tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post1016378730920209225..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Saved By Grace, After All We Can Do? Inisghts from Paul in Ephesians 6Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19900780465939094032011-11-09T13:23:59.296-06:002011-11-09T13:23:59.296-06:00Bart is starting to just repeat himself by restati...Bart is starting to just repeat himself by restating his position as a response. I would too, if I had put so much time into a website and found that it's completely worthless because of what LDS really believe.Lamdaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10550528525997628134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-941761638664131952011-11-05T21:31:40.009-05:002011-11-05T21:31:40.009-05:00Well said, Jeff. I have nothing whatsoever to add...Well said, Jeff. I have nothing whatsoever to add.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-38755155722153590572011-11-05T19:20:57.460-05:002011-11-05T19:20:57.460-05:00Bart, you mistake the destination with the journey...Bart, you mistake the destination with the journey. Our journey toward Christ begins with simply believing in Him, and grace kicks in right away. After the first brave steps on the straight and narrow path, new Christians will find their sins washed away, their understanding enlightened, their joy growing, and the gifts of the Spirit increasingly guiding their lives. But the journey isn't over and God is not finished with the transformation He seeks. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48) Was He joking??<br /><br />We can abide in Christ and His grace and grow to be more like Him, or we can wander away or, per the parable of the sower, wither away. The teachings of Christ and the whole organization of His Church are tools to help change us and help us grow. <br /><br />Christ came to the Jews and immediately raised the bar regarding their behavior. Read the Sermon on the Mount. The law said not to commit adultery, but Christ raised the bar to command us not to even look upon another lustfully. The law said don't kill, but Christ raised the bar and warned us against anger itself. On and on he goes, raising the bar to teach us godly behavior. He gave us commandments to transform us so that we can reach the lofty goal, unachievable on our own, but possible through the grace of Christ. <br /><br />You speak of the commandment to serve God with all our heart, might, mind, and strength as if it were a pernicious Mormon innovation. Those words were among the most important in the Old Testament (Deut. 6:5). That command was not done away by Christ, by repeated by Him, along with the commandment to "love thy neighbor as thyself" (another very-high-bar commandment), in Mark 12:29-34.<br /><br />The journey toward Christ has the impossibly lofty goal of becoming like Him (1 John 3:2, but read all of 1 John). Peter described the journey toward that state of "putting on the divine nature" in 2 Peter 1. He says we must give all diligence, and describes a path of adding knowledge, virtue, patience, and, yes, godliness. He warns that those who don't do these things, who don't progress toward Christ, have forgotten that they were once purged of their old sins. "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure, for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." (2 Peter 1:10) Diligence in what? In serving God, even with all our heart. He wants our hearts, our minds, our whole lives to be directed toward Him that we may be joint heirs with Him with glory revealed within us (Romans 8:14-18) later, not now, as we become more like Him through His transformative power along that straight and narrow path. The high prize of Christ Jesus, the one that Paul urges us to strive for, is a destination with a high bar indeed, impossible for us, but possible for God if we'll let Him lead us forward on His path.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17867374802898919482011-11-05T16:05:50.854-05:002011-11-05T16:05:50.854-05:00@Lam,
I don't have anymore to add than what I&...@Lam,<br />I don't have anymore to add than what I've already said. Mormon Scripture clearly sets the bar for achieving grace at "AFTER ALL WE CAN DO", which if you are honest you will have to admit that even now there's more you could be doing. Let me know when you've done ALL...<br /><br />@Papa<br />By your definition of Godly I would have to be "conforming to the laws and wishes of God".<br /><br />How are you doing on that? Are you conforming yet? If not is his grace sufficient for you? (IF...THEN, Grace | Moroni 10:32)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00329669497147562071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31989933147279326342011-11-05T13:38:02.015-05:002011-11-05T13:38:02.015-05:00Come on Bart! I'm hoping for a great response...Come on Bart! I'm hoping for a great response from you.Lamdaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10550528525997628134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-64772079524499161482011-11-04T21:40:34.925-05:002011-11-04T21:40:34.925-05:00and those godly people aren't all Mormon - the...and those godly people aren't all Mormon - there are more godly people outside the LDS Church (and outside Christianity) than there are in it, since there are FAR more of "them" than of "us"Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16569692252444895072011-11-04T21:38:50.350-05:002011-11-04T21:38:50.350-05:00"godly" = "conforming to the laws a..."godly" = "conforming to the laws and wishes of God; devout; pious;<br />coming from God; divine." <br /><br />Fwiw, I know lots of godly people who are not God. They are godly - or, at least, they are striving to be godly. <br /><br />Dictionary definitions are important. Just saying.