tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post1086733358561030077..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Anti-Mormon Tactic: Deliberately Creating ConfusionJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50704752754062399132009-10-30T12:20:59.594-05:002009-10-30T12:20:59.594-05:00Here's the kind of thing I find on Christian s...Here's the kind of thing I find on Christian sites that want to say Mormons aren't Christian:<br /><br />Did you know Mormons don't believe in hell? Forget about the fact that the Book of Mormon is even more explicit about the reality of hell than the Bible ... Mormons don't believe in it.<br /><br />Did you know that Mormons don't worship Christ? They say he's a spirit brother of Satan rather than Jehovah, the Almighty One.<br /><br />Did you know Mormons think they should obey God rather than sit back and be saved by grace? This means they are doing work and taking credit for their own salvation! They don't believe in the Savior at all -- they just believe in obeying him. Wait ... I mean they believe in taking glory unto themselves.<br /><br />Did you know Mormons explain baptisms for the dead in one sentence -- that they are work done for people who are dead -- rather than in a long philosophical diatribe as meaningless as it is long-winded? The Mormons have to be wrong!twitterpatednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76184850266030421452008-09-11T07:59:00.000-05:002008-09-11T07:59:00.000-05:00Hi Zachary,I'm glad you're all fired up about your...Hi Zachary,<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you're all fired up about your religion, but let me pose this question to you, and I'm not trying to be insulting here. Without going into the party line ranting about how you know the church is true, and you know that JS was a prophet, and that Tom Monson is a prophet, and that the BOM is true, tell me exactly what it is that you believe about Christ. Also, tell me exactly what it is that that means. <BR/><BR/>Catholic DefenderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1290113349781998612008-08-29T14:09:00.000-05:002008-08-29T14:09:00.000-05:00I love the Gospel of Jesus Christ which comprises ...I love the Gospel of Jesus Christ which comprises of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints. it offers freedom from hatred, unkindness. would the Savior deliberately try to destroy something good? I know for myself that the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints is the true gospel once again on the earth and the truth can be found within the walls of the church and not on an anti sight. I leave this hoping that it will help someone remember who they are or perhaps feel the sting of incorrect tradition.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16854129352129104829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-82136947803251739302008-08-10T20:27:00.000-05:002008-08-10T20:27:00.000-05:00Catholic Defender,I for one believe your sincerity...Catholic Defender,<BR/><BR/>I for one believe your sincerity and would not characterize you as anti-Mormon. Various posts of yours have shown a well-thought-out line of reasoning. (Not that we would agree on it of course, but that you do make it easy to understand your context.)<BR/><BR/>No missionary or other member, no matter how well-intentioned, should try to explain away your experience. I don't think any of us could explain why it's so diametrically opposed to our own experiences, any more than you could explain our experiences. I'm sure a casual observer would see this interchange and conclude that we're all just fabricating stuff on our own, however I think we can both agree on this: salvation is personal. It should never depend on what anyone else's experience is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73754597983487583772008-08-04T12:07:00.000-05:002008-08-04T12:07:00.000-05:00Other examples include Nathan: In 2_Sam. 7:5-17, w...Other examples include Nathan: <BR/><BR/>In 2_Sam. 7:5-17, we read that the prophet Nathan unequivocally prophesied to David that through his son Solomon the Davidic empire would be established "forever," that the children of Israel would dwell in the promised land "and move no more," and that the "children of wickedness" would no longer afflict them. These things are quite clearly stated. No conditions are attached to these promises, none whatsoever.[4] <BR/>Yet this prophecy clearly did not prove successful if it is interpreted literally. <BR/><BR/>Joseph Smith made some amazingly correct prophecies. <BR/><BR/>The specific prophecies that are said to be false or incorrect by critics are typically based on hearsay or unreliable sources or are based on incorrect interpretations of what is said. There is no reliable evidence to say that Joseph Smith fails any sound test based on Deut. 18:22. <BR/><BR/>Many LDS critics attempt to condemn Joseph Smith using a standard that would, if applied to Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Nathan, an angel of God, and Jonah, also condemn the Old Testament as a fraud.