tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post112819406402555794..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: The Church Affirms the Divinity of the Book of Mormon: Yes, It's Truer than EverJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1129058767463938642005-10-11T14:26:00.000-05:002005-10-11T14:26:00.000-05:00"And for perhaps its first 1000 years, Islam's mai..."And for perhaps its first 1000 years, Islam's main method of being spread was by violent means."<BR/><BR/>Sorry. That's not entirely (or even largely) true.<BR/><BR/>The <I>Arabs</I> spread by military means. Forced conversion to Islam was rather rare, and certainly not characteristic -- for, among other things, the reason that the Qur’an expressly forbids coercion in religion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128371117013117012005-10-03T15:25:00.000-05:002005-10-03T15:25:00.000-05:00Do Catholics and other mainstream religions get bo...Do Catholics and other mainstream religions get bombarded by people attacking their faith over apparent anachronisms and seeming impossibilities in the Bible, as much as LDS get attacked for the Book of Mormon?<BR/><BR/>Look at all the things in the Bible that go against common sense.<BR/><BR/>1. The creation story in Genesis.<BR/><BR/>2. Jacob getting striped or speckled livestock based on what pole or stick he places in front of them.<BR/><BR/>3. God telling Abraham to kill his son. What kind of loving God would do that?<BR/><BR/>4. Moses getting leprosy and being cured of it in an instant.<BR/><BR/>5. That whole thing about staffs turning into snakes and back.<BR/><BR/>6. The parting of the Red Sea.<BR/><BR/>7. "Manna" from heaven. <BR/><BR/>8. Marching around Jericho caused the walls to tumble down. <BR/><BR/>9. Elija calling down fire from heaven.<BR/><BR/>10. Elija being taken up to heaven in a flaming chariot.<BR/><BR/>11. One account has 1 angel at the tomb, and one account has 2 angels at the tomb.<BR/><BR/>12. All those discrepancies between Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Sounds like they couldn't get their story straight.<BR/><BR/>13. Walking on water. Shyeah.<BR/><BR/>14. Spontaneous healings like the lame walking again, lepers being cured, and the blind receiving their sight. There's absolutely no scientific evidence to back that up.<BR/><BR/>15. I've read that there is no evidence in all the records of Egypt, (and they were fastidious record keepers) of there being large groups of Hebrews there, or of the 10 plagues, or of a mass exodus. There is nothing in any archealogical evidence to back up the story of Moses and the Exodus.<BR/><BR/>So given all this, why do Mormons get bashed more than Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, and Baptists?<BR/><BR/>If those other religions added prophets and apostles like Peter, James and John, tacking them onto the prophets of the Old Testament, why do "mainstream" christians "get a pass" for believing in those "new" prophets and apostles, but Mormons are NOT allowed to add "new" prophets and apostles?<BR/><BR/>As far as I know, Mormon missionaries have NEVER forced conversions at the point of a sword, but Catholics (Inquisition, Crusades, and maybe Jesuits) and most definitely Muslims have been notorious for doing so.<BR/><BR/>(Okay, some LDS missionaries allegedly used some trickery and sneaky tactics, but I've never read of any use of or threats of violence.)<BR/><BR/>All over North and South America, native Americans were forced to convert to Catholicism in areas that were controlled early on by the Spanish. <BR/><BR/>And for perhaps its first 1000 years, Islam's main method of being spread was by violent means.<BR/><BR/>Isn't it hypocritical for any avowed atheist to attack Mormons for supposedly "lieing" about Joseph Smith, unless they also speak against every other Christian for "lieing" about the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth?<BR/><BR/>If we're "stupid" for believing Joseph Smith was a prophet, then the same accuser must say that believing that Moses, Elija, Isaiah, and Peter were prophets is also stupid.<BR/><BR/>I can sympathize with well-meaning mainstream Christians who want to "save us" from false LDS beliefs .<BR/><BR/>But an atheist who crusades against the LDS church, is on shaky logical ground unless he directs similar attacks at all Biblical based religions, including Judaism and all denominations of Christianity.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128299298615131472005-10-02T19:28:00.000-05:002005-10-02T19:28:00.000-05:00How can Jaredite and Hebrew be related?Sometimes w...How can Jaredite and Hebrew be related?<BR/><BR/>Sometimes we have to remind ourselves that the following terms are _not_ synonymous, even through they are often used to describe the same peoples. Also definitions and usage have varied over the centuries.<BR/><BR/>In order from general to the specific:<BR/><BR/>1. Semitic<BR/>2. Hebrew<BR/>3. Israelite<BR/>4. Jewish<BR/><BR/>Semites, or Semitic people, are supposedly the descendents of Shem, son of Noah.<BR/><BR/>Hebrews are the descendents of Eber, who was the great-grandson of Shem, per Genesis. Also see Gen 10:24; 11:14-17; Numbers 24:24. <BR/><BR/>Sometimes Eber was called Heber (Luke 3:35). The word Hebrew is a patronymic name derived from Eber. (See LDS Bible Dictionary, and Topical Guide.)<BR/><BR/>Israelite denotes any descendent of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel, not just the tribe of Judah.