tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post113733679690666216..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Where did Joseph learn about the Arabian Peninsula?Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1138228136661211312006-01-25T16:28:00.000-06:002006-01-25T16:28:00.000-06:00Am I to interpret your question on why I'm discuss...Am I to interpret your question on why I'm discussing this as a statement that you are discouraging open discourse? Am I supposed to suspend my disbelief only when in doing so it reinforces the church? <BR/><BR/>Hardly. One can say whatever s/he likes. However, discussing wild counterfactuals, however amusing/stimulating they may be, are going to lead to fantastical conclusions and red herrings. If we only hold up the value of "open discourse" to a discussion, we are severely limiting the value of our conclusions. For example, we could freely discuss the effects of mid-19th Laotian literary systems on Joseph Smith, the legacy of 20th century Congolese oral tradition on David O. McKay or the influence of modern Mormonism on Ugandan dictator Il Amin Dada, all of which were contemporaries of one another, none of which appear to be connected (from known evidence)<BR/><BR/>Say what you like. Just know that others will call for an realistic accounting of your reasoning.<BR/><BR/>Doing so makes me feel like I have double standards. <BR/><BR/>I'm not asking anyone to be dishonest about their belief or disbelief, nor would I ask anyone to do so. That's not what the man with the sick child told Jesus anyway ("help thou mine unbelief"). If anyone had reason to sugarcoat his feelings, it was him. He was faithfully skeptical (a beautiful paradox if you ask me), and he was blessed for it.<BR/><BR/>If you don't believe something, be honest about it. At least in my book, you're better off than the "smooth-faced hypocrites" who supposedly proclaim the faith but talk schmak about the prophets when it's fashionable (I saw that happen today, so I still feel a little residual heat).<BR/><BR/>There are a lot more implausible things than this to discuss in the realm of LDS beliefs.<BR/><BR/>And Christian beliefs too for that matter...<BR/><BR/>Perhaps some see it that way. I admit there are certain elements that must be left to the realm of faith (the Resurrection, turning water to wine, multiplying bread, etc.). <BR/><BR/>In any case, I'm simply asking that we continue discussion of the B.O.M. evidences, all the while staying strictly tethered to the pole of evidence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1138223277232137442006-01-25T15:07:00.000-06:002006-01-25T15:07:00.000-06:00"Why even discuss something so patently implausibl..."Why even discuss something so patently implausible?"<BR/><BR/>There are a lot more implausible things than this to discuss in the realm of LDS beliefs. I was just trying to respond to the poster's question.<BR/><BR/>Am I to interpret your question on why I'm discussing this as a statement that you are discouraging open discourse? Am I supposed to suspend my disbelief only when in doing so it reinforces the church? Doing so makes me feel like I have double standards.Jeff Milnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877588011535047766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1137895221205928832006-01-21T20:00:00.000-06:002006-01-21T20:00:00.000-06:00oops...that should be "weren't we?" Then again, i...oops...that should be "weren't we?" Then again, if I'm having a bout of schizophrenia right now...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1137874621818075122006-01-21T14:17:00.000-06:002006-01-21T14:17:00.000-06:00Jeff,It seems to me that your conclusion comes dow...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that your conclusion comes down to a logical abstraction, far removed from the realities of this historical inquiry. It was "possible" for me to have met Mikhail Gorbachev while the Berlin Wall was coming down: both he and I were alive, weren't I? Similar possibilities: my Mom visiting with North Vietnamese machine gunners (she was 17-18 at the time, perfect age for revolutionaries); BYU becoming a hotbed for right-wing terrorists (we have a few crazies here, like anywhere). All of these events were chronologically possible, but the real chances of these occuring are so far removed from real-world circumstances that their actuality borders on the bizarre. Why even discuss something so patently implausible? <BR/><BR/>Granted, Joseph's case isnt' QUITE as extreme as the above and Jeff may have breached the code of logical jargon; however, that breach is far closer to Joseph's lived experience than the suggestion that there was a "possible" way, however infinitessimal its existence was. To argue about wild possibilities that "could have happened," may be good practice for logicians, but it makes for sub-par historical scholarship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1137872240743442682006-01-21T13:37:00.000-06:002006-01-21T13:37:00.000-06:00"Why would it be any more logical to believe he re..."Why would it be any more logical to believe he read about it?"<BR/><BR/>I shouldn't have implied that I believed he did read about it. I actually don't believe that he did. However, unless you hold a very loose definition for the word "logical" then I think it's pretty obvious.