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57235153370897325542008-08-04T12:03:00.000-05:002008-08-04T12:03:00.000-05:00And the angel who spoke to Samson's mother: [In] J...And the angel who spoke to Samson's mother: <BR/><BR/>[In] Jud. 13:5, where it is recounted that an angel promised Samson's mother that Samson would "begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines." No matter how liberal or expansive one wants to be with the facts of Israelite history (as recorded in the Bible or elsewhere), there is no way it can reasonably be concluded that Samson fulfilled this prophecy. <BR/>Not only did Samson fail to even "begin" to free Israel from the Philistines, but (1) there were times when he consorted with Philistine women, (2) he married a Philistine, (3) he himself never even led any Israelite troops against the Philistines, and (4) the Philistines eventually humiliated him. <BR/>Moreover, and most importantly, Israel actually lost ground to the Philistines during Samson's tenure. Judges 13-16 illustrates Philistine encroachment into Hebrew territory. The Samson narrative documents the eastward expansion of the Philistines by mentioning the Philistine presence in Timnah and Lehi, both in the strategic valley of Sorek (Achtemeier 1985:787-791). This Philistine expansion worsened the land shortage that eventually forced the Danites to migrate northward. <BR/>Of course, the nonfulfillment of Judges 13:5 can be attributed to Samson's failure to live according to his Nazarite calling. In addition to his sexual liaisons, he married a Philistine, ate unclean food, drank wine, and allowed his hair to be cut. Therefore, it could be said that the angel's prophecy was nullified by Samson's behavior. However, the angel placed absolutely no conditions on his promise that Samson would begin to deliver Israel from the Philistines. He simply declared that Samson would do so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77939552651865926322008-08-04T11:58:00.000-05:002008-08-04T11:58:00.000-05:00To: David BucknaThe prophet Ezekiel provides anoth...To: David Buckna<BR/><BR/>The prophet Ezekiel provides another example of how true prophets may err or give prophecies of uncertain accuracy. In Ezekiel chapters 26, 27, and 28, we read that Tyre (a fortified island city) would be conquered, destroyed, and plundered by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. The riches of Tyre would go to Babylon (Ez. 26:12). Nebuchadnezzar's army did lay siege to Tyre, and its inhabitants were afflicted, apparently so much that they shaved their heads bald, as prophesied in (Ez. 27:31). However, the 13-year Babylonian siege apparently was not quite as successful as Ezekiel had predicted, perhaps because the land-based tactics of Babylonian sieges were less effective against a fortified island city with significant maritime power. The result of the siege may have been a compromise or treaty rather than total destruction and plunder, for (Ez. 29:17-20) reports that the predicted plundering did not take place. Almost as if in compensation, the Lord now announces that He will give Egypt to the Babylonians, which is the theme of chapter 29. Here are verses (Ez. 29:17-20): <BR/><BR/>17 And it came to pass in the seven and twentieth year, in the first month, in the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, <BR/>18 Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it: <BR/>19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army. <BR/>20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord GOD. (emphasis added) <BR/>Yes, Tyre is no more, but its complete destruction apparently did not occur during the Babylonian siege, and certainly the Babylonian army did not get the riches of Tyre as has been prophesied. It is Ezekiel himself who reports this "prophetic failure."[3] <BR/><BR/>The purpose in raising this issue is not to question the wisdom of the Lord, nor the truthfulness of the Bible, but to point out that an overly critical attitude and a strict application of Deut. 18:22 may reject even true, Biblical prophets. If we try hard enough to find reasons to reject a prophet, we will surely succeed—but beware lest we judge unwisely and reject those whom God has sent and anointed, even though they be mortal and fallible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81531083193003685422008-08-04T08:20:00.000-05:002008-08-04T08:20:00.000-05:00Dear Anonymous of August 1, 2008,There's nothi...Dear Anonymous of August 1, 2008,<BR/><BR/>There's nothing you can say that will get me to change my mind. Is that sincere enough for you. I will point out that not everyone is like the protestant minister you ran across. Some of us do pray and inquire with an open mind and sincere desire to know the truth. However, the truth some of us learn is that the BOM is untrue. You as a returned missionary should not take the position that our desire was not sincere, nor that our prayers did not ask the right question. God reveals truth in his own way, in his own time. <BR/><BR/>That said, I do agree that a great many folks do criticize your church, but are unable to back up their criticisms. In the same token, a great many LDS claim the truthfulness of their testimony, but can not say exactly what that testimony is. For example, this past Sunday was your fast and testimony meeting. If your ward is anything like my wife's ward, you had a great many folks stand up, and testify that "they know the BOM to be true, and that this is Christ's Church, and that