tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post113293193835403356..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: The Temple and the BibleJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1134630136336475282005-12-15T01:02:00.000-06:002005-12-15T01:02:00.000-06:00I know this is an old post but I must say somethin...I know this is an old post but I must say something here. I am an active LDS member, but my husband is against the church (he was a victim of evangelical apologetics) . I am a housewife and do not work. I am under no obligation to pay tithing. I hold callings , I am under no judgement. There are many LDS women in my situation.Amber https://www.blogger.com/profile/06696047194557533718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1134627928978706342005-12-15T00:25:00.000-06:002005-12-15T00:25:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Amber https://www.blogger.com/profile/06696047194557533718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133408976268173052005-11-30T21:49:00.000-06:002005-11-30T21:49:00.000-06:00The gospel of Jesus Christ is a living thing. It c...The gospel of Jesus Christ is a living thing. It changes and grows. If it did not, it would be dead. Ordinances change as well. You might say, oh the wording just changed, but, the ordinances change as well. Babtism is essential for our salvation. And that ordinance has changed with the times as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133256963584547662005-11-29T03:36:00.000-06:002005-11-29T03:36:00.000-06:00Anon @ 7:49 AMThe Gospel of Jesus Christ does no...Anon @ 7:49 AM<BR/><BR/>The <A HREF="http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/27/13-17#13" REL="nofollow"> Gospel of Jesus Christ </A> does not change. Temple ceremonies, i.e., wording of the temple, is subject to change. But the ordinances set, i.e., washing, anointing, celestial marriage do not change. You still need to get baptised, whether you say: <A HREF="http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/20/73#73" REL="nofollow"> having been comissioned of</A> or <A HREF="http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/11/25#25" REL="nofollow"> Having authority given me of</A>. The important bit is that you get baptised by the priesthood authority. Changing in the wording in the temple only testifies that revelation comes to the Church through his prophets.AlexGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09419111994859972886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133253503699578932005-11-29T02:38:00.000-06:002005-11-29T02:38:00.000-06:00Sarah:Thank you for the courtesy. What then, is th...Sarah:<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the courtesy. What then, is the issue? What I have written just shows that tithing is part of the whole living the commandments of God, not an <I>admission charge</I>. You have to see it within several commandments that are necessary to keep in order to enter the House of the Lord, i.e., having a testimony of God and Jesus Christ, living the law of chastity, etc. If you do not have a source of income, then you do not have to pay tithing and you can still enter the temple. So I do not buy your argument of an admission charge. <BR/><BR/>Temples are seen as holy for Latter Day Saints. The Lord stated in a revelation to Joseph Smith that <A HREF="http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/94/8-9#8" REL="nofollow"> no unclean thing should enter the temple</A>. The requirements to enter His House are not of men, but of God. His word is <A HREF="http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/4/12#12" REL="nofollow"> sharper than a two edged sword</A>. The Lord has set His standards, and they are not negotiable. You can enter any chappel and would be warmly welcomed, but the temple has certain rules that <B>anyone</B> that wants to enter <B>has to abide by</B>. These standards apply the same to you and me. <BR/><BR/>If you agree with me in my post, why then you have this opposition? Interestingly enough, I currently serve as a temple ordinance worker and have come to appreciate the temple even more. So if you agree with me, prepare yourself and enjoy the blessings of the temple. They are the crowning blessings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that we can obtain on Earth.AlexGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09419111994859972886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133228252392380152005-11-28T19:37:00.000-06:002005-11-28T19:37:00.000-06:00Tithing is nothing more than giving back to the Lo...Tithing is nothing more than giving back to the Lord what is His in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133217073828068012005-11-28T16:31:00.000-06:002005-11-28T16:31:00.000-06:00Really? And what is that point now?You were once ...Really? And what is that point <I>now</I>?