Discussions of Mormons and Mormon life, Book of Mormon issues and evidences, and other Latter-day Saint (LDS) topics.

Sunday, December 16, 2007

Tis the Season . . . for Pagans

As if Christmas these days weren't already pagan enough in its symbols and materialism, city officials in Green Bay, Wisconsin (just a few minutes north of my town of Appleton) have added a Wiccan display at City Hall.

Christmas has become so pagan already. What a shame. But now does it have to be everything to everybody to avoid offense? I understand Green Bay will also be flying the flags of Venezuela, China, Iran, and Zimbabwe over City Hall just to keep their bases covered. Wouldn't want to leave anybody out!

On another topic, this season is becoming a great time for Satanists, too, given recent political developments. Satanists may have thought they had a good choice or two among the candidates for President, but now a prominent minister in Florida (and ex-con) has informed Americans that they can actually vote for Satan himself in the coming primaries. Satanists must be rejoicing this holiday season now that they know that "A Vote for Romney Is a Vote for Satan Himself." (How wrong I was to trust Ben Bernanke on this issue - I thought Satan was Ron Paul!) Hey, what if Satan wins? I think progressive cities should prepare now and begin putting up displays of the fires of hell around city hall.

43 comments:

NM said...

Come on Mr. Bill Keller; stop beating around the bush and tell us what you really think of these crazy Mormons...

SteSmo said...

Did anyone say 'Christian love'? Can I get a John 13:34-35?

Steve Smoot

Nick Literski said...

So Jeff, you object to a Wiccan holiday display in the public square? Does this mean you respect the Constitution enough to likewise object to any other religious displays on government property? Or are you just another of those right-wing types, who want THEIR religion promoted by the government, but not the rest?

Ender's Girl said...

Wow, I've been reading your blog for a few months now and I must say that I've really liked it so far, it seems intelligent and well thought out even if I don't always agree with you. However I'm a bit concerned over your comments on Wiccans/Pagans. While not directly offensive (and I thank you for that) it was implied that there is something wrong with them and with their traditions.

First of all, I'm sure you know that when the Christians attempted to convert the pagans in Europe to Christianity they used the already exisiting pagan celebration of Yule and added Jesus to it. So yes, Christmas is very very very pagan. But of course so is Mormonism. I'm sure you've heard of Dr. Quinn's work also the concept of Heavenly Mother makes Mormonism the most pagan of all Christian religions, the only one with an aknowledged Divine Feminine (a concept most often found in Paganism).

Besides there really isn't much difference between Pagans/Wiccans and Christians when you get down to it. The traditions, the stories, the concepts of love and peace.

And by the way, there is a growing trend of people reclaiming a lot of the ritual magick and Goddess concepts in original Mormonism. Mormon-Pagans. I happen to be one of them and I just finished my Master's degree thesis on it.

Also it's really not the greatest idea, in my opinion, to blog about satan and wiccans in the same post. It could offend some people because it implies a connection, and all educated, rational people know there is no connection between Satan and Wicca.

Peace and Love

Mormanity said...

Right, Nick - we need an angel Moroni on every public building, or I'm not paying extra taxes this year. Thanks for the friendly assertion about my status as a nut. Cracked, roasted, and lightly salted - but never smoked.

Can't we just acknowledge that we have some religiously rooted national traditions and have a (pagan) Christmas tree for Christmas and leave it at that? If we try to be so PC that we include representations for every culture, religion, and nationality, we'll need acres of displays around our city halls. And that's means more taxation in the end and fewer parking spaces during shopping season. Bad idea.

I hope no one is confused by my dumping a couple of topics in the same post. While I did mention of Wiccans, Satanists, and politicians, everyone should understand that not all politicians are Satanists and visa versa. My apologies to the Satanists.

Seriously, Wiccans are typically not Satanists - in fact, as I understand, Wiccans do not even believe Satan exists. The ones I have known have seemed pretty kind, though I hope they will one day turn to Christ.

NM said...

Hi Jeff,

You said, "...though I hope they will one day turn to Christ."

Can I ask what is meant by this? Are LDS theology and Evangelical theology similar in terms of God's act of forgiveness, in that only those who call upon His name are the ones who are saved? I ask because I was always under the impression that LDS theology states that ALL people will receive glory, whether or not they follow Christ. Is that true? Or is it another myth and misunderstanding that needs correction?

If it is not a myth and it is true that LDS theology teach that all people will receive glory whether or not they turn to Christ, then what did you mean when you said, "...though I hope they will one day turn to Christ."?

