeal, what -- shall we say? -- effort.
Jeff,
You have said things that are way too complicated for me to understand. It'll take me a few days to comprehend what you've written...
Tatabug,
I've just re-read the verses from Matthew and John (not Romans 2) which you gave to me =)
The one in Matthew 5:19 should be read in the context of verse 20 =) Don't just stop at 19. In fact, read the whole chapter =)
Matthew 5 (for me) is when Jesus clarifies The Law and reminds the disciples around Him the importance of keeping them! Not only does He remind them of The Law's importance, but Jesus also adds a different dimension to it. Notice in verse 21&22 and 27&28? Not only is Jesus reminding His disciples should be kept outwardly, but also (and ALL THE MORE DIFFICULT) inwardly! How often do we (certainly as men do) look at a woman, without thinking lustful thoughts? Be honest =) If in our honesty, we say, "Probably quite a few times" then we admit that we have broken The Law =) Jesus then gives some very harsh alternatives to prevent us from sinning. What does He say? If your arm makes you to stumble - cut it off! If your eye also makes you to stumble - cut that off aswell! Jesus makes it plainly clear how not to make light of 'sin'. =)
Notice how chapter 5 starts. It starts with the beattitudes! And as you read them, you almost get the sense that Jesus is talking to the 'sinners' - the ones who are making a geniune effort to love God, yet in their geniunness, fail. And what's worse is that people around them also know that they fail =/
So, on to verse 19&20: "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. "
The start of verse 19 actually serves as a warning to hypocrites! The latter half of verse 19, is a stepping stone to verse 20! So in 19b, the road to attaining perfection is set (and bear in mind that Jesus in this chapter makes it ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to keep The Law) - Jesus is simply saying, "Walk the talk"; what you say, you must also do.
So, when you get to verse 20, Jesus, on the outset seems to be commending the Scribes and the Pharisees! But know that Jesus IS NOT commending them AT ALL! =) You'll find as you read the gospels is that Jesus is always opposed to the religiousness of the Pharisees and the so-called teachers of The Law! It was clear to see (from Jesus' perspective) that they are hypocrites! They say one thing and do the other. And when such Pharisees did something good, i.e. GOOD WORKS, it was always to look for the praise of man! =)
Read the whole chapter Tatabug. You'll find that Jesus isn't actually saying anything about keeping the commandments as a way for salvation (through works). Jesus says a lot of things in Matthew 5, but in relation to The Law, He makes it quite clear that NO-ONE CAN ACHIEVE IT =)
As for John 14. Again, read the whole chapter. John 14 is one of the most PROFOUND chapters in the Bible...but that'll probably be for another day =)
NM,
I certainly and wholeheartedly agree that we cannot attain to perfection--at least not in this life.
But for us to say that we can't and then not even try is to ignore the admonition by Jesus Christ to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). He didn't say it just to hear himself say it, or to give us the impression that we can't do it, so don't even try. He knows we can't obtain it. But He asks us to be perfect, because that should be our goal. However, when we've done all we can do to get there, and it isn't enough (because there is no doubt it won't be), Christ is there to make up the difference. He will make us perfect.
Christ doesn't want us to feel defeated, to say "we CANNOT KEEP THEM." That attitude is negative and self-defeating. The correct attitude should be, "Lord, you've asked me to keep these commandments, and I will put forth every effort to do as you've asked me, but please know that I am weak and that I will mess up from time to time, and I only ask that you will forgive me, and give me strength to go on in doing thy will."
God does not give us commandments that we can't keep, or that He doesn't provide a way for us to accomplish them. We may have a harder time with some than with others, so we will fail, but we should patiently get back up, dust ourselves off, and keep trying until we've overcome our weakness, and not say, "I just can't do it. Please do it for me."
Sometimes, there will be trials and obstacles in our lives which we cannot overcome, and we can receive strength from the Lord, but it is still our responsibility to work it out until we've done all we can do. When we stand to be judged, the Lord will know whether we've done all we could, and it is then that His grace will take over and make up for our failings. I think we will be very suprised at how merciful God will be with us, as He takes into account our understanding, our intent, and our efforts, but obedience isn't a suggestion.
Also, I'm not sure if you were talking to me specifically, but I'm not a man, just so you know. But I suppose that even a woman isn't excluded from that possibility.
And yes, in Matt. 5, Jesus is talking to the 'sinners.' That would be everyone. I can't disagree with most of your interpretation here, except to say that I don't think it seems like He is in any way commending the scribes and pharisees. What seems apparent to me is that He is saying that you are going to have to do better than the scribes and pharisees if you want to get to heaven, because they aren't going to make it.
You said,
"You'll find that Jesus isn't actually saying anything about keeping the commandments as a way for salvation (through works). Jesus says a lot of things in Matthew 5, but in relation to The Law, He makes it quite clear that NO-ONE CAN ACHIEVE IT =)"
I just have to completely disagree with that statement. Why else does He say "enter into the kingdom of heaven" or "shall be in danger of the judgement" or "cast into hell." These phrases seem to very much indicate that salvation is at stake. No where do I find any implication that no one can achieve it. Once again, I know that we don't 'earn' salvation, but this chapter doesn't say anywhere that these requirements can't be met, at least not in my humble opinion.
