tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post112079799152174348..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Knowledge in Part, Prophecies in Part: The Terror of Uncertainty vs. the Comfort of the Spirit of GodJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1121299058136332602005-07-13T18:57:00.000-05:002005-07-13T18:57:00.000-05:00Jericho Brown: I know that you and pretty much ALL...Jericho Brown: <I>I know that you and pretty much ALL Mormons are Republican.</I><BR/><BR/>FWIW, I'm a Mormon. And I'm not a Republican.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1121289398762705812005-07-13T16:16:00.000-05:002005-07-13T16:16:00.000-05:00"And it is my strong, strong conviction that Mormo..."And it is my strong, strong conviction that Mormonism's followers are barking up the proverbial wrong tree. This conviction is based on simple research and discovering what is and what is not."<BR/><BR/>I also have my convictions, which apparently are based on much more than yours.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I was born into the Church, but in largely non-Mormon area. My friends were members of the different faiths. I began to study, very profoundly, my church's beliefs when I was about 15. This also meant I ended up running into a lot of anti-mormon literature at this early age. We too, have read what you have read , and (as it has already been mentioned) perhaps even more than you have. I even had times when I questioned what I believed.<BR/><BR/>You can say all that you want about the Church, it's leaders, practices, beliefs, etc. I've heard all these things already, and much more. And yes, there are very reasonable explanations for these things. But when I have had a very personal and extremely spritual experience, there is nothing you can do or say to refute that. When my experience with the Lord has brought me to tears and produced in me an effect that I could never explain in words, you have no right to tell me what I believe is false. I received my answer straight from the Lord, and you have absolutely no evidence that I didn't. I'm positive that if you could feel what I felt, you too would not care about the critisms. <BR/><BR/>I can understand your point of view. I've been there, believe me. But now that I've seen how the Church and its teachings have created a better life for me and for a number of others, it's become more than just a game of fact-piling. I acknowledge the critisms (which, in many cases, are well-supported), but once I recieve an answer from the Lord, everything comes into light. Everything makes sense. To paraphrase Latter-Day scripture, I know in my mind AND in my heart that these things are true. They make sense. But the fact that they just "make sense" is pale in comparison when I stop and think about what kind of person I have become because of the Lord and His church. And that's evidence that I can't convey to you. Only the Spirit can.<BR/><BR/>My favorite scripture, John 9:24-25, puts it a lot better than I can:<BR/><BR/>24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.<BR/><BR/>25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.<BR/> <BR/><BR/><BR/>I don't care what other people say. The only thing that matters to me is what I've felt in my own heart, and no one can take that away from me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120957241483375432005-07-09T20:00:00.000-05:002005-07-09T20:00:00.000-05:00Oh, and I'm quite happy to see that you have found...Oh, and I'm quite happy to see that you have found logical evidence for the reality of God. This is good news. <BR/><BR/>And I'm almost flattered that Mormonism seems to you to be at the same level of stupidity as atheism - you've put us a few notches higher than I was expecting. Thanks! ;)<BR/><BR/>I think I see where you are coming from. Your continued comments are welcome now.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120957049121716762005-07-09T19:57:00.000-05:002005-07-09T19:57:00.000-05:00No time right now - but Jericho, please don't I'm ...No time right now - but Jericho, please don't I'm a Republican. I'm actually quite unhappy with the Republican party - but that's for another blog. <BR/><BR/>And I find your recent posts just fine. You're welcome to keep commenting, as you wish. These are healthy points to discuss and they are topical, since I've raised the issue of limitation in prophecies. <BR/><BR/>Just a quick note before I run: prophets in the Bible were fallible many times. No surprise if we have mortals in our day as well.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120949676865224232005-07-09T17:54:00.000-05:002005-07-09T17:54:00.000-05:00First of, I'm pretty fortunate that what I believe...First of, I'm pretty fortunate that what I believe isn't false. <BR/><BR/>JB you said "it IS slavery if the limitations you are putting on yourself--regarding alcohol, sex, attendance at church--are based on beliefs that were concocted by people who claimed to have a much closer connection to God than they actually do/did." That's a big if. Let's clarify some things here. I don't have any limitations on me. Yes I've lost some things, but all of the above mentioned I'm free to do or not do. I fully understand the consequences of doing or not doing them. It makes good sense to not do te negative things, and It makes excellent sense to me personally to go to church. Two, no one in the church has ever said to me, do this or else. They've always said, pray about it, ask God if it's true, and if he answers you, do it. So the Church first teaches us to question authority and make choices for myself. That doesn't really sound like brain washing to me. Does it to you? <BR/> Now let's talk about you. I've been to your blog.