If you have already written about this topic, I'll gladly follow a hyper-link for me to read up on...

Thanks for your help with this one.

SteSmo said...

BTW,

My earlier comments were directed towards Mr. Keller, not Jeff. I just wanted to make sure that people did not take my comments out of context.

Steve Smoot

Ayla said...

NM, you said, "I was always under the impression that LDS theology states that ALL people will receive glory, whether or not they follow Christ."

I was under that impression too. I would love clarification if I've been misslead or perhaps there is conflicting doctorine on this one?

Also, what about Article 11?

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

Peace and Love

Nick Literski said...

Jeff, I didn't assert that you were a nut, though I did gently ask if you were. Your answer, which apparently suggests that modern christian traditions be observed on government property, to the exclusion of others (using an excuse of limited space--PLEASE) is quite enough to assert your level of reasonableness and support of the Constitution.

Bookslinger said...

After all, there are no Christmas trees (or Santa or Easter Bunny or colored eggs) in the Bible anyway.

Mormanity said...

Nick, Christmas trees are used all over the world during this holiday season, even in China (see Christmas in China) and many other nations that have no Christian tradition or overtly oppose it. To put up a Christmas tree on public land should not require equal space to every other religion since, as I stated, it's really more of a pagan/seasonal symbol than a true religious symbol. Why can't we accept such a pagan vestige of our religiously-rooted traditions and leave it at that? Thanksgiving holiday is another example: it's a holiday rooted in the religious tradition of giving thanks to God, but the public symbols of turkeys, Pilgrims, etc. in parades, schools, and public buildings are not overtly religious. We can recognize that the holiday stems from a religious tradition, but need not get in a PC frenzy over it.

Do you think that Wiccans, Muslims, Zorastrians, animists, etc. should expect to have their alternative symbols displayed in addition to the traditional symbols for these holidays? The Constitutional right for individuals to have freedom of religion is not infringed by a Christmas tree display, any more than it is infringed by "In God we trust" on our currency or in the practice of taking the oath of office with a Bible at hand.

Joseph Antley said...

I wouldn't mind a Wiccan display for a Wiccan holiday, but last I checked, Christmas wasn't one.

And don't think twice about it -- Ron Paul IS Satan.

Nick Literski said...

Do you think that Wiccans, Muslims, Zorastrians, animists, etc. should expect to have their alternative symbols displayed in addition to the traditional symbols for these holidays?

Absolutely not, and neither should christians. Of course, your bias is betrayed when you identify the symbols of non-christian faiths as "alternative."

You're welcome to be bigotted, of course. It's just slightly better if you're at least honest about it.

I wouldn't mind a Wiccan display for a Wiccan holiday, but last I checked, Christmas wasn't one.

Winter Solstice is, however. This attempt at a slap is really no more useful than saying a menorah shouldn't be displayed, because the Jews don't celebrate Christmas.

Mormanity said...

Nick, I've obviously offended you at a level that does far beyond differences about whether a green tree is a Constitutionally acceptable symbol or not. "Right wing nut - bigot - dishonest." I think I've stepped on more than just a toe or two and would like to understand whatever is irking you, and may even be willing to improve. Some correspondence with you in the distant past seemed much more cordial. Sorry if something has changed due to offense on my end. If you'd like to discuss things offline, please send me a note (if you're actually Nick - hard to know with these Google blogs).

Meanwhile, I don't have any passionate need to see Christmas trees at city hall or anywhere else.

Mormanity said...

The email is jeff at jefflindsay dot c0m.

Your bias is betrayed when you identify the symbols of non-christian faiths as "alternative."

You're welcome to be bigotted, of course.


I'm probably misunderstanding something here, but let me try to explain. In referring to the symbols of other religions that differ from the traditional symbols used for the nationally recognized holidays at this time of year, I'm not sure what politically correct word would be more fair and accurate than "alternative." It wasn't meant as a bigoted put-down of other faiths. I think even my most faithful Muslim friends would consider a star and crescent as an "alternative" symbol to those ingrained in US culture for the winter holidays/Christmas season. But I sense that I'm missing your point. Sorry about that.

Fingers said...

NM and Ayla,

While, yes, all who have been born to this earth will eventually receive a level of glory, those who follow Christ get an awful lot more glory, and are the only ones who return to God's presence. Christ's sacrifice is the only thing that makes that possible.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear All,

Sorry, but once again on this post about pagan rituals being accepted into a Christian climate or country, I agree with Jeff's point. I also believe that it is one step away from more serious openly accepted satanic practices. It is simply a ruse or a disguise for more accepted sinister activity. Common sense and a respect / love only for God (that you trust) and neighbor MUST prevail. Or maybe the government was naming mammon on the dollar bills?