Tatabug,
Gah! There I go again, making WRONG assumptions about people! I put my foot in the most awkward places sometimes. My apologies: I automatically thought you were of the male species. =) In that case, what am I doing bearing my soul to the enemy?! That's another one who has gained inside information about how male-people think!
So anyway, I think I've chewed upon what you have said. And for the most part, I agree with you =) God does enable us, of course, to achieve the unachievable. He does give us the strength to do what we can =)
What you may need to realise (and I'd say most of the 'evangelical' umbrella' is opposed this - I'd probably say that T4x4 and Kathleen might also be opposed) is that I align myself with the doctrine of man's Total Depravity. Just type TULIP and Calvin into wikipedia and you should arrive at a page which describes the acronym. The reason why I take such an extreme view in saying (and the use of CAPITAL LETTERS - for added effect) is it seems we are completely and utterly DEAD to our sin. And another thing you might want to know of is something called 'monergism'...(it's all getting a little complicated)...but this is to do with the notion that God alone is involved in EVERY STEP of our salvation. It is to do with:
1) God who chooses us from before the foundation of the world;
2) It is God who quickens us for salvation (and before this, we are dead in our sin)
3) It is God through His Son who absorbed His own wrath so that we might stand in His presence - NOT GUILTY.
4) It is God who continues to give us strength to persevere with the path to follow Him.
Simply put: It is God, God, God. God all the way. And all that man can do is receive, receive, receive...
Sounds crazy, doesn't it? But that's what is so ABSURD and AMAZING about the gospel! =D
So, yes, we do work to keep the commandments, we do strive to do GOOD WORKS...but paradoxically it is and has always been God working in us and through us =)
It's not that mind-bending; but to appropriate it in the way that we live our day-to-day is something else =) But I have to say, it's the most LIBERATING NEWS I've ever heard. I never, EVER have to depend on my own strength any longer (this kind of news should make us breath a sigh of relief more than anything); too many times I have failed keeping this, that n' the other up.
Just let go and let God =) Please know that 'letting go' is (paradoxically) THE HARDEST WORK - because to 'let go' is to give up our pride, it is to give up the idea that we can do it. The sooner we can let God, the more RADICAL our christian lives can be, right? To know that God IS FOR ME and NOT AGAINST ME?! To know that this OMNIPOTENT God gives me strength?! And that He has my life in His hands EVEN in suffering?! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?! =D
Tatabug,
Also, I think this all ties in with Jeff's post on 'repentance'.
Repentance simply means a-turning-away-from and to go the opposite way. And ultimately, 'sin' is encapsulated in this statement, "God? Thanks, but no thanks; I'd rather go my own way".
None of us truly love God and want Him to have reign in our lives; if we do, we err on using Him on our terms and when it's appropriate for us. We put 'ME' where God should be. Effectively, this is the ultimate expression of sin - in the way that we have broken the highest commandment: that we should love God with all our hearts, mind and strength.
So, to repent of our sin, simply means to turn away from 'ME'! And turn to Him! As soon as this happens, Jesus describes in Luke 15 that there is CELEBRATION in heaven!
Repentance IS the hardest WORK - because SELF is too precious to let go.
NM,
Just let go and let God =) Please know that 'letting go' is (paradoxically) THE HARDEST WORK - because to 'let go' is to give up our pride, it is to give up the idea that we can do it. The sooner we can let God, the more RADICAL our christian lives can be, right? To know that God IS FOR ME and NOT AGAINST ME?! To know that this OMNIPOTENT God gives me strength?! And that He has my life in His hands EVEN in suffering?! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?! =D
I wholeheartedly agree with, I think, everything you've said...except for one part, and maybe this is just semantics, but where you say "it is to give up the idea that we can do it." I don't belive God is doing the work for us. He helps us do it, and we need His help, but we go through agony in trying to overcome our weaknesses. If we weren't doing anything, we wouldn't be suffering.
I just knew we had more beliefs in common than we realized. We LDS just like to emphasize, even though we know that grace key, that works are essential. Too many protestants think that grace is ALL you need. My grandmother, for instance, is a Baptist. She believes that once a person is "saved," they are always saved, and NOTHING they can do after that will result in them going to "hell." But she will then say that a person who is truly saved won't do anything that would be egregious.
Much as Paul put a lot of emphasis on grace and faith, since his audience consisted largely of those who grew up under Mosaic Law and didn't understand the role of the Savior in their salvation, so do we, who live in an environment of protestants who believe that grace is all one needs for salvation, try to emphasize the need for works. There is a delicate balance there, which we acknowledge, but that many take to extremes. Perhaps a lot of it comes down to a lack of understanding. Sometimes, it seems we speak two different languages, but in reality, our beliefs are very similar.
Tatabug,
You really made me giggle when you said, "Much as Paul put a lot of emphasis on grace and faith, since his audience consisted largely of those who grew up under Mosaic Law and didn't understand the role of the Savior in their salvation, so do we, who live in an environment of protestants who believe that grace is all one needs for salvation, try to emphasize the need for works."
