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Saturday, November 10, 2007

Fruits Meet for Repentance

Perhaps the endless repetitive arguments over salvation and the role of works and obedience would be more easily resolved if we focused on repentance rather than obedience and commandment keeping. Some critics think that our teachings on obedience, keeping commandments, and doing good is an expression of pride, of thinking that we can earn our way to heaven without relying on grace, of thinking that Jesus somehow is not enough. Quite the opposite. For the converted Christian, I would suggest that the desire to obey, to serve God, and to keep the commandments that God has given expresses a recognition that we are sinners, that we have fallen, that Jesus is our only hope, and that we wish to and must follow Him. Recognizing our sinful and hopeless state without Christ, we are led by the Spirit of God to repent of our sins and to begin obeying God instead.

Obedience is intimately linked to repentance. Real Christians aren't obeying God because they think they are holier than everyone else and saving themselves through good works. They are obeying because they recognize that they are sinners and are repenting of their sins and seeking to follow God and separate themselves from their old ways. Obedience is an active expression of repentance and of accepting the gift of grace offered by Jesus Christ, "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).

If there is one thing that is consistent and clear in every volume of scripture, it is the universal call for men to repent of our sins and come unto God. This is only possible because of the Redeemer, but we must repent. I hope there can be consensus on this point. Witnesses include John the Baptist in Mathew 3:
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judæa,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
And Jesus Christ in Matthew 4:
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (See also Mark 1:15)
Christ also warned that "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:5). And in Luke 24, the Resurrected Lord continues this theme:
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Witnesses also include the Apostles in Mark 6:
7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; . . .
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
And as one of many more examples, consider Peter in Acts 2:
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Repentance involves several steps, but surely one of them is a change in behavior, not only ceasing from sin, but becoming "fruitful" in the Gospel - advancing the cause of the Lord. Thus the scriptures speak of bringing forth "fruit meet for repentance." John the Baptist used this phrase in Matt 3 (just a few verses after the call for repentance cited above):
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judæa, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance. . . .
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (See also Luke 3)
Paul echoes this theme in testifying to King Agrippa in Acts 26:
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Similar language is found in the Book of Mormon. In Alma 5:54 and Alma 9:10, Alma refers to bringing forth "works which are meet for repentance," and in Alma 12, he refers to the fruits of repentance in speaking of the day of judgment:
[W]e must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance.
And as Paul explained in Acts 17, the call to repent is universal:
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent. . . .
Repentance is essential for salvation. To be forgiven of our sins, we must repent of them, turning to the Atonement of Jesus Christ to gain forgiveness and becoming a new, cleansed person that does not simply continue sinning as before. We are changed, and there are fruits that reflect our repentance, fruits that are suitable for one who has repented. It is not all automatic contrary to our own will, but involves "obedience" - a yielding of our will to God's.

We do not earn out way to heaven by obedience and good works. We are all burdened by our bad works - our sins, whether it be sins of omission or commission. Our only hope is to repent and follow Christ, and repentance involves fruits to match, changes in behavior, obedience to the will of God, good works instead of bad.

218 comments:

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NM said...

Excellent post!!!! =D

Also, look at Luke 15 and the THREE parables Jesus speaks of...and also notice who Jesus' audience were.

Again, this is an excellent post! Thanks Jeff =)

NM said...

In all three parables it shows that however hard it is for man to repent (in fact it takes a miracle for us to repent because it makes us consider that WE CANNOT DO IT, paradoxically is the HARDEST WORK), an opposite effect happens in heaven!!

What happens? A celebration! A eureka moment! You can almost hear the angels say, "Well done! It has never been about you or your works! It's always been about God! Woohoo!"

Peter said...

Well, it does depend on our work, at least marginally. If we don't make the effort to change the atonement doesn't take affect. We may well accept the atonement but it won't automatically change our behavior. As we change our works from bad to good we start to greater understand the atonement and we do know it is by Him that this is at all possible. I as many people know the blessings of finding God, desiring to do good instead of bad. I also know that I can still do bad, it takes more effort or work to do good but the blessings of doing good far outweigh anything received by doing dead works.

Mormanity said...

NM: I added some material this morning in the first two paragraphs. Hope you'll still be OK with that. Let me know if not - sorry about the update. Was out of time yesterday.

Pops said...

As Peter states, God will not change us against our wills, not even if we make a verbal commitment to him but then fail to take any action. We must participate in the process. We cannot afford to spare any effort in our striving to become as he has commanded us to be.

Our works are necessary but not sufficient.

Sure, it's about God. It's also about us. We too have agency, as we are his children. He sent us here to learn and grow. If we sit on our duffs and wait for him to save us until it is "everlastingly too late", it will be a source of great anguish for us and for him.

tatabug said...

NM,

Let me see if I can interpret something you said.

""Well done! It has never been about you or your works! It's always been about God! Woohoo!"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me this sounds like, "Well done! It has never been about you or your sin (works), in that you have broken the commandments (works)! That doesn't matter. We don't care if you sin (works). What's important is that you believe in God (faith)!"

So then what's the big deal with telling us to keep the commandments? Is that just fluff? To that I say, "If keeping the commandments is so unnecessary, then don't tell me things like:

Matt. 5:19, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

John 14:15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

John 14:21, "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

Romans 2:5-13, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish wihtout law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judges by the law; (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the the doers of the law shall be justified.

Here I was all this time, taking these scriptures at face value, that it was necessary to keep the commandments, and now I am to believe that they are meaningless?

Could it also mean that it wasn't about Adam and Eve's transgression (works)?

We can't repent (works)? You mean, we can't say, "Father forgive me. I have sinned. I am so sorry and I want to do better and follow thee." Is that meanigless? I know that we don't earn salvation, but aren't we commnanded to repent, and then go and sin no more (John 8:11)?

NM said...

Jeff,

Once again, this is an excellent post! =)

Tatabug,

BTW, I really appreciated the response you gave to me on Jeff's previous post (Adam and the Fall: God's Plan Thwarted?). I need, as you did, mull over your response!

First, I need to say that you have misunderstood what I said when you rephrased my comment =) God does not take our sin lightly. And sin should NEVER be conflated with human works. The two are categorically different. When I say works - I mean, 'human effort'. Notice that I also pointed to Luke 15? The themes covered in Luke 15 are not 'sin' and 'repentance'. Rather, it is 'human effort' and 'repentance'. Again, I must re-iterate I DID NOT SAY that sin means work. It was a wrong assumption of what I said on your part =)

So, on with the show?

All the quotes you gave to me ARE EXCELLENT! I love all of them! =D

And I guess the trick is for us to put such words penned by the different gospel-writers and also by Paul etc. into their proper context.

So, for this: I'll point you to just one verse in Romans 9. Do you remember the gist of this chapter? Paul asks some unusual questions about God's Sovereignty. He asks the unthinkable! Has God pre-ordained that for His chosen to see His glory and mercy, He also chose others for His wrath?! Not my words - they are Paul's =)

Furthermore, Paul (after declaring some AMAZING things in the previous chapter) become INCREDIBLY DISTRAUGHT. Why? Because his own (his fellow Jewish brothers and sisters) JUST DIDN'T GET IT. His fellow Jews just didn't see the point of Jesus! And to make matters worse, THE GENTILES WERE! Craziness!

So, on with the show:

Pop your head down starting in verse 30&31. And Paul asks, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by FAITH; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law."

First of all, when did Israel first receive The Law? Through Moses, right? And what did the Israelites say when they received The Law? They effectively said, Yes God, we'll do this!" Notice that the motivation in their hearts was that they really thought they could achieve it! Not only that, but they thought they could achieve it THROUGH THEIR OWN STRENGTH...

How do I know this? Look at verse 32...

What does Paul continue to say? "Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone"

EUREKA!

The Israelites then and the Jewish nation in Paul's life-time thought they could achieve the law BY WORKS! And look at what Paul contrasts WORKS with....FAITH!

What the Israelites should have said when The Law was given to Moses was, "God! We can't do this! You demand perfection! We CANNOT DO IT! We need you to do it, so we submit; we need You to do it for us...."

God's Law wasn't solely made for man (as if it were to be WORKED FOR)...but The Law was put firstly to declare HIS PERFECTION and that the standards He requires for anybody to be worthy in His sight is PERFECTION. Secondly, because He demands PERFECTION, we CANNOT ACHIEVE PERFECTION...instead - we look to somebody else who has...

The Law is there to be kept; yes, I agree. But in our keeping of them - we need to know that we CANNOT KEEP THEM - as hard as we might try. Therefore, instead of beating ourselves up over it, we look up and to Him who is the author, perfecter, and sustainer of our faith =) This Divine Law can only be kept AND FULFILLED by Divinity. =) I'll upload another sermon on my make-shift blog entitled, 'God Did Not Spare His Own Son'. Listen to it and tell me what you think?

Mormanity said...

Confused: And sin should NEVER be conflated with human works. The two are categorically different. When I say works - I mean, 'human effort'.

Don't sins of commission require human effort? Good grief, look at the lengths some people go to in order to pursue a few moments of immorality. Talk about massive and foolish human effort. And then what about sins of omission? Aren't these about NOT putting forth effort where it is required, like failure to worship God, failure to help the sick and the needy, etc.?

Sin is all about human works and effort - either for the wrong objectives or failing to do works for the right objectives. Either way, we offend God. Repentance must involve turning away from sin, which means that we turn toward good works. Human effort is required. If not, why would there be so many repetitive warnings telling us to avoid sin and urging us to do good and keep the commandments? In my opinion, human effort is most certainly involved.

Mormanity said...

Naturally, our mortal efforts fall short and would be in vain, were it not for the reconciliation, redemption, and justification that is made available through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. But just as sin is the result of misguided human effort or failure to put forth effort, so also does repentance involve human effort as we strive to obey God and replace disobedience with obedience, knowing that it is only through relying on the merits of Christ that we can be saved, as the Book of Mormon so clearly teaches.

Regarding the link between repentance and human effort, consider these works of Paul from 2 Corinthians 7:

8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.


When they sorrowed for their sins and began to repent, what desire they showed, what zeal, what -- shall we say? -- effort.

NM said...

Jeff,

You have said things that are way too complicated for me to understand. It'll take me a few days to comprehend what you've written...

Tatabug,

I've just re-read the verses from Matthew and John (not Romans 2) which you gave to me =)

The one in Matthew 5:19 should be read in the context of verse 20 =) Don't just stop at 19. In fact, read the whole chapter =)

Matthew 5 (for me) is when Jesus clarifies The Law and reminds the disciples around Him the importance of keeping them! Not only does He remind them of The Law's importance, but Jesus also adds a different dimension to it. Notice in verse 21&22 and 27&28? Not only is Jesus reminding His disciples should be kept outwardly, but also (and ALL THE MORE DIFFICULT) inwardly! How often do we (certainly as men do) look at a woman, without thinking lustful thoughts? Be honest =) If in our honesty, we say, "Probably quite a few times" then we admit that we have broken The Law =) Jesus then gives some very harsh alternatives to prevent us from sinning. What does He say? If your arm makes you to stumble - cut it off! If your eye also makes you to stumble - cut that off aswell! Jesus makes it plainly clear how not to make light of 'sin'. =)

Notice how chapter 5 starts. It starts with the beattitudes! And as you read them, you almost get the sense that Jesus is talking to the 'sinners' - the ones who are making a geniune effort to love God, yet in their geniunness, fail. And what's worse is that people around them also know that they fail =/

So, on to verse 19&20: "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. "


The start of verse 19 actually serves as a warning to hypocrites! The latter half of verse 19, is a stepping stone to verse 20! So in 19b, the road to attaining perfection is set (and bear in mind that Jesus in this chapter makes it ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to keep The Law) - Jesus is simply saying, "Walk the talk"; what you say, you must also do.

So, when you get to verse 20, Jesus, on the outset seems to be commending the Scribes and the Pharisees! But know that Jesus IS NOT commending them AT ALL! =) You'll find as you read the gospels is that Jesus is always opposed to the religiousness of the Pharisees and the so-called teachers of The Law! It was clear to see (from Jesus' perspective) that they are hypocrites! They say one thing and do the other. And when such Pharisees did something good, i.e. GOOD WORKS, it was always to look for the praise of man! =)

Read the whole chapter Tatabug. You'll find that Jesus isn't actually saying anything about keeping the commandments as a way for salvation (through works). Jesus says a lot of things in Matthew 5, but in relation to The Law, He makes it quite clear that NO-ONE CAN ACHIEVE IT =)

As for John 14. Again, read the whole chapter. John 14 is one of the most PROFOUND chapters in the Bible...but that'll probably be for another day =)

tatabug said...

NM,

I certainly and wholeheartedly agree that we cannot attain to perfection--at least not in this life.

But for us to say that we can't and then not even try is to ignore the admonition by Jesus Christ to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). He didn't say it just to hear himself say it, or to give us the impression that we can't do it, so don't even try. He knows we can't obtain it. But He asks us to be perfect, because that should be our goal. However, when we've done all we can do to get there, and it isn't enough (because there is no doubt it won't be), Christ is there to make up the difference. He will make us perfect.

Christ doesn't want us to feel defeated, to say "we CANNOT KEEP THEM." That attitude is negative and self-defeating. The correct attitude should be, "Lord, you've asked me to keep these commandments, and I will put forth every effort to do as you've asked me, but please know that I am weak and that I will mess up from time to time, and I only ask that you will forgive me, and give me strength to go on in doing thy will."

God does not give us commandments that we can't keep, or that He doesn't provide a way for us to accomplish them. We may have a harder time with some than with others, so we will fail, but we should patiently get back up, dust ourselves off, and keep trying until we've overcome our weakness, and not say, "I just can't do it. Please do it for me."

Sometimes, there will be trials and obstacles in our lives which we cannot overcome, and we can receive strength from the Lord, but it is still our responsibility to work it out until we've done all we can do. When we stand to be judged, the Lord will know whether we've done all we could, and it is then that His grace will take over and make up for our failings. I think we will be very suprised at how merciful God will be with us, as He takes into account our understanding, our intent, and our efforts, but obedience isn't a suggestion.

Also, I'm not sure if you were talking to me specifically, but I'm not a man, just so you know. But I suppose that even a woman isn't excluded from that possibility.

And yes, in Matt. 5, Jesus is talking to the 'sinners.' That would be everyone. I can't disagree with most of your interpretation here, except to say that I don't think it seems like He is in any way commending the scribes and pharisees. What seems apparent to me is that He is saying that you are going to have to do better than the scribes and pharisees if you want to get to heaven, because they aren't going to make it.

You said,

"You'll find that Jesus isn't actually saying anything about keeping the commandments as a way for salvation (through works). Jesus says a lot of things in Matthew 5, but in relation to The Law, He makes it quite clear that NO-ONE CAN ACHIEVE IT =)"

I just have to completely disagree with that statement. Why else does He say "enter into the kingdom of heaven" or "shall be in danger of the judgement" or "cast into hell." These phrases seem to very much indicate that salvation is at stake. No where do I find any implication that no one can achieve it. Once again, I know that we don't 'earn' salvation, but this chapter doesn't say anywhere that these requirements can't be met, at least not in my humble opinion.

NM said...

Tatabug,

Gah! There I go again, making WRONG assumptions about people! I put my foot in the most awkward places sometimes. My apologies: I automatically thought you were of the male species. =) In that case, what am I doing bearing my soul to the enemy?! That's another one who has gained inside information about how male-people think!

So anyway, I think I've chewed upon what you have said. And for the most part, I agree with you =) God does enable us, of course, to achieve the unachievable. He does give us the strength to do what we can =)

What you may need to realise (and I'd say most of the 'evangelical' umbrella' is opposed this - I'd probably say that T4x4 and Kathleen might also be opposed) is that I align myself with the doctrine of man's Total Depravity. Just type TULIP and Calvin into wikipedia and you should arrive at a page which describes the acronym. The reason why I take such an extreme view in saying (and the use of CAPITAL LETTERS - for added effect) is it seems we are completely and utterly DEAD to our sin. And another thing you might want to know of is something called 'monergism'...(it's all getting a little complicated)...but this is to do with the notion that God alone is involved in EVERY STEP of our salvation. It is to do with:
1) God who chooses us from before the foundation of the world;
2) It is God who quickens us for salvation (and before this, we are dead in our sin)
3) It is God through His Son who absorbed His own wrath so that we might stand in His presence - NOT GUILTY.
4) It is God who continues to give us strength to persevere with the path to follow Him.

Simply put: It is God, God, God. God all the way. And all that man can do is receive, receive, receive...

Sounds crazy, doesn't it? But that's what is so ABSURD and AMAZING about the gospel! =D

So, yes, we do work to keep the commandments, we do strive to do GOOD WORKS...but paradoxically it is and has always been God working in us and through us =)

It's not that mind-bending; but to appropriate it in the way that we live our day-to-day is something else =) But I have to say, it's the most LIBERATING NEWS I've ever heard. I never, EVER have to depend on my own strength any longer (this kind of news should make us breath a sigh of relief more than anything); too many times I have failed keeping this, that n' the other up.

Just let go and let God =) Please know that 'letting go' is (paradoxically) THE HARDEST WORK - because to 'let go' is to give up our pride, it is to give up the idea that we can do it. The sooner we can let God, the more RADICAL our christian lives can be, right? To know that God IS FOR ME and NOT AGAINST ME?! To know that this OMNIPOTENT God gives me strength?! And that He has my life in His hands EVEN in suffering?! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?! =D

NM said...