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10522162321677593792011-11-04T18:00:06.195-05:002011-11-04T18:00:06.195-05:00Moroni 10:32 is the IF...THEN statement for grace:...Moroni 10:32 is the IF...THEN statement for grace: (CAPS added)<br />"... IF ye shall deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you"<br /><br />Have you denied yourself all ungodliness yet? Cause that's what you have to do for his grace to be sufficient.<br /><br />You can't be ungodly i.e. you must be godly before grace kicks in.<br /><br />If I was godly I wouldn't need grace. I would already be GOD.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00329669497147562071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32894984391115132192011-11-04T17:19:12.652-05:002011-11-04T17:19:12.652-05:00I just had to comment on this since it is so commo...I just had to comment on this since it is so commonly misunderstood in the LDS Church.<br /><br />Mormons believe we will be able to get into Heaven by grace alone. By Heaven, I mean a place far more beautiful and lovely than anything we can imagine on Earth. To obtain this, we have to do absolutely nothing. Christ has saved us already.<br /><br />HOWEVER, to be eligible for the "New and Everlasting Covenant" of Eternal Marriage, and the progression to Godhood, we MUST "come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ".<br /><br />Only then, can "ye can in nowise deny the power of God."<br /><br />Moroni 10:32<br /><br />So, yes, we have all be "saved" just as the Evangelicals believe, but we have received a new covenant from God, just as Jesus brought a new covenant to the Jews to attain FAR more.CFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60778488397608398302011-11-04T00:29:27.383-05:002011-11-04T00:29:27.383-05:00Cindy, I think every Mormon I know would add their...Cindy, I think every Mormon I know would add their own "Amen!" to that last comment.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1596748659816651982011-11-03T21:09:28.086-05:002011-11-03T21:09:28.086-05:00I think Jeff is right...we do have to keep the com...I think Jeff is right...we do have to keep the commandments...repent of our sins ...accept every bit of good counsel...but Paul does describe the level of the bar if that is what we choose.<br /><br />"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. <b>Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.</b>"<br /><br />Falling from grace is seeking to be justified by the law, not failing to keep it. And freedom from the law allows those of us who are saved by Christ to willingly follow His commandments..to love God and others...which fulfills all the law! Amen!Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-44866966757831640522011-11-03T17:55:30.548-05:002011-11-03T17:55:30.548-05:00Latter Day Saints are fully aware of who Christ is...Latter Day Saints are fully aware of who Christ is and what he has done for us. We understand this was the plan before the foundation of the world. Without Christ, we are nothing.<br /><br />However, it is glaringly obvious that our Lord and Savior expects something from those that call themselves his followers. One obvious scripture is from the New Testament, when one asks the Lord what must he do do inherit eternal live. <br /><br />"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"...<br /><br />and the conversation was about living the basic laws of the lord, and the man says he has done that, but Christ tells him he still lacks one thing...<br /><br />So apparently, simply knowing Jesus is the Christ is not quite enough. Jesus told the man that he actually had to do things, a sacrifice if you will. <br /><br />The Man did not lack knowledge that Jesus was the Christ based on his questions to the Lord. He wasn't even willing to sacrifice one iota for his salvation.<br /><br /><br /><br />This notion that you can simply pay lip service to the Lord is one of the worst distortions and changes in the gospel that has been perpetuated on mankind. <br /><br />GeneGenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08924181730363009240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-5515517535873788872011-11-03T17:42:57.156-05:002011-11-03T17:42:57.156-05:00I just want to say, I’m eternally grateful for Jos...I just want to say, I’m eternally grateful for Joseph Smith, and all of the modern prophets since him who have been bold enough to teach without reservation the truth that unless we follow Christ with all of our hearts and strenght, we have no reason to expect eternal life. It’s definitely not a popular doctrine but I think it’s one of the most important things ever restored.mkprrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409950642803422998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76573511591349242682011-11-03T13:10:20.142-05:002011-11-03T13:10:20.142-05:00The 3rd Article of Faith reads "all mankind m...The 3rd Article of Faith reads "all mankind may be saved by obedience". <br /><br />Yup! That is what it says. <br /><br />Notice that it does NOT say, "all mankind ARE saved by obedience".<br /><br />I wonder if you can (or want to) understand the difference.<br /><br />Even this scripture makes it clear.<br />D&C 14:7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which GIFT is the greatest of all the GIFTS of God.