=D
I guess this is the whole point of the book of James =D James talked SO MUCH about WORKS! In fact, anyone who doesn't know about Christianity who might first read James, might be mistaken that Christianity is just like the rest of the world...that to succeed, we need to put effort into ourselves.
I know this doesn't really make much sense, but if we were to run along the same logic as you proposed above, do you think that if the Pharisees did the opposite and not concentrated so much on doing their self-glorifying works and were more than ready to accept Jesus as their Messiah, that Jesus might then have told them to concentrate on works?!!? And to quit putting so much emphasis on Himself as their Redeemer?!? Hahahaha!! It doesn't really make that much sense I know, but please humour me with this one =)
Seriously though, it wasn't just Paul who wrote about grace and faith. Jesus, by His example (certainly what we can see from the gospel writers), rebuked the Pharisees for all their pomp and religiousness. Instead, Jesus had the audacity to say, "Look to me! I'm am the way to the Father, I am the truth, I am the life!"...
You have a wise grandma =) You know what? This concept of 'grace' is difficult even within evangelicalism; I still do believe that there are many who profess to be Christians, but still they rely upon themselves. And whenever hardships come about, they crumble - they shake their fists at God; or they turn to the mental-health professional who can give them a few anti-depressants to ride out the storm, or whatever instead of simply resting on His mighty, sovereign and infinitely powerful hand. =(
(BookSlinger, this might be of interest to you) Tatabug (and with Jeff's permission) this is my church: it is called Woodlands Evangelical Church. We recently planted another church on the other side of town, which it seems by God's grace is doing well - a few teething problems, but hey-ho =)
Anyway, again if it's ok with Jeff, can I point to a talk given by a lovely Irish lady on the subject of 'grace'? The series is called, 'Glimpses of Grace' and I want to link to the third (session 3) of her talks...she was lovely, about 5 feet tall, brown curly hair and had a serious evangeli-grin. Oh I know, instead I'll provide a link from my make-shift blog.
NM,
Sigh...And we were making such good progress.
I'm in shock! Tatabug is female?!? I didn't even think about it. I guess that's due to the anonymity of the internet.
What, you think I'll allow links to an off-topic non-LDS talk just because the author is a lovely Irish lady with curly hair? I may be male, but I'm not that superficial. But the part about the evangelical grin is hard to resist. Go ahead, NM.
Tatabug,
What?! What was the sigh for? Have we taken two steps back?
Dear Jeff,
Cracking post - this is exactly how the 'true repentance' process should be approached by both existing Christians in need and any newcomers to Christianity!
Dear Tatabug and NM,
You are not very far away in your comments to each other.
From what I have read into, the keywords that Jeff has described but not mentioned are SANCTIFICATION through the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. This is the part where we fully submit our ALL / 100% (NM pointed this out - thanks) to Jesus and where we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us. Human effort is involved but our focus is on Jesus and we are lead (by choice!) in the Spirit. No force is involved on the Spirit's part - all that He asks is for us to consider His question - which way do we prefer....?
Guess what Tatabug - I am sorry but on this next part, I must disagree with you : you said "Christ doesn't want us to feel defeated, to say "we CANNOT KEEP THEM." That attitude is negative and self-defeating. The correct attitude should be, "Lord, you've asked me to keep these commandments, and I will put forth every effort to do as you've asked me, but please know that I am weak and that I will mess up from time to time, and I only ask that you will forgive me, and give me strength to go on in doing thy will."
God does not give us commandments that we can't keep, or that He doesn't provide a way for us to accomplish them. We may have a harder time with some than with others, so we will fail, but we should patiently get back up, dust ourselves off, and keep trying until we've overcome our weakness, and not say, 'I just can't do it. Please do it for me.' "
If one has given 100% to Jesus and accepted the Holy Spirit, is failure an option ? At this point sin can be overcome (Jude 24,25, 2Peter2:9 & Rom6:14) not by our efforts or actions, but by the Spirit leading us. The promise that is also in Philippians 2:5 can also apply - If one has the mind of Jesus, just think exactly what can be achieved!
Please also read Romans 8:1&2 . What does this mean ? What is the law of the Spirit?
The 10 commandments have been hinted at but not really discussed. This next question is again to all - How many of the commenters have in the last month : committed adultery, stolen something, coveted the neighbours wife or car or worshipped idols? No - why not ? Could it be that this is an abomination to your own Christian psyche? Isn't it that adopting the mind of Jesus, finds no delight in those matters that would abhor God ? Then ask yourself the same questions that NM asked : how many have looked longingly at the opposite sex in a lustful manner (the media and hollywood heighten these senses exposing images all around us), how many have looked for loopholes in a tax return or purchased something that was definitely and mistakenly underpriced ? These are the more sinister temptations that Jesus is referring to - those of the heart that can not always be seen or judged by man.
Unfortunately, the Sabbath commandment is the most deceptively contrived and ignored commandment in modern times - but that's a whole different topic.
Still - great post and I look forward to some 'interesting' replies.