Tatabug,

Also, I think this all ties in with Jeff's post on 'repentance'.

Repentance simply means a-turning-away-from and to go the opposite way. And ultimately, 'sin' is encapsulated in this statement, "God? Thanks, but no thanks; I'd rather go my own way".

None of us truly love God and want Him to have reign in our lives; if we do, we err on using Him on our terms and when it's appropriate for us. We put 'ME' where God should be. Effectively, this is the ultimate expression of sin - in the way that we have broken the highest commandment: that we should love God with all our hearts, mind and strength.

So, to repent of our sin, simply means to turn away from 'ME'! And turn to Him! As soon as this happens, Jesus describes in Luke 15 that there is CELEBRATION in heaven!

Repentance IS the hardest WORK - because SELF is too precious to let go.

tatabug said...

NM,

Just let go and let God =) Please know that 'letting go' is (paradoxically) THE HARDEST WORK - because to 'let go' is to give up our pride, it is to give up the idea that we can do it. The sooner we can let God, the more RADICAL our christian lives can be, right? To know that God IS FOR ME and NOT AGAINST ME?! To know that this OMNIPOTENT God gives me strength?! And that He has my life in His hands EVEN in suffering?! HOW CRAZY IS THAT?! =D

I wholeheartedly agree with, I think, everything you've said...except for one part, and maybe this is just semantics, but where you say "it is to give up the idea that we can do it." I don't belive God is doing the work for us. He helps us do it, and we need His help, but we go through agony in trying to overcome our weaknesses. If we weren't doing anything, we wouldn't be suffering.

I just knew we had more beliefs in common than we realized. We LDS just like to emphasize, even though we know that grace key, that works are essential. Too many protestants think that grace is ALL you need. My grandmother, for instance, is a Baptist. She believes that once a person is "saved," they are always saved, and NOTHING they can do after that will result in them going to "hell." But she will then say that a person who is truly saved won't do anything that would be egregious.

Much as Paul put a lot of emphasis on grace and faith, since his audience consisted largely of those who grew up under Mosaic Law and didn't understand the role of the Savior in their salvation, so do we, who live in an environment of protestants who believe that grace is all one needs for salvation, try to emphasize the need for works. There is a delicate balance there, which we acknowledge, but that many take to extremes. Perhaps a lot of it comes down to a lack of understanding. Sometimes, it seems we speak two different languages, but in reality, our beliefs are very similar.

NM said...

Tatabug,

You really made me giggle when you said, "Much as Paul put a lot of emphasis on grace and faith, since his audience consisted largely of those who grew up under Mosaic Law and didn't understand the role of the Savior in their salvation, so do we, who live in an environment of protestants who believe that grace is all one needs for salvation, try to emphasize the need for works."

=D

I guess this is the whole point of the book of James =D James talked SO MUCH about WORKS! In fact, anyone who doesn't know about Christianity who might first read James, might be mistaken that Christianity is just like the rest of the world...that to succeed, we need to put effort into ourselves.

I know this doesn't really make much sense, but if we were to run along the same logic as you proposed above, do you think that if the Pharisees did the opposite and not concentrated so much on doing their self-glorifying works and were more than ready to accept Jesus as their Messiah, that Jesus might then have told them to concentrate on works?!!? And to quit putting so much emphasis on Himself as their Redeemer?!? Hahahaha!! It doesn't really make that much sense I know, but please humour me with this one =)

Seriously though, it wasn't just Paul who wrote about grace and faith. Jesus, by His example (certainly what we can see from the gospel writers), rebuked the Pharisees for all their pomp and religiousness. Instead, Jesus had the audacity to say, "Look to me! I'm am the way to the Father, I am the truth, I am the life!"...

You have a wise grandma =) You know what? This concept of 'grace' is difficult even within evangelicalism; I still do believe that there are many who profess to be Christians, but still they rely upon themselves. And whenever hardships come about, they crumble - they shake their fists at God; or they turn to the mental-health professional who can give them a few anti-depressants to ride out the storm, or whatever instead of simply resting on His mighty, sovereign and infinitely powerful hand. =(

(BookSlinger, this might be of interest to you) Tatabug (and with Jeff's permission) this is my church: it is called Woodlands Evangelical Church. We recently planted another church on the other side of town, which it seems by God's grace is doing well - a few teething problems, but hey-ho =)

Anyway, again if it's ok with Jeff, can I point to a talk given by a lovely Irish lady on the subject of 'grace'? The series is called, 'Glimpses of Grace' and I want to link to the third (session 3) of her talks...she was lovely, about 5 feet tall, brown curly hair and had a serious evangeli-grin. Oh I know, instead I'll provide a link from my make-shift blog.

tatabug said...

NM,

Sigh...And we were making such good progress.

Peter said...

I'm in shock! Tatabug is female?!? I didn't even think about it. I guess that's due to the anonymity of the internet.

Mormanity said...

What, you think I'll allow links to an off-topic non-LDS talk just because the author is a lovely Irish lady with curly hair? I may be male, but I'm not that superficial. But the part about the evangelical grin is hard to resist. Go ahead, NM.

NM said...

Tatabug,

What?! What was the sigh for? Have we taken two steps back?

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Jeff,

Cracking post - this is exactly how the 'true repentance' process should be approached by both existing Christians in need and any newcomers to Christianity!

Dear Tatabug and NM,

You are not very far away in your comments to each other.

From what I have read into, the keywords that Jeff has described but not mentioned are SANCTIFICATION through the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. This is the part where we fully submit our ALL / 100% (NM pointed this out - thanks) to Jesus and where we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us. Human effort is involved but our focus is on Jesus and we are lead (by choice!) in the Spirit. No force is involved on the Spirit's part - all that He asks is for us to consider His question - which way do we prefer....?

Guess what Tatabug - I am sorry but on this next part, I must disagree with you : you said "Christ doesn't want us to feel defeated, to say "we CANNOT KEEP THEM." That attitude is negative and self-defeating. The correct attitude should be, "Lord, you've asked me to keep these commandments, and I will put forth every effort to do as you've asked me, but please know that I am weak and that I will mess up from time to time, and I only ask that you will forgive me, and give me strength to go on in doing thy will."

God does not give us commandments that we can't keep, or that He doesn't provide a way for us to accomplish them. We may have a harder time with some than with others, so we will fail, but we should patiently get back up, dust ourselves off, and keep trying until we've overcome our weakness, and not say, 'I just can't do it. Please do it for me.' "

If one has given 100% to Jesus and accepted the Holy Spirit, is failure an option ? At this point sin can be overcome (Jude 24,25, 2Peter2:9 & Rom6:14) not by our efforts or actions, but by the Spirit leading us. The promise that is also in Philippians 2:5 can also apply - If one has the mind of Jesus, just think exactly what can be achieved!

Please also read Romans 8:1&2 . What does this mean ? What is the law of the Spirit?

The 10 commandments have been hinted at but not really discussed. This next question is again to all - How many of the commenters have in the last month : committed adultery, stolen something, coveted the neighbours wife or car or worshipped idols? No - why not ? Could it be that this is an abomination to your own Christian psyche? Isn't it that adopting the mind of Jesus, finds no delight in those matters that would abhor God ? Then ask yourself the same questions that NM asked : how many have looked longingly at the opposite sex in a lustful manner (the media and hollywood heighten these senses exposing images all around us), how many have looked for loopholes in a tax return or purchased something that was definitely and mistakenly underpriced ? These are the more sinister temptations that Jesus is referring to - those of the heart that can not always be seen or judged by man.

Unfortunately, the Sabbath commandment is the most deceptively contrived and ignored commandment in modern times - but that's a whole different topic.

Still - great post and I look forward to some 'interesting' replies.

Teranno4x4

NM said...

Jeff,
Thank you for the permission thing =) My plan worked: you do know that the evangeli-grin was a hook right? =)

T4x4,

Thank you for your observations. Yes, sancitification is something else that might be worth discussing...

I get very excited about justification, but I don't FULLY know the work of the Holy Spirit in terms of sanctification...

Evanglicals often get critized (normally by the Charismatics)about the work of the Trinity in our lives, that is: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Bible... =)

*that was a joke by the way*

teranno4x4 said...

Dear NM,

You wrote some excellent observations yourself, as did Tatabug (she has my comment where I disagreed when she stated 'that we can not overcome' - we can through the Spirit). Apart from that her comments were well thought too.

Jeff well discussed and described sorrow in sin, the need for repentance, repentance, justification, obedience / commandment keeping and then goes on to describe human works. I see the same, but I also see a greater power at work leading, that Jeff also describes in places and this part is the key. This is the sanctification process through the power of the Holy Spirit that delivers the 'FRUITS'.

Man can be sinless (not perfect [yet]) - we still have the history of our sin that will be blotted out with the blood of Jesus. We can follow in Jesus' footsteps as our time carries on. This daily walk is sanctification and it will only end with our translation at the second coming of Jesus.

I've not really fully understood the differences between the 'evangelicals and charismatics', so please forgive my ignorance in this respect. Be careful, some may take your joke literally.

I look to the Bible as my guide to Jesus, and together with the Spirit - I believe in the promise that I too, can overcome sin.

Teranno4x4

tatabug said...

NM,

The sigh was a sad sort of sigh. It seemed as though we were finding common ground, but then your comment just before my sigh comment seemed to suggest differently. But perhaps I didn't read closely enough. It is kind of hard to understand the point you were trying to make.

Teranno4x4,

I can't really disagree with anything you've said. I would like to point out, however, in regards to your disagreement with me, that I don't disagree with you. Perhaps you've misunderstood what I meant. By your own comment, you basically said that when we give 100%, the Lord can make up the rest for us. That is basically what I was saying. The part about "I just can't do it. Please do it for me," may be the source of the confusion. That was only meant to apply to one who, at the outset, has decided that something is too hard for them, and so they aren't even going to try, but are going to rely on the Lord to do it for them. I was only trying to demonstrate the point that we must always put forth our best efforts in order to access grace.

The Lord is there to give us strength to overcome that which we through our own ability and effort cannot do. We do all we can and the Lord makes up the difference. Does that sound better?

dave d said...

In Matthew 5:48, as tatabug pointed out, Jesus tells us to be perfect. Quite a hefty requirement when taken at face value in the English language. The greek work, telios, that is translated as “perfect”, could be better translated as “complete” or “finished” or “fully developed”. So, instead we would read “Be ye therefore complete” or “Be ye therefore fully developed”.

How are we “complete”? We become complete as we come to Christ and give Him all that we have and His grace and perfection makes up for all our shortcomings. We give him our meager offerings (a few talents) and He adds His infinity to it and we are completed – or perfected if you prefer. It seems like, from the comments given here, that we are all in agreement on this point – that after all we can do, it is still not sufficient and Christ’s grace is what bridges the unbridgeable gap.

I love how this is supported so well by that very unbiblical author, Moroni, in the last comment of the Book of Mormon when he asks us to come to Christ and be perfected in Christ – not “in ourselves” but “in him”.

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.” (Moroni 10:32-33)

tatabug said...

dave d,

Great comment and thanks for reminding me of that scripture in Moroni. NM might even like that one.

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Tatabug,

Discussing sanctification .....

I think that you are placing my comments into your own understanding and finding that they are in agreement.

I think that I understood you correctly - I apologise if not in advance. I will try to explain what I am meaning again.

You seemed to suggest that God doesn't want us to fail. I agree with this (we have been sent the Holy Spirit as 'the Comforter').
Then you go on to say : "I am weak and that I will mess up from time to time, and I only ask that you will forgive me...."

My point was that if we empty ourselves of 'self' 100%, lay ourselves in God's hands and say "I am 100% yours dear Lord", once the Holy Spirit answers us and leads us - can we fail ? It is through a result of 100% presence of the power of the Holy Spirit - no effort from self otherwise we would not overcome! And we would continue to fall, and to fall, and to fall ..... If we know this concept as I describe above, how many times should we be forgiven ? When does our request for forgiveness become a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit after when we have wilfully gone astray?

I am sorry Tatabug not making myself clearer before. Can you see the subtle differences now from what I wrote above ?

I agree with Dave D that Jesus DOES bridge the gap for our failing, but this is in the repentance stage still under justification. Once we are justified, cleansed from sin and forgiven, that is when the sanctification process starts. Here there is no room for repeating sin if one is 100% under the influence of the power of the Holy Spirit. Some people do not take kindly to a 'perfectionist' ideal. I do not believe in perfectionism until after the second coming, so that is why I preferred the word 'sinless'.

If you re-read the Bible texts that I offered in light of this, then your understanding of my meaning should change.

Sorry for the initial confusion,

Teranno4x4

tatabug said...

T4x4,

Please forgive my misunderstanding. I see now where we may differ. It is our belief that to obtain and maintain the power of the Holy Ghost in our lives that it takes constant vigilance and attention to keep ourselves worthy of his power in our lives.

Helaman 4:24 says, And they saw that they had become weak, like unto their brethren, the Lamanites, and that the Spirit of the Lord did no more preserve them; yea, it had withdrawn from them because the Spirit doth not dwell in unholy temples--

NM said...

Tatabug,

I am sorry that I gave you the wrong impression. I do agree with you that there are some very obvious similarities with our two beliefs =) Please don't sigh, and please don't give up on me. This forum is a good way for us to learn from each other; in fact, I think I have learned more about the LDS faith here than any other site. Such are the wonders of freedom of speech...

I think also, the reason why I probably didn't want to show the obvious similarities is because I really don't want to show that it has ANYTHING to do with us at all =) I know it sounds pedantic on my part but hopefully I can show you a good argument for why this is so?

The doctrine of sovereign grace really comes into its own (it comes ALIVE), during times of personal disaster.

Do you remember what I said about certain so-called Christians within evangelicalism who profess this 'grace alone, faith alone' in their lives? But when faced with some sort of tragedy, be it a job loss, a bereavement, a relationship breakdown, severe depression, anxiety etc. such doctrines are thrown out the window?

What we sing about God being our rock and foundation and when we sing about His majesty, His wonder etc. on a sunday morning is immediately forgotten when the rubber hits the road! I ask myself, "Why?" Why is it that we are more than happy to sing His praises when life is going well? But when disaster strikes, we might not necessarily hold our fists up at God, but what we do though is LOOK TO OURSELVES for help. What has happened to the songs we sing on a Sunday morning?!

I think the life of Job is an important lesson for us all =)

The doctrine of Sovereign Grace really comes into its own during those times when we think God has left us to suffer...

It is during these times of hardship that WE REALLY CANNOT DO ANYTHING. I think I've mentioned this before: we are faced with two possible choices.

1) Look to ourselves for help.
2) Eat our pride, know that we can't dig ourselves out of the rut that we have found ourselves in and look to God for help.

It's VERY easy for us to discuss LDS doctrine vs. Evangelical doctrine or whatever, and easy for us to sing His praises when times are good. But when trouble comes, I wonder how many of us look into ourselves for help?

I guess this is where Satan comes in, right? Satan actually plays fair. Satan [rightly] accuses for the fact that we are worthless; that we are sinful; that we are failures...

But it seems (and the absurdity of the message of the Bible) is that it is by faith that Jesus has already done the work that we are no longer guilty! Do you see just how amazingly absurd sovereign grace is? Please say YES!

This is why Jesus had so much compassion for 'sinners' (those who according to society's eyes were OBVIOUS REJECTS). Remember, Jesus did not come into the world to save the righteous (those who think they can do it), but He came to save SINNERS (those who know that they are good for nothing). =) These 'sinners' that Jesus spent so much time with, were those who KNEW that there was nothing else they could depend on, except for Jesus =) All they had was a man who claimed to be the Messiah! What faith! But then again, there was nothing else that they could really depend upon...

It is the same with us who live in 21st Century western society today. It is very hard for us to understand hardships because we all live in a relatively well-off society =) It's only when things like job-loss or bereavement or relationship breakdown occur, that we get a taste of the REALITY OF THIS WORLD. =)

Here's the crunch for us who seek to follow Him (I think we could all say this, whether we be Evangelical Christians or LDS or whatever): when life hits disaster, who do we immediately depend upon?

Tatabug, I hope you can understand why I say that we just cannot do it. Our true colours show only when we are at our utmost desperation. We are at our utmost desperation because we cannot depend upon anyone - not even our spouses, our children, our wider families, our friends nor ourselves...but BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH (because this is all that we have), we have life in Jesus =)

NM said...

And I guess (this is a bit of a personal confession) this is what makes me struggle so much at work. Everyday, I meet kids who are so desperate for help, so much so, that they and their parents will look to anything for help =(

So, whilst it may seem laudable to be in a job which aims to give support, what good am I actually doing when the kind of support that I give has NOTHING at all to do with Jesus? Do you see the dilemma? When all I want to say to all of them is, "Please, repent". That is, "Please, don't look to yourselves for help, turn and head toward a new direction...look to Jesus because no-one including yourself can help you."

Write off the doctrine of 'Man's Total Depravity'? Makes us think twice doesn't it?

tatabug said...

NM,

The Lord does not view us as worthless or as failures. We are of great worth to Him which is why He gave His life for ours. He sees within us the potential to do great things.