JS was a prophet of God, and that President Monson is a prophet...etc." But, when it comes down to saying exactly what it is they believe and why...there's no real substance. Just some thank yous for their spouses and children, thank you's to the ward family, Christ lives, a few other words, and then I say this in the name of Jesus Christ. This is a pretty typical testimony that I hear routinely every month. I would also point out that in virtually every testimony I've heard over the years, Christ's name is the only reference to Christ in the entire testimony. <BR/><BR/>The point I'm making is that if you testify that you believe in Christ, you need to be able to articulate why and what that means regardless of your religious upbringing. <BR/><BR/>The other thing I would say is that we all need to be willing to listen to each other. Some of that "anti-mormon" information does have a factual background that bears explanation. JS and Polygamy for lack of a better and more recent example. Consider that at the beginning of D & C 132 in the headnote, there's information that says JS knew about this doctrine in 1831, but that it didn't become official church doctrine until 1843. The 12 year gap sure raises some question. Especially when you consider JS and others were practising polygamy for quite a few years before it became official church doctrine. Even more suspect to those of us outsiders is that polygamy seems to become official doctrine at about the same time the LDS church is taking heat for practicing polygamy. <BR/><BR/>I am not trying to be persecutory here, I am trying to point out that the negative sentiments run on both sides of the fence. I'll give you another example, and it is one I've pointed out in different post. A few years ago my wife and I went to general conference. I am not mormon, but her bishop secured tickets and it meant a lot for her to go, so I went with her. Conference was actually pretty cool, though I felt very much an outsider, kinda like being a black guy in a white redneck bar. But that isn't the point of my story. <BR/><BR/>What struck me as sad was that as you walk into the conference centre, on all sides of the streets are various protest groups. Some of these groups were very obviously strong fundamentalist protestant groups carrying the most hateful signs. Signs such as repent, or the LDS church is the devil's church, really nasty stuff. Also very unchristian stuff. At the same time, there were other groups of protestors who were very obviously mormons...the white shirts, clean cut ties and name badges really stand out. Now the second group was also carrying protest signs calling on folks to join the LDS church and stop practising. The LDS groups' signs were not as nasty or hateful, but the messages were just as unchristian in spirit in the sense that I don't think God would be proud of either group standing out there arguing about the truthfulness of their respective churches. I can't tell you if there were any Catholics there, we don't stand out in the crowd as much as LDS or Protestants, I imagine there were a few though. <BR/><BR/>Now the point of my story is that God would be very unhappy with all of us for our behaviour over our respective religions. There is a great dialogue in Romans 13 through 15 where St. Paul talks at great length about tolerance and working together to build up God's kingdom. Also part of that dialogue is a discussion about not doing anything to detract from someone else's practise of their faith. I've read it at length and try very hard to take to heart in my life what St. Paul is trying to say. Unfortunately, I think most of the anti-mormons who attack you guys, and to some extent you LDS guys seem to miss that entire section of the bible. We're none of us supposed to be fighting about which of us is right. What we are supposed to be doing is helping each other build up our faith in God. That is the only way we will ever really establish the Kingdom of God.<BR/><BR/>That's my thoughts on the subject. By the way, Bookslinger, thank you for the compliment. I'll consider developing a blog name. <BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/><BR/>Catholic DefenderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81513307590756973982008-08-02T00:38:00.000-05:002008-08-02T00:38:00.000-05:00As a missionary my companion and I came across a p...As a missionary my companion and I came across a protestant minister. He, as you can imagine, liked to talk more than listen. One thing he said was that every time he comes across Mormon missionaries they want to meet with him but their (the missionaries') leaders forbid them. Knowing that to be nonsense we took his card, gave him a call and set up a date. We met him at the local ward building and he didn't come alone--he brought two of his pastor colleagues.<BR/><BR/>All the details are unimportant, but needless to say the meeting went on for probably three hours. One topic of discussion I found particularly enlightening was the "grace vs works". Explaining their own beliefs the pastors said, "We believe that God chooses who will be saved." What seemed like an obvious rebuttal followed, "sounds like he chooses who he's going to damn to hell, huh? I'm not so sure I like that God" Their response: "oh no we can't assume that, the scriptures don't say that". "Sure out of pure neglect. If God doesn't choose to save me then he is very well choosing to damn me," I replied. Then before any more intelligent discussion could happen, they changed topics to some other LDS "scandal". Just like the bouncing ball on sing alongs they're onto the next line before you can finish singing along!