Teranno4x4
Jeff,
Thank you for the permission thing =) My plan worked: you do know that the evangeli-grin was a hook right? =)
T4x4,
Thank you for your observations. Yes, sancitification is something else that might be worth discussing...
I get very excited about justification, but I don't FULLY know the work of the Holy Spirit in terms of sanctification...
Evanglicals often get critized (normally by the Charismatics)about the work of the Trinity in our lives, that is: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Bible... =)
*that was a joke by the way*
Dear NM,
You wrote some excellent observations yourself, as did Tatabug (she has my comment where I disagreed when she stated 'that we can not overcome' - we can through the Spirit). Apart from that her comments were well thought too.
Jeff well discussed and described sorrow in sin, the need for repentance, repentance, justification, obedience / commandment keeping and then goes on to describe human works. I see the same, but I also see a greater power at work leading, that Jeff also describes in places and this part is the key. This is the sanctification process through the power of the Holy Spirit that delivers the 'FRUITS'.
Man can be sinless (not perfect [yet]) - we still have the history of our sin that will be blotted out with the blood of Jesus. We can follow in Jesus' footsteps as our time carries on. This daily walk is sanctification and it will only end with our translation at the second coming of Jesus.
I've not really fully understood the differences between the 'evangelicals and charismatics', so please forgive my ignorance in this respect. Be careful, some may take your joke literally.
I look to the Bible as my guide to Jesus, and together with the Spirit - I believe in the promise that I too, can overcome sin.
Teranno4x4
NM,
The sigh was a sad sort of sigh. It seemed as though we were finding common ground, but then your comment just before my sigh comment seemed to suggest differently. But perhaps I didn't read closely enough. It is kind of hard to understand the point you were trying to make.
Teranno4x4,
I can't really disagree with anything you've said. I would like to point out, however, in regards to your disagreement with me, that I don't disagree with you. Perhaps you've misunderstood what I meant. By your own comment, you basically said that when we give 100%, the Lord can make up the rest for us. That is basically what I was saying. The part about "I just can't do it. Please do it for me," may be the source of the confusion. That was only meant to apply to one who, at the outset, has decided that something is too hard for them, and so they aren't even going to try, but are going to rely on the Lord to do it for them. I was only trying to demonstrate the point that we must always put forth our best efforts in order to access grace.
The Lord is there to give us strength to overcome that which we through our own ability and effort cannot do. We do all we can and the Lord makes up the difference. Does that sound better?
In Matthew 5:48, as tatabug pointed out, Jesus tells us to be perfect. Quite a hefty requirement when taken at face value in the English language. The greek work, telios, that is translated as “perfect”, could be better translated as “complete” or “finished” or “fully developed”. So, instead we would read “Be ye therefore complete” or “Be ye therefore fully developed”.
How are we “complete”? We become complete as we come to Christ and give Him all that we have and His grace and perfection makes up for all our shortcomings. We give him our meager offerings (a few talents) and He adds His infinity to it and we are completed – or perfected if you prefer. It seems like, from the comments given here, that we are all in agreement on this point – that after all we can do, it is still not sufficient and Christ’s grace is what bridges the unbridgeable gap.
I love how this is supported so well by that very unbiblical author, Moroni, in the last comment of the Book of Mormon when he asks us to come to Christ and be perfected in Christ – not “in ourselves” but “in him”.
“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.” (Moroni 10:32-33)
dave d,
Great comment and thanks for reminding me of that scripture in Moroni. NM might even like that one.
Dear Tatabug,
Discussing sanctification .....
I think that you are placing my comments into your own understanding and finding that they are in agreement.
I think that I understood you correctly - I apologise if not in advance. I will try to explain what I am meaning again.
You seemed to suggest that God doesn't want us to fail. I agree with this (we have been sent the Holy Spirit as 'the Comforter').
Then you go on to say : "I am weak and that I will mess up from time to time, and I only ask that you will forgive me...."
My point was that if we empty ourselves of 'self' 100%, lay ourselves in God's hands and say "I am 100% yours dear Lord", once the Holy Spirit answers us and leads us - can we fail ? It is through a result of 100% presence of the power of the Holy Spirit - no effort from self otherwise we would not overcome! And we would continue to fall, and to fall, and to fall ..... If we know this concept as I describe above, how many times should we be forgiven ? When does our request for forgiveness become a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit after when we have wilfully gone astray?
I am sorry Tatabug not making myself clearer before. Can you see the subtle differences now from what I wrote above ?
I agree with Dave D that Jesus DOES bridge the gap for our failing, but this is in the repentance stage still under justification. Once we are justified, cleansed from sin and forgiven, that is when the sanctification process starts. Here there is no room for repeating sin if one is 100% under the influence of the power of the Holy Spirit. Some people do not take kindly to a 'perfectionist' ideal. I do not believe in perfectionism until after the second coming, so that is why I preferred the word 'sinless'.
If you re-read the Bible texts that I offered in light of this, then your understanding of my meaning should change.