On the topic of Christmas trees and pagan / 'heathen' ritual :

Jeremiah 10:1-4

1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Christians are known to be the modern-day adopted 'nation of Israel' or 'people of God'. We would do well to hear the word of the Lord and hearken what pleases and displeases him!

Personally over the last two years, whilst I rejoice that some come to know Jesus more intimately around the time of 'Christ mass' (a name that gives another indication of origin), I have made the decision to avoid the thrills and spills that this holiday season brings. I have stepped off the conveyor belt of tradition, materialism and commercialism in order to honour and reverence the true God of Heaven, daily.

To those that may offer a scathing answer, I will offer my reply of 'Humbug!' in advance, for a more beneficial and Holy retort than the one originally meant by Dickens!

Teranno4x4

Nick Literski said...

Actually, Jeff, I have no problem with lighted and decorated trees on government property, in and of themselves. They are beautiful, and as you note, fairly non-specific. In the story you link, however, there was already a nativity scene on site at the city hall in question.

I don't think it's appropriate to place a nativity scene on government property, but if it must happen, then officials simply must be equally accomodating to the displays of other faiths, as this mayor was.

I appreciate your clarification regarding your use of "alternative." Simple as it sounds, Jeff, I think "other" is preferable here. In today's society, many use "alternative" as a synonym for weird, rebellious, abnormal, or just plain "wrong." Also, by definition, "alternative" represents a choice where one option excludes the other--something that needn't be the case in the situation at hand.

marcus said...

As I read the comment, I thought "alternative" was meant only to describe the symbols, not the religions. As in the Christmas tree is an alternative symbol of Christmas that's different from the nativity scene which is a more traditional/religious symbol.

Ayla said...

Fingers,

Can you cite me some of the scripture that backs up what you're saying about the followers of Christ receiving more glory.

Thanks :)

Terrano,

You said "I also believe that it is one step away from more serious openly accepted satanic practices. It is simply a ruse or a disguise for more accepted sinister activity."

Are you saying that accepting pagans/Wiccans is one step toward openly practiced Satanism? If so, I must say that that is a terribly offensive position as Wicca and Paganism have nothing to do with Satan, they pre-date the concept of him and just because something isn't Christian doesn't make it Satanic. I hope I missunderstood you.

And while we're all talking about satanism I found this over at religoustolerance.org

David Shankbone interviewed Peter Gilmore, the Church of Satan's high priest. Shankbone wrote an excellent synopsis of Church beliefs and practices:

"LaVey's teachings are based on individualism, self-indulgence, and 'eye for an eye' morality, with influence from Friedrich Nietzsche and Ayn Rand; while its rituals and magic draw heavily from occultists such as Aleister Crowley. They do not worship—nor believe in—the Devil or a Christian notion of Satan. The word 'Satan' comes from the Hebrew word for "adversary" and originated from the Abrahamic faiths, being traditionally applied to an angel. Church of Satan adherents see themselves as truth-seekers, adversaries and skeptics of the religious world around them."

"Church of Satan" sounds really scarey but I think it's bark is loader thaan it's bite so to speak.

Peace :)

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Ayla,

As a Bible believing Christian, I accept your 'peace' message, however yes what you probably read was not misguided or mis-understood. I did state those things.

The resons why ? The very name satan can mean 'adversary' as you rightly stated, but more accurately it is translated as 'accuser'. This brings new meaning to the nature of his very character too if you understand what he is about.

Do satanists, wiccans, pagans, occultists, witches, wizards, diviners, practicers of the magic arts, atheists or even members of secret societies acknowledge the God of Heaven in all His Glory and behold Jesus His very Son as their redeeming Saviour ?

Your answer should be no - of course not. Therefore in the same way that the Bible gives much caution and counsel on the search of such apostacy against the will of God's love for our lives, I too must also be against such propaganda in my own right to freely believe and have the possibility to speak without any risk of persecution.

However one wishes to paint a non-offensive view about 'alternative' belief systems - when they are evil, they are EVIL. Against God and His divine ways leads ONLY to evil ways and destruction in the end. There are no other 'get out of jail free cards'. This is the deception and the accusation that satan is using in his armaments against humanity. Self-belief in indestructability, the ability to go on against God for all eternity (in whatever form is believed) and to believe that satan's accusations against God have credibility. Don't be deceived, satan as an evil angel was around way before this earth was even created, so the impression that his concept was dreamt up by man is also a failing.