<BR/><BR/>My point being is I find it so interesting that it doesn't matter if you have Biblical scriptures to back up your point, because in that case your interpretation is wrong. It doesn't matter if you have logic on your side, because common sense isn't spelled out word for word in cannon.<BR/><BR/>One of the biggest prophecies of the BoM and of the Mormon church is found in Moroni 10:3-5. There it is prophecied that if you have a sincere heart, real intent and ask God in the name of Christ he you will receive a confirmation of the truthfulness of the BoM. But rather than take up Moroni on his prophecy the insincere play games with "but the bible doesn't say I have to pray," and other shell games. Why can't those people just be honest and frank and say, "You know what I'm really not interested. There's nothing you can say, there's nothing that you can do, and there's nothing you can show me that would change my mind." It would quickly be discovered that the only reason they are continuing the conversation is because they, in fact, want to convert you. And that's when it's time for us to be frank and tell them nothing they can tell us will change our minds.<BR/><BR/>To you insincere people on the blog, be honest. Don't pretend like (I heard this on my mission all the time), "I would gladly join your church but there's just this one thing..." and then go on to spew out word for word the latest craze in anti-mormon garbage. We will gladly admit to you that you aren't going to change our minds. Then we can both stop wasting our time.<BR/><BR/>Part of our frustration, or in some cases thick sarcasm, is due to the fact that the same questions get asked over and over and over again, and despite the answer rarely does someone say, "Oh that makes sense, thanks for taking the time to resolve my concern".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13048179156295389112008-08-01T20:00:00.000-05:002008-08-01T20:00:00.000-05:00Jeff's stake (Appleton Wisconsin) recently got a n...Jeff's stake (Appleton Wisconsin) recently got a new stake president, and it was announced in the "Church News" weekly newspaper.<BR/><BR/>It gave his name and employer, so you could look up either his (the stake pres) home address or his work address.<BR/><BR/>We could have some fun writing to the Appleton Wisconsin stake president telling him what a member of his stake has been doing online and what kind of web sites he runs. <BR/><BR/>Hopefully (and probably so) he already knows Jeff and would get a laugh out of it.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-48923763362565198412008-08-01T10:05:00.000-05:002008-08-01T10:05:00.000-05:00I'm pretty sure that MormonCult.org is a creation ...I'm pretty sure that MormonCult.org is a creation of Jeff Lindsay's. It's permeated by his sense of humor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10130893493703124552008-08-01T09:38:00.000-05:002008-08-01T09:38:00.000-05:00You do know that MormonCult.org is PRO LDS satire,...You do know that MormonCult.org is PRO LDS satire, right? Click on the links at the bottom--I found them very funny. An LDS MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-4444879610658820552008-07-31T11:30:00.000-05:002008-07-31T11:30:00.000-05:00The back and forth debate on this post is like wat...The back and forth debate on this post is like watching a ping pong match. I am getting dizzy.<BR/><BR/>You have to know when the field is white and ready to harvest. Move on if it isn't. This was a concept taught us on my mission in Chile by our Area President, Elder Mickelson. <BR/><BR/>There are too many that are ready to hear the Word of God and listen to waste time arguing with a stone wall.<BR/><BR/>Nuff said 8^)Dan the Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02699271258855632485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36895103170477163392008-07-31T09:19:00.000-05:002008-07-31T09:19:00.000-05:00David Buckna is a troll. You can stop feeding him ...David Buckna is a troll. You can stop feeding him now. It's a complete waste of time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-69898785464330616872008-07-31T07:33:00.000-05:002008-07-31T07:33:00.000-05:00Thanks Jeff. I was going to remove that comment t...Thanks Jeff. I was going to remove that comment this morning after sleeping on it. You beat me to it.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90105526783148534922008-07-31T04:23:00.000-05:002008-07-31T04:23:00.000-05:00Buckna, said,"But in Luke 24, the two people walki...Buckna, said,<BR/><BR/>"But in Luke 24, the two people walking to Emmaus were _already disciples_ of Jesus. They were disciples/followers of Christ BEFORE they experienced "warmed hearts"--the exact opposite of what Mormonism teaches."<BR/><BR/>Although you can parse the scriptures to small details and sift out what meaning you think is correct about the meaning of the scriptures my personal experiences run contrary to your above statement and would lead me to deny that Christ came in the Flesh.