<br /><br />Notice that eternal life is a GIFT that is GIVEN to the obedient. Good works can NEVER earn it. It can only be given. And by God's own words, He gives it to the obedient.<br /><br />Even Paul admits it.<br />Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:<br /> 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:<br /> 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,<br /> 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;<br /> 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:GBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17806952561255425967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66819148427227687232011-11-02T10:36:54.325-05:002011-11-02T10:36:54.325-05:00Bart, there are several cultural references on you...Bart, there are several cultural references on your list, as well as many things that I would consider to be "sound counsel." Your position on our beliefs suggests that failing to adhere to each of these items means some sort of damnation or retribution. Is that right? Because if we believe that we MUST do each of things in the strictest sense to be saved, then not doing them would mean the opposite. Where, in our doctrine, does it say that I must group date and not pair off in order to be saved? <br />We teach our youth things that will help them to be Christlike, such as avoiding fornication, and these guidelines help to facilitate that. <br /><br />Protestants love Paul, so let me use his words to validate this interesting commandment you've pointed out:<br /><br />Ephesians 5:3-5<br /><br /> 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;<br /><br /> 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.<br /><br /> 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.<br /><br />So Bart, a couple of things there from your man Paul. First, his list is oppressive, wouldn't you say? I mean, he has a list (and that's not all of it) of things that seem to prevent the saints in Ephesus from "inheriting the kingdom of Christ and of God." And on that list is fornication. <br /><br />Suddenly, that list of suggestions isn't such a silly idea. And why does Paul teach that salvation is conditional upon works? Your thoughts?Lamdaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10550528525997628134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-71976482991316055802011-11-02T07:28:33.979-05:002011-11-02T07:28:33.979-05:00Bart - would you mind responding to this statement...Bart - would you mind responding to this statement by the Savior?<br /><br />"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"Popsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17790744345973141852011-11-01T23:46:46.781-05:002011-11-01T23:46:46.781-05:00@Lam,
Sorry I missed your post. There are just so...@Lam,<br />Sorry I missed your post. There are just so many of you and only one of me. I had no idea what I was getting myself into!<br /> <br />None of us on this blog thread are in authority to interpret scripture that's why I have referenced the interpretation of church leadership.<br />-------------------------<br />@Papa,<br />There should be no culture line items in my list. Each line item has been researched and documented. These items are coming from church leadership over the pulpit & in church publications.<br />Tattoos are a good example. Why didn't Pres. Uchtdorf repudiate this edict (tattoos) in the conference talk you referenced? Uchtdorf spoke out against Pharisaical rules but failed to follow up by removing any rules. (He mentioned local stuff but I don't have any local stuff in my list)<br /><br />Also you seemed to imply that God's word has an expiration date and that the line items in my list are outdated. Please let me know which line items have been deprecated and I will remove them. I was careful not to select any items that have been changed so the list should be absolutely current.<br /><br /><a name="http://http://afterallwecando.com" rel="nofollow">afterallwecando.com</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00329669497147562071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33294805151286510822011-11-01T23:46:33.344-05:002011-11-01T23:46:33.344-05:00I really like what Lamdaddy pointed out in his 11:...I really like what Lamdaddy pointed out in his 11:23 AM comment, how we have to somehow adhere to the interpretation of our doctrine as given by those who are not of our faith, and not by those who are. In other words, apparently the only valid interpretation of our doctrine is that given by our critics. We are not allowed to define our own faith and doctrine, and when we do we are reminded that some church authority somewhere might possibly disagree with us (again with the words of the church authority subject to the interpretation of the critic, and not us).<br /><br />I just wonder if I will ever hear a critic that doesn't first tell me what I believe, and when I subsequently try to clarify what I actually believe, I am informed that I really don't understand the doctrine of my church (despite the fact that I have been learning it and teaching it for many years now). I somehow find it hard to believe that someone who is not a member of my church somehow knows more about my faith and doctrine than I could ever know, and that their interpretation is <i>the only</i> authoritative interpretation that can be used in any discussion of my faith's doctrine.