Sorry for the initial confusion,
Teranno4x4
T4x4,
Please forgive my misunderstanding. I see now where we may differ. It is our belief that to obtain and maintain the power of the Holy Ghost in our lives that it takes constant vigilance and attention to keep ourselves worthy of his power in our lives.
Helaman 4:24 says, And they saw that they had become weak, like unto their brethren, the Lamanites, and that the Spirit of the Lord did no more preserve them; yea, it had withdrawn from them because the Spirit doth not dwell in unholy temples--
Tatabug,
I am sorry that I gave you the wrong impression. I do agree with you that there are some very obvious similarities with our two beliefs =) Please don't sigh, and please don't give up on me. This forum is a good way for us to learn from each other; in fact, I think I have learned more about the LDS faith here than any other site. Such are the wonders of freedom of speech...
I think also, the reason why I probably didn't want to show the obvious similarities is because I really don't want to show that it has ANYTHING to do with us at all =) I know it sounds pedantic on my part but hopefully I can show you a good argument for why this is so?
The doctrine of sovereign grace really comes into its own (it comes ALIVE), during times of personal disaster.
Do you remember what I said about certain so-called Christians within evangelicalism who profess this 'grace alone, faith alone' in their lives? But when faced with some sort of tragedy, be it a job loss, a bereavement, a relationship breakdown, severe depression, anxiety etc. such doctrines are thrown out the window?
What we sing about God being our rock and foundation and when we sing about His majesty, His wonder etc. on a sunday morning is immediately forgotten when the rubber hits the road! I ask myself, "Why?" Why is it that we are more than happy to sing His praises when life is going well? But when disaster strikes, we might not necessarily hold our fists up at God, but what we do though is LOOK TO OURSELVES for help. What has happened to the songs we sing on a Sunday morning?!
I think the life of Job is an important lesson for us all =)
The doctrine of Sovereign Grace really comes into its own during those times when we think God has left us to suffer...
It is during these times of hardship that WE REALLY CANNOT DO ANYTHING. I think I've mentioned this before: we are faced with two possible choices.
1) Look to ourselves for help.
2) Eat our pride, know that we can't dig ourselves out of the rut that we have found ourselves in and look to God for help.
It's VERY easy for us to discuss LDS doctrine vs. Evangelical doctrine or whatever, and easy for us to sing His praises when times are good. But when trouble comes, I wonder how many of us look into ourselves for help?
I guess this is where Satan comes in, right? Satan actually plays fair. Satan [rightly] accuses for the fact that we are worthless; that we are sinful; that we are failures...
But it seems (and the absurdity of the message of the Bible) is that it is by faith that Jesus has already done the work that we are no longer guilty! Do you see just how amazingly absurd sovereign grace is? Please say YES!
This is why Jesus had so much compassion for 'sinners' (those who according to society's eyes were OBVIOUS REJECTS). Remember, Jesus did not come into the world to save the righteous (those who think they can do it), but He came to save SINNERS (those who know that they are good for nothing). =) These 'sinners' that Jesus spent so much time with, were those who KNEW that there was nothing else they could depend on, except for Jesus =) All they had was a man who claimed to be the Messiah! What faith! But then again, there was nothing else that they could really depend upon...
It is the same with us who live in 21st Century western society today. It is very hard for us to understand hardships because we all live in a relatively well-off society =) It's only when things like job-loss or bereavement or relationship breakdown occur, that we get a taste of the REALITY OF THIS WORLD. =)
Here's the crunch for us who seek to follow Him (I think we could all say this, whether we be Evangelical Christians or LDS or whatever): when life hits disaster, who do we immediately depend upon?
Tatabug, I hope you can understand why I say that we just cannot do it. Our true colours show only when we are at our utmost desperation. We are at our utmost desperation because we cannot depend upon anyone - not even our spouses, our children, our wider families, our friends nor ourselves...but BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH (because this is all that we have), we have life in Jesus =)
And I guess (this is a bit of a personal confession) this is what makes me struggle so much at work. Everyday, I meet kids who are so desperate for help, so much so, that they and their parents will look to anything for help =(
So, whilst it may seem laudable to be in a job which aims to give support, what good am I actually doing when the kind of support that I give has NOTHING at all to do with Jesus? Do you see the dilemma? When all I want to say to all of them is, "Please, repent". That is, "Please, don't look to yourselves for help, turn and head toward a new direction...look to Jesus because no-one including yourself can help you."
Write off the doctrine of 'Man's Total Depravity'? Makes us think twice doesn't it?
NM,
The Lord does not view us as worthless or as failures. We are of great worth to Him which is why He gave His life for ours. He sees within us the potential to do great things.
Even the righteous sin. No one (save Jesus) is without sin, so He came for all of us, even the righteous. Even the righteous are smart enough to know that they are sinners. If they don't, then they probably aren't very righteous.
For us, the issue is not to emphasize grace or works above another, but to show that the two are interconnected. Both are ineffectual on their own. As C.S. Lewis put it, "Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary."
There is nothing wrong with taking responsibility for our actions. There is also nothing wrong with admitting that we've done all we can do, and that we need help to finish the job.