<BR/>I was never religious with the exception of attending bible school for about 4 summers with my grandparents. At the point I became an adult I was a pagan or a heathen in my believes and attitude toward God and man but I came to a cross roads in my life and was burdened with a convicted soul. Because I was burdened with my past I prayed to God to know if He existed and if He did I would do my best to follow him. As I did I felt this burring in my soul that you claim is only for disciples of Christ. One year later I was in college reading about Christ and again obtained this same powerful burring of the heart that testified that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. About a year from that time, I was introduced to the Book of Mormon and the story of Joseph Smith's vision of the Father and the His Son Jesus Christ, when again I obtained the same powerful spiritual experience of the Holy Spirit witnessing to me that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and was resurrected. After this point I have obtained many witnesses of the Holy Spirit about truth and wisdom of my brother Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>All of these experiences were obtained with out me knowing very much about the scriptures because I needed Gods blessings. He did not care how well I can parse the scriptures to prove my point nor did He wait for me to become his disciple to save me from my sins. If you were to prove what your are saying is correct about a burning in the heart as a witness of Christ you would be responsible for requiring me to deny the Holy Ghost and that Jesus Christ has came in the flesh. This would require me to become a son of perdition and an anti-Christ. Be careful what gospel you are preaching. To cause one of God children to lose a testimony of Jesus Christ is a serious matter. Preach only repentance and Christ that has come in the flesh to this generation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90319676472362807782008-07-31T00:04:00.000-05:002008-07-31T00:04:00.000-05:00David, in your view, how would a non-believer unfa...David, in your view, how would a non-believer unfamiliar with Christianity come to know that Jesus is the Christ? Isn't some encounter with the Holy Spirit going to be part of this process? <BR/><BR/>From our perspective, it is through revelation from God that we can each know that Jesus is the Christ (as Christ told Peter, for example, in Matt. 16). Revelation can come in various forms, but wouldn't you agree that those seeking revelation from God might do well to pray for such guidance? Wouldn't you agree that prayer can help bring us closer to the Spirit and make it more likely for us to receive the gracious gifts of the Spirit?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25365296732787796332008-07-30T23:46:00.000-05:002008-07-30T23:46:00.000-05:00Comments that strike me as name-calling will usual...Comments that strike me as name-calling will usually be deleted, no matter how much I like the poster. Just removed one.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37826365288905230092008-07-30T23:04:00.000-05:002008-07-30T23:04:00.000-05:00My understanding of the Road to Emmaus story is th...My understanding of the Road to Emmaus story is that the disciples, for some reason, did not recognize the risen Christ until after he left them. They then marvelled that they should have recognized him, as the Holy Spirit bore witness to them of the resurrected Savior as he taught them.<BR/><BR/>The fact that they were already disciples does not factor here. The Holy Ghost testifies of truth wherever it is found. Which explains why you can feel the burning in the bosom or other witnesses of the Spirit in any location/situation wherein the truth of God is being taught.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21595384484594727022008-07-30T22:41:00.000-05:002008-07-30T22:41:00.000-05:00Catholic Defender:In regard to your question about...Catholic Defender:<BR/><BR/>In regard to your question about people getting different answers to their prayers about whether the Book of Mormon is true:<BR/><BR/>I think it's risky business for someone to interpret the answers to another person's prayers. So I would hope that you'd take any comments by others (including me) in regards to the answers you've received to your prayers as mere ideas to consider, and not anything definitive.<BR/><BR/>(There is a related issue in the LDS church that we believe a person in a priesthood leadership position does have the right to receive inspiration/revelation for people under their ecclesiastical authority, but even that is pretty much limited to ecclesiastical matters, and also subject to spiritual confirmation and acceptance on the part of the subordinate.)<BR/><BR/>I think it's pretty much up to the pray-er to interpret whatever answer or non-answer they get.<BR/><BR/>Some of the things that I try to keep in mind when I seek answers in prayer:<BR/><BR/>1. am I asking the right question(s)?<BR/><BR/>2. do I really want to know the answer?<BR/><BR/>3. have I done my homework? IE, have I done the preliminary work, research, leg-work that God wants me to do prior to Him provding the rest of the answer, or the confirming answer? IE, have I been a dilgent and faithful servant, or am I being lazy and asking God to give/tell me a short-cut?