<br /><br />In terms of our doctrine we very publicly and continually assert that we are saved by Christ (or God's grace). But because we are saved by grace, that does not excuse us from keeping the commandments. We also very publicly and forcefully proclaim that if we are to even have a desire to live with God then we must keep His commandments. Is that such a terrible doctrine? Is is such a terrible thing to keep God's commandments? and to insist that all God's children should keep his commandments? We do it because we love Him, and when we are told that we shouldn't place so much emphasis on keeping commandments, what you are in effect telling us is that we should not love God, and we should not be moral, and we should not strive to live up to the potential that God has given to us through His Son Jesus Christ. And for us to give up that is unacceptable. Thus we <i>will</i> keep His commandments.Quantumleap42https://www.blogger.com/profile/16711817313734546305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-59074274759261097272011-11-01T22:28:53.550-05:002011-11-01T22:28:53.550-05:00Bart, I'd be curious to see a response to some...Bart, I'd be curious to see a response to some of the things that I pointed out. It's curious to make a point that LDS members believe something that we really don't believe. We are regular joe members and have gone through great lengths to explaining the LDS position and you respond with "the LDS church position is quite the opposite?" Sure, people understand as well as explain things differently, but you are going to be hard pressed to find the official LDS position that states that we are somehow saved through works alone.Lamdaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10550528525997628134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81922676755856879852011-11-01T21:52:08.576-05:002011-11-01T21:52:08.576-05:00Bart, read Pres. Uchtdorf's fairly recent Gene...Bart, read Pres. Uchtdorf's fairly recent General Conference talk about how we tend to take cultural things and make commandments out of them. If you are arguing that common Mormon CULTURE, especially among many local members and leaders, is Pharisaical, I can't argue at all. However, to say that the global leadership endorses such extreme Pharisee-ism just is plain wrong - especially if you are arguing about the current leadership and not compiling a list that goes back decades and centuries and over a millennium. <br /><br />Even Pres. Packer has warned about over-programming at the local level and cautioned the local leadership to simplify rather than complicate. <br /><br />Oh, and those things you listed in your last comment? They aren't laws, since they aren't enforced. I've seen tatooed, pierced members being baptized and taking the sacrament - and I saw a man in a witness couple in the temple with a beard and a long braid that reached almost to his waist. I have a fairly conservative Stake President, and I wore a polo shirt or colored shirt to many of my stake leadership meetings without any reprimand whatsoever. <br /><br />There is a HUGE difference between "law" and "culture" - and you're conflating the two with your list. <br /><br />Frankly, that's my only objection - that you are equating culture with command, and that simply is inaccurate.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-335083378860895422011-11-01T20:49:46.833-05:002011-11-01T20:49:46.833-05:00@Jeff,
I'm happy to see we can agree that we ...@Jeff, <br />I'm happy to see we can agree that we are saved by grace and that works don't save us.<br />My argument is that the LDS church position is quite the opposite.<br />The 3rd Article of Faith reads "all mankind may be saved by obedience". <br /><br />Sure, members like yourself have blogs and talk about grace as a free gift, being saved by grace. And posit neo-orthodox interpretations of passages like 2 Nephi 25:23. <br /><br />However, let's let LDS church leadership interpret that passage. Let us defer to Prophet Ezra Taft Benson who said that "After All We Can Do" is keeping the commandments. He goes on to list a bunch of other items that are part of "All we can do". Such as visiting the sick, etc. It's a list much like mine.<br /><br />After All We Can Do, Benson, 1988<br />http://lds.org/liahona/1988/12/redemption-through-jesus-christ-after-all-we-can-do?lang=eng<br /><br />My website is simply an illustration of what it would really take for someone to do <b>everything</b> as instructed by the LDS church leadership and the Book of Mormon.<br />-------------------------<br />@Eric about Eph 2:10. Yes I agree we are saved then we do good works. There's no need for the law anymore, we are driven by gratitude to complete his will.<br />In other words there's no need at all for the list I compiled on my site yet the church keeps piling on more law. No tattoos, No piercings, No flip flops, tons of stuff that don't matter to salvation but are piled on for nothing more than a Pharisaical Culture.<br />-----------------------------<br /><br />Thank you for being open to discussion I've really enjoyed the engagement.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00329669497147562071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-2634622146511591022011-11-01T20:14:06.239-05:002011-11-01T20:14:06.239-05:00At first I thought that Bart and his website didn&...At first I thought that Bart and his website didn't merit response, but the more I thought about it I realized that the only person who would spend that much time and effort researching "all" the commandments of "Mormonism" would have to be a member of the Church, because if not then he has apparently outdone <i>every</i> member of the church in terms of orthodoxy and has done what no other member has done, which is enumerate <i>all</i> 600+ commandments (did you know that we <i><b>have</b></i> to "Make [our] children fold their arms in church", man, I must be going to hell for that one since my 4 month old just <i>will not</i> fold her arms!).