(both of them) It looks like you #1, don't like Bush. #2, like girls, and #3 are pretty sure of yourself. I don't want to feed you a bunch of garbage. I guess what I want to know is, Why does it matter to you if I'm Mormon or not? Or are you just doing this to amuse yourself because you're bored?Larke Wittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446106361530533179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120946075077606092005-07-09T16:54:00.000-05:002005-07-09T16:54:00.000-05:00I believe that some of Joseph Smith's revelations ...I believe that some of Joseph Smith's revelations were personal, and personal revelations are based upon the actions of the person and of the people around them.<BR/><BR/>Some of the prophecies sited sound funny to me. As in, not quite in context or correctly stated. <BR/><BR/>Many of them though were personal revelations to either Joseph or whomever he was refering to and therefore subject to not coming true by the personal choices of the individual.<BR/><BR/>Remember Samson and Delilah. That story is a perfect example of choices by Samson and those around him destroying what might have been.<BR/><BR/>You can read the scriptures online at <A HREF="www.lds.org" REL="nofollow">lds.org</A>. Click on scriptures on the lefthand menu. I mention it so you can read Samson's story and the D&C where most revelations within are from Joseph Smith.ruthiechanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04222831585992837540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120930422103603982005-07-09T12:33:00.000-05:002005-07-09T12:33:00.000-05:00Jericho, step back and think about the amazing cha...Jericho, step back and think about the amazing chasm between liberals and conservatives. Both are convinced that the other is crazy and cannot understand how the other can cling to their ridiculous views when it is so obvious that they are wrong. How can Republicans support Bush when it so obvious that the war in Iraq is based on lies and atrocities? How can Democrats keep pushing for the same failed socialist policies that have caused the very problems they claim to be solving? How can anyone be so idiotic as to not see things my way? <BR/><BR/>The issue is not just facts, but frames of reference - the worldview or paradigm set that guides how we interpret facts, what facts matter, and what principles matter. <BR/><BR/>To one that has looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and then saw Jesus preaching with the power of the Spirit, then saw Him walking on water, healing the sick, and standing alive after the Resurrection, there can be no doubt that He was divine. For one with that perspective, scholars can argue all day using the Talmud and the Torah to prove that Jesus could not have been the Messiah, and one could line up dozens of witnesses to attest that He was a liar, a fraud, a charlatan, and a drunk, and one could have credible witnesses testifying the Resurrection was based on crooks who hid the body. And none of that would matter. To those who only knew the arguments and witnesses against the Messiah, the testimony of a few crackpots who claimed to have seen Him alive would be pure foolishness in light of the evidence againt him. Can you appreciate how distant the two worldviews would be?<BR/><BR/>In the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, people generally do not join or stay in the Church on the basis of who can win a debate. There is a spiritual dimension - the reality of God, the power of revelation, the witness of the Spirit - that must be there. Sure, I think I can make a pretty strong cause that the Book of Mormon could not possibly have been forged by Joseph Smith - the Arabian Peninsula evidence alone rules out the possibility that someone could have made it up in 1830, in my most objective opinion - but that does not change my behavior, it does not make me filled with love for the Savior and want to repent and follow Him, no matter what the price. An intellectual conversion alone is not enough - we must know in our minds and in our hearts that Jesus lives and that we must follow Him. <BR/><BR/>So let me start with the most basic question, Jericho. Do you believe in God? Or is it possible, in your worldview, that there might be a God who is our Heavenly Father and loves us? And if so, do you believe it possible that Jesus Christ was divine, the son of God and Messiah for the world?