Even the righteous sin. No one (save Jesus) is without sin, so He came for all of us, even the righteous. Even the righteous are smart enough to know that they are sinners. If they don't, then they probably aren't very righteous.

For us, the issue is not to emphasize grace or works above another, but to show that the two are interconnected. Both are ineffectual on their own. As C.S. Lewis put it, "Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary."

There is nothing wrong with taking responsibility for our actions. There is also nothing wrong with admitting that we've done all we can do, and that we need help to finish the job.

You keep throwing around the term sovereign grace, but I have to admit that I really don't understand what you mean by this. Nor do I understand why anything that is supposedly good could be considered absurd. Wouldn't that imply that it is unreasonable. So I guess until I understand better what you mean, I really can't say "YES."

And I totally disagree that we are powerless to help ourselves. No, we cannot save ourselves, but we can much to overcome temptation and weaknesses. That isn't to say that we can do it all without drawing upon the powers of heaven to help us, but we aren't powerless to take control of our lives and bring to pass much righteousness.

Anonymous said...

Dear Tatabug,

This is the whole point that I was making to you.

Your last paragraph to NM describes the processes of repentance and justification. These are our acts / responses that are necessary.

Then comes sanctification that is a whole NEW experience. It is walking forward towards heaven being led 100% by the power of the Holy Spirit (our choice again). Should we 'consciously' choose to backslide or turn in the opposite direction whilst under this Divine power (eg. fornicate, steal, lie etc...) as temptations from the devil are hurled at us, how can the Holy Spirit remain in us. There is much truth in your own doctrinal quote from Helaman (whatever else I may think the history of the situation).

Unconsciously, we should continue walking in the Spirit as one that is saved, leaping over the sinful hurdles - but still the choice is ours....

BTW NM, I agree with most of your comments to Tatabug, except when you say that the devil plays fair. he is the instigator of the marital breakdowns (lustful affairs etc), the drunken beatings, the loss of careers, the stresses that we face daily. he plays unfair in how he manipulates all situations on earth to his own advantage in wanting to blame, accuse and attack God on our behalf, because we are the stupid fools that suffer him willingly. satan has never played fair.


Teranno4x4

tatabug said...

T4x4,

I agree with you about justification and sanctification up to the part where you say "It is through a result of 100% presence of the power of the Holy Spirit - no effort from self otherwise we would not overcome!" Like I said, it takes constant effort and attention to our thoughts and actions in order to maintain the presence of the Holy Spirit. That's where our effort comes in. You said, "Should we 'consciously' choose to backslide or turn in the opposite direction whilst under this Divine power (eg. fornicate, steal, lie etc...) as temptations from the devil are hurled at us, how can the Holy Spirit remain in us." I agree.

You also said, "My point was that if we empty ourselves of 'self' 100%, lay ourselves in God's hands and say 'I am 100% yours dear Lord', once the Holy Spirit answers us and leads us - can we fail ?" I think that is a very simplistic way of looking at it. We may have all the faith in the world, and yet still it is up to us to "work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). We may have the Spirit with us, but that doesn't always guarantee success. There are too many variables involved, and to put God in the position of solving all our problems if we only have enough faith, is a potential faith destroyer in itself. In all things we must have the attitude of "remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done" (Luke 22:42).

(I have a feeling I'm really in for it now.)

Anonymous said...

Dear Tatabug,

You are not in for anything negative - I am glad that we can discuss the finer points - this is how we can learn from each other. I am enjoying your comments and you have already offered much thoughtful input to make me think carefully about what DO I consider important enough to believe in....

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
** No sin committed if one follows the path that God has made for us to recognise - how ? Through following the guidance of the Holy Spirit!**

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
** Keywords - able to keep you from falling. Keep ourselves from falling ? No - 'Unto Him' does this **

2Peter2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
**who does the action here - The Lord!**

Romans 6 (beautiful chapter!)
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God **JUSTIFICATION**, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. **SANCTIFICATION**
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
**Who forbids?**

Thanks for the correnspondence in the correct Spirit.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

To doubt these promises (revealed through different authors) is to doubt the power of the Godhead combined to secure our eternal safe-keeping. That questions our faith - not a potential point of failure.

Have you trusted or had faith to THAT extent yet ? Scary question - isn't it ?

tatabug said...

T4x4,

Just needing to clarify to understand whether or not we are in agreement.

Some of the scriptures you suggest seem to deal with our day to day struggles in dealing with temptation. Others seem to deal with our eternal salvation. I'm not sure how you are applying these scriptures, so I am hesitant to comment directly on them.

Justified and sanctified persons can fall from grace, which is why we must always be watchful and prayerful and frequently renewing our covenants with God. It is only through God that we can be justified and sanctified, but we must get to a point where we are worthy to be justified and sanctified and we must continue on that path, lest we fall.

NM said...

Tatabug,

WHAT?! Did you say we can fall from grace? Is this something that is commonly taught in LDS doctrine Jeff?

This is all getting very, VERY interesting. By the way, I'm really enjoying the conversation between you and T4x4 =)

tatabug said...

NM,

Yes, that's what I said. Got a problem with it?

Doctrine and Covenants 20:30-33:

30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true;
31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength.
32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;
33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation;

NM said...

Errm, no I don't think I have a problem with you believing it Tatabug. It is, after all, a central tenet to LDS theology as you have kindly shown =)

tatabug said...

NM,

Don't worry, I'm just playing with you. But I assume that you have a different opinion on the issue.

NM said...

I totally CAVED IN! I really thought I'd pressed another button there!

Anonymous said...

Tatabug quoted :
"32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;
33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation;"

There is always a possibility : this is our choice. Once sanctified, we do not become robots, we still need to listen to and heed the calling / leading of the Holy Spirit. This is our freedom from sin calling. What can be more important in our lives.... ?

What can the church do ? If a member chooses to say an unkind word or do an unkind act, is a praying church going to prevent it? Is satan going to be at work more in the ghettos where sin is rife and his tools are many, or in the church where all seemingly is pristine and well presented and his tools are very few. Here lies the deceptiveness of the whole issue and why the NEED for santification in everyone's Christian walk is ABSOLUTELY necessary. Spiritual discernment is the key to overcoming so that we do not fall.

NM said...

The notion that one can lose his or her salvation is something that leaves me bewildered and confused. =/

Reformed doctrine obviously states that those whom God has called - He keeps, no matter what. And then there are those who are Armenians (usually Methodism) who are pro-man's will, and ultimately that man can lose their salvation.

On a practical level, I know a few of my close friends who seem to have fallen away =( It's interesting that the reason for their falling away were due to personal and unexpected disasters. I guess this is what I mean when I said that in such situations, we are faced with two options:

1) to rely upon our own strength;
2) to rely upon God for strength.

The first option is the one which we seem to naturally home in on. And if we happen to be successful with helping ourselves, then what use is God? It might then be that we start to doubt first of all, God's goodness to us. i.e. how can God love me when He let this happen to me? (Job is a good example of this - during his accusatory phase). We might then start to doubt His existence...

Spiritually speaking, it might be at this time when demons come to whisper in our ears, that to go our own way is much more practical, more beneficial etc...

Our second option is when we repent, when even in suffering, we search through prayer, fasting etc. for God's divine work. Remember Romans 8:28? That ALL THINGS work together for good to those who love God and are called according to HIS PURPOSE. The best example is again Job - after his accusatory phase when Job is HUMBLED as God declares His SOVEREIGNTY to him =) In Job's suffering, He ends up praising God.

Personally speaking (and please note that I can only go by my own experience with this one) is that once a person (in a state of utter desperation) calls out to God for salvation - he/she will never lose it. And instead - as with many that I know (in good times and bad), praise Him for all that He is worth =)

From my personal experience, I know I can't make it in this life without God. He saved me from a near-death experience. So, for me to experience anything else similar and knowing that God miraculously saved me, what can I do but rely on Him for the rest of my life?

=)

If God has chosen you from the before the foundation of the world, He will weave His will and His purpose into those He has called =) - no matter what it takes... He is, after all, sovereign.

Anonymous said...

NM, said:

Reformed doctrine obviously states that those whom God has called - He keeps, no matter what."

This is what the LDS church calls having your calling and election made sure and the standards are higher that what most christians believe. Just excepting Jesus Christ is the Son of God and asking for forgiveness for sins.

Anonymous said...

NM, said:

Reformed doctrine obviously states that those whom God has called - He keeps, no matter what."

This is what the LDS church calls having your calling and election made sure and the standards are higher that what most christians believe. Just excepting Jesus Christ is the Son of God and asking for forgiveness for sins.

Anonymous said...

NM,

Generally Mormons believe that man can live without God from the stand point they do nothing to follow Him or ask for His help, but salvation and resurrection free because Christs atonement and exaltation is earned by a combination of works and grace. If a person comes to a point where their calling and election is made sure then they would have to knowly turn around and fight aginst God. Like Satan and Judis.

NM said...

Anonymous,

Please, please, please listen to me. Salvation is not earned. We do not work for our salvation; we certainly do not mix the two (grace and works) either. Again, good works is always in response to receiving grace.

If you place an emphasis on 'earning', you put God as your debtor. God is no man's debtor. Please understand the weight of what I am trying to say...I urge you to reconsider your position; not because you are a LDS or anything. I would also say what I say to you to anyone who seeks to follow Jesus =)

Simply receive and believe in His name. Bear this in mind for when you are in your most desperate of situations; God will show His Sovereignty in your life when you approach Him in all humility =)

Anonymous said...

NM,

"Please, please, please listen to me. Salvation is not earned."

Please, please, please, listen to me closer I did not say that, it is a free gift.....! However, if I want it in the earned in my mind you can't over come my free agence and brain wash me different.

Anonymous said...

If you place an emphasis on 'earning', you put God as your debtor.


We are the debtor, however we will always disagree. Because I have known Christians that told me that we can be saved just by excepting Jesus Christ name then doing nothing else. I know this is a false doctrine, you must put forth some effort ( we, the Mormons call this works) baptism, attend church, pay tithing. These and many more are nessary not to earn but are nessary (works) ... by their fruits ye shall know them. If you produce nothing then and are luke warm then you will be spued out. You can do noting according to you believes but don't go agins the scriptures and ask me to reconsider what I know is true. Do be so nit pick about a word when most normal people know what works, earn, service, produce, all mean. Effort is required per. New Testiment teachings.

NM said...

So be it Anonymous =/

Anonymous said...

NM,

Don't lose any sleep - the 'anon' above has just declared to all that he is already brainwashed....

Mormanity said...

You know, I much prefer good arguments for things I don't believe than bad arguments for things I do.

Thanks for your patient discourse, NM!

Mormanity said...

But I'd also like to thank the non-anonymous LDS participants here for their generally excellent comments also!

Anonymous said...

"Don't lose any sleep - the 'anon' above has just declared to all that he is already brainwashed...."

All you good christians have been say this and a lot more evil things about me and my church, so I thought I would just direct it toward me. You good loving christians can't hurt me any more.

Any other evil things you would like to say about me and my church?

I sure love all you good christians out there.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I am not very good at this and don't always have a lot of time. I'll will try to do better.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon,

I was using your own words ("brain wash me different") - not mine. There was nothing personally abusive - it was intended jovially.

I love you (purely from a Christian perspective of course) as much as any other commenter who has contributed.

You're being a bit harsh on the 'general' Christian which I think is quite unfounded. We are not all 'anti LDS members' we just choose not to believe in Joseph Smith's effort...

NM said...

Jeff,

T4x4 brought up the interesting subject of sanctification. What are your thoughts?

Anonymous (6:55 AM, November 16, 2007),

Would you mind taking up a 'handle'; a screen name of some sort? I get so INCREDIBLY confused with the many anonym(i?)

tatabug said...

NM,

Here's what I think. I think that Paul has been completely misunderstood by many. Justification by faith alone is completely refuted by the words of Christ and the words of James, and even by the words of Paul himself.

If you take the words of Paul at face value that say "man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," then you have to ignore James when he says, "faith without works is dead," and you have to ignore Christ when He says, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments," or "Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal," or "he that endureth to the end shall be saved," or "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," not to even mention the Sermon on the Mount.

So what one is left with when considering such teachings in light of the apparently contradictory teachings by Paul of justification by faith alone, is to either ignore them, or try to reconcile them with what Paul teaches. But I think most of mainstream Christianity tries to ignore the teachings of James and the teachings of Christ which suggest that works are necessary, instead of reconciling these valid teachings with the idea that Paul was referring to the dead works of the law which were fulfilled through Christ's atonement.

And if you don't think that a person can fall from grace, then perhaps you need to carefully consider these scriptures: 1 Cor. 10:12, Hebrews 3:12-14, and Gal. 5:4.

NM said...

Tatabug,

I really appreciate your last comment; and to be honest with you, as I said in an earlier post: the notion that one can lose his salvation is something I find bewildering and confusing =/ Meaning, I don't really know where I stand with this issue =)

I don't think that people have misunderstood Paul at all with regard to 'faith alone, grace alone' =) This is worth a whole essay, so I'll just leave it at the point where I can only say that I disagree =)

The two of the three passages of scripture certainly uphold the notion that man CAN fall away =) (these were I Cor 10:12 & Hebrews 3:12-14)...unfortunately, I don't think the Galatians one did =) In fact, the whole book of Galatians' purpose is Paul's warning to the Galatian church is NOT TO ADOPT the old ways, that is - Paul urges them not to WORK in order to gain salvation =) In fact, Galatians 5:4 is a good summary of Paul's letter: "You who are trying to justify yourselves by the law - DON'T! You really have fallen from grace!" Do you see my point?

Can I just interject something at this point? I really appreciate our dialogue. I am learning a lot from you =)

But yes, ICor & Heb does point to what you said...I think. =)

tatabug said...

NM,

With regard to Galatians, you are correct in saying that Paul was trying to convince the Christians not to adopt the old ways of the Mosaic Law which were fulfilled upon Christ's atonement. But that applied specifically to the law of carnal commands and much of the ceremonial law. The laws of faith, repentance, baptism, and remission of sins, as well as the Ten Commandments, were not done away. Those things remained in effect, as they do today. That's why Jesus taught faith, repentance, baptism, and obedience to the commandments. So, in Galatians 5:4, he is saying that those who've been given the higher law, will fall if they choose to fall back into the keeping of the lesser law.

I think agreeing to disagree is a great way to end this conversation. However, I am still very curious to know how someone, such as yourself, reconciles the teachings of Jesus and James regarding obedience with the concept of justification by faith alone. It has always been a puzzle to me, and I hope you don't mind explaining that to me. I told you about my grandmother, and though we've talked a lot about this issue, she's never explained how she reconciles the issue. I'm not even sure that she can, which is troubling to me.

NM said...

Tatabug,

Again, thank you for your response.

Before I begin, did you get to listen to that talk? You know, the guest speaker that we had at my church? If you have not, then I'd really like to point you to her as she gives an excellent way of reconciling the 'law' and 'grace'.

Just so you know, I have not abandoned The Law at all. The law, given by God is there to remind me of His perfection =) And remember, Jesus said Himself that He did not come to abolish The Law, but to fulfill it =)

It is expedient for me to live BY the law; I haven't left it by the wayside. When Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments", it was a way of saying, if you love Jesus - appreciate that He is perfect! =D

Unfortunately, by trying to keep the law (and I think you and I will agree on this one) is that we will inevitably fail. Honestly speaking, I break at least 7 of the ten commandments each day; and as a guy, I probably break the law not to commit adultery at least every 7 seconds (as statisticians would have us to believe). So, where does that leave me?

The Irish-lady-speaker-person commented that we need to learn how to utilise both grace and law. She gave the picture of having both a fork and knife to eat a steak. Please understand: I have not abandoned the law at all =)

It's just that in my non-abandonment-of-the-law, I have come to an honest conclusion that I am a failure. God gave the law to Moses, not for it to be worked at, but to highlight just how sinful we are - that we are opposed to the fact that we want God to have rule over us.

Believe me Tatabug, I fail every-day; even in the knowledge that Jesus has already done it for me!?!?

And we know that the beauty of Jesus is that He came to fulfill the law?! I don't know how anyone can have the capacity to really understand this, unless the person is in a state of utter despair. And in his/her state of desperation cries, "God, please help me..."

So, to re-iterate: I have not abandoned the law. The law is there to remind me of my imperfection. But instead of reacting negatively toward the fact that I constantly FAIL, I now rejoice(!?!?!) Why in the world would somebody rejoice when they fail? Because in my failure, it reminds me of His perfection =D And all I can do is cling to Him!...then get on with worshiping and praising Him EVEN MORE! =D

I know you don't get it, but I'll say it again and again and again: grace is AMAZINGLY ABSURD!

tatabug said...

NM,

You're right, I don't get it.

You said, When Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments", it was a way of saying, if you love Jesus - appreciate that He is perfect! =D

To me, that interpretation just defies logic and reason, and I don't mean to insult.

It still doesn't make sense to me, but I appreciate your response, and though I haven't checked out the little Irish lady yet, I plan to.

NM said...

Great! =D

Anonymous said...

Grace divine is an indispensable gift from God for development, improvement, and character expansion. Without God's grace, there are certain limitations, weaknesses, flaws, impurities, and faults (i.e. carnality) humankind cannot overcome. Therefore, it is necessary to increase in God's grace for added perfection, completeness, and flawlessness.