Don't believe me - take the Bible account of Moses versus the magicians of the original pagan sun-god in pharoah's court in Egypt. Look at what happened to the rod of Moses when faced with adversity? Can satan really beat God ? The answer to this puzzle lies with the outcome, even though God was outnumbered with multiples to one! Don't believe the media / hollywood hype! the golden compass their next multi-million blockbuster trilogy aimed at our kids is demonic in it's message to the very core! Avoid it at all cost.

May the love of God be with you at this time,

Teranno4x4

James said...

Ayla,

Doctrine and Covenants 76. The whole section describes the degrees of glory, the operative verses for your exact question would be 50-53.

Fingers said...

That was me above...

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Ender's Girl,

You may have just finished your Master's degree thesis on Mormon-pagans with many of the concepts of magick and the Goddess etc. etc.

Are you aware that it was a topic discussed in the Bible ? Are you aware that the people of God were chastised for accepting such a belief ? Are you aware that when it was readily accepted and relied upon for their daily living, that was when God turned His face from them and allowed them to be carried off into captivity in Babylon ?

This is a mirror image of the concept today. Jesus is coming soon. Accept this concept and God (Jesus) will turn His back ("depart, I never knew you") when He comes again the second time. Those not accepted into His kingdom will enter the spiritual Babylon under the control and denstiny prepared for sin, satan and all his followers.

You can find the passage talking about the queen of heaven in Jeremiah 7:17-20 and Jermeiah 44.

So you can accept Dr. Quinn's work and you can be content in your finished thesis, but the whole doctrine of a female deity is nothing more than a sham, a false teaching that is diguised and nothing more than idolatry.

The queen of heaven: This goddess is usually identified with the Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar. Inasmuch as there were immoral ceremonies connected with this worship, it aroused Jeremiah’s hot indignation, particularly since it appears to have been a prominent part of the idolatry then practiced. The Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar, the mother goddess, was the equivalent of the divinity known to the Hebrews as Ashtoreth and to the Canaanites as Astarte, whose figurines are found in Palestine. This goddess of fertility, of maternity, of sexual love, and of war was worshiped in rites of a grossly immoral and debasing character. She was essentially the same goddess though worshipped under many names and in many aspects, such as the earth-mother, the virgin-mother, and is identified in a general sense with Atargatis, the “Great Mother” of Asia Minor, Artemis (Diana) of Ephesus, Venus, and others. Various names applied to the virgin-mother goddess contain an element meaning “lady,” or “mistress,” as Nana, Innini, Irnini, Beltis. Some of the designations were Belti, “my lady” (the exact equivalent of the Italian Madonna), Belit-ni, “our lady,” and “queen of heaven,” the name under which Ishtar was worshiped on the housetops as morning or evening star, with an offering of baked cakes, wine, and incense. Ishtar was also known as the merciful mother who intercedes with the gods for her worshipers. Some of these names and attributes are today applied to the virgin Mary, and many of the localized virgin cults in the Old World are believed to be the modern survivals of the worship of some of these various aspects of the ancient mother goddess.

I know that this is going to be contentious for you, but the words from the Bible over-ride those of Dr. Quinn and those in your thesis, because they are words of Truth! Treat these concepts lightly and you position yourself on very dangerous ground in your stance before almighty God!

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

"the whole doctrine of a female deity is nothing more than a sham,"

Sounds to me that someone has a problem with women being in heaven.

Anonymous said...

"Besides there really isn't much difference between Pagans/Wiccans and Christians when you get down to it. The traditions, the stories, the concepts of love and peace."

If you study it all as myth as Joseph Cambell.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

Once again - you are taking one comment (even this time out of a sentence as a whole comment) and taking it completely out of context, ignoring the Biblical evidence that is offered further above.

Did I state that I have a problem with women in heaven ? Absolutely not. But I have stated that the human idea of a female deity is nothing more than disguised idolatry and is blasphemous in the extreme.

For example - analyse it further. Jesus was born by the influence of the 'immaculate conception' for want of a better term. He was born of Mary, a virgin that some religions now deify and claim of being of immaculate conception herself.

Now - the obvious question comes, what about her mother ? Was she too born of immaculate conception to in order to give birth to deity - you see where the problem of this type of theology is not well thought out ? Follow other disguised religio-concepts and similar failings can easily be seen. This way is not God's way!