<BR/><BR/>And of course, Jewish, in the strict sense, denotes a descendant of Judah. However, before the destruction of the Northern Kingdom (the 10 tribes) of Israel by the Assyrians, many of the righteous among them migrated to the Kingdom of Judah, and collectively became known as "Jews" in the aggregate. An item I kept forgetting is that the small tribe of Benjamin, stayed with Judah when the northern 10 tribes split off. So the people of Judah, or the Jews collectively, did include a smattering of other tribes.<BR/><BR/>It could very well be that Jared's people were descended from Eber. And if not, they could still have been descended from Shem.<BR/><BR/>So how could Hebrew names appear in the Jaredite nation? Easy: They were either descended of Eber (making them Hebrews too), or they had another ancestor in common, like Shem.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128298611259270652005-10-02T19:16:00.000-05:002005-10-02T19:16:00.000-05:00"One complication is the occasional use of Biblica..."One complication is the occasional use of Biblical Hebrew names (e.g. Aaron, Levi, Ephraim) in the Book of Ether. Moroni, the Nephite abridger and translator of the Book of Ether, would have known these names, as would Joseph Smith, but the Jaredites themselves would not."<BR/><BR/>i read this while reading wikipedia. i know not to trust everything i read there, but i was wondering if there was any truth to it, and if so how Hebrew names would be part of a civilization from pre-Abrahamic (pre-language changing) timesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128279723874207152005-10-02T14:02:00.000-05:002005-10-02T14:02:00.000-05:00Which Hebrew names are you thinking of? Some names...Which Hebrew names are you thinking of? Some names like Noah go back a long ways. Other Jaredite names crop up later among the Nephites, indicating that Jaredite peoples were still in the land (the nation was destroyed, but the smart money got out of town and went elsewhere as the civil war heated up), and influencing the later immigrants. <BR/><BR/>One interesting article is "<A HREF="http://www.ldsmag.com/ancients/050526mesoamerica.html" REL="nofollow">Surviving Jaredite Names in Mesoamerica</A>" by Bruce Warren. Kish and Shule, for example, fit into ancient Mesoamerica pretty well.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128275566364575062005-10-02T12:52:00.000-05:002005-10-02T12:52:00.000-05:00I've read that "And it came to pass" was a phrase ...I've read that "And it came to pass" was a phrase that could be expressed by one symbol in Hebrew. It occurs 336 times in the Old Testament. So it's not out of place in the Book of Mormon.<BR/><BR/>We have to remember that translated writings from Hebrew authors are going to pick up gramatical styles that seem unfamiliar to modern-day English speakers. A very good example is Genesis 1. All but two of the verses start with the word "and".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128245825184281682005-10-02T04:37:00.000-05:002005-10-02T04:37:00.000-05:00hahahaha jeff, deja vu. that was so funny how he r...hahahaha jeff, deja vu. that was so funny how he replied to your post exactly as you described. good times.<BR/><BR/>i have a question about hebrew names appearing in the jaredite nation. how could that happen?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128231148892040152005-10-02T00:32:00.000-05:002005-10-02T00:32:00.000-05:00Paul said, "When you have to cite evidences from t...Paul said, "When you have to cite evidences from the Arabian peninsula as proof of its veracity, it makes one wonder even more about the wars, the civilizations, the animals, the steel, the foods, and all its other anachronisms that supposedly took place on this continent."<BR/><BR/>In other words, your response to the impressive evidences in the Arabian Peninsula is: "What about steel? What about horses? What about all sorts of other stuff?"<BR/><BR/>Deja vu!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128231039270339342005-10-02T00:30:00.000-05:002005-10-02T00:30:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128225562503543862005-10-01T22:59:00.000-05:002005-10-01T22:59:00.000-05:00I buy your story, Ssanndmann. It sounds like you'v...I buy your story, Ssanndmann. It sounds like you've made up your mind, perhaps longer ago than you might realize, but I appreciate that you have given it a try. I don't consider you an anti-Mormon posing as something you're not. <BR/><BR/>OK, to your question. Lots of English speakers are bothered by the awkward working of the Book of Mormon, not recognizing that the very things that seem redundant and "made up" because of their unnatural English ring are actually side-effects from the ancient Semitic origins of the text. Phrases like "and it came to pass" were probably translated from a single short word (often just skipped in the King James translation, as I've read somewhere recently). Other literary techniques that seem odd to us again are highly Semitic. This is an area worth studying more!<BR/><BR/>I think if you do some analysis of the patterns of language in the Book of Mormon, you might notice a number of strong differences between authors. Jacob, for example, is so different than Mormon. Then look at how Alma uses words like "state" and compare that to Nephi or others. But more convincing are the small and subtle things that aren't consciously observed, like the number of sentences beginning with "and" per page or the ratio of "if" to "or" (for example). Computer studies ("wordprints") of the phrasing strongly point to multiple authorship, not a single author - and also show that the styles of these authors do not correspond with Joseph Smith. It's a very interesting area.