Put another way, humankind is unable to evolve or be saved without God's grace; it is a prerequisite to salvation. Additionally, humans cannot exchange good deeds for it. It is a free gift from God. Thus, humankind is saved all by grace after all the works we can do for or development, improvement, and character expansion to become like our Savior. He provides the Godly boost if we will just act (work) in a partenership to become like Him.

Anonymous said...

nothing personally abusive

I was not talking about your non-abuse by the way many christians have treated our church.

Anonymous said...

NM, said:


"If God has chosen you from the before the foundation of the world," how can you lose your salvation.

For 100 pt.s Who was Judis?

NM said...

Exactly Anonymous! =D

....hmmm...who is Judis?

Anonymous said...

The name Judas comes from the Greek word Ioudas, which is simply the word employed for the Hebrew name Judah. We discover from Gen. 29:35 that it is derived from the verb meaning "to praise."
In the various listings of the Twelve within the New Covenant documents, the name of Judas always appears last. Additionally, there is added to his name some brief, but very negative, characterization: "...the one who betrayed Him" [Matt. 10:4], "...who also betrayed Him" [Mark 3:19], "...who became a traitor" [Luke 6:16]. The apostle John further portrays Judas Iscariot as "a devil" [John 6:70] and a "thief" [John 12:6], as one who was motivated and possessed by Satan [John 13:2, 27], and as "the son of perdition" [John 17:12]. One biblical scholar commented, "It is as though the evangelists could not paint this man black enough in retrospect." Dr. Herbert Lockyer writes, "There are 40 verses in the New Testament in which there is a reference to the betrayal of our Lord, and in each of them the dastardly sin of Judas is recorded" (All the Apostles of the Bible, p. 100).

Did he have his salvation then loose it?

NM said...

Anonymous,

Would you mind taking up a handle? Is that ok?

To answer your question, "Did he have salvation then lose it?"

I honestly cannot answer that. I just don't know =) What I mean is, I don't know who it is that God has called. Jesus did say though that we'll know who the called are by their fruits =)

Judas (as with anything that is recorded about Jesus' life and death) is unique. I'm sorry by the way - I just didn't think about JudAs - I actually thought there was a JudIs in the Bible(?!)

If you read the book of Zecharias, the betrayal of Jesus is prophecied =) I would invite you NOT TO think in a man-centered way. It's very, VERY easy to read the Bible that way. For example, read the book of Ruth. When you read it, one might be amazed at just how resourceful Ruth and Naomi were - from a human perspective...but this isn't the case at all. The protagonist IN EVERYTHING is always God. The Book of Acts is not so much about how the apostles moved to expand the church...it was about how the Holy Spirit moved THROUGH their lives to expand His church =) Do you see my point?

So, with Judas: if you read the book of Zecharias (which was written 400 years before Jesus was born), you might read of an account of the Jesus' last few hours when He was betrayed. The plan for Jesus' death has always been there from before the beginning of time.

Judas had nothing on Jesus; Judas was a lackey - a mere puppet! It was in the end (according to Paul's letter to Romans) that it was God who handed him over to Jesus' death! =)

Anonymous, I have on my make-shift blog posted a talk entitled, "God Did Not Spare His Own Son". Judas is mentioned. You might want to listen to it then tell me what you think? =)

NM said...

Anonymous,

I have posted (yet) another talk on my make-shift blog entitled, "Judas Iscariot, the Suicide of Satan, and the Salvation of the World"

As ever, click on my username. Listen to the talk and tell me what you think? =)

Anonymous said...

NM, why do you insist people listen to the talks you post but still have not taken up the invite to read the Book of Mormon? Or have you?

NM said...

Can I ask who is asking? Would you mind taking up a handle? =)

I've read Alma and I'm reading the rest of the way through now, but it's a little difficult especially when I hear that people keep making changes to it =P

*I jest*

Anonymous said...

NM,

Thanks for taking the time to read the Book of Morman. I have looked and most of the links that you have posted and find them interesting, but have about the same thinking that I got when I studied religion in college. For me the LDS Church is the restoration with new and fresh ideas and with answers to many of the hard questions that the rest of Christianty can not answer.

Hand el

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon / Hand el,

You do not need a church or a denomination to answer a difficult question. Also you should not generalise that Christianity as a whole can not answer the difficult questions that you have. Maybe you are asking the wrong people .... ?

If one has a personal relationship with God and one is seeking with all their heart (not 99.9% - 100%) then God will speak persoanlly to them and declare what they are asking to know. Of this I have no doubt.

This is not the special reservation of only one denomination. It is an individual's experience of personally knowing their Saviour (not a church doctrine) who will lead that individual into all truth.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Then answer me one question: What happens to all those that do not get a chance to here the Good News of Jesus Christ?

teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Matt24
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Acts 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

From the verses above, we can determine that the Gospel commission is to preach about the 'Good News' to all nations and to all peoples and then the end of the world shall come. Whatis the end of the world ? The end of the world shall begin with the second coming of Jesus.

So in answer to your question - we need not worry about a thing, as everything in terms of justice and mercy is in the hands of God. I prefer my own future to be in no other place than in His hands.

What about you ?

We just need to keep telling people about Jesus - that is our concern.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

So the bottom line is you ducked the question and you do not have an answer.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

I did not duck the question. I answered it from Biblical scripture - maybe you preferred not to read it carefully enough.

Please try again - the answer is there!

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

You did not address those that will never here the Name of Jesus Christ.

Teranno4x4 said...

Anon,

What does this say :

Matt24
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Acts 17
30 And the times of this IGNORANCE God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


Ignorance is not knowing Jesus! Or what do you think?

But the Bible also says that Jesus will come after everyone gets to hear about him in the world. So you see your answer is there! God winks.....! Isn't His justice Holy and on a totally different level to human kind?

I didn't think that I would have to spell it out.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

T4x4, said:

"Ignorance is not knowing Jesus! Or what do you think?"

Your were right, you did have to spell it out, I missed that part.
Not to put words in your mouth, but all those that die in ignorance get a free pass because they did not get the chance to hear the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and be baptised? That after we die we sleep until the day of Christ's return? That hearing about and excepting Jesus Christ by being baptised is not required according to the scriptures? ie. Bible?

Anonymous said...

Hebrews 6:2
instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
Hebrews 6:1-3

Sounds to me like baptism is required. If the dead rise not at all the why baptise the living?

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Let us do this your way and by-pass scripture for now.

Look logically at all the nations in the world today. There is absolutely no way that the LDS denomination will be able to track every human being that has ever lived since Adam. It is nigh on impossible. So for the ones that you can or can not track it stinks of favouritism and bias.

That is why we must have faith in God's judgement to decide who will enter into the kingdom based on the information that was available to them about Him (if anything at all)! After all, wherever one lives and whatever one does, human sense of justice and 'right and wrong' also plays a great influence in our lives. That can be a great start for a heavenly judgement consideration to see how one has behaved in this lifetime.

That is why baptism for the dead is such a non-event in the whole judgement process.

I never indicated that I presume that anyone will receive 'free pass'. Everyone must face the judgement according to their works as well as their faith. Actions (for someone's character) speaks more volumes than words and also can supplement faith.

Baptism for the living is the outward public demonstration of justification in Jesus Christ, accepting His sacrifice as a free gift to cover one's previous sin. Then the Holy Spirit is involved to start the sanctification process.

The dead do rise - righteous in the first resurrection - wicked in the second resurrection.

The two camps defined through judgement are seperate and will never mingle or exchange individuals.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

"Look logically at all the nations in the world today. There is absolutely no way that the LDS denomination will be able to track every human being that has ever lived since Adam. It is nigh on impossible. So for the ones that you can or can not track it stinks of favouritism and bias."

In my God all thing are possible.

Anonymous said...

Why do you always pick out one or two sentences and comment only on that ?

Teranno4x4 already said that God's judgement is fair and just - live with it, don't complicate it! He didn't say that God couldn't accomplish it - only that it is not logically possible for humans to do.

If you believe that the LDS CAN achieve it then carry on in your belief. Many of us don't believe that and this creates a difference.

Anonymous said...

Why do you always pick out one or two sentences and comment only on that ?

Teranno4x4 already said that God's judgement is fair and just - live with it, don't complicate it! He didn't say that God couldn't accomplish it - only that it is not logically possible for humans to do.

If you believe that the LDS CAN achieve it then carry on in your belief. Many of us don't believe that and this creates a difference.

Anonymous said...

Why do you always pick out one or two sentences and comment only on that ?

I don't have much time to go into as much detail as I would so I pick out the parts I have quesions about.

Like: Is baptism required for salvation per the New Testament.

That would be a yes or no.

If yes the what is to be done with or for all that did not have the chance to obtain it?

If no the why do Christans put so much effort into tring to show we are wrong in doing baptisms for the dead.

By way of history; The Catholics felt it was so important that they started baptising children. This I can understand. Saying it is not required per the New Testiment I don't understand.

Anonymous said...

If you believe that the LDS CAN achieve it then carry on in your belief. Many of us don't believe that and this creates a difference.


This is an LDS blog so we discuss LDS doctrines, and I ask questions to try and get a direct answer about our differences.

Anonymous said...

Ho! Yes the more I read T4x4 posts the more I think I have determined what religion or church he follows.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Before you put your foot in your mouth and declare all (possibly incorrectly) let me TELL you that I follow no religion and no denomination. This is not the correct way and I have stated that before. I have my membership in a particular denomination that is in keeping with the way that I choose to worship God and holds to a set of beliefs that I hold fast to, Biblically.

I follow only God and each day I ask Him to lead me.

This is where mistakes are too often made. It is too easy to pigeon-hole people into compartments and judge based on pre-conceived and prejudiced notions. I have not judged any commenter willing to discuss here when trying to discover personal motives for the LDS belief. It appears that someone is trying to now judge me!

But then again - it isn't about me, so please change your comments.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Anon,

Why did Jesus Himself wait until age 30 before being baptised by John the Baptist and not ask at the age of 12?

Why didn't Jesus give instruction for this ordination of baptism for the dead as He did for the Lord's Supper, if it is so important?

There is NOTHING that any one human being that has ever lived can do physically for someone else's salvation other than Jesus Christ who is KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS. It is He that died on the cross and it is through Him that the vicarious act has BEEN wrought out.

The only thing that an individual can do (whilst someone is living) is to proclaim the glorious Good News of the Resurrection. These acts are the fruits of the Spirit!

These points above expose the limitations of so named 'organised religions', some whose main motives are elsewhere in other earthly agendas.

Anonymous said...

"Why did Jesus Himself wait until age 30 before being baptised by John the Baptist and not ask at the age of 12?"

Don't know, maybe it was a Jewish tradition but when I see Him I will ask Him. That is a good point though. I will do some research and see if I can find out.

Anonymous said...

"Why didn't Jesus give instruction for this ordination of baptism for the dead as He did for the Lord's Supper, if it is so important?"

We as members of the LDS church believe that He did and that this important truth was lost. This why Jeff put togother this post to show how many of the early church fathers knew of this had starting loosing the importance of it or how it was to be preformed.

Anonymous said...

"There is NOTHING that any one human being that has ever lived can do physically for someone else's salvation other than Jesus Christ who is KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS."

Only if The LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS ask His people to do so. If He commanded us to do this then He will not make it void and without meaning.

Anonymous said...

"These points above expose the limitations of so named 'organised religions', some whose main motives are elsewhere in other earthly agendas."

When I joined the LDS church this was my hardest thing to over come. I did not think G-d needed an organised religion, but I came to see that He had one with the 12 in His early church and with the children of Isreal. And so it is now He has it on the earth once again so we can help in an orgnised way.

Anonymous said...

"These points above expose the limitations of so named 'organised religions', some whose main motives are elsewhere in other earthly agendas."

When I joined the LDS church this was my hardest thing to over come. I did not think G-d needed an organised religion, but I came to see that He had one with the 12 in His early church and with the children of Isreal. And so it is now He has it on the earth once again so we can help in an orgnised way.

Anonymous said...

Anon, 1:38 Nov. 29 2007 said:

"Why did Jesus Himself wait until age 30 before being baptised by John the Baptist and not ask at the age of 12?"


. Was there a law in the Old Testament which required a Jew to be thirty years old before he could minister the Holy things?
A. Yes. Num. 4:2-4, 35, 39, 47; Num. 16:8-9; Num. 8:14-15, 21, 22.

. How old then was Jesus when He was baptized?
A. Thirty years old. Luke 3:23

Q. What law required Him to be thirty years old before He could fulfill it?
A. The law of public ministry, the only law of the kind in the Old Testament. Num. 43-4, 35, 39, 47; Heb. 9:15-17

Q. Was the ordination or induction of Jesus into His public ministry different from other priests of His time?
A. Not in any essential feature.
It was necessary for a priest to perform then baptism, and John the Baptist was a priest. (Lev. 16:32-34), inheriting his office from his father, who was a priest. Num. 8:21-22.

The one being inducted into office must be thirty years old (Num. 4:3, 35, 39, 47), and Christ was thirty years old.

The person must be set apart to holy office by baptism (Num.8:7) and Christ was thus set apart.

Hand el

nick said...

Anon, said:


"There is NOTHING that any one human being that has ever lived can do physically for someone else's salvation other than Jesus Christ who is KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS."

Except preach the gospel of repentence and baptism for the remission of sins and give the gifts of the Spirit by the laying on of hands by a person that has the priesthood athority.

Anonymous said...

T4x4, said:

"I have my membership in a particular denomination that is in keeping with the way that I choose to worship God and holds to a set of beliefs that I hold fast to, Biblically."

Thats great. There was no disrespect intended. The religion I was thinking of, I have a great deal of respect for just like all religions. I think we also have many believes in common. I just heard where the Catholic church and Islam published a statement on where the two religions are the same. I hope I didn't offend or hurt you feelings.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

None feelings of hurt taken - or previously insinuated. I also hope that you didn't take it that way.

I just wanted to make matters clear before you maybe guessed incorrectly, or that a denomination is greater than my relationship and commitment to Jesus, which it is not.

Seeing as Islam was determined after the establishment of the catholic faith and seeing as in most Eastern countries that mostly wherever you can find a mosque, there is usually a catholic church nearby, there is bound to be some reconciliation / tolerance / ecumenism in the near future for the NWO to start it's critical agenda.

Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Hand el,

I agree totally with your answers on the age of Jesus and the reasons why.

But still - he was ministering to his own people and had been prophecied about for years, so why did they reject him and refuse to accept Him as their Messiah. Why are the Jews still waiting for a Messiah today, if what you rightly claim from the Bible passages is true ?

Also the passage that you mentioned from Hebrews 9 also gives a greater insight into the role of Jesus in the Heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest, which takes away the need for any other 'mediator' of sin (priest) today between God and man (as was necessary in the OT. That is why it was only the Mosaic / ceremonial law that was 'nailed to the cross' and not the 10 commandment law).

Teranno4x4

NM said...

Hmm, I can only err upon assumption as to why Jesus waited until He was thirty when He started His ministry.

The assumption is that when the gospel writer explained that when Mary looked for Jesus (and finally found Him in the temple), there is no mention of Joseph. The only plausible (and remember this is only an assumption) is that Joseph died when Jesus was at an early age. - if we carry on with this assumption, under Jewish law, the man who is the head of the family (if father has died), falls to the eldest - which would have been Jesus. Also, the eldest son is obliged to fulfill the legal responsibilites as head of the family until he is 30 years of age.

So, until the age of 30, we can assume that Jesus had to fulfill this law. Again, this is just an assumption... =)

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear NM,

Did Jesus NEED to fulfil any law ?

Or was the fulfilment of the law to make it clearer for the Jews to recognise that He indeed WAS the Messiah that they were waiting for and had so many prophecies about ?

The point is that they were so wrapped up in their law - that they totally missed the 'Good News' and even accused Jesus of being beelzebub!

Teranno4x4

NM said...

Teranno,

Hmm, that's a VERY interesting question... in fact it's a question that probably deserves a thesis to answer!

If Jesus did not come to fulfill the law, what do we do with Matthew's gospel when he reports that Jesus said, "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill them"?

I agree that in a way, Jesus didn't have to do ANYTHING that bears no effect to His infinite majesty...but it seems Jesus did descended from heaven to take on human form as an act of obedience - to do His Father's will...

Jesus, by not sinning DID fulfill the law...

I don't know, what do you think?

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear NM,

Do you remember a previous conversation that we started some time earlier on a previous topic, where I asked you to consider that the character of Jesus is a direct transcript of the law.

That is why I asked you the question did He NEED to fulfil the law - of course He didn't. But in the process of thought, ministry, action and the fulfilment of prophecy, He actually demonstrated to all people at that time that He did fulfil the law - even unto and at His death and resurrection.

The Jews of the time didn't understand it, because they kept the law as a rigid inflexible ritual, rather than a way of life demonstrating above anything else - love. That is why Jesus turned 'the law' upside down (whilst still fulfilling it) in a radical measure to demonstrate a different way of living that he also preached from scripture.

This I find most profound that it wasn't necessary, but shown to be an act of infinite Love. And look just how it was received. Pretty much the same as today....

Teranno4x4

NM said...

Terrano4x4,

Hmm, can I summise what I think you are saying, then afterwards tell me if what I say is what you are saying?