<BR/><BR/>You were once complaining about so-called "admission charges" to the temple, which, it turns out, don't exist. Then you clarified that your complaint was really about privileged access to religious knowledge based on worthiness. But then, when it was pointed out that Jesus himself seemed to affirm the same thing, you rather huffily reverted to your mythical "admission charges" again. And now you seem to have shifted your ground once more.<BR/><BR/>So please clarify exactly what it is that you think is your point. About the only constant that I can see is that you disapprove of Mormonism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133211498858120372005-11-28T14:58:00.000-06:002005-11-28T14:58:00.000-06:00I couldn't have made my points better if I had wri...I couldn't have made my points better if I had written Alexg's 4:15 AM post myself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133195552929336662005-11-28T10:32:00.000-06:002005-11-28T10:32:00.000-06:00Funny, anonymous(7:49). False, of course, but (ve...Funny, anonymous(7:49). False, of course, but (very slightly) amusing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133192985473908692005-11-28T09:49:00.000-06:002005-11-28T09:49:00.000-06:00Sarah, Also keep in mind that the Gospel of Jesus ...Sarah, Also keep in mind that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is changing and adapting to the times we live in. For example, what your grandparents would have done in the temple is not the same as you would have done a few years ago. Your childeren that receive their ordinances now would do different things than you did. That is what makes the temple so beautiful, it is the eternal nature of it all. The temple as another poster stated is necessary for exaltation within the Celestial Kingdom. What we now learn there is what is needed for that exaltation. What others have learned there before is necessary for their exaltation. A few years down the road, I expect that things will change again as to reflect the times we live in, It is a living gospel. <BR/> Good luck on your search for these eternal unchanging truths.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133180102785280612005-11-28T06:15:00.000-06:002005-11-28T06:15:00.000-06:00Sarah:Tithing is just one of the commandments that...Sarah:<BR/><BR/>Tithing is just one of the commandments that you need to live in order to come to the temple. It does not matter how much you pay, even. If you do not live the law of chastity, i.e., have sexual intercourse with someone other than your husband (or wife in case of men) you cannot enter the temple irrespective of tithing. The most important principle of tithing is not the money per se. If you are a farmer, tithing could mean that you pay with fruit or livestock. You do not need specifically money to pay it. The greatest principle of tithing, in my opinion, is that you give freely and without grudge to the Lord. Is is a principle of faith, not money. A child that pays $1 of tithing out of his $10 of allowance makes just as big sacrifice as someone that has to pay $10,000 or has to give the best oranges for tithing. You see, in the end, is the faith that is being tried, not the amount of money. To me, tithing prepares us to the great sacrifice that we must make: surrendering our will to the Lord. <BR/><BR/>Not anyone can enter your house. I believe that you have some rules to allow people in, i.e., no salesman. Since Latter Day Saints consider the Temple as the House of the Lord, there are some restrictions that we impose on anyone that desires to enter. Are these requirement exclusive? Yes, but they have to be because we do not want the House of the Lord to be polluted. Plus, not everyone is prepared to receive the ordinances and make the covenants in the House of the Lord. Paul wrote to the Corinthians that he had fed them with milk and not meat, for they would not be able to bear it (<A HREF="http://scriptures.lds.org/1_cor/3/2#2" REL="nofollow"> 1 Corinthians 3:2</A>). Do you detect a sense of exclusion? Should we lash out on Paul for this? Therefore, you need to make sure that those that are going to go have the necessary maturity to understand what they are doing. <BR/><BR/>The Chuch is not lawfully obliged to give an income and expenditure report. If there was such a report, what then? There are a lot of organisations that do not have a financial report and are quite fine. Plus, given the recent examples of corporate America, financial reports are not that 'truthful'. I would imagine that if such reports came out, then the criticism would be centered on how much the LDS Church is spending on construction of temples and missionary program when that money could serve better in the humanitarian projects. <I>Mormons only spend X millions of USD in humanitarian aid</I>. So there is no win situation here. I do not know if the Early apostles gave a detail financial report when <A HREF="http://scriptures.lds.org/acts/4/32-35#32" REL="nofollow"> giving all posesions </A> was required to the members of the Church. Would you object the Christian religion for not giving an account of their expenditures? <BR/><BR/>To return back to the post, I believe that the scriptures heavily support the work in the temple and the ordinances that are perfomed