Women will be in heaven and deservedly so, but I know for sure there are none currently there - deity or not!

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

"but I know for sure there are none currently there - deity or not!"

You can't know this for sure unless you have been there. There maybe no scriptures about female deity but if G-d choose one to be such, as in the Christ concept He not being G-d but becoming a G-d, then Heavenly Father can exalt anyone he chooses to be a exalted g-d.

Anonymous said...

NM, after Jeff said:
said, "...though I hope they will one day turn to Christ.

I think this is just a general statement that we hope all people will turn to Christ.

* "Are LDS theology and Evangelical theology similar in terms of God's act of forgiveness, in that only those who call upon His name are the ones who are saved?"

In general the LDS believe that all those that are born to earth will be resurrected. This is a free gift of Jesus Christ. Also He gives as a free gift forgiveness of sins for those that repent. This gift you must make the effort to pick up the gift so to speak. Then depending on your desires you will go to different levels. I know this is a strange concept but we believe that Satan and one third of heaven rejected G-d and his plan knowing that they would be punished by not obtaining a physical body ect. So in some way they got what they desired which was to fight against G-d.

*"ALL people will receive glory, whether or not they follow Christ. Is that true? "1 Corinthians 15:41-50
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; indeed, star differs from star in glory. So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45Thus it is written, ‘The first man, Adam, became a living being’; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual.
Plus there is more in the Mormon D&C that you can look up that expands on this and other Mormon writings.
True from the stand point all will be resurrected and their glory will be at least above the spirits that will never gain a physical body.

Also we don't really believe in a hell of fire. Hell is being seperated from G-d and Christ.

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon,

"but I know for sure there are none currently there - deity or not!"

"....You can't know this for sure unless you have been there. There maybe no scriptures about female deity but if G-d choose one to be such, as in the Christ concept He not being G-d but becoming a G-d, then Heavenly Father can exalt anyone he chooses to be a exalted g-d. ...."

I will not use my own words because it will give you permission to take them out of context again.

Instead I will use the scriptures to answer you seeing as you did not pay any attention to my previous comments, but chose to jump into the topic feet first, not prayer and brain first.

You can find the passage talking about the concept 'queen of heaven' in Jeremiah 7:17-20 and Jermeiah 44. From these passages the nature of a female deity is made quite clear from God's perspective!

On the nature of Jesus Christ .... please read John 1:1-14. Then read Isaiah 9:6,7 which is apt for this time of the year for many people.

Please explain to me how Jesus can be called 'Everlasting Father' in your concept quoted as : "not being G-d but becoming a G-d, then Heavenly Father can exalt anyone he chooses to be a exalted g-d."

Doesn't this passage squash your viewpoint completely, when viewed together with the language from Jesus' mouth - 'I and the Father are one' ? Talk about evidence of God incarnate ! Jesus did not become God - he was already God before He was born!

Teranno4x4 said...

Just because it doesn't fit in with your theology, doesn't mean that it can be ignored.

Teranno4x4

Teranno4x4 said...

Dear Anon or other pro-LDS,

From Anon's statement above on the topic of glory....

How can you interpret the Biblical scripture above that he used from 1Cor 15:46 "But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. " to suggest that man existed as a spirit being first, when it blatantly states that the physical matter is first and then the spiritual which I define for ease of language as 'immortally celestial' ?

There will be a lake of fire as Revelation describes, where it is the sentence proclaimed and not the punishement that will have everlasting consequences (translation concept from original lanuage). Can you imagine living in an earth made new with a lake of fire and screaming wicked souls at the bottom of your garden for all eternity...? More simply understood, they will die the Bible defined second death.

Teranno4x4

Anonymous said...

I don't have time to do my Master's degree thesis or a white paper on these subjects so I cut out small parts and try to explain them. I don't take you out of context to sum how change what you are trying to say. Some times I not sure what you are getting at.

"Please explain to me how Jesus can be called 'Everlasting Father' in your concept quoted as : "not being G-d but becoming a G-d, then Heavenly Father can exalt anyone he chooses to be a exalted g-d."

This concept may or may not be LDS but I has to do with G-d being the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ being His Son. I know you do not think of them a differing persons but we do and this topic has been covered many times. One of the scriptures of the New Testiment has Christ stating that the Father is greater than He. My logic tells me that there is two---G-ds or Father and Son one greater than the other. Having said this the logic follows that if Christ is in heaven and other prophets, apostles, then there can be woman there. If G-d wanted to exalt a woman to any status with Christs glory she would be as he is. This I am pretty sure is in the New Testiment. We are to become like the Son Jesus Christ.