<BR/><BR/>If not, we need to start there. Jumping into the pros and cons of polygamy or the implications of statements made by Brigham Young or Bruce R. McConkie would be a waste of time because we would be arguing about maps drawn for different continents that would only move further apart as we argued, if you get my drift. <BR/><BR/>Oh, and thanks for the civil tone. I suspected that the nastiness wasn't the real you! Glad to be past that!! And I'm sorry for some possible overreaction on my part as well.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120922626176304722005-07-09T10:23:00.000-05:002005-07-09T10:23:00.000-05:00In the end, it all came down to reading the Book o...<I>In the end, it all came down to reading the Book of Mormon with an open heart, willing to possibly look at it for what it claimed to be...<BR/><BR/>...and it made all the difference.</I><BR/><BR/>Nicely said. We can either listen to the Spirit of God or not ...Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00219023897626648057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120889521915812872005-07-09T01:12:00.000-05:002005-07-09T01:12:00.000-05:00JB. I'm not a life long Mormon, In fact I joined t...JB. I'm not a life long Mormon, In fact I joined the Church 7 years ago. My Wife is a life long member. When She was 13 she prayed and asked God if the Church was true, just like I did when I was 21. She and I believe we received answers to prayer. Whatever mormon history has or does not have in it does not and will never negate those answers to prayer that we've had. We are Happy with our lives, we choose to be this way, so we are not shackled by anyone, and we have hope for a better world by our involvement in the church. What have i loft since becomeing amember of the Church. I've lost some friends who think I'm an idiot because I think different than them. I've lost my alchoholism. I've lost pre-marital sex. What have I gained. I've gained a wife who loves me and who I love. I've gained freedom. I've gained purpose in my life. What's so wrong with that? <BR/><BR/>As for the first poster, I'd recommend Terryl Givens' Books. Both "By the Hand of Mormon" and "The LAtter-day Saint expereince in America" are excellent. <BR/><BR/>And as for Jeff, Thanks for mormanity and cracked planet. I've read from your site since I joined the church and it has made a difference. keep it upLarke Wittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446106361530533179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120880583172671502005-07-08T22:43:00.000-05:002005-07-08T22:43:00.000-05:00I love your blog Jeff, keep up the good work!I love your blog Jeff, keep up the good work!Ryan Franklinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14036674455231345943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120862266014518682005-07-08T17:37:00.000-05:002005-07-08T17:37:00.000-05:00Mr. J., that's probably something I would actually...Mr. J., that's probably something I would actually enjoy doing - if it were civil and all that - but I don't have the time to spend a day debating anybody - I barely have the time to delete inappropriate comments. <BR/><BR/>Look, there are some things about you - if I interpret correctly - that I like: political savvy (do I detect a tinge of Libertarian attitudes? - if so, that's cool), persistence, demand for facts, and the ability to write well when you want to. But I think you misunderstand the reason for my blog. It's my little piece of turf - silly as it may be - to share things that I want to talk about. It's more like the front yard of a home than it is a public square. If people wander in and misbehave, I shoo them off the yard. <BR/><BR/>And please try to understand, from my deluded Morman perspective, that repeatedly insulting my faith, making threats, and violating other of my policies is misbehavior. <BR/><BR/>Today I had the thought that if we had met in a cafe and started talking, we might have had an enjoyable conversation, and when it came to religion, we could slug it out civilly and agree to disagree. But now I'm questioning my sanity in even replying here, when the riled part of me says just delete his comments and get more helpers to keep on deleting them 24 hours a day. But what a waste for both of us. <BR/><BR/>Let me admit for all the world that there are tough questions I cannot yet answer, not just about Joseph Smith, but about God, life, the Bible, Jesus, the Creation, and so forth. However, I think I've addressed many of the above questions on the so-called errors in Joseph Smith's prophecies on my LDSFAQ pages (see, for example, http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophets.shtml and http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophecies.shtml). But these will not convince you - one can always raise arguments on any point of religion. So if it helps, let me just say that you win since I cannot respond to every argument and am unwilling to engage in a debate-a-thon. Does that help?<BR/><BR/>The people that come to my site have usually seen lots of anti-Mormon stuff - who can avoid it on the Internet these days? This is not the place to post more of it. I'll let the above comments stand - at least for today - but I'm not here to be your sounding board. You think we're crazy. That's OK - it's your right to think that. But I hope you can just shake your head in disbelief and walk away. It would be appreciated.