thereon. But to me, there is something more. The temple (and the Church) are built in something more important that the Bible. There has been a lot of information regarding practices in temples in the Middle East period, and that information helps us see that Joseph Smith claims of Restoration are quite plausible. But the most important piece to me is that the Temple is based on Revelation, of a living God that has interest in his children and would provide everything that they need to know to go back to his presence and have all that He has to give to them. That is the most beautiful and sublime thing about the temple. Thanks Jeff for reminding us the love that a Father has for all his children.AlexGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09419111994859972886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133150882292353812005-11-27T22:08:00.000-06:002005-11-27T22:08:00.000-06:00sarah: "He says that his teachings are not his, b...<I>sarah: "He says that his teachings are not his, but God's. And he makes the point that ANY man who follows God's will shall know that the teachings are of God, not of a man of letters."</I><BR/><BR/>And we say that our teachings are not ours, but God's. And we make the point that ANY man or woman who follows God's will is eligible to enter the temple.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133149373213612282005-11-27T21:42:00.000-06:002005-11-27T21:42:00.000-06:00Begging your pardon, but Christ is a bit of an eli...Begging your pardon, but Christ is a bit of an elitist, if that's the correct word for it. He says here in Matthew 7:<BR/><BR/>13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:<BR/><BR/>14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.<BR/><BR/>Similarly, most of the people in the world aren't given entrance into the temple, simply due to the fact that most of the world doesn't conform to the standards required to enter into the temple. The word "profane" comes from the Latin, "pro fanum" which literally means, "outside of the temple." That which enters in must be clean by the Lord's standards, and it is He that has set those standards. Call it elitist or whatever you may, it is from the Lord and who can say aught of it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133141166181540272005-11-27T19:26:00.000-06:002005-11-27T19:26:00.000-06:00Whereas you plainly want to affix the title to Lat...Whereas you plainly want to affix the title to Latter-day Saints, I have no desire whatever to brand Jesus an "elitist." However, Jesus clearly thinks that some -- the more worthy -- are going to be blessed by God more than others. Indeed, it would be difficult to find a more elitist-sounding passage anywhere than Matthew 13:10-13:<BR/><BR/><B>And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?<BR/>He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.<BR/>For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.<BR/>Therefore speak I to them in parables.</B><BR/><BR/>You want to insist that there is no relationship between worthiness and access to important religious knowledge, and that the Mormons, who appear to disagree with you on this point, are arrogant money-hungry elitists. But Jesus appears to disagree with you, too. The fact that Jesus seems to attribute such a judgment to God himself, and not merely to mortal humans, is irrelevant to the fundamental logical structure of the issue.<BR/><BR/>That's not <I>my</I> problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133125411706227072005-11-27T15:03:00.000-06:002005-11-27T15:03:00.000-06:00Mr. Peterson:You said:"You seem to have a quarrel ...Mr. Peterson:<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>"You seem to have a quarrel with Jesus, and, assuming that he's right, with God. Don't try to evade it. Either boldly denounce Jesus, or repent."<BR/><BR/>Now you've moved from disingenuous to smarmy. This was a civil conversation.<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>"Apparently, Jesus believed that those who do God's will (which, surely, must mean something pretty equivalent to "being worthy") will, on the basis of their obedience, be granted access by God to fundamental religious knowledge."<BR/><BR/>Jesus is explaining to those who were amazed that he (Jesus) could teach without having "learned." <BR/><BR/>He says that his teachings are not his, but God's. And he makes the point that ANY man who follows God's will shall know that the teachings are of God, not of a man of letters. No worthiness interviews, admissions, or other tests required to try this experiment. Jesus lays bare God's will, it is for all to accept it and receive the blessings. The doctrine isn't shrouded in secrecy, or behind a veil, or subject to the guardianship of ordained preachers, or contingent upon a specific tithe.<BR/><BR/>Why do you feel so compelled to turn Christ into an elitist?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133067126259017282005-11-26T22:52:00.000-06:002005-11-26T22:52:00.000-06:00anonymous7:25: "I am sometimes saddened that they...