You keep throwing around the term sovereign grace, but I have to admit that I really don't understand what you mean by this. Nor do I understand why anything that is supposedly good could be considered absurd. Wouldn't that imply that it is unreasonable. So I guess until I understand better what you mean, I really can't say "YES."
And I totally disagree that we are powerless to help ourselves. No, we cannot save ourselves, but we can much to overcome temptation and weaknesses. That isn't to say that we can do it all without drawing upon the powers of heaven to help us, but we aren't powerless to take control of our lives and bring to pass much righteousness.
Dear Tatabug,
This is the whole point that I was making to you.
Your last paragraph to NM describes the processes of repentance and justification. These are our acts / responses that are necessary.
Then comes sanctification that is a whole NEW experience. It is walking forward towards heaven being led 100% by the power of the Holy Spirit (our choice again). Should we 'consciously' choose to backslide or turn in the opposite direction whilst under this Divine power (eg. fornicate, steal, lie etc...) as temptations from the devil are hurled at us, how can the Holy Spirit remain in us. There is much truth in your own doctrinal quote from Helaman (whatever else I may think the history of the situation).
Unconsciously, we should continue walking in the Spirit as one that is saved, leaping over the sinful hurdles - but still the choice is ours....
BTW NM, I agree with most of your comments to Tatabug, except when you say that the devil plays fair. he is the instigator of the marital breakdowns (lustful affairs etc), the drunken beatings, the loss of careers, the stresses that we face daily. he plays unfair in how he manipulates all situations on earth to his own advantage in wanting to blame, accuse and attack God on our behalf, because we are the stupid fools that suffer him willingly. satan has never played fair.
Teranno4x4
T4x4,
I agree with you about justification and sanctification up to the part where you say "It is through a result of 100% presence of the power of the Holy Spirit - no effort from self otherwise we would not overcome!" Like I said, it takes constant effort and attention to our thoughts and actions in order to maintain the presence of the Holy Spirit. That's where our effort comes in. You said, "Should we 'consciously' choose to backslide or turn in the opposite direction whilst under this Divine power (eg. fornicate, steal, lie etc...) as temptations from the devil are hurled at us, how can the Holy Spirit remain in us." I agree.
You also said, "My point was that if we empty ourselves of 'self' 100%, lay ourselves in God's hands and say 'I am 100% yours dear Lord', once the Holy Spirit answers us and leads us - can we fail ?" I think that is a very simplistic way of looking at it. We may have all the faith in the world, and yet still it is up to us to "work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). We may have the Spirit with us, but that doesn't always guarantee success. There are too many variables involved, and to put God in the position of solving all our problems if we only have enough faith, is a potential faith destroyer in itself. In all things we must have the attitude of "remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done" (Luke 22:42).
(I have a feeling I'm really in for it now.)
Dear Tatabug,
You are not in for anything negative - I am glad that we can discuss the finer points - this is how we can learn from each other. I am enjoying your comments and you have already offered much thoughtful input to make me think carefully about what DO I consider important enough to believe in....
1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
** No sin committed if one follows the path that God has made for us to recognise - how ? Through following the guidance of the Holy Spirit!**
Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
** Keywords - able to keep you from falling. Keep ourselves from falling ? No - 'Unto Him' does this **
2Peter2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
**who does the action here - The Lord!**
Romans 6 (beautiful chapter!)
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God **JUSTIFICATION**, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. **SANCTIFICATION**
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
**Who forbids?**
Thanks for the correnspondence in the correct Spirit.
Teranno4x4
To doubt these promises (revealed through different authors) is to doubt the power of the Godhead combined to secure our eternal safe-keeping. That questions our faith - not a potential point of failure.
Have you trusted or had faith to THAT extent yet ? Scary question - isn't it ?
T4x4,
Just needing to clarify to understand whether or not we are in agreement.
Some of the scriptures you suggest seem to deal with our day to day struggles in dealing with temptation. Others seem to deal with our eternal salvation. I'm not sure how you are applying these scriptures, so I am hesitant to comment directly on them.
Justified and sanctified persons can fall from grace, which is why we must always be watchful and prayerful and frequently renewing our covenants with God. It is only through God that we can be justified and sanctified, but we must get to a point where we are worthy to be justified and sanctified and we must continue on that path, lest we fall.
Tatabug,
WHAT?! Did you say we can fall from grace? Is this something that is commonly taught in LDS doctrine Jeff?
This is all getting very, VERY interesting. By the way, I'm really enjoying the conversation between you and T4x4 =)
NM,
Yes, that's what I said. Got a problem with it?
Doctrine and Covenants 20:30-33:
30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true;
31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength.
32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;
33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation;
Errm, no I don't think I have a problem with you believing it Tatabug. It is, after all, a central tenet to LDS theology as you have kindly shown =)
NM,
Don't worry, I'm just playing with you. But I assume that you have a different opinion on the issue.
I totally CAVED IN! I really thought I'd pressed another button there!
Tatabug quoted :
"32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;
33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation;"
There is always a possibility : this is our choice. Once sanctified, we do not become robots, we still need to listen to and heed the calling / leading of the Holy Spirit. This is our freedom from sin calling. What can be more important in our lives.... ?