<BR/><BR/>4. do I already know the answer?<BR/><BR/>5. will I obey the answer and adjust my life accordingly? Because if not, then I would be "sinning againts greater light" and therefore come under greater condemnation.<BR/><BR/>6. have I cleansed myself sufficiently, or have at least strived to cleanse myself and be worthy of an outpouring of Spirit or knowledge that would be entailed in the revelation of this answer? (or would I be like the ancient Israelites in the desert who shunned the presence of God and demanded that Moses be their interface?)<BR/><BR/>7. do I really have the faith that God could or would provide this answer?<BR/><BR/>--<BR/><BR/>Then once I get an answer, sometimes it needs interpreting. Sometimes the answers to the following are obvious, sometimes not:<BR/><BR/>1. is this answer from God, or the Devil, or my own imagination?<BR/><BR/>2. what am I now supposed to believe, say or do?<BR/><BR/>3. if the answer came as a feeling more than words (or more than an up/down yes/no confirmation/rejection), how do I translate it into words that I can write in my journal?<BR/><BR/>4. is this answer exhaustive or is it for a restricted set of circumstances?<BR/><BR/>5. is this answer universal, or just for me?<BR/><BR/>6. Does this answer apply for a certain time period, or is this a permanent thing?Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56456450834168987872008-07-30T22:15:00.000-05:002008-07-30T22:15:00.000-05:00Catholic Defender:I admire your style of asking qu...Catholic Defender:<BR/><BR/>I admire your style of asking questions. You seem to have kept pretty level-headed in the various posts on this blog.<BR/><BR/>In order to keep confusion to a minimum, would you please consider creating a Blogger "profile" and posting under that profile so that no one could immitate you? <BR/><BR/>You don't need to create a blog with a profile. And you don't need to make your profile public. But what it does is give you a personal "handle" and prevents others from forging your name under an anonymous post.<BR/><BR/>If you want to get caught up to speed quickly on basic Mormon doctrine, get the book GOspel Principles. Free at most LDS chapels, free from most LDS missionaries, or free online at www.lds.org (<A HREF="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=d7561b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=ea697befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____" REL="nofollow">Try here</A>). <A HREF="http://www.lds.org/gospellibrary/materials/gospel/Start%20Here_01.pdf" REL="nofollow">Or a PDF version here</A>.<BR/><BR/>You can buy a paper-back physical (printed) copy for $3 (free shipping) at www.ldscatalog.com if you don't want to go through the missionary department or real live Mormons. www.ldscatalog.com won't ask if you're a member or non-member, and they don't give names or addresses to the missionary department.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77006474116008520612008-07-30T22:11:00.000-05:002008-07-30T22:11:00.000-05:00If we are to try the spirits, how then are we to d...If we are to try the spirits, how then are we to do this? <BR/><BR/>I think prayer is a viable option, it saddens me to think that someone who says that they are a christian wouldn't find prayer as an option just because he or she doesn't find it spelled out in The Bible. I hope that is not what is meant, but it seems that way from sone of these comments. <BR/> News flash, The Bible isn't the final authority on things, God is. I'd rather go to my Father in Heaven in prayer and fasting and with a humble heart than rely solely on The Bible with it being one of, if not the most, disputed books ever produced, also I don't trust all of my answers soley to The Book of Mormon. I prefer prayer accompanied with the studying of the scriptures.<BR/>Now this isn't saying The Bible has no value, it has tremendous value. It certainly gives us key points of instruction and helps us learn of Christ and his teachings. One such instruction given by the Savior himself is found in Matthew 7:7 <BR/><BR/>"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."<BR/><BR/>What could be more plain and simple. While some comments on this post try to declare that one need not pray about the Book of Mormon but test the spirits, this being in accord with the Bible. The answer is right there, ask and ye shall receive, in The Bible. I'm sure non LDS-Christians have heard that verse before. I don't know about everyone else, but I ask God things through prayer. And that is exactly what the Savior instructs us to do. This is how one can test the spirits or anything else one comes in contact with. How you receive the answer is between you and God. Trying to tell others that their spiritual experiences are bogus is a dangerous thing. God speaks to each person individually, some get a burning in the bosom, which has be aforementioned, others receive answers through other experiences. Buckna essentially said that the example of the two disciples doesn't work for Mormons or people deciding to be Mormons because the two men visited by Christ were disciples already. I think that is a lame argument, anyone seeking to become a disciple of Christ can receive any spiritual manifestation that God choses to send. I have not felt the burning in the bosom. I have received my answer from God, through the Holy Ghost, in the way that he choses to communicate with me. That is for me, and each person, to hold special. I have let very few people know of my experiences because of the instruction given by Christ in Matthew 7:6. (and yes, I have read the whole Bible and not just Matthew.)