Here goes:

In the same way when Jesus declared that He is the embodiment of TRUTH itself, LIFE itself and the only WAY to His Father in John 14:6, you are also arguing that THE LAW itself is the embodiment of the Son? Is that right? So, when God gave the LAW to Moses, He was actually showing to Israel through Moses who His Son was?

Terrano, if this is what you are saying, then IT IS UTTERLY MIND BLOWING, and it's something that hasn't even entered into my tiny head... =D

So, Jesus didn't actually have to fulfill the LAW in the way that human beings need to fulfill the LAW in order for us to obey Him, because He IS the LAW!? Woah!

Talk about Judge Dread!

Oh, talking about films: I use movies (especially when I talk to teenagers) to communicate something of the gospel. With all the talk about censorship in one of Jeff's more recent posts, I think the use of carefully selected movies can be a great way of showing parallels between themes that exist in films and the kind of work that Jesus has done etc. One of the best movies (in my opinion) is 'The Matrix'... what do you think about the use of films to communicate something of the gospel? I know that as a student at university, I did this kind of thing quite frequently to some of my closest friends who were curious about Christianity...

Sorry to have digressed...

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear NM,

That is exactly what I was trying to say.

So, now you have it again....

Thanks for making the effort to understand what I was truly meaning.

BUT in your overall synopsis, go back to the basis that 'the law' is 'Love in embodiment', and then one can understand Jesus in the way that you just have - because God is LOVE!

Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear NM,

On movies - maybe it would be better to leave comment on the 'censorship post' rather than here.

In short, my own opinion is that movies for entertainment are a 'thing of the past'. I own a large back catalogue of many movies from many genres and have seen many many more in the past.

In being my own critic when using Philippians 4:7-9 to measure the content, I expose my own weaknesses (that sometimes I still struggle with).

In honesty, many mediums can be used to illustrate the Gospel message and the daily choices that we all must make for good or for bad. But ultimately, what would God have us do ? Get non-Christians to watch the 'Matrix' in order to come closer to an understanding about Him His will for us ?

We need to meet them where they are (just as Jesus did), but not partake of what they do (in the world, not of the world), and there are much more suitable movies to choose in order to avoid the violence and bloodshed in the Matrix. (This is hard to write as I have it on DVD too and as I said - it is something that I am struggling with too).

I know that Hollywood has a 'hidden agenda' that is more recently becoming braver and braver by pushing itself into the limelight. Just take a look at some criticisms of 'the golden compass' with Daniel Craig, and read about the content. This is aimed at young teens and will probably be given a 12 rating in UK. Will you watch it ?

I will avoid it like the plague. $175m budget - for this? Every true Christian needs to unite in prayer that truth will overpower the might of this hollywood demonic force as a direct assault on God.

Teranno4x4

NM said...

Terrano4x4,

I wonder if this is what Paul had in mind when he wrote about the subject of 'love' to the Corinthian church? So, instead of thinking about 'love' as something separate from other things, it was his intention that people make the connection that this 'love', that was the most important thing (more important than any other gift) can only be acquired when one has Jesus? As you say - God is love.

I guess this serves as a warning for those of us who profess to be Christians, that even though we desire to do His work as we outwardly say that He is Lord and this, that n' t'other...

...if we have no love (that is, we do not have a personal relationship with Jesus), we are nothing - a clanging brass...and what's even worse is that when we pass from this life to the next, because of the absence of love (Jesus) in us, we might then hear the shocking news from God when He says, "Leave my sight, I never knew you..."

Eeep.

With regard to the subject of 'movies'? Hmm, first of all, thank you for saying that this is a subject which might cause you to stumble. I will try and be as respectful as I can and maybe curb my enthusiasm for them as tools for evangelism, perhaps...

I don't know if this is the right way of putting my argument, but I guess my understanding about the use of (or merely watching for enjoyment's sake) films is something that I do not have a problem with. There are certainly films that I would rather my children stayed well clear of! But even so, there will be things that my children will experience (because of the rampancy of sin in our world) that it will prove difficult to steer them away from. And certainly in my area of work: as you know, I work with many kids who have been so abused that I sometimes come away from the therapy groups, crying. The hardships that I encounter at work far out-weigh the kinds of material presented in the most diabolical of films that I have seen in the past.

Please understand that this is such a tight-rope subject. I am aware that I do not want to cause offence to you =)

I'm glad you mentioned 'The Golden Compass'. I'm quite familiar with Philip Pullman's work (His Dark Materials). I am VERY aware of its pro-atheist messages. Such is the state of the country that we live in!

Just as the message of Christmas has been so horribly skewed, I think, as Christians, we should not steer away from it - even its most skewed origins...instead, we as people who are receivers of His LOVE, need to use to catapult the message of the gospel! So, Christmas is an excellent way of starting conversations with people: Christmas soon, huh? What do you make of it? What's it all about? There must be more to Christmas than merely shopping? There must be? What do you think? Can I tell you what I think? etc. etc...

So, the same with 'The Golden Compass'...even though there are aspects of excessive violence etc and its promotion of atheism, we as lovers of TRUTH, might use the film to instigate conversations with our friends. What do you think? We are not of the world, but Jesus' prayer to God is not that we might be taken out of it, but that we are protected by the evil one...

I would love to read some of your thoughts on The Golden Compass. There I was getting all excited and thinking, Oooh, when and which of my close friends could I go and see that with? If you have any reservations, I would love to hear them and will respectfully receive your counsel.

NM said...

In fact, and this might sound a little silly, but I hope you realise the weight of what I will say: is that I actually find songs like, 'I Did It My Way' or songs that promote self as MORE offensive than watching excessive violence or looking at excessive misery of people in films and books etc.

At least, in a weird kind of a way, such depcitions of life - used in movies are very much in touch with reality! Yes, excessive violence does permeate in modern films and yes, there may be films which portray sex and may touch on the sensitive subject of domestic violence and rape and what not...but these are all observations which VERY MUCH exist in our world. In fact, they have ALWAYS existed. Excessive violence in films? We need to open our eyes, wake up and see that we are surrounded by a world in UTTER DESPAIR!

But what can one do when we hear songs like, 'I Did It My Way' done so beautifully, sung by a good looking guy in his smartly dressed suit, looking all nostalgic? What can you do when people think that you're beeing a kill-joy for condemning songs that promote self? Talk about deception from the devil's lips!

And the truth, as you and I know it, is that WE CANNOT DO IT OUR WAY. We need a Saviour to save us from the desperate situation we live in! We need a Saviour who will bring justice to the many acts of attrocity, to man's greed etc. Make poverty history? What a crock. The campaign should have read, 'Make GREED History'.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear NM,

I agree with everything that you have said already.

Music is a different topic altogether and you have only named one song.

I will give you a personal testimony on this subject. A good friend has recently been having difficulty with a couple of teenage sons that she has. Nothing usual you may say, except that she has been battling cancer for the last 10+ years or so. What the boys are doing is nothing too outrageous except being boisterous and sometimes casually disrespectful of the household's faith.

Understanding where the boys are coming from (having been very much like them in my youth), I asked them to consider the passage in Phillipians and then let them loose on judging my entire music collection gathered from when I was just 12 years old.

Not a lot remains in residue for a 'true' Christian - I can assure you, and there was everything there from calming Enya, through Madonna and Eric Clapton, up to the likes of Guns and Roses and Extreme. Now none existent in my CD collection.

It proved to me that if the youth of today's Christianity can recognise the evils of music when measured by scripture, exactly who are we deceiving by entertaining the 'medium'. It also made them think about their own Spiritual future and let them take stock of where they are!

This music was not the 'Fruit of the right Spirit'...

As the world stoops lower and lower away from God and into sin, should we be subjected to the titillation of visual and audible memories.

Read the passage in Philippians again. Didn't Jesus say 'If you eye causes you to sin cut it out. It is better to lose an eye than the whole body? .... Or something to that effect ? So presumably if someone looks lustfully at another woman, they commit adultary, and if a man has anger at another man, he can commit effectual murder ? What happens when these sensual images are on screen - does the same apply for the audience?

I am beginning to think so...

'The golden compass' where the film's key message is that it is the film to kill God - strikes at the very depth of everything that is evil and should not be tolerated in the slightest by any God fearing man. Can you possibly humanly imagine the world's chaos without God ? Thankfully, it will never take place.

We need to collectively pray for God's protection and guidance against the outright evil spiritual onslaught about to begin.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

"I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill them"?

Christ came to fulfill the law of baptism and required it for all to receive, not all will be able to obtain it an therefore will not obtain salvation.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

If you had read the above comments more carefully, maybe you would come to appreciate that salvation is not ONLY granted through baptism.

This seems to be the great hang-up with you personally if you are the 'Hand el' anon.

The fulfilment of the law was not necessary FOR Jesus to do (because he was God incarnate), but he did it anyway to be our example as to how we are to live our lives and follow His leading (as the flock to the call of the shepherd). He baptised only once and as you stated - that was for himself again as an example to us. Did he need to be cleansed from sin ? Did he need to be justified ? Answers to both - of course not - he NEVER sinned.

So nothing was done by proxy in terms of baptismal example. This is a tradition of man who has since made it into an outright vicarious doctrine.

Don't get so caught up in baptism that you miss the other necessary elements of the Gospel message. I can assure you, baptism alone does not save!

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Acts 2:37-38 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Now you can go against the scriptures but it is clear that is nessary. There are many other scriptures that command your to be baptised but it is up to you.

Anonymous said...

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days," (Acts 10:44-48).

So I am taking what you are saying that I should not obey the commandments of the scriptures?

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

I am not going against scripture, nor am I asking you to do it.

Please understand my words - one can not achieve salvation through baptism alone. Nor can vicarious baptism secure salvation for someone already dead.

Salvation can only be achieved through the free gift that is on offer from the sinless sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Believing in him, repenting of one's sins, understanding how worthless we are because of our sins and then baptising and accepting the Holy Spirit into our lives with the eventual aim of sinning no more. This is the Gospel message completely.

Question - what happens if an individual baptises but doesn't believe in Jesus or that he / she doesn't wish to repent because of their inbuilt pride. Will they receive salvation, just because they are baptised ?

That is my meaning. Baptism alone does not save!

Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

Anon,

A very important point that has just come to mind.

Jesus, whilst on earth had the power to perform miracles of healing (amongst many others), both physically and through the forgiveness of sin.

When you consider the examples of Nicodemus, the rich young ruler or any of the sick that were brought to Him, how many times do you hear the message given to them to 'GO AND BE BAPTISED BECAUSE IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT YOU CAN DO' ? Jesus never said this to any of these examples because He gave instruction to His disciples to do it as a public demonstration for an individual's repentance from sin. I seem to recall that Jesus did Himself baptise others - but I need to double check on this.

What he did say to these people is that they needed to "be born again", "sell all that you have and follow me" and "go and sin no more". It is attitude and the mindset to accept Jesus and His will for our lives that is the whole focus for the transforming power after one's repentance that is the infinite key.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

The scriptures are clear. You can not obtain forgiveness of sin and obtain the gifts without the baptism of water and the spirit ie. the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Your may obtain salvation by believing on the Name of Jesus Christ but inorder to obtain a higher salvation you must be baptised.

Anonymous said...

Question - what happens if an individual baptises but doesn't believe in Jesus or that he / she doesn't wish to repent because of their inbuilt pride. Will they receive salvation, just because they are baptised ?

Believing on the name of Jesus Christ plus baptism the obtaining the Gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands by the priesthood is all nessary. Not just believing on the name of Jesus Chirst. My only point is baptism is required as one of the nessary stepts. Without it you can not go to the Father.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Through Jesus, all things are possible.

That is why (where possible) yes baptism should be performed as a demonstration for an individual's repentance. But it is not the bea all' and 'end all'. I state again - baptism in whatever capacity does not guarantee salvation.

Also salvation is salvation (by definition - through Jesus, accepted by the Father) - what do you mean - "inorder to obtain a higher salvation you must be baptised" ? Is this Biblical ?

Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

oooops - "be all and end all"

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

And the master Jesus Christ said:

"Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you" (Matthew 28:19- 20).

We can do our own thing but if we trully want to obey His commandments it baptism is a part of obtaing salvation.

Anonymous said...

►Mark 16:15-16

And he said unto them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Now I agree entirely with you. Baptism is a PART of the process toward salvation.

Let's take the verse that you quote in Mark. I prefer the KJV.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

My belief is in the key to this text. Notice that Jesus actually says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

He does not say "but he that believeth not or is not baptised shall be damned".

Therefore it is safe to assume that for the believer (wherever possible) they should look to baptism in Jesus. Where it is not possible, it should be left in God's hands. Ultimately, the core of the matter comes down to believing or not believing. This life changing decision (according to the scripture quoted) is the difference between salvation and damnation. Baptism as you rightly said is only the starting part of the process for the believer on his road towards salvation.

Anonymous said...

Therefore it is safe to assume that for the believer (wherever possible) they should look to baptism in Jesus. Where it is not possible, it should be left in God's hands. Ultimately, the core of the matter comes down to believing or not believing. This life changing decision (according to the scripture quoted) is the difference between salvation and damnation. Baptism as you rightly said is only the starting part of the process for the believer on his road towards salvation.

The little work "and" is not whenever possible. Believing is the first stept, then repentence, then baptism and then ect.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Can an individual be baptised and yet still disbelieve ?

I believe that this can be so - this is the power of choice. If this is the case, what becomes more important, the belief or the baptism ?

Go back to my earlier comment on Nicodemus, the rich young ruler and the many healings. What did Jesus say again - 'go and be baptised' ?

What he did say to these people is that they needed to "Be born again", "Sell all that you have and follow me" AND "Go and sin no more". It is ATTITUDE and the MINDSET to accept Jesus and His will for our lives that is the whole focus for the transforming power after one's repentance that is the infinite key. Baptism is a part of the whole process - a PART !


Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

What would you do if you were caught in the deserts of North Africa and you were witnessing to people who as a result wanted to be baptised there and then, but there was no water apart from the bottles that you were carrying for drinking purposes.

That was what I am talking about - whenever possible. It may not be practical for the exact time that someone spontaneously requests baptism.

What would happen if Jesus came back before you could arrange a baptism for these people - do you really believe in your heart that they would be lost after they had made the choice to believe ?

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

I don't think anyone that trully wants to serve Christ will be lost but all will be required to be baptised as the scriptures state and this is why there is baptism for the dead. In Christ all things are possible.

Anonymous said...

"Can an individual be baptised and yet still disbelieve ?"

Sure, but no person that trys to repent should be denied baptism and if they lie they need to repent. They should never be forced but always make the offer.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

I don't think that anyone should be denied baptism either. But whoever is in charge of the ordination should diligently find out how genuine a request it is - or not ?

So can one be saved by baptism without believing?

Or can one be saved by believing, but without being baptised - please consider the desert example given...?

Before you go on to baptism for the dead, this principal needs to be answered first....

Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Re: Baptism for the dead...

The verse in Mark 16 says "16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

It doesn't say he that believeth and have someone baptised on his behalf. The verse states that an individual needs to believe and be baptised themselves.

If you believe in a spirit world, can't the spirits baptise themselves spiritually ? In Jesus all things are possible according to your theology? Why must it be done by proxy by us living now? Why can't Jesus perform it? The fact for me personally is that He has spoken and it states an ordinance that needs to be performed in our lifetime for a specific reason. ie. No second chance !

I just can not unravel your Biblical logic on this point when I take all your comments. And believe me I want very much to make 2 + 2 = 4, and not 3 or 5.

Respectfully,

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

"Or can one be saved by believing, but without being baptised?"

No, not per the scriptures. Both plus other things are required.

Anonymous said...

"It doesn't say he that believeth and have someone baptised on his behalf."

I agree, but the one scripture plus the early church fathers that talk about this understood this principle but over time it became rejected. This is why the Mormons say there was a need for a complete restitution. Many have felt the need but they have been refered to a reformations.

Anonymous said...

If you believe in a spirit world, can't the spirits baptise themselves spiritually ? In Jesus all things are possible according to your theology? Why must it be done by proxy by us living now? Why can't Jesus perform it? The fact for me personally is that He has spoken and it states an ordinance that needs to be performed in our lifetime for a specific reason. ie. No second chance !

All very good questions, and I have to agree. There is no second chance for those that have the first chance and reject it. But because He is a just G-d then he wants all to have an equal chance to choose. Could He have done it different? I am sure He could have. But for us this is the way He has directed us to do it. I agree that it is strange and I am one that does not like orgnized religions but I see now that it is nessary for it to be just. There is another scripture where Jesus Christ states that they nether marry or are given in marrage after this life. The same applies. When G-d joins them togother in this life by the priesthood no one but G-d can take them apart.

Anonymous said...

If you believe in a spirit world, can't the spirits baptise themselves spiritually ? In Jesus all things are possible according to your theology? Why must it be done by proxy by us living now? Why can't Jesus perform it? The fact for me personally is that He has spoken and it states an ordinance that needs to be performed in our lifetime for a specific reason. ie. No second chance !