<I>anonymous7:25: "I am sometimes saddened that they do not ask about . . . "</I><BR/><BR/><I>anonymous8:34: "I wish in my ward that the Bishop would not only ask about . . . </I><BR/><BR/>I'm sure that we all have mental lists of our neighbors' sins, flaws, deficiencies, and quirks, and that, at least occasionally, we think it would be wonderfully gratifying if our bishops would interrogate our neighbors about those shortcomings and, perhaps more deliciously still, call them to account for them. Of course, we would probably be much less enthusiastic if some of those <I>neighbors</I> dictated the questions and used them to home in on <I>our</I> particular defects.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133066298455083762005-11-26T22:38:00.000-06:002005-11-26T22:38:00.000-06:00sarah: "Your paraphrase of the scripture quoted e...<B><I>sarah: "Your paraphrase of the scripture quoted earlier is disingenuous. Jesus didn't charge admission for his sermons. The message, and the will of God, weren't hidden behind a curtain for a select few to view."</I></B><BR/><BR/>Actually, to be perfectly candid, your <I>response</I> seems disingenous to <I>me</I>, but I don't see how my comment was disingenuous at all.<BR/><BR/>You weren't simply speaking about money. You had generalized to a broader issue. This is what you said earlier:<BR/><BR/><I>"It's the concept of privileged knowledge in a religious institution, accessible only to those deemed worthy, that drives my questions."</I><BR/><BR/>You don't mention money or "admission charges" at all in your statement of your fundamental issue. Hence, I can't see that I was under any obligation to respond to the narrow topic of supposed "admission charges" since you were talking about the broader issue of worthiness as a requirement for obtaining important religious knowledge.<BR/><BR/>Thus, citing a verse from the New Testament in which Jesus seemingly offered privileged access to important religious knowledge -- what could be more important than knowing whether fundamental religious claims are <I>true</I>? -- to those who are worthy is directly on target.<BR/><BR/>And that's precisely what he does, as recorded in John 7:16-17: <B>"My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."</B><BR/><BR/>Apparently, Jesus believed that those who do God's will (which, surely, must mean something pretty equivalent to "being worthy") will, on the basis of their obedience, be granted access by God to fundamental religious knowledge. And, implicitly, those who fail to do God's will (who are not "worthy"), will not.<BR/><BR/>You seem to have a quarrel with Jesus, and, assuming that he's right, with God. Don't try to evade it. Either boldly denounce Jesus, or repent.<BR/> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133066099638932802005-11-26T22:34:00.000-06:002005-11-26T22:34:00.000-06:00I wish in my ward that the Bishop would not only a...I wish in my ward that the Bishop would not only ask about the Don'ts in the WOW but also the Dos. We have too many people that do not follow the Dos and are so unhealthy beacause of it. It is embarrasing to have so many over weight members. We should be an example to others of how to live. Over eating and expanding waistlines are the norm where I live in Utah.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133061927867990222005-11-26T21:25:00.000-06:002005-11-26T21:25:00.000-06:00Sarah is absolutely right. She has a very clear p...Sarah is absolutely right. She has a very clear picture of the situation. It is a financial committment to tithe. 10% off the top. It must be important for it to be one of the top questions in the Temple recommend interview. I am sometimes saddened that they do not ask about gossip in the interview.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133052072880551962005-11-26T18:41:00.000-06:002005-11-26T18:41:00.000-06:00Just one more nit for the members here.Making the ...Just one more nit for the members here.<BR/><BR/>Making the temple covenants are not necessary for salvation in the Celestial kingdom. The Lord's Atonement, plus keeping one's <I>baptismal</I> covenants allows one entrance into the celestial kingdom. (And tithing could be considered a baptismal covenant since it is in the baptismal interview.)<BR/><BR/>The temple covenants are specific to <I>exaltation</I> in the Celestial kingdom.<BR/><BR/>I don't say this to denigrate anything about the Temple, but many people seem to forget the three divisions within the Celestial Kingdom. The scriptures are quite clear that the Atonement, the Lord's grace, and keeping one's <I>baptismal covenants</I> opens the door to the Celestial kingdom for that person.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes we forget that exaltation in the Celestial kingdom and salvation in the Celestial kingdom are not synonymous.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133051357506426242005-11-26T18:29:00.000-06:002005-11-26T18:29:00.000-06:00Anon at 1:23, Although individual voluntary effort...Anon at 1:23, Although individual voluntary efforts and personal spending on charity, missionary meals, etc, is not tracked, what comes into the church with the official donation slips in the grey envelopes that we give to our local bishoric is tracked to the penny.