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120861082969166152005-07-08T17:18:00.000-05:002005-07-08T17:18:00.000-05:00SnipsSnipsJeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120856441431905472005-07-08T16:00:00.000-05:002005-07-08T16:00:00.000-05:00And these: Prophecy #1 - Temple to be built in Ind...And these: <BR/><BR/>Prophecy #1 - Temple to be built in Independence, Missouri. In September of 1832 Joseph Smith prophesied that the New Jerusalem and a new temple would be built in Zion, Missouri, a site near Independence. He further stated that his generation would not all pass away until these events took place. The temple was never built in Smith's lifetime or within the generation of his contemporaries. The Mormons were driven out of Missouri in 1839. The site where the temple was to be built is not even owned today by the Mormon Church.<BR/><BR/>Prophecy #2 - The End of all nations. In December 1832 Smith prophesied that South Carolina would rebel against the federal government, resulting in a war that would spread worldwide and would result in the "full end of all nations." Nothing needs to be said about the failure of this bizarre prophecy.<BR/><BR/>Prophecy #3 - The Return of the Lord. In 1835, as the prophecies of William Miller were growing in popularity, Joseph Smith stated that "the return of the Lord is nigh - even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." The 56 years passed in 1891. In a diary entry dated April 6, 1843, Smith repeated this prophecy, stating the Lord would return when "I am 85 years old, 48 years hence, or about 1890." (16) Smith was killed when he was 39 years old.<BR/><BR/>Prophecy #4 - The Liberty jail prophecies. In March of 1839 Smith issued a whole package of prophecies from his jail cell in Liberty, Missouri. (17) Among other things, he predicted that his enemies would be destroyed "by the sword," that his friends would never charge him with transgressions, and that God was about to change the times and seasons. None of these prophecies came true. The enemies of the Mormons were not destroyed, God did not change the times and seasons, and Smith's friends did turn on him with serious charges that ultimately led to his arrest and death.<BR/><BR/>Prophecy #5 - The United States Government to be overthrown. In May of 1843 Smith prophesied that if the United States government did not redress the wrongs suffered by the Mormons in Missouri, the government would be "utterly overthrown and wasted." (18) The federal government rejected the Mormon petitions and their "wrongs" were not redressed, yet the U.S. government continued to exist.<BR/><BR/>Prophecy #6 - His son to succeed him. In April 1844 Smith prophesied that his son would succeed him and would become "president and king of Israel." (19) The child was named David. Needless to say, he never became "president and king of Israel." Nor did he succeed his father. He died in 1904 at the age of 60, after spending the last 27 years of his life in an insane asylum.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646005807747446883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120856160816684652005-07-08T15:56:00.000-05:002005-07-08T15:56:00.000-05:00What about these:In 1835 Joseph Smith prophesied t...What about these:<BR/><BR/>In 1835 Joseph Smith prophesied that Orson Hyde would go to Jerusalem and prepare the way for the regathering of the Jewish people. Hyde never went to Jerusalem. <BR/><BR/>In like manner, in 1837 Smith prophesied that the president of the Church's Council of Twelve Apostles, a man named Thomas Marsh, would go forth "unto the ends of the earth" to preach to both Jews and Gentiles. Less than two years later, Marsh was excommunicated! <BR/><BR/>In 1841 Smith declared that a fellow named George Miller was a man "without guile" who could be trusted, and that no man should "despise my servant George, for he shall honor me." Seven years later, George Miller was excommunicated.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646005807747446883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120853448544844912005-07-08T15:10:00.000-05:002005-07-08T15:10:00.000-05:00"As we encounter the word of God in the Bible and ..."As we encounter the word of God in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, we can know, through the power of the Holy Ghost - the Comforter - that Jesus Christ lives, that He is real, and that His work moves forth on the earth. The comfort and assurance that the Spirit brings to our minds and hearts as we seek God compensates for the terror of an uncertain world in which we only know in part at this time. Faith and patience are needed for now - but it's worth it."<BR/><BR/>This is exactly what I needed to hear today. I was beginning to give in to fear. . . Thank you Jeff.ruthiechanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04222831585992837540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120852474786959162005-07-08T14:54:00.000-05:002005-07-08T14:54:00.000-05:00So are you saying that Mormons prophecies have bee...So are you saying that Mormons prophecies have been infallible and have never proven to be wrong?Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646005807747446883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120845628559834522005-07-08T13:00:00.000-05:002005-07-08T13:00:00.000-05:003rd party snip3rd party snipJeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120845516975943732005-07-08T12:58:00.000-05:002005-07-08T12:58:00.000-05:003rd party snip3rd party snipJeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120831737383801332005-07-08T09:08:00.000-05:002005-07-08T09:08:00.000-05:00I don't understand what you mean, David. You itali...I don't understand what you mean, David. You italicized 'revelations'. Is there a difference between prophecies and revelations? And what is the difference that you are pointing out between incomplete and incorrect?Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646005807747446883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120829825273762782005-07-08T08:37:00.000-05:002005-07-08T08:37:00.000-05:00I don't get it. How can the church leaders claim t...I don't get it. How can the church leaders claim to be prophets in direct communication with God if those communications aren't correct. How is one to know what to believe then?Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646005807747446883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120825439272318312005-07-08T07:23:00.000-05:002005-07-08T07:23:00.000-05:00In reading the Book of Mormon, it does seem that t...In reading the Book of Mormon, it does seem that the Nephites had a pretty negative view of their enemies. Nibley suggested that the "skin of darkness" terminology was a metaphor for spiritual darkness and not necessarily a genetic difference, but it is also quite likely that the dominant Nephi line was different than the Lamanites, who appear to have mingled much more with local peoples that may have been quite different genetically and culturally. <BR/><BR/>Looking at the charged description of the Lamanites that Enos gives (Enos 1:20), we can almost see the thick, dark lenses of his cultural goggles, magnifying the faults of that people: "And I bear record that the people of Nephi did seek diligently to restore the Lamanites unto the true faith in God. But our labors were vain; their hatred was fixed, and they were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a bloodthirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven; and their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us." <BR/><BR/>Sure, Enos may have picked up some racist attitudes in his upbringing. After all, these were mortal enemies he was describing. It wasn't until later people like Zeniff actually got out and saw the Lamanites close up that some Nephites saw the good in the Lamanites. And then we have the marvelous ministry of Ammon and the sons of Mosiah, who found thousands of Lamanites who became their brothers and sisters, and proved more spiritual by far than the Nephites. <BR/><BR/>In reading the Book of Mormon, we need to understand the various individual perspectives of the writers, and recognize that they may be writing with some cultural baggage. Understanding this helps add new depth to the text - and further clarifies the fact that multiple authors were involved, not just one lone farmboy trying to swipe bits and pieces of text from Solomon Spaulding or others.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120822983469294122005-07-08T06:43:00.000-05:002005-07-08T06:43:00.000-05:00Though the authors are LDS, one book that has garn...Though the authors are LDS, one book that has garnered respect outside the Church is <I>The Mormon Experience: A History of the Latter-Day Saints</I> by historians Leonard J. Arrington and Davis Bitton. <BR/><BR/>For non-LDS sources, one respected scholarly author is Jan Shipps. One possible book to consider from her might be <I>Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition</I>. <BR/><BR/>You can also read reviews of many other books, some helpful and some not, at FARMS in their FARMS Review section.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1120809142627294302005-07-08T02:52:00.000-05:002005-07-08T02:52:00.000-05:00Hi Jeff. thanks for your site. can you recommend a...Hi Jeff. thanks for your site. can you recommend any "neutral" books about church history? My friend is reading the book of mormon right now, but she is adamant that she just wants to learn and she doesn't want to convert. She is very skeptical about things. I try to help but i dont know what to really say except assauge some of the questions she has such as perceived racism by nephites against the dark-skinned Lamanites. she is very liberal, but has wonderful morals and does not drink or break the law of chastity at all. she dresses modestly. she just has stopped being religious ever since she started to fight against sexism, racism, and homophobia. she is reading the book of mormon neutrally, but i dont know how to get her to pray about it or what i should even say to her if anything. she is interested in church history, but doesn't want to read anything "by the church." she wants a 3rd person source. can you help?? thank you, i appreciate what you do SO much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com