All very good questions, and I have to agree. There is no second chance for those that have the first chance and reject it. But because He is a just G-d then he wants all to have an equal chance to choose. Could He have done it different? I am sure He could have. But for us this is the way He has directed us to do it. I agree that it is strange and I am one that does not like orgnized religions but I see now that it is nessary for it to be just. There is another scripture where Jesus Christ states that they nether marry or are given in marrage after this life. The same applies. When G-d joins them togother in this life by the priesthood no one but G-d can take them apart.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

There is still a little problem with your theology and he is named satan.

God wants to save all of us, wicked included. But He asks that we repent from our sinful ways never to go back. This demonstrates our allegiance to His heavenly ways.

Any minute way that we give in to temptation, whether planned or unconsciously; this will be enough to bring our downfall. Sin can no longer stand in any form before the throne of God. Sure we have Jesus to speak on our behalf as our hevenly advocate, because He paid the price for our sin.

BUT if satan can prove that we have not demonstrated in thoughts and deeds the very character of the person that we profess to love, then we stand condemned with no way out. Baptism is effectively a very personal and individual demonstration that is part of the salvation seal. That seal is not guaranteed though. Also if through Jesus all things are possible, why can you not accept the verse where 'God winks at ignorance'? satan can not attempt to condemn someone if they have never heard the Gospel message. But he can try according to the deeds of evil that they have maybe perpetrated. If they haven't how can they stand accused to be lost? This is the part which I can not bridge the gap with. Jesus stated - ' If I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto me' . Note the ALL (not baptised).

Again - one can only accept the baptism for the dead in the whole concept of belief of the early church fathers and the latter 'restored gospel'. This is why this doctrine is based on the beliefs of man and not the beliefs of Jesus and why I see there can be limitations in this counsel.

The whole topic of marriage in heaven is slightly different. The text actually says that we will be like the angels. This is talking about our celestial forms in that the angels are not able to procreate. This doctrine is unproven Biblically and any discussion is purely hypothetical.

I prefer to accept Jesus words of wisdom again that we have no idea to start to imagine of what He is preparing for us, that will be our home.

Teranno4x4

NM said...

"Both plus other things are required"

ARRRGHH!!! NOoooo! This is NOT the gospel!!! This is EXACTLY what I have been speaking against! Anonymous, you align yourself with the Galatian church when you say such things! Paul gave them a stark warning - that this is NOT the gospel. It is in fact, just as the prosperity (health, wealth) gospel is preached a false gospel...

Please understand my deepest sincerity and I urge you: please reconsider your position.

Anonymous said...

I can not reconsider my position,
because Christ's gift of grace is good for the ressurection but it is contary to the scriptures.We need to make aeffort to comply with His commandments or it is making a mockery of the scriptures where we need hope, faith, believe, repent, baptism,gift of the Holy Spitit and keep all other commandments.

Anonymous said...

So why do you worship on Sunday and not on a Sabbath Day ?

Anonymous said...

Because I am commanded to. I must comply. After I am save by grace I must work for my salvation by working to have hope, then I must work to have a believe, then I must work to have faith, then I must work to repent, then I must work to be baptised, then I must work to obtain the gifts of the Spirit, then I must work to keep the commandments, then I must work to love my fellow humans requardless of how bad they are. Work, work, work off to work we go.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Look deeper into your 'perceived commandment' and you will find that Sunday Worship was 'officially' started by the catholic church. They take ALL responsibility for all Sunday keeping churches that treat this day as their day of worship.

It is the day of the Sun and as expected historically was a special day for the pagan Romans. Thus in the early Roman Christian church, many pagan doctrines were amalgamated with Christianity in order to become more widely universal in it's application for the masses.

Many denominations followed suit latterly and the meaning of the original consecrated 'day of rest' sanctified at Creation, is now viewed by many as the 'forgotten Commandment' especially when it starts with the word "Remember" !

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

But I keep the Sabbath Day per Joseph Smith. I live and die by his revelations.

Anonymous said...

The New Testament is replete with references to the Sabbath. By then, some had lost the spirit of the law and hedged it in inflexible obedience. The Savior reproved them: "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Wherefore the Sabbath was given unto man for a day of rest; and also that man should glorify God,…For the Son of Man made the Sabbath day, therefore the Son of Man is Lord also of the Sabbath" (JST Mark 2:25-27). Following Jesus' earthly ministry, the early Christians gathered on the Lord's day, the first day of the week, in observance of his resurrection (cf. Acts 20:7; Rev. 1:10).

Since its beginning, the LDS Church has observed the Sabbath on the first, rather than the seventh, day of the week (for some exceptions in the Middle East, see Sunday). The key revelation giving the pattern, scope, and purpose of Sabbath observance came to Joseph Smith on August 7, 1831, a Sunday:

And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day; For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High;…But remember that on this, the Lord's day…thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full [D&C 59:9-13].

Teranno4x4 said...

Anon,

The first section of your first paragraph I totally agree with. For many Jews of the day, the Sabbath had become a ritualistic strict disciplinarian observance of 'do nots', rather than delighting in the worship of God. This is exactly what Jesus rebuked them for, nothing else. It had nothing to do with referencing or changing the day, more simply a rebuke of the attitudes of their hearts toward the Sabbath day and it's true purpose.

The verse that you offered in Acts says nothing about honouring the resurrection. Why did Paul not travel on the Sabbath day (seventh day of the week)? Because it was not his custom and he was worshipping God. The breaking of the bread after sun down indicated the start of the first day of the week and simply refers to eating a meal - not an ordination of any kind that you infer. Notice later in the chapter after Eutychus is brought back to life, he breaks bread and eats again referring to another meal. When it is light, Paul continues the journey. If Sunday WAS the new Sabbath - why do this when he would be breaking this 'new' law. No, Paul understood the importance of the true Sabbath day and that was why he did not travel on the planned long distance trip out of reverence.

"“The passage is not entirely convincing, because the impending departure of the apostle may have united the little Church in a brotherly parting-meal, on occasion of which the apostle delivered his last address, although there was no particular celebration of a Sunday in the case” (The History of the Christian Religion and Church, tr. Henry John Rose, vol. 1, p. 337)"

The verse in Revelation that you highlight again uses a slightly different language to similar texts in scripture. Let me try to explain :

Lord’s day. Gr. kuriakeµ heµmera. Various attempts have been made to explain this expression, which appears only here in Scripture. Some interpreters equate this term with “the day of the Lord” of the OT prophets (see Joel 2:11, 31; Zeph. 1:14; Mal. 4:5; cf. Acts 2:20). It may be granted that, taken by themselves, the words might be so interpreted. Those who thus explain the expression point to the fact that the Revelation focuses attention on the great final day of the Lord and events leading up to it (see on Rev. 1:1). To be “in the Spirit on the Lord’s day” could possibly be understood as meaning to be carried in vision down the stream of time to witness events connected with the day of the Lord.
There are, however, reasons for rejecting this interpretation. In the first place, when the phrase “day of the Lord” clearly designates the great day of God the Greek is always heµmera tou kuriou or heµmera kuriou (1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14; 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10). Second, the context (Rev. 1:9, 10) implies that the term “Lord’s day” refers to the time when John saw the vision, rather than the subject of the vision. Thus, John gives his location, “the isle that is called Patmos” (v. 9); his reason for being there, “for the word of God” (v. 9); and his condition in vision, “in the Spirit.” These phrases all have to do with the circumstances under which the vision was given, and it is logical to conclude that the fourth does also, giving the specific time of the revelation. Most expositors so conclude.
Although unique in Scripture, the term kuriakeµ heµmera has a long history in post-Biblical Greek. Like its abbreviated form, kuriakeµ, it is a familiar term in the Church Fathers for the first day of the week, and in modern Greek kuriakeµ is the usual term for Sunday. Its Latin equivalent, dominica dies, is a common designation for the same day, and has passed into several modern languages, such as Spanish, domingo, and French, dimanche, both terms for Sunday. For this reason many scholars hold the opinion that kuriakeµ heµmera in the present passage also refers to Sunday, and that John not only received his vision on that day but also recognized it as “the Lord’s day,” presumably because on that day Christ had risen from the dead.
There are both negative and positive reasons for rejecting this interpretation. First is the recognized principle of historical method, that an allusion is to be interpreted only in terms of evidence that is previous to it in point of time or contemporary with it, and not by historical data from a later period. This principle has an important bearing on the problem of the meaning of the expression “Lord’s day” as it appears in the present passage. Although this term occurs frequently in the Church Fathers with the meaning of Sunday, the first conclusive evidence of such use does not appear until the latter part of the 2d century in the Apocryphal Gospel According to Peter (9, 12; ANF, vol. 9, p. 8), where the day of Christ’s resurrection is termed the “Lord’s day.” Since this document was written at least three quarters of a century after John wrote the Revelation, it cannot be presented as a proof that the phrase “Lord’s day” in John’s time refers to Sunday. Numerous examples might be cited to show the rapidity with which words can change their meanings. Therefore the meaning of “Lord’s day” here is better determined by reference to Scripture rather than to subsequent literature.
On the positive side of the question is the fact that although the Scripture nowhere identifies Sunday as having any religious connection with the Lord, repeatedly it recognizes that the seventh day, the Sabbath, is the Lord’s special day. God is said to have blessed and sanctified the seventh day (see Gen. 2:3); He declared it to be the memorial of His act of creation (see Ex. 20:11); He called it specifically “my holy day” (see Isa. 58:13); and Jesus declared Himself to be “Lord also of the sabbath” (see Mark 2:28) in the sense that as Lord of men, He was also Lord over that which was made for man, the Sabbath. Thus, when the phrase “Lord’s day” is interpreted in accordance with evidence prior to and contemporary with John’s time, it appears that there is only one day to which it can refer, and that is the seventh-day Sabbath.

'An authoritative catechism for priests says: “But the Church of God has in her wisdom ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath day should be transferred to ‘the Lord’s day’” (Catechism of the Council of Trent, Donovan translation, 1829 ed., p. 358). This catechism was written by order of this great council, and published under the auspices of Pope Pius V.'

Seeing as Joseph Smith had his 'revelation' on August 7 1831, this is well after the day was originally recognised and well after the so named authoritative church had officially laid their claim. So is this a copy, a deceipt or 'new light' ? Also why copy the pagan Roman laws for time, starting your sabbath at midnight on Sun morn until midnight Sun night?

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Don't care. If G-d wanted to declare the sabbath in the middle of the week or to start having sabbath twice a week I could care less. What day or how many time a week or month or year is up to G-d.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Once again you are quite correct and as such you should care!

You can read about how God planned everything in perfection in Genesis 2:1,2&3 . Once something is sanctified by God, can it be changed ? Does God change His attitudes, standards or character to suit man ? Or is man supposed to change his attitudes, standards and character to meet with God. An interesting dilemma don't you think ?

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Yes! G-d has changed many things from the Old Testiment to the New Testiment.

NM said...

Hi Anonymous,

Would you be able to give some Biblical examples of what God has changed from the Old Testament to the New? =)

Anonymous said...

613 mitzvot laws the Jewish religion require. Christ fullied most if not all. The passover and the scrament are different. Baptism is now a center point but in the old Jewish law is was a cleaning of the body.

NM said...

Hi Anonymous,

I don't know what you mean by your brief summaries. It'd be really helpful to me if you could explain just a bit more about what you mean by the passover and baptism? What is your understanding of the passover? And you've hinted at the importance of baptism in terms of salvation, but would you be able to explain it a little more? If you could point to specific Scripture OR point me to LDS theology (preferably online), that would be great =) Thanks again.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

You are trying to escape the question without being specific.

You mention 'things' and the OT and NT as if they are different in some way.

The only difference is Jesus who was born to explain to the 'chosen nation of Israel' the embodiment of 'their law'. The passover lamb, incarnate. Our very salvation, incarnate.

Baptism is a symbolic demonstration and as has been stated by me previously - will not save you on it's own. This is only achieved by accepting the blood of Jesus in payment and remission for one's sins.

At this specific time of the year many Christians prefer to commemorate this event (even though the date itself is based on a Roman pagan festival of Sol invictus or rebirth of the sun-god), I choose to step off this commercial conveyor belt to think about the true meaning of the bith of Jesus, not Christ-mass!

Going back to the question, when did God (or Jesus if you prefer) authorise the changing of the originally perfectly sanctified Sabbath day ? Please don't mention man's interpretation or a prophet. I really mean God Himself. As you stated - it is up to God !

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

"Baptism is a symbolic demonstration and as has been stated by me previously."

It all of it is symbolic (baptism for the remission of sins, the laying on of hands for the Gifts of the Spirit or the Priesthood that Peter had and is nessary to have the athority of G-d to act in His name) then why bother? This is where we differ with most of the Christian world. They say it is only symbolic but we say it is nessary as I have pointed out with baptism. And it would follow that the Gifts of the Spirit and the Priesthood would also be required. At least for us.

NM,

I will try to follow up with your questions but it may take some time. I am not trying to avoid any answers I just don't have a lot of time.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

This is where maybe NM and I do differ from you (if I can speak presumptuously, NM? ).

Would you say that the gifts of the Spirit are essential, Anon ?

You see I am sure that we would believe that the fruits of the Spirit are more essential, which is how one uses the gifts given.

You remember Jesus' parable of the talents, where one man dug a hole in the ground and hid what he had ? This man is symbolic of the baptism, the gifts and the priesthood, yet he was rebuked for his actions? Would he be looking forward to salvation with this evidence - I think not, so what is the point for all his diligent actions to be so careful to protect his perceived 'inheritance' ?

The answer still comes down to personal attitude and acceptance of Jesus that opens up one's heart to ALL of the necessary changes that are to happen naturally when the Holy Spirit is allowed to dwell within.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

"The answer still comes down to personal attitude and acceptance of Jesus that opens up one's heart to ALL of the necessary changes that are to happen naturally when the Holy Spirit is allowed to dwell within."

Again, this is only the start. Baptism, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and Priesthood must follow. I am sure that you do not believe that any of these exist and are necssary.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

I am sorry to say that you have your theology upside down.

You must have a tree that has it's roots firmly in the foundation of the ground before it bears fruit. If it is uprooted or in the wrong soil it will slowly wither and die (in human terms - going through the motions).

The processes of repentance, baptism, (you say priesthood), gifts and indwelling of the Holy Spirit etc... are the establishments of the roots of our belief in the Truth that is Jesus Christ.

Once these roots are established, then the tree can bear fruit and these my friend are the fruits of the Spirit. They are NOT our initiated fruits.

That is why the parables of the fig tree that bears fruit Luke 13:6-9, the parables of the aforementioned talents and the instruction to the disciples that they will have the Comforter sent to them, are so, so important in understanding these matters.

We can achieve absolutely nothing in terms of heavenly salvation for ourselves or others, based on our own efforts.

One can not have fruits first and gifts second. That is why I stated that all of the ordinances can only take place after the attitude and decision for Jesus is correct. Then follows the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that will bear fruit for our 'tree' . This is the logical process.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

NM, said:
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,859-84,00.html
"I don't know what you mean by your brief summaries. It'd be really helpful to me if you could explain just a bit more about what you mean by the passover and baptism? What is your understanding of the passover? And you've hinted at the importance of baptism in terms of salvation, but would you be able to explain it a little more? If you could point to specific Scripture OR point me to LDS theology (preferably online), that would be great =) Thanks again."
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Baptism.shtml
http://www.mybiblebase.com/modules/mybiblebase/viewstudy_61.html
http://www.trustbible.com/salvation.htm
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/po-eat.htm

I have always taken that the last supper and was held during the passover to replace the passover. Again all thing pointed to Christ and the New Covenant or the Baptism, Gifts of the Holy Spirt by the laying on of hands, sacrament of bread and wine and the obtaining of the Priesthood. All things old are replaced with the new ordinances that the Christ gave to the Apostles. And all these thing were lost and needed to be restored by G-d to Joseph Smith.

Anonymous said...

NM, said:
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,859-84,00.html
"I don't know what you mean by your brief summaries. It'd be really helpful to me if you could explain just a bit more about what you mean by the passover and baptism? What is your understanding of the passover? And you've hinted at the importance of baptism in terms of salvation, but would you be able to explain it a little more? If you could point to specific Scripture OR point me to LDS theology (preferably online), that would be great =) Thanks again."
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Baptism.shtml
http://www.mybiblebase.com/modules/mybiblebase/viewstudy_61.html
http://www.trustbible.com/salvation.htm
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/po-eat.htm

I have always taken that the last supper and was held during the passover to replace the passover. Again all thing pointed to Christ and the New Covenant or the Baptism, Gifts of the Holy Spirt by the laying on of hands, sacrament of bread and wine and the obtaining of the Priesthood. All things old are replaced with the new ordinances that the Christ gave to the Apostles. And all these thing were lost and needed to be restored by G-d to Joseph Smith.

Anonymous said...

"I am sorry to say that you have your theology upside down."

To those that are spiritually blind it would appear upside down. It all depends at what view you are looking at it from. Looking at the gospel without the restoration given to Joseph Smith many important things would appear different.

Anonymous said...

"The answer still comes down to personal attitude and acceptance of Jesus that opens up one's heart to ALL of the necessary changes that are to happen naturally when the Holy Spirit is allowed to dwell within."

Again I and the scriptures disagree. A personal attitude and acceptance of Jesus is just the first stept then baptism, the giving of the Gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands and then the priesthood. These you cannot just think or wish your way into. The New Testiment tell of examples where it was necessary to obtain these blessing from other people not just out of heaven.