<BR/><BR/>To everyone learning about the Church, study the scriptures, doctrines, everything you can, ask God in the name of Christ if it is or is not true. It is that simple.<BR/><BR/>I am sorry that this is so long.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-180803028756756652008-07-30T20:57:00.000-05:002008-07-30T20:57:00.000-05:00Anonymous said:"Buckna, said:"But the Bi...Anonymous said:<BR/><BR/>"Buckna, said:<BR/><BR/>"But the Bible _does say_ NOT to trust the feelings of our hearts (Proverbs 28:26; Jeremiah 17:9), nor can a person trust every spiritual witness (1 John 4:1-6)."<BR/>LUKE<BR/>30After Jesus sat down to eat, he took some bread. He blessed it and broke it. Then he gave it to them. 31At once they knew who he was, but he disappeared. 32They said to each other, "When he talked with us along the road and explained the Scriptures to us, didn't it warm our hearts?" 33So they got right up and returned to Jerusalem.<BR/><BR/>I think that you can not except the fact that we have had this witness and we are happy and full of the spirit. We invite you to come join us and find out what you are missing."<BR/>-----------------------------------<BR/>The above reference to Luke 24 cannot be used to argue the idea that one should pray about the book of Mormon because, as CRI founder Walter Martin said, "A [Bible] text without a context is a pretext."<BR/><BR/>If you read further back in Luke 24, you'll learn that the two people walking to Emmaus and met the risen Jesus _already_ were His disciples! They were disciples, THEN experienced "warmed hearts" after realizing it was the risen Jesus who had "explained everything written about himself in the Scriptures, beginning with the Law of Moses and the Books of the Prophets." (verse 27)<BR/><BR/>See: Luke 24:13-35, which begins:<BR/><BR/>13 That same day two of Jesus' disciples were going to the village of Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. <BR/>----------------------------------<BR/>A Mormon missionary told me that before he was a Mormon he had prayed about whether the Book of Mormon was true, and once he did, he experienced the "burning in the bosom"/feeling in his heart that the book of Mormon was true.<BR/><BR/>Pray --> then experience the feeling (warmed heart)--> become a Mormon. One believes AFTER one prays.<BR/><BR/>But in Luke 24, the two people walking to Emmaus were _already disciples_ of Jesus. They were disciples/followers of Christ BEFORE they experienced "warmed hearts"--the exact opposite of what Mormonism teaches.<BR/><BR/>Again, nowhere in the Bible does it say prayer is a test for truth.<BR/>The Bible is the Word of God, the truth. So is Jesus Christ (the Word incarnate; John 1:1) the truth:<BR/><BR/>"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by me." John 14:6.<BR/><BR/>Christians are to test the spirits, not pray over them. I John 4:1 states: "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."<BR/><BR/>David BucknaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21050469779602772032008-07-30T15:51:00.000-05:002008-07-30T15:51:00.000-05:00To give an example about praying with an open hear...To give an example about praying with an open heart: <BR/><BR/>I remember once as a missionary asking someone to pray about whether the Book of Mormon is true or not... they immediately bowed their head and said something like, "Please help these poor deluded boys see how wrong they are and how the book they carry is false."<BR/><BR/>Sorry, doesn't count.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-22252098872377092972008-07-30T15:46:00.000-05:002008-07-30T15:46:00.000-05:00CD said:For me personally I have prayed in as earn...CD said:<BR/><I>For me personally I have prayed in as earnest a manner as I know how, to know the truth, and the truth revealed to me, is that the BOM is not true.</I><BR/><BR/><I>The attitude, though unspoken, that I have recieved from the elders and members of my wife's church seems to be that I must not have prayed the right way. That being with an open heart and mind to know the truth.</I><BR/><BR/>I think the reason you get that attitude is because (in my experience at least) very, very, *very* few people who start out convinced the Book of Mormon is false are actually willing to pray about it with an open mind. In this case I would define an open mind as saying "I don't believe it but I want to know God's take and am willing to accept that I might be wrong."<BR/><BR/>If you prayed with an open mind you are in the vast minority, and I'm happy to agree to disagree. Nobody can (or at least should) tell you to go against what you believe God has revealed to you. At the same time, however, I hope you can extend the same acceptance to those who have prayed and feel God told them it's true.<BR/><BR/>$0.02Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.com