What can the church do ? If a member chooses to say an unkind word or do an unkind act, is a praying church going to prevent it? Is satan going to be at work more in the ghettos where sin is rife and his tools are many, or in the church where all seemingly is pristine and well presented and his tools are very few. Here lies the deceptiveness of the whole issue and why the NEED for santification in everyone's Christian walk is ABSOLUTELY necessary. Spiritual discernment is the key to overcoming so that we do not fall.
The notion that one can lose his or her salvation is something that leaves me bewildered and confused. =/
Reformed doctrine obviously states that those whom God has called - He keeps, no matter what. And then there are those who are Armenians (usually Methodism) who are pro-man's will, and ultimately that man can lose their salvation.
On a practical level, I know a few of my close friends who seem to have fallen away =( It's interesting that the reason for their falling away were due to personal and unexpected disasters. I guess this is what I mean when I said that in such situations, we are faced with two options:
1) to rely upon our own strength;
2) to rely upon God for strength.
The first option is the one which we seem to naturally home in on. And if we happen to be successful with helping ourselves, then what use is God? It might then be that we start to doubt first of all, God's goodness to us. i.e. how can God love me when He let this happen to me? (Job is a good example of this - during his accusatory phase). We might then start to doubt His existence...
Spiritually speaking, it might be at this time when demons come to whisper in our ears, that to go our own way is much more practical, more beneficial etc...
Our second option is when we repent, when even in suffering, we search through prayer, fasting etc. for God's divine work. Remember Romans 8:28? That ALL THINGS work together for good to those who love God and are called according to HIS PURPOSE. The best example is again Job - after his accusatory phase when Job is HUMBLED as God declares His SOVEREIGNTY to him =) In Job's suffering, He ends up praising God.
Personally speaking (and please note that I can only go by my own experience with this one) is that once a person (in a state of utter desperation) calls out to God for salvation - he/she will never lose it. And instead - as with many that I know (in good times and bad), praise Him for all that He is worth =)
From my personal experience, I know I can't make it in this life without God. He saved me from a near-death experience. So, for me to experience anything else similar and knowing that God miraculously saved me, what can I do but rely on Him for the rest of my life?
=)
If God has chosen you from the before the foundation of the world, He will weave His will and His purpose into those He has called =) - no matter what it takes... He is, after all, sovereign.
NM, said:
Reformed doctrine obviously states that those whom God has called - He keeps, no matter what."
This is what the LDS church calls having your calling and election made sure and the standards are higher that what most christians believe. Just excepting Jesus Christ is the Son of God and asking for forgiveness for sins.
NM, said:
Reformed doctrine obviously states that those whom God has called - He keeps, no matter what."
This is what the LDS church calls having your calling and election made sure and the standards are higher that what most christians believe. Just excepting Jesus Christ is the Son of God and asking for forgiveness for sins.
NM,
Generally Mormons believe that man can live without God from the stand point they do nothing to follow Him or ask for His help, but salvation and resurrection free because Christs atonement and exaltation is earned by a combination of works and grace. If a person comes to a point where their calling and election is made sure then they would have to knowly turn around and fight aginst God. Like Satan and Judis.
Anonymous,
Please, please, please listen to me. Salvation is not earned. We do not work for our salvation; we certainly do not mix the two (grace and works) either. Again, good works is always in response to receiving grace.
If you place an emphasis on 'earning', you put God as your debtor. God is no man's debtor. Please understand the weight of what I am trying to say...I urge you to reconsider your position; not because you are a LDS or anything. I would also say what I say to you to anyone who seeks to follow Jesus =)
Simply receive and believe in His name. Bear this in mind for when you are in your most desperate of situations; God will show His Sovereignty in your life when you approach Him in all humility =)
NM,
"Please, please, please listen to me. Salvation is not earned."
Please, please, please, listen to me closer I did not say that, it is a free gift.....! However, if I want it in the earned in my mind you can't over come my free agence and brain wash me different.
If you place an emphasis on 'earning', you put God as your debtor.
We are the debtor, however we will always disagree. Because I have known Christians that told me that we can be saved just by excepting Jesus Christ name then doing nothing else. I know this is a false doctrine, you must put forth some effort ( we, the Mormons call this works) baptism, attend church, pay tithing. These and many more are nessary not to earn but are nessary (works) ... by their fruits ye shall know them. If you produce nothing then and are luke warm then you will be spued out. You can do noting according to you believes but don't go agins the scriptures and ask me to reconsider what I know is true. Do be so nit pick about a word when most normal people know what works, earn, service, produce, all mean. Effort is required per. New Testiment teachings.
So be it Anonymous =/
NM,
Don't lose any sleep - the 'anon' above has just declared to all that he is already brainwashed....
You know, I much prefer good arguments for things I don't believe than bad arguments for things I do.
Thanks for your patient discourse, NM!
But I'd also like to thank the non-anonymous LDS participants here for their generally excellent comments also!
"Don't lose any sleep - the 'anon' above has just declared to all that he is already brainwashed...."
All you good christians have been say this and a lot more evil things about me and my church, so I thought I would just direct it toward me. You good loving christians can't hurt me any more.