<br /><br />So once I realized that the list was compiled by such a good faithful member of the Church I though, "Why would such a good faithful Mormon put up such a ridiculous website?" Until I though, "He must be the ultimate anti-Mormon troll." Think about it, a site that is designed to attract anti-Mormons like moths to a light, where the premise of the site is so ludicrous that it would make Pastor Robert Jeffress blush, it makes me wonder if the intent of the site is to spread misinformation and unsubstantiated rumors among anti-Mormon circles in an effort to make them look ridiculous and irrational.<br /><br />And then they wonder why we don't take them seriously. Seriously.<br /><br />[Sorry Jeff, if this comment is a little too harsh for your blog feel free to delete it, and let me rewrite it in a less sarcastic way.]Quantumleap42https://www.blogger.com/profile/16711817313734546305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-82250117527479822132011-11-01T19:56:18.738-05:002011-11-01T19:56:18.738-05:00Fascinating debate, folks, though I have to say th...Fascinating debate, folks, though I have to say that watching it unfold makes me glad I'm Jewish.<br />;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57587924321315050982011-11-01T17:36:58.662-05:002011-11-01T17:36:58.662-05:00Works based? The most works-based religion you kno...Works based? The most works-based religion you know? <i>Early Christians</i> were asked to do more that Mormons are today. They were asked to consecrate everything - they had all things in common. They were given abundant commands and instructions from their leaders and had long lists of things to avoid and were encouraged to do many things to build up the kingdom and share the Gospel. Read the New Testament, man, and then read the Apostolic Fathers with the earliest Christian sermons and writings. It's very familiar territory for LLD folks--all the exertions to obey and keep the commandment, a habit reinforced by the rather plain teachings of Christ about the need to keep the commandments with language like "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments". But all the expectations to DO things with their faith, to press toward the mark of the high calling of Christ Jesus, to run the race and endure to the end, to serve God with all one's heart and mind and strength as Christ taught, not just the Mormons, does not negate grace or imply that works save instead of Christ. The works don't save us, but the things that we do help us grow in grace, and importantly, help us stay on and move forward on the straight and narrow path that Christ provides for us through His grace. It helps us abide in Him, overcome evil, and keep grace working in us. We are saved by grace, but accessing the full blessings of grace require that we follow Christ and repent of our sins, not just acknowledge Him. <br /><br />Those who are saved by grace can still fall from grace--we can reject Christ and return to sin. The Bible teaches that plainly. The exhortations of Paul and others to Christians make no sense otherwise. So we maintain grace in our lives by seeking to follow Christ. How difficult is that to grasp? Does belief in that biblical concept make us non-Christian?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-26114713057532966622011-11-01T13:44:44.376-05:002011-11-01T13:44:44.376-05:00"First of all, I reject the paradigm you prop..."First of all, I reject the paradigm you propose of salvation without exaltation. That really diminishes the value of the word "save". Your proposition would send hoards of "saved" souls to an eternity outside the presence of God. (aka Hell, saved unto eternal damnation?)" <br /><br />If that wasn't so laughable, it would be sad. Even if you take the multiple degrees of glory into consideration, the Telestial Kingdom is described as eternity in the presence of a member of the Godhead. There literally is NO equivalent in Mormon theology to the actual lake of fire and brinstone taught within much of Christianity. <br /><br />Bart, you realize, I'm sure, that one of the reasons Mormonism is called a non-Christian cult by many Prostestants is that we teach it isn't necessary for people in mortality to accept Jesus in order to be saved - that we believe Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, agnostics, atheists, etc. all can be "saved" AND/OR "exalted" through the atonement of Jesus. If you want to get into an argument that says one group is too limiting when it comes to the reach of God's grace and the atonement of Jesus, the Christ, it's patently absurd to claim the more limiting one is Mormonism. <br /><br />Also, as Lamdaddy said, to chalk up Biblical references to "commandments" as somehow showing that Mormonism is Pharisaical but not admitting upfront that those same commandments apply to all of Christianity (at least those who take the Bible seriously), and to add all kinds of simple counsel and advise that are not enforced as "commandments" in any way, shape or form smacks of the rankest hypocrisy. <br /><br />Focus on the commandments which, upon violation, will get a Mormon excommunicated by the LDS Church. The list will be quite small - and it will be much more applicable to your Pharisee comparison than your current list.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.com