<BR/><BR/>Would you be interested in reading more deeply about the issue of Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon and the issue of computer word prints? Not that it's going to change anything - sounds like you've become pretty convinced that this is a "weird" Church. <BR/><BR/>Most importantly, I hope you and your wife can maintain a strong and successful marriage, regardless of your religious differences. Sure we're weird, but I hope you can be happy with a little of our style of weirdness in your life. In any case, thanks for putting up with it!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128220804817287052005-10-01T21:40:00.000-05:002005-10-01T21:40:00.000-05:00A test of the prophets?I can't remember the exact ...A test of the prophets?<BR/><BR/>I can't remember the exact scripture, but there is one in the Book of Mormon that reads something along the lines of "many will come up who will say they are prophets ... but judge them by the fruits of their labours to see if they are of me." (If someone could source that, it would be nice).<BR/><BR/>Based on that scripture, I can testify that this Church is true. All of the prophets have done many good services and have contributed greatly to my happiness, and the happiness of others as well. The Church as a whole has done many great services to mankind. This is a church of love, and from that I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and subsequently that the Book of Mormon is true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128217263971458832005-10-01T20:41:00.000-05:002005-10-01T20:41:00.000-05:00I really am married to a Mormon, and really have b...I really am married to a Mormon, and really have been looking for the truth in Mormonism for over five years, and really have reached a point where the pendulum of evidence, for me, really has begun to swing in favor of Mormonism being made up. I really have reached a point of desperately wanting to give Mormonism and Mormons every chance to show me otherwise. Sincerely.<BR/><BR/>The Bible says to test all prophets; however, doing this seems to bother alot of you.sssannndmannnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14568484899488939329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128210062864290042005-10-01T18:41:00.000-05:002005-10-01T18:41:00.000-05:00I suggest we look at sssannndmannn's blog before w...I suggest we look at sssannndmannn's blog before we get too excited about his sincerity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128209842562567592005-10-01T18:37:00.000-05:002005-10-01T18:37:00.000-05:00JeffThe main act of the BofM takes place in the Ne...Jeff<BR/><BR/>The main act of the BofM takes place in the New World. When you have to cite evidences from the Arabian peninsula as proof of its veracity, it makes one wonder even more about the wars, the civilizations, the animals, the steel, the foods, and all its other anachronisms that supposedly took place on this continent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128207217272237982005-10-01T17:53:00.000-05:002005-10-01T17:53:00.000-05:00sssannndmannn: The "burning in the bosom" experien...sssannndmannn: The "burning in the bosom" experience, IMHO, is overplayed and misunderstood by Latter-day Saints.<BR/><BR/>The influence of the Holy Ghost has impacts on the intellectual and emotional centers of the person:<BR/><BR/>"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (John 14:26)<BR/><BR/>"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace," etc. (Galatians 5:22)<BR/><BR/>In LDS teaching the Spirit "enlighteneth your eyes...[and] quickeneth [i.e., makes alive] your understandings" (D&C 88:11).<BR/><BR/>In an early revelation to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, the Lord confirmed that "as often as thou hast inquired thou hast received instruction of my Spirit.... Behold, thou knowest that thou hast inquired of me and I did enlighten thy mind; and now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know that thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth." (D&C 6:14–15)<BR/><BR/>This enlightenment is both to the intellect and the emotions: "I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart." (D&C 8:2)<BR/><BR/>Sometimes Latter-day Saints dwell on the latter and ignore the former. Any testimony from the Spirit of God is going to do more than make you <I>feel</I> good, it's also going to bring new and sudden understanding that you didn't before possess — one of those "ah ha!" moments.<BR/><BR/>Look for that as you study the Book of Mormon and the restored Gospel.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120374705032268459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1128197164074863092005-10-01T15:06:00.000-05:002005-10-01T15:06:00.000-05:00I'm investigating whether the book of Mormon is tr...I'm investigating whether the book of Mormon is true. I haven't read the whole book, but have read what other Mormons have told me to. What I read went "And it came to pass ... and it came to pass ... and it came to pass..." and "And I, Nephi ... and I, Nephi ... and I, Nephi ..." ...it sounds made up. I was also told, by Mormons I met online in looking for help, that you can tell if the book of Mormon is true by praying to God and, if it's true, receiving a burning in the bosom, which I did feel. Is this the "unique test" you speak of? I then tested it by praying whether atheism is true, and felt the same burning in the bosom. In fact, any time I check for it I feel a burning in my bosom...I think it's my heart at work or something. Has anyone else who's felt the burning in the bosom tested it as I have? If I have it wrong, what is the unique test? Thank you.sssannndmannnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14568484899488939329noreply@blogger.com