<BR/><BR/>Also, every check that is written by the church is tracked to the penny, whether the end recipient is getting the money or receiving goods purchased with the money. We probably can't put a dollar value on the can of green beans that the Widow Jones gets, due to all the donated hours that go into it, but all the monetary outlays that go into the church's welfare system are tabulated in the aggregate. That would be demanded by sound accounting principles.<BR/><BR/>True, if you add in the value of all the donated hours in disaster relief, welfare farm work, cannery work, bishop storehouse work, that actual final figure is unknown.<BR/><BR/>But let's not be disingenuous about there not being raw dollar figures floating around the Presiding Bishopric's office and being reported to the Committee on the Disposition of the Tithes.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133051243857377332005-11-26T18:27:00.000-06:002005-11-26T18:27:00.000-06:00We had this exact same conversation/argument on an...We had this exact same conversation/argument on another thread a while back. Same game, different day. <BR/><BR/>When are we going to stop responding to the trolls? The tone of their questions indicates they are not interested in learning what we do and believe, and why. They have already made up their minds.<BR/><BR/>They are going to take whatever we say and twist it into something that sounds bad, just like the pharisees made Jesus sound bad according to Mosaic law. (There's a web page somewhere that uses the Old Testament to "prove" that Jesus was a heretic.)<BR/><BR/>And if you judge the LDS church based on the traditions and standards of modern Protestant churches, we're going to sound just as bad. <BR/><BR/>There's just no point in arguing with the mockers. Such goading doesn't merit a response. The accusations have been addressed many times before, so if they merit anything, a link to where the answers are already online would seem sufficient.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133046013740780552005-11-26T17:00:00.000-06:002005-11-26T17:00:00.000-06:00Sarah:1) transparency of HOW the money is spent - ...Sarah:<BR/><BR/>1) transparency of HOW the money is spent - a moral obligation on behalf of the church that it shouldn't shirk<BR/><BR/>Would you please expound on how this is a moral obligation? Additionally, when I see "massive humanitarian aid" being dispersed throughout the world, that is a very effective form of transperancy, far more so than cold numbers. <BR/><BR/>As to the "admission" requirement, your choice of words is unfortunate. The word reeks of capitalism, as if we were going to a sporting event. If indeed entrance into the temple was based solely on money, you might be on to something. But it's based on far more than that. Tithing is simply a part of a larger picture of obedience. An inactive member who pays tithing, an active member who does not pay tithing, and an active member who pays tithing, who goes to church but does not have faith in Christ's atonement are all equally ill-prepared to attend the temple. There have been individuals who pay a full tithing on a regular basis who are not allowed to the temple. This undue emphasis on tithing distorts the picture of temple worship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133040198418017422005-11-26T15:23:00.000-06:002005-11-26T15:23:00.000-06:00I’m usually a lurker here, but I want to comment o...I’m usually a lurker here, but I want to comment on something…<BR/><BR/>Sarah's comments confuse me. On one hand she argues that a 10% tithe paying for access to God's temple is wrong because money shouldn't matter. On the other hand she wants a dollar value associated with the humanitarian contributions from the church - as if the dollar value is what's important. In reality, the church probably can't put a dollar figure on the combined contributions of the church as a whole, because it would be nearly impossible for the church to equate a dollar amount to the actions of every member. Just about every member I know contributes in some way - either through tithe, fast offerings, feeding the missionaries once a month or more, or just plain service.<BR/><BR/>Sarah, either the money is important or it is not. You can't have it both ways depending on the argument. <BR/><BR/>Great debate going here! I enjoy reading the points of both sides.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1133034439607922212005-11-26T13:47:00.000-06:002005-11-26T13:47:00.000-06:00Matt. 23:23 - Christ did not reject the principle ...Matt. 23:23 - Christ did not reject the principle of tithing. <BR/><BR/>There is no amount of money required to gain knowledge of the temple. Those with Temple recommends can go, whether they paid nothing or millions of dollars. For those with no income, tithing = 0. It's not about cash flow!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.com