Teranno4x4 said...

Hi Anon,

Come on, I am Spiritually blind? There are many scriptures in the Bible that talk about gifts, fruits, faith and works. To get them muddled up in your own perceived doctrine of 'works' is exactly what the Bible warns against. The 'works' that it discusses come to a Christian unconsciously as a result of the Gifts of the Spirit which are outward acts demonstrated and seen as the Fruits of the Spirit, mainly in that they can lead others also to Jesus and to salvation.

It is that simple and no more complicated.

Baptism, laying of hands, and other ordinances can not guarantee this and do not come afterwards, but before at the outset demonstration of repentance.

The Christian's growth is a long one and is not kickstarted into full speed automatically like some kind of magic. One day a sinner and the next day at full maturity. The tempo needs to grow as the Spirit dwells within us. Observe the disciples. Theuy were with Jesus for 3.5 years and still did not comprehend His message fully until maybe a further 3.5 years had past at the day of Pentecost.

That is why when the winds of strife come, it is better to be a sturdy oak, rather than a shallow sycamore, with roots planted deep into the Rock.

If you still disagree, then please explain the parables of Jesus mentioned from your understanding.

Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

Anon,

By the way, the last supper also involved an act of humility by Jesus in washing His disciples feet.

Do you wash people's feet before you take the ordinance of the token of the bread and the wine, in order to complete the 'remembrance' and prepare yourself in similar humility?

What did Jesus say to Peter when Peter asked to be washed also on his hands and his head, symbolic of baptismal cleansing ? Do you see the connection to only being baptised once as an ordinance, but maybe having one's feet washed in remembrance?

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

"Baptism, laying of hands, and other ordinances can not guarantee this and do not come afterwards, but before at the outset demonstration of repentance."

I would say these come after a beliefe in the Christ and are the very works that Christ and His apostles preched and were retained some what in the Catholic church but lost to most of the Christian churches.

"Come on, I am Spiritually blind? "

I would say alot of us are spiritually blind to alot of things and we learn grace upon grace just a Christ did.

"If you still disagree, then please explain the parables of Jesus mentioned from your understanding."

Which parables was this?

Anonymous said...

"Do you wash people's feet before you take the ordinance of the token of the bread and the wine,..."

Not at that time but when requested or required I do this. It is one of the ordiences that was lost and then restored. I would further agree that it should be used more but I don't run the church nor am I starting my own religion. I is better to obey than to burn.

Anonymous said...

"Do you see the connection to only being baptised once as an ordinance, but maybe having one's feet washed in remembrance?"

We understand the bread and wine being a weekly ordience where renew our the ordience of baptism and the washing of feet comes at a nother time when commanded by G-d. No need to be baptised more than once, however some have to renew their covenents.

Anonymous said...

"Spiritually blind?"

I did not mean this to be rude. I know from reading your postings that you have a great understanding and insight of the scriptures, but you view them as I did before I put them in the context of the restoration.

The examples that come to mind is "G-d is a Spirit..." but when I was showned that there are scriptures that describe G-d as having a physical body I read the scriptures from front to back (this was the days before the internet) and pull out all of them that described the physical body.

The other view was baptism. Why put them in if it is not important?

Anonymous said...

"The Christian's growth is a long one and is not kickstarted into full speed automatically like some kind of magic. One day a sinner and the next day at full maturity. The tempo needs to grow as the Spirit dwells within us."

I agree with your above statement about spiritual growth, however I am talking about necessary ordiances that help lead to more spiritual growth. I know you may not agree but unless you have experienced it I may be hard to judge.

Anonymous said...

"...more about what you mean by the passover..."

Christ became the passover and introduced the bread and wine. Then they eat the lamb now we eat the bread.

NM said...

Anonymous!

That's a fantastic observation! =D

So, in Exodus 12 (I think) God told them to eat lamb; also, they were told to use the blood of the lamb to paint their door-posts with! For what purpose? Do you remember?

During hat 'last supper', Jesus did something quite outrageous! =) The usual passover occassion would have been steeped in tradition. Aswell as a meal, there would have been some liturgy; a type of call and response session using Psalms etc... and because Jesus was seen as the teacher, it would have been Jesus who called and His disciples might have given their part of the scripted response. INSTEAD, Jesus does something OUTRAGEOUS!?!

As He starts to dish out the bread and wine, he makes the outrageous claim that He IS that bread and that His blood IS that wine! Can you see the resemblance of Old Testament lamb eating and blood smearing on posts to Jesus' bread eating and wine drinking?

What was this all in purpose of?

First, what was the purpose of the very first passover meal as described in Exodus? Why did God instruct the Israelites to smear blood on their posts? So how does this relate to Jesus? =D

Anonymous said...

Jesus is liken in the Old Testament to many types. We are most familiar with Jesus being likened unto a lamb.
The first Passover feast eaten by the Jews in Egypt was to become a memorial feast for the people. The Lord's Supper (communion) is the New Testament corresponding type to Christ. Both the Passover feast and the Lord's supper have many things in common. They had the same meaning: (A memorial: Passover was to remember Egypt, while the Lord's Supper, to remember Christ's death Ex 12:26/1 Cor 11:25) Each feast used a young, innocent and perfect lamb: (Ex 12:5/ John 1:29; 1 Pe 1:19) The Jews were to eat the flesh of the Passover lamb Ex 12:8, while Christians are to eat the flesh (bread) of Christ (1 Cor 11:27). The Jews were not allowed to break any bones of the lamb when they ate it: Ex 12:46 + Num 9:12. In the same manner the Christian's "Passover lamb" had no bone broken as prophesied in Ps 34:20 and fulfilled in Jn 19:33-36. The blood of the Jewish Passover lamb was to be painted on the outside of the door so that when the death angel came to destroy all of Egypt, he would "Passover" that house and not kill the occupants. (Thus the reason why it is called the "Passover" feast.) The blood of the Christian's Passover lamb is for the forgiveness of sins, so that when Judgment day comes, we will not be destroyed in Hell. Matthew 26:27.

Symbolism and the crucifix, I have heard a story that the passover lamb was tie to a cross like stick in a crucifix like manner but have never been able to confirm this.

I agree with T4x4 that there are many things in all or LDS religion that are nothing more than symbolism but many of the ordinances are required and must be preformed before we can fully qualify all of Christs blessings. For example the bread and wine are symbols but baptism is not. The laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Spirit and the Priesthood is symbolic but the result is not symbolic but an required ordinance.

Anonymous said...

Also we eat and drink of the bread and wine (water) each Sunday to renew the covenants we took at baptism so it is like being rebaptised each time we partake of the scrament.

NM said...

Hi Anonymous,

Thank you for those references! =D

I find it amazing how you are able to (it seems) present such references with amazing clarity =)

Hmm, I'm wondering whether my intentions are actually congruent with yours. Your intention is to show examples of some of the seemingly new things LDS people do in relation to New Testament scripture (is that right?) and where mine is to show just how amazing this Jesus was in how everything He did - fulfilled Old Testament prophecy! =)

So, it seems we're adding good information to the conversation, but I'm not actually meeting you at the level with which you are trying to argue. Would say that was true?

Anyway, I think what I'd like to say is: with all the references you have kindly given (and THEY ARE AMAZING!)...look to the fact that Jesus fulfilled each of those things that were done in the Old Testament! =D

I don't know about you, but I am just ASTOUNDED by who Jesus was when He came to earth! =D And to have salvation - all we need to do is to receive Him by faith, because it seems, He is the fulfillment of the Law! =) Thank God! =D

Anonymous said...

Your intention is to show examples of some of the seemingly new things LDS people do in relation to New Testament scripture (is that right?) Yes.

So, it seems we're adding good information to the conversation, but I'm not actually meeting you at the level with which you are trying to argue. Would say that was true? Yes.

Look to the fact that Jesus fulfilled each of those things that were done in the Old Testament! =D Agreed.

I don't know about you, but I am just ASTOUNDED by who Jesus was when He came to earth! =D And to have salvation - all we need to do is to receive Him by faith, because it seems, He is the fulfillment of the Law! =) Thank God! =D

Yes to the first and third part. But on the second part "all we need to do is to receive Him by faith, because it seems, He (has fulfilled) the law. Yes He fulfilled the Old Testiment law but now we have to live the New Testiment law or covenant. Here most Christians say all we need is faith or believe on His name. As LDS we must repent, be baptised, obtain the Gift of the Holy Spirit and the Priesthood by the laying on of hands, obey the 10 commandments, turn the other cheek, help our fellow humans, pay tithing, live a health law some what like the old law, ect. I am sure I have missed some things.

Anonymous said...

They were to kill the spotless lamb. The father went to the door, gathered his family together. He lays his hands on the lamb and cuts its throat and drains the blood into a basin. That is not what we think of as a basin, as a bowl. In those days the front door had a notch or place cut out that the father emptied the blood into at the foot of the door. Then he took a hyssop branch and dipped it into the blood at the foot of the door and applied it to the doorposts and the lentil. He took the blood from the foot of the door and placed it on the top and on the sides of the door. After this was completed, the mother would take the lamb. Because it had to be roasted whole, with all the organs in it, they couldn’t just remove and throw the organs away. But, if you know anything about cooking meat, you know that you don’t want to cook that stuff inside the meat. You don’t want to get the taste from the organs into the meat. So they would take the intestines out and wrapped them around the head of the lamb. They took a stick after the lamb had been gutted and ran it up vertically up through the cut in the abdomen out its mouth and take another stick and run it horizontally across the ribs and put it upon the fire and roast it. They didn’t break any of the bones. They were careful not to do so because it had to be a perfect lamb.
What we have here is a picture of the crucifixion. The intestines wrapped around the head of the lamb, the father taking the blood at the foot of the door and applying it to the top and two sides, which is where Jesus head and hands were. You have this lamb being roasted upon two sticks forming a cross. Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, who wore a crown of thorns was taken and put upon a cross. They pierced his hands and feet. They didn’t break any of His bones and He endured the fire of God’s wrath for sinners. After they had concluded roasting the lamb, they took it inside and they were to eat it in the evening

NM said...

A very thorough description there, Anonymous; some of which I never knew!

When I said, "all we have to do is believe on His name" isn't actually that easy. To believe on His name is, by far, the hardest thing anyone can do. =) Because to believe in Jesus means you have to deny our lives. Remember what Jesus said? To have life eternal, you must first what? LOSE IT! =D

And I agree: repentance plays a very significant part here. To repent simply means to turn from an old way to a new way. We can talk about repentance quite easily and we can pay lip-service to it, whist life seems to be running smoothly. Anonymous, I know you know this already but: to consider Jesus and turning to Him is the hardest thing when all of life seems to be against us! (I wrote about this subject of depression on my blog a few days ago)...

When we are at our weakest, the instinct is to help ourselves out of the mess that we have found ourselves in, but it is another thing to call to Him for help =)

Those priceless words, when we are at our weakest, "Jesus help me, I can't do this anymore. I have known of your fame and I want to know you. Please be my saviour" are expressed - we have effectively pronounced our belief in Him! =D

At the same time though Anonymous, when we do not turn to Him (repentance) even in our darkest times (when we instinctively rely upon our own strength) that we pay lip-service to what Jesus has done when He paid for sins in order that we might have life! =D

Again, 'to-believe-on-Him' is, by far, THE HARDEST thing anyone can do, because to do so means we deny ourselves, we lay down our pride and accept that we are guilty. No-one likes to admit that they are worthless - especially in those times when we need to feel worthy most. =) And the truth of it all is that we are worthless in of ourselves. Our only hope and our only strength and our only sense of identity is and has always been in Him =)

Anonymous said...

First I would like to thank you for your testimony, faith and life struggles that you have shared with us.
"Because to believe in Jesus means you have to deny our lives."

"To have life eternal, you must first what? "
Believe in Him, have faith in Him, repent and be baptised to be saved.

"We can talk about repentance quite easily and we can pay lip-service to it…"
Then be baptised to be saved. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; . . . And they went out, and preached that men should repent.[W]e must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance.
‘He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned'. [Mark 16:16]

Reading of the Scriptures
Coming to an understanding of their meaning
Believing with all one's heart
Baptism
Each is an essential element that cannot be overlooked. Philip did not simply ask the eunuch if he believed and then left it at that. He explained the words of Scripture that he was reading and then moved on and ‘...preached unto him Jesus...' What happened next is very interesting. The scripture tells us that it was the eunuch rather than Philip who said ‘See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?' Clearly he recognised that belief had to be followed by baptism
We learn that the people:
"that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.' [Acts 2:38]
Human nature is such that there is a degree of reluctance to accept what is put before us. However if we seek a place at the side of Christ when he returns to establish peace in this troubled world we have to put aside our personal preferences and simply do as the Scripture states, to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and all that he represents and then show the required humility and step into the waters of baptism. Having done so we will be embarking on the most rewarding journey of our lives, filled with both challenges and joys that shall, as God has promised, result in the most wonderful gift of all, everlasting life and a place in his glorious kingdom. We encourage you to open your pages of Scripture and, with an open mind, read it, accept and believe its teaching of hope and salvation, and then follow in the footsteps of those of whom we have read and step into the waters of baptism. Let us not lose sight of the fact that Jesus said clearly ‘He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned'. [Mark 16:16]

In summary, in order to be saved, we must:
Read the Bible and understand its vital message
Believe in the teachings of Christ and the hope of salvation offered through him
Enter the waters of baptism to wash away our sins and ‘die with Christ'
Commit ourselves wholeheartedly to leading a life in accordance with scriptural principles.
Are you saved according to these principles?

NM said...

Thank you for your AMAZING insight into Acts and with Philip the evangelist! That was great! And just to think, Philip did all of that, all because he listened to the Holy Spirit's nudges! =D Philip didn't actually know what God wanted him to do - he didn't get his next instructions until he'd accomplished the ones he was told to do before!

So, you asked, "Are you saved according to these principles? "

This is an excellent question. But before I answer I'd like to provide you with an illustration, just so you can somehow glimpse where it is that I am coming from. So, here goes:

A mother calls out to her husband and says, "Quickly! Please go upstairs! I think Jo might have unlocked the gate upstairs! Quick!"

So, dad goes hurries up the stairs and gets there in a flash to find that their two-year-old son had in fact unlocked the stair gate and in doing so was in real danger of falling down the stairs!

Anonymous, I don't know if you have children - but even if you do not, I invite you to empathize with me here so that you might know the urgency of the situation! Their son was about to fall down the stairs, which potentially could have had suffered severe injuries!

So dad comes back down the stairs to mum. With a slightly confused frown she asks, "Err, so where's Jo?". To which dad replies, "Well I asked him if he wanted to come down and Jo said no, then I asked him if I could close the gate and he also said no. So, you know, I wanted to respect his wishes, because it's all about listening to our children and I wanted to make sure that he knew that his needs are of utmost importance."....

Oh boy. =(

Dad, although what he said was an amazing truism, within the context of everything, it was an incorrect way of acting relative to the urgency of the situation!

Anonymous, do you see where I am going with this? Please say yes?

Anonymous, the principles which you live by are laudable. And I greatly admire you for everything that you do to follow Jesus! =D I truly do...

So, what's all the fuss about? Well, I guess the fuss is about Paul's rhetoric questions (mostly found in Romans, Galatians etc.) So, here is an example of what Paul says in a letter, which he sent to the church in Ephesians 2:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Anonymous, what do we do with verses like these?

If like you say, we cannot just be saved by believing alone, then what do you do with Ephesians 2? It can't just be ignored, can it? To be a christian, it means entering into a living relationship with Jesus! Like he said to Nichodemus (who was very, VERY religious - one who kept ALL of the Law - he lived to keep every letter of it), "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN" Notice, Nichodemus just didn't know what Jesus was talking about and Jesus was even more astounded by the fact that Nichodemus didn't know what Jesus said to him!

Anonymous, if you think that by acheiving all the things which you have kindly listed for me - is the way to gain salvation, then you have MISSED THE MARK. Please know that I don't say this lightly and glibly. I pray that you might know Jesus intimately. Please know that when I say things like, "All we need to do to have salvation is simply to believe...", it means that my life is wholly in Him, for Him and to the glory of His grace! =D Knowing Jesus has been the most life-changing thing I have ever experienced! =D And I can't help but share His amazing grace!

So, although your summary is a good summary. Make sure you do not miss the mark. Your list is a fantastic list, they are excellent principles! But just make sure that the context of such principles fit the correct situation. Otherwise, we end up like the dad who might have had the right answers - but didn't apply it to the appropriate environment =) Keep reading the Bible =) Keep doing good things; it is a good thing to do good works =) But when life becomes difficult and Satan tempts you to give up or reminds you that you are a failure, look to Him for help and accept Him as your saviour =)

Anonymous said...

So, what's all the fuss about? 
 
All the fuss is: as a former saved, by faith ,saved by grace, and saved by belief in Christ Christian, I was forced to exclude many of the commandments found in the New (Testiment) Covenant. This came about by my questioning  my pastors about the scriptures: "are they the word of G-d and if so why are there so many of the important doctrines exclude that are found in the scriptures? The pastors too would use your scripture found below. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." My reply was “why does this scripture carry any more weight than any other scripture?” Like  "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."  (No longer was it the baptism of the Old Covenant but now it was in the name of Jesus Christ.) The only conclusion was they are not of different weight, but belief and grace are just the first steps to completing the rest of Christs commandments and gaining all of Christ's Gifts of Grace. If the commandments are no longer needed then why would  the apostles waste the time to state that they are? Therefore you are not saved by works but the commandments are required by all followers of Christ and it is necessary to keep all of them to the best of their abilities.
 