We or I do not believe in the worship of female deity this includes prayers to the Virgin Mary, although people can worship as they see fit.

richdurrant said...

Teranno,
reading your verses from Jeremiah, I see the problem of female deity is the worship of the deity, not whether or not one exists. This is for any God but one. We are to only worship one God. Belief that one can become like God or belief in other Gods is not what these verses are discussing. Worshiping of other Gods is the sin.

Ayla said...

Wow, I could write a novel in response to some of these posts, but instead of taking all that time and space I think I'll just throw this out to those of you who might care, there is a terrific book called The Divine Feminine: The Biblical Imagery of God as Female by Virginia Ramey Mollenkott. Also another great book is, In Memory of Her:
A Feminist Theological Reconstruction of Christian Origins
Elisabeth Schussler Fiorenza.

I would also like to point out again that Joseph Smith said that as Mormons we believe the bible only so far as it is acurratly translated and he died before he could retranslate it all so why are we debating the bible at all? Shouldn't we be taking anything it says with a huge grain of salt?

richdurrant said...

We debate the bible because not everyone shares the belief of translation with us.

Teranno,
I read John and I was left with a question. What does only begotten of the Father mean? Did Christ divinely conceive himself? Was his his own father who is greater then himself?

Anonymous said...

"What does only begotten of the Father mean? Did Christ divinely conceive himself? Was his his own father who is greater then himself?"

Stop asking those questions confusing and complicating matters.

Anonymous said...

{Memory of Her:
A Feminist Theological Reconstruction of Christian Origins
Elisabeth Schussler Fiorenza.

I would also like to point out again that Joseph Smith said that as Mormons we believe the bible only so far as it is acurratly translated and he died before he could retranslate it all so why are we debating the bible at all? Shouldn't we be taking anything it says with a huge grain of salt?}

I read the above book many years ago it is because of this book and other books like this iw why we debate the bible. It confirms such believes that Joseph Smith had about the bible. I just look for more research and hope to find the time to read your other recommendation.

Anonymous said...

*"when it blatantly states that the physical matter is first and then the spiritual which I define for ease of language as 'immortally celestial' ?"
I can say I have no idea what you are getting at with this. But the whole chapter is covering many topics but the major point is the connection between Adams fall and Adams (Christs) quickening spitirit or resurrection of the dead.
As for Corinthians 15:46 "blatantly" showing that there was no spiritual before the physical I don't see it as there are other scriptures that imply there was a spiritual before the physical.
CORINTHIANS
CHAPTER 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in acorruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in aglory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a anatural body; it is raised a bspiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The afirst man bAdam was made a living soul; the last cAdam was made a dquickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not afirst which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
22 For as in aAdam all bdie, even so in cChrist shall all be made dalive.
John 5: 21.
21 For as the Father araiseth up the dead, and bquickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

richdurrant said...

I wasn't trying to confuse anyone. Actually trying to clear up the confusion that already exists.

Anonymous said...

I was just kidding about the hard questions and you did a great job of clearing it up for me too.

Anonymous said...

"There will be a lake of fire as Revelation describes, where it is the sentence proclaimed and not the punishement that will have everlasting consequences (translation concept from original lanuage)."


Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (גהינום)) is the Jewish hell or purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification[1] and fire for the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but not for eternity.

In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna." The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the underworld of punishment in the afterlife.

Gehenna also appears in the New Testament and in early Christian writing to represent the place where evil will be destroyed. It lends its name to Islam's hell, Jahannam.

And again we feel it will be a seperation form G-d and this will seem like a burning.

Anonymous said...

**Please explain to me how Jesus can be called 'Everlasting Father' in your concept quoted as : "not being G-d but becoming a G-d, then Heavenly Father can exalt anyone he chooses to be a exalted g-d."

**"Doesn't this passage squash your viewpoint completely, when viewed together with the language from Jesus' mouth - 'I and the Father are one' ? Talk about evidence of God incarnate ! Jesus did not become God - he was already God before He was born!"

Sounds like spirit before the physical to me.

When Christ were telling the Jews He was the Son of G-d or Son of Heavenly Father and that G-d was also our Father they wanted to stone Him, Christ used the Old Testiment scriptures that stated "ye are gods" by when again tryed to tell them He was the bread of life they tryed to kil Him.