Any other evil things you would like to say about me and my church?
I sure love all you good christians out there.
Sorry, I am not very good at this and don't always have a lot of time. I'll will try to do better.
Dear Anon,
I was using your own words ("brain wash me different") - not mine. There was nothing personally abusive - it was intended jovially.
I love you (purely from a Christian perspective of course) as much as any other commenter who has contributed.
You're being a bit harsh on the 'general' Christian which I think is quite unfounded. We are not all 'anti LDS members' we just choose not to believe in Joseph Smith's effort...
Jeff,
T4x4 brought up the interesting subject of sanctification. What are your thoughts?
Anonymous (6:55 AM, November 16, 2007),
Would you mind taking up a 'handle'; a screen name of some sort? I get so INCREDIBLY confused with the many anonym(i?)
NM,
Here's what I think. I think that Paul has been completely misunderstood by many. Justification by faith alone is completely refuted by the words of Christ and the words of James, and even by the words of Paul himself.
If you take the words of Paul at face value that say "man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," then you have to ignore James when he says, "faith without works is dead," and you have to ignore Christ when He says, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments," or "Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal," or "he that endureth to the end shall be saved," or "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," not to even mention the Sermon on the Mount.
So what one is left with when considering such teachings in light of the apparently contradictory teachings by Paul of justification by faith alone, is to either ignore them, or try to reconcile them with what Paul teaches. But I think most of mainstream Christianity tries to ignore the teachings of James and the teachings of Christ which suggest that works are necessary, instead of reconciling these valid teachings with the idea that Paul was referring to the dead works of the law which were fulfilled through Christ's atonement.
And if you don't think that a person can fall from grace, then perhaps you need to carefully consider these scriptures: 1 Cor. 10:12, Hebrews 3:12-14, and Gal. 5:4.
Tatabug,
I really appreciate your last comment; and to be honest with you, as I said in an earlier post: the notion that one can lose his salvation is something I find bewildering and confusing =/ Meaning, I don't really know where I stand with this issue =)
I don't think that people have misunderstood Paul at all with regard to 'faith alone, grace alone' =) This is worth a whole essay, so I'll just leave it at the point where I can only say that I disagree =)
The two of the three passages of scripture certainly uphold the notion that man CAN fall away =) (these were I Cor 10:12 & Hebrews 3:12-14)...unfortunately, I don't think the Galatians one did =) In fact, the whole book of Galatians' purpose is Paul's warning to the Galatian church is NOT TO ADOPT the old ways, that is - Paul urges them not to WORK in order to gain salvation =) In fact, Galatians 5:4 is a good summary of Paul's letter: "You who are trying to justify yourselves by the law - DON'T! You really have fallen from grace!" Do you see my point?
Can I just interject something at this point? I really appreciate our dialogue. I am learning a lot from you =)
But yes, ICor & Heb does point to what you said...I think. =)
NM,
With regard to Galatians, you are correct in saying that Paul was trying to convince the Christians not to adopt the old ways of the Mosaic Law which were fulfilled upon Christ's atonement. But that applied specifically to the law of carnal commands and much of the ceremonial law. The laws of faith, repentance, baptism, and remission of sins, as well as the Ten Commandments, were not done away. Those things remained in effect, as they do today. That's why Jesus taught faith, repentance, baptism, and obedience to the commandments. So, in Galatians 5:4, he is saying that those who've been given the higher law, will fall if they choose to fall back into the keeping of the lesser law.
I think agreeing to disagree is a great way to end this conversation. However, I am still very curious to know how someone, such as yourself, reconciles the teachings of Jesus and James regarding obedience with the concept of justification by faith alone. It has always been a puzzle to me, and I hope you don't mind explaining that to me. I told you about my grandmother, and though we've talked a lot about this issue, she's never explained how she reconciles the issue. I'm not even sure that she can, which is troubling to me.
Tatabug,
Again, thank you for your response.
Before I begin, did you get to listen to that talk? You know, the guest speaker that we had at my church? If you have not, then I'd really like to point you to her as she gives an excellent way of reconciling the 'law' and 'grace'.
Just so you know, I have not abandoned The Law at all. The law, given by God is there to remind me of His perfection =) And remember, Jesus said Himself that He did not come to abolish The Law, but to fulfill it =)
It is expedient for me to live BY the law; I haven't left it by the wayside. When Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments", it was a way of saying, if you love Jesus - appreciate that He is perfect! =D
Unfortunately, by trying to keep the law (and I think you and I will agree on this one) is that we will inevitably fail. Honestly speaking, I break at least 7 of the ten commandments each day; and as a guy, I probably break the law not to commit adultery at least every 7 seconds (as statisticians would have us to believe). So, where does that leave me?
The Irish-lady-speaker-person commented that we need to learn how to utilise both grace and law. She gave the picture of having both a fork and knife to eat a steak. Please understand: I have not abandoned the law at all =)
It's just that in my non-abandonment-of-the-law, I have come to an honest conclusion that I am a failure. God gave the law to Moses, not for it to be worked at, b