In the following scripture Christ gives an example of those that knew of Him, believed in Him, had faith in Him, called upon His name to do wonderful works yet were rejected because they do not do the will of the Father, ie keep the commandments and be baptized with the proper priesthood authority.
 
 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father …

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  Matt. 7:21-23
 
According to Jesus, calling on his name is not enough to get you into heaven.
 
*"Anonymous, what do we do with verses like these? If like you say, we cannot just be saved by believing alone, then what do you do with Ephesians 2? It can't just be ignored, can it?
 
You must not ignore any scriptures but must give equal weight to all as the restoration through Joseph Smith declared to the world.

* "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN"
 
It is assumed among some that water baptism is essentially an unnecessary religious ritual and that a profession of having been baptized by the Holy Spirit is sufficient enough. Nevertheless, do we not find in the "great commission" Christ's commandment not only to teach and make disciples of all nations, but also to baptize ALL nations? (Matt 28:19).
 
*"Anonymous, if you think that by acheiving all the things which you have kindly listed for me - is the way to gain salvation, then you have MISSED THE MARK."

Rather it is necessary to try to hit all the marks of saved by grace and baptism and all other commandments that G-d commands.
 
*"So, although your summary is a good summary. Make sure you do not miss the mark. Your list is a fantastic list, they are excellent principles! But just make sure that the context of such principles fit the correct situation. "
 
The correct situation is that this list are commandments in the scriptures and those that by pass them by pass Christs own words, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me."
 
As for Nicodemus:
 
The third chapter of John shows Jesus to be in serious dialogue with a man who had already been physically born many years before. Jesus is stating the conditions necessary for entrance into the kingdom of God. Can it be thought reasonable to suppose that Jesus would really make physical birth a condition for entrance into the kingdom of God? In accordance with such an interpretation, could not physical birth be considered also as a condition for going to hell and everlasting perdition? Does not such a thought and interpretation come close to being ridiculous, if not altogether absurd? The scripture shows that the Apostle John had no thought of physical birth in this passage.
 
Against it is John's own declaration in 1:13 that birth from God has nothing to do with human birth. More importantly, in 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that "no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" (or "born from above," as the Greek phrase may best be translated). After Nicodemus' expression of incredulity, Jesus explains the meaning of this by using the phrase "born of water and the Spirit" in verse 5. Thus "born from above" (or "born again") is the equivalent of "born of water and the Spirit." The expression in verse 5 defines that of verse 3. The whole expression "of water and the Spirit" defines the manner in which one is born from above.
It is clear that Jesus was enforcing His conditions for entering into the kingdom of heaven upon a man who, as we formally noted, was physically born many years before. Nicodemus is being told of conditions he has not yet met, but must meet if he is to enter into the kingdom of God - conditions that all who are already physically born must meet. Nicodemus, along with us all must be born again. Jesus is, of course, speaking of a spiritual new birth, typified by water baptism.
In "A Treatise on Baptism," John Wesley defined this rite as "the initiatory sacrament of baptism, which enters us into covenant with God. It was instituted by Christ, who alone has power to institute a proper sacrament, a sign, seal, pledge, and means of grace, perpetually obligatory on all Christians."

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

You are placing too much emphasis on the ordinance and losing the very meaning of it's Spiritual importance and application.

Again, this is what Paul warns against when he talks of salvation through grace and works. He does not want the physical ritual of Christianity to over-ride the actions that grace imparts naturally onto our fellow man through 'Agape Love' and 'Faith'. This is the mistake that the Pharisees and Saducees were making in their understanding of 'the law', and why Jesus as 'The embodiment of The Law' was able to turn their perception and rigidity upside down, and the reason why they finally killed Him.

The actions of 'Agape Love' are the actions that the Holy Spirit working through us that can be defined as the fruits (for the benefit of others who can also come to Jesus as a direct result of these words or actions). The very talents that we receive to enable us to do these actions are the gifts of the Spirit.

You are totally correct that one must be baptised and be born of the Spirit, but I state again - Baptism alone (after repentance) is not going to save. This is only known as justification ( or the public demonstration of one's desire to turn around one's life).

We must then walk the daily road of sanctification in Jesus, and this is the road that finally will save.

To get caught up in commandment keeping makes one become legalistic, self-concentrated, of diminishing esteem, depressed and eventually lost. we can do nothing of our own accord to contribute towards our salvation other than understanding our Spiritual frailty, emptying our hearts and asking Jesus to fill the void and direct us where he wants us to go and do what He wants us to do. The road to redemption does naturally start with personal sincere repentance and baptism. But ONLY for ourselves....

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

Anon,

The commandments that you mention from the NT are always references to the original 10 Commandments and are not any new commandments.

Are you aware that the two 'new Commandments' spoken by Jesus are simply a summary of the first four and the last six of the 10 Commandments ?

There is nothing new there or anywhere else in the NT! Other commandments such as baptism, last supper etc, I think you are mixing up with 'ordinances'.

Hand-em

Anonymous said...

"There is nothing new there or anywhere else in the NT! Other commandments such as baptism, last supper etc, I think you are mixing up with 'ordinances'."

I think someone needs to go back and study the Jewish religion as compared to Christian religion. The very name New Testiment speaks for its self.

Anonymous said...

"You are totally correct that one must be baptised..."

ALl are saved by grace but all will not see the Kingdom of G-d unless they are baptised. They will not be saved in Heaven.

I am saved by the initiatory scrament of baptism which is a New Testiment commandment per Christ and His apostles.


"the initiatory sacrament of baptism, which enters us into covenant with God. It was instituted by Christ, who alone has power to institute a proper sacrament, a sign, seal, pledge, and means of grace, perpetually obligatory on all Christians."

Therefor, go be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ by the true presthood restored through Joseph Smith as the scriptures declare. And all that do not will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

Anonymous said...

"You are placing too much emphasis on the ordinance and losing the very meaning of it's Spiritual importance and application."

Not I but Christ and His apostles.

"we can do nothing of our own accord to contribute towards our salvation."

We can repent, be baptised, obtain the Holy Ghost and keep the commandments.

"Again, this is what Paul warns against when he talks of salvation through grace and works."

This is why he said that baptism was a requirement.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

The OT and the NT is separated only by the birth of Jesus, understood by Christians to be the expected Messiah. This is why the Jewish nation does not accept the NT. BUT the Bible is unified in it's message as a whole set of books. Do not see one testament contradict or replace the other. It is not like this! Jesus came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill it. Think about this - it is highly important!

Jesus, His disciples and the apostles all discussed baptism in the way that I indicated previously.

When you mention that one can only be saved through baptism, you are taking the meaning totally out of context.

You indicate that the water of immersion has some kind of magical power that automatically enables one to be translated at some point in the future. This is fallicy.

Just look at what is more important in the baptismal process.

It represents the public demonstration. yes - but what does it represent. It represents repentance (getting into the water - action), it represents death to the 'old self' (going down under the water prostrated to simulate the grave) and then it represents the start of 'new birth / life in Jesus (coming up out of the water simulating the acceptance of a future resurrection / translation).

One can only be saved IF one continues to grow in Jesus and walk the path of sanctification after they have been justified.

You know enough of the NT, so please look for all the indications for justification and sanctification that you can find. They all follow the baptismal process and are also equally as important for one's salvation. All demonstrative in ultimate love!

Understand and accept this and you can hit the jackpot.

I have been baptised, but if I do not continue to walk with and in Jesus, how can I expect Him to save me ?

Please take my comments in context in the full measure of their meaning and structure. Please do not take one sentence out of context and then criticise.

Finally, I would like to know. If, at the time of the end, a person comes to hear the Gospel and accept Jesus, and then Jesus comes in all His Glory in the Second Coming - will that person be saved if they have not had the time to be baptised (using your theology)?

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

"Jesus, His disciples and the apostles all discussed baptism in the way that I indicated previously."

"When you mention that one can only be saved through baptism, you are taking the meaning totally out of context."

You need to take this up with John Wesley and the Catholic Church as well as others that state that it is required.


"A Treatise on Baptism," John Wesley

Anonymous said...

"One can only be saved IF one continues to grow in Jesus and walk the path of sanctification after they have been justified."

No true, as I have been told by those that are saved by Grace.

Anonymous said...

"Finally, I would like to know. If, at the time of the end, a person comes to hear the Gospel and accept Jesus, and then Jesus comes in all His Glory in the Second Coming - will that person be saved if they have not had the time to be baptised (using your theology)?"

Because baptism is required all people will have the chance to be baptised. Thus baptism for the dead. This is my whole point. Baptism is not optional but required and if it is as the LDS believe then it is necessary for all to obtain and then except if it is done in their behalf.

Anonymous said...

"This is why the Jewish nation does not accept the NT."

I understand that the Jewish religion does not believe the New Testiment but the Christian religion does no longer follow all the commandments of the Old Testiment. All of this was in reference to the statement below. Plus there were more than just 10 commandments.

"The commandments that you mention from the NT are always references to the original 10 Commandments" and are not any new commandments."

Teranno4x4 said...

Anon,

"Finally, I would like to know. If, at the time of the end, a person comes to hear the Gospel and accept Jesus, and then Jesus comes in all His Glory in the Second Coming - will that person be saved if they have not had the time to be baptised (using your theology)?"

Because baptism is required all people will have the chance to be baptised. Thus baptism for the dead. This is my whole point. Baptism is not optional but required and if it is as the LDS believe then it is necessary for all to obtain and then except if it is done in their behalf.

- I am not talking about anyone who has died here ! I am asking the question relating to someone still alive. There are 6 billion and some people on this planet at different stages of a relationship with God. My question relates to someone who hears about Jesus for the first time, right before his return in His Glory! Not as baptism for the dead....

Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

Hi Anon,

To continue this discussion or conversation then, I ask you kindly to understand the difference between the Eternal Law / Royal Law / Decalogue or more commonly referred to 10 Commandment Law and the Old covenant law / ceremonial law or commonly referred to Mosaic law.

Then maybe the penny will drop for you.

They are NOT one and the same and can NOT be interchanged for convenience!

This is why I speak of Commandments and ordinances, because this is the NT continuation describing the NT 'new' covenant through Jesus, as replacing the OT 'old' covenant as made with the prophets and patriarchs of old.

Concentrated continuance of the same themes embodied in Jesus Christ, not replacement.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

"My question relates to someone who hears about Jesus for the first time, right before his return in His Glory!"

Sorry. I am not sure about this case you refer to but as far as the scriptures ti commands all must obtain baptism and all will have the chance to hear about the Good News of Jesus Christ and obtain all the ordiences necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If they are here when He comes to earth they He will instruct them to be baptised. I guess. He could change any ordiences any time He likes but it is my best understanding that all will needed it. I know some say those that believe will be lifted up when comes and in what state they will be in I do not know. I am not sure what Mormons think about His coming in glory other than those that are not ready it will be a very bad day but those that are ready it will be a good day.

Teranno4x4 said...

Anon,

So your comment on baptism, Wesley and the catholic church, does this make you a Wesleyan-catholic-Mormon ?

Personally I believe in the teachings of God as ministered through His Word and baptism is just one of many ordinances that taken alone in the context that you define - does not save. read Pauls comments on the matter.

Taken out of context - grace alone also does not save.

The issue comes down to personal acceptance of that grace and the wheels that are set in motion because of the 'new found' belief and willingness to make the necessary changes and steps in one's life.

'Once saved - always saved' is a doctrine taught on the merits of 'grace', but this too is a false doctrine. This is why infant baptism is not the right way and why it must be a personal decision and commitment, ad not performed by proxy either!

Christianity is a completeness, not an instruction booklet to rigidly follow. It can not be packaged as such because of the total freedom that it at the very heart.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

'To continue this discussion or conversation then, I ask you kindly to understand the difference between the Eternal Law / Royal Law / Decalogue or more commonly referred to 10 Commandment Law and the Old covenant law / ceremonial law or commonly referred to Mosaic law.'

Teranno4x4 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Teranno4x4 said...

Last comment - read your Bible for the topic of 'sanctification' (5 occurances in the Bible) or 'sanctified' (62 occurances in the Bible).

Note who does the sanctification and when ?

It is Biblical - and TRUE !

Anonymous said...

'To continue this discussion or conversation then, I ask you kindly to understand the difference between the Eternal Law / Royal Law / Decalogue or more commonly referred to 10 Commandment Law and the Old covenant law / ceremonial law or commonly referred to Mosaic law.'


I am not sure about the differences in all of these. You might be able to explain and I will read up on them but the one that comes to mind is the not eating of pork. To the Jew this is a law of G-d, I think to some Christians this was not a part of the 10 commandments and not of G-d. Paul (Saul) made it an important with his vision. To only a Jew can say for sure what they believe and should follow, but Christians no longer follow many of the Jewish laws or have replaced other laws or concepts in there place.

Anonymous said...

You are here: Following Jesus >> Sanctification

Sanctification - Biblical Meaning
Sanctification is a biblical doctrine that is emphasized a great deal in Christian teaching. Yet despite its importance, it is often perceived as a religious notion too complex to comprehend. Though sanctification may at first seem to be a foreign concept, it is one of the greatest things that has and is happening to every believer in Jesus Christ. Here we will explore the basic biblical doctrine of sanctification and discuss the key role it plays in a Christian's spiritual growth.

Sanctification comes from the verb sanctify. Sanctify originates from the Greek word hagiazo, which means to be "separate" or to be "set apart." In the Bible, sanctification generally relates to a sovereign act of God whereby He "sets apart" a person, place, or thing in order that His purposes may be accomplished. In the book of Exodus, God sanctifies a place of worship. "And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory," says Exodus 29:43. Even a day can be sanctified as seen in Genesis 2:3 where the seventh day is "set apart" as a holy day of rest. "Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."

Similarly, when a person is sanctified he or she is being set apart by God for a specific divine purpose. The very moment we are saved in Christ we are also immediately sanctified and begin the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. As God's children we are "set apart" from that moment to carry out His divine purposes unto eternity. Hebrews 10:14 says, "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." Are you set apart for God?

Sanctification - Different Than Salvation
It is important to differentiate between justification and sanctification. Justification is another word for salvation. Jesus gave his life on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. His blood washes away our sins and frees us from an eternity of suffering and condemnation. Believers are saved because of what Christ has already done. We can do nothing to earn salvation, it is the gift given to every child of God regardless of race, age, maturity, or merit. Sanctification occurs as a result of salvation. At the moment of conversion, the Holy Spirit enters our life. We are no longer held hostage by death, but are free to live the life God desires for us. We are thus sanctified simply because of our standing as lost souls saved by grace.

Teranno4x4 said...

Anon,

Wrong, I am a Christian and I also follow many of the Jewish laws for reasons of good health and common sense. The diet and avoidance of pork omongst other foods in particular is one aspect only which I observe. I also drink no stong drink, wine or liqour. One can not generalise Christianity into all believing one doctrine. You see, I am Bible based, not tradition based.

When the law was nailed to the cross, it was (in it's original language and context) the ceremonial laws or the levitical laws whichever term you prefer. It was not the 10 Commandment Law that is the Eternal and Royal Law.

This is why Jesus came to fulfill the Law, because He WAS the Law. Every one of the 10 Commandments was part of His make-up and human character, so much so that not one of them was broken in any kind of sin. Because he was also born a Jew, He also kept the ceremonial law too and was not guilty under that either. That is why the Sabbath Day still stands as it did when God rested on the seventh day of Creation (Hebrew used for rest - shabat).

That is why there are now ordinances to compliment the Christian walk with God after the new covenant has been established by Jesus as a concentration of the old established with the prophets and patriarchs, not replacing them.

Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

"Similarly, when a person is sanctified he or she is being set apart by God for a specific divine purpose. The very moment we are saved in Christ we are also immediately sanctified and begin the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

Sanctification - Different Than Salvation
It is important to differentiate between justification and sanctification. Justification is another word for salvation."


Wrong, wrong, wrong ..... I don't know where you researched this but this is completely wrong and does not denote the accurate Biblical definitions of justification, sanctification and salvation.

Read the Bible - it gives the true meanings. I can tell you, but you need to find out for yourself the truth. Not another man's incorrect interpretation...(as above).

Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

Anon,

"If they are here when He comes to earth they He will instruct them to be baptised. I guess."

You see - you are not the judge, so you can only guess. I agree that baptism is an important ordinance, but we are not the ones who make the final choice for salvation or not. That IS the perogative only of Jesus as our judge and heavenly advocate. We must trust in him to make His righteous decisions.

Guessing and rigidity do not help. Repentance, baptism, justification, sanctification lead to salvation collectively in a complete process he by-product is that fruits of the Spirit are manifest in 'Agape love'. You see one term can not define the other ....

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

I did not know this was about you, I was just talking in general terms about what the scriptures say. I would not be able to say anything about what you believe because I do not know your religion.

Anonymous said...

"Wrong, I am a Christian and I also follow many of the Jewish laws for reasons of good health and common sense."

You might but most of the Christian religion no longer follow most of the Old Testiment law.

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