<BR/><BR/>My point was (and still is) that it is a fallacy to argue that "there is <B>no possible way</B> for Joseph to have had access to them".<BR/><BR/>They existed at the time, therefore it is possible he found the information from them. That's why it's more logical.Jeff Milnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877588011535047766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1137803471441930142006-01-20T18:31:00.000-06:002006-01-20T18:31:00.000-06:00I would say that it is perfectly logical, given th...I would say that it is perfectly logical, given the kinds of resources available to Joseph. Check the catalog of the Palmyra library or even more importantly, the Harmony library (as Jeff points out on the site). Arabia was considered (and still is believed by many) to be a barren waste. Furthermore, we need not belabor the point of JOseph's lack of bookishness, especially in European maps of Arabia (I consider myself to be an aggressive student of things Mormon, and I don't even look up such things when I have a university library at my disposal). <BR/><BR/>Furthermore, Harmony's library was even less thorough than Palmyra's, the latter of which left much to be desired. All the factors are working against Joseph knowing about Arabia. Lucky guess? (the odds are laughable let alone logical). <BR/><BR/>Of all the places Joseph could have chosen to place a Bountiful, why take such a long shot with Arabia? Why not stick with areas in which he was familiar? It was not logical for Joseph to even choose Arabia? Why would it be any more logical to believe he read about it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1137797289196823832006-01-20T16:48:00.000-06:002006-01-20T16:48:00.000-06:00This is an interesting question Jeff.Perhaps it wo...This is an interesting question Jeff.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps it would help if you wouldn't mind posting the scriptural references you are referring to, "a burial place called Nahom, and a fertile and inhabitable spot called Bountiful due east of Nahom". I'm having a bit of trouble connecting the dots.<BR/><BR/>So what you're saying is that there is an actual burial ground called Nehhem in the Arabian Peninsula and as your Evidence for the Book of Mormon page points out, "It is true that the name 'Nehhem' or 'Nehem' appear on a couple of maps of Arabia produced in Europe before the Book of Mormon was published".<BR/><BR/>So what I want to know is how you can be so confident in saying, "These places and the NHM name could not possibly have been known to Joseph Smith".<BR/><BR/>It doesn't seem like a very logical thing to say that although maps did exist at the time that there is no possible way for Joseph to have had access to them.<BR/><BR/>Book of Mormon authentic or not, this argument is a fallacy.Jeff Milnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11877588011535047766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1137525199956504232006-01-17T13:13:00.000-06:002006-01-17T13:13:00.000-06:00One more Einstein quote:There are two ways to live...One more Einstein quote:<BR/><BR/>There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.<BR/>Quoted in Des MacHale, Wisdom (London, 2002).<BR/><BR/>These come from here:<BR/><A HREF="http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Quotations/Einstein.html" REL="nofollow">http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Quotations/Einstein.html</A>Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1137525075528601182006-01-17T13:11:00.000-06:002006-01-17T13:11:00.000-06:00BYU-AE has pointed out a few times that many BoM a...BYU-AE has pointed out a few times that many BoM assertions and apologetic postulates (that we put forth as possible explanations of BoM plausibility) are "very unlikely."<BR/><BR/>I just ran across this quote by Einstein that seems appropriate:<BR/><BR/>"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."<BR/>Quoted in L Infeld Quest, 1942.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1137519584960679862006-01-17T11:39:00.000-06:002006-01-17T11:39:00.000-06:00Mormanity, I like your comment at the end of this ...Mormanity, I like your comment at the end of this post. "These points don't make the BOM true". It is ofcourse our faith that allows us to know with a surity. There are plenty of anti's that won't believe anything unless it is plopped right down in their laps and they can tagibly feel proof. As for me and my family, faith is sufficient proof.qhunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05653336035475164633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1137342716147074002006-01-15T10:31:00.000-06:002006-01-15T10:31:00.000-06:00Thank you for mentioning theses evidences. I bega...Thank you for mentioning theses evidences. I began with an intellectual testimony 23 years ago which developed into a spiritual one. The evidences only confirm what we as faithful latter day saints have know through the spirit. Empirical evidence for our religion will never convince the true sceptic but it does bolster the strength of the testimonies of those who are sincerely searching.<BR/><BR/>By continually mentioning these new found evidences we push this knowledge into the main stream. Sooner or later the sceptics and anti-s will have to address this issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com