tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post1222108218183459223..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Low Standards: The Key to Happiness??Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1497148985464799862011-11-09T13:18:59.905-06:002011-11-09T13:18:59.905-06:00Cindy, you said
What Gods word says said about pr...Cindy, you said<br /><br /><i>What Gods word says said about prophets now that Christ fulfills the role of our prophet is that the role of prophecy has changed:</i><br /><br />I'm afraid I am not familiar with any passages in the Bible that teach that the role of prophecy has changed.<br /><br />You continued:<br /><br /><i>Biblical Christianity believes that the old testament prophets all pointed to the coming of Christ...</i><br /><br />to which I certainly agree.<br /><br /><i>...and with His coming the nature of the gift of prophecy was changed forever.</i><br /><br />When? Where? This is the part I'm having problems with.<br /><br /><i>God's word contains all the revelation we need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3)</i> The KJV actually says <i>According as his <b>divine power</b> hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:</i>... divine power here referring probably to the priesthood, or at least the Holy Ghost.<br /><br /><i>The Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword (Hebrews 4:12),</i> <br /><br />Yes, I agree.<br /><br /><i>so the gift of prophecy transitioned from primarily being a declaration of new revelation from God, to primarily (or exclusively) being a declaration of what God has already revealed, as recorded in His Word.</i><br /><br />Again, I don't see where this comes from.<br /><br /><i>And all prophecy must be held up in the light of the truth of the bible:</i><br /><br />Ok, I could agree with that part, as far as it goes. Now comes the most interesting part:<br /><br /><i>Without having an objective source of truth that all can point to as the truth, won't all of our personal interpretations put us at risk of the many false spirits that Christ (Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world 1 john 4:1)and Joseph Smith (Every spirit, or vision, or singing, is not of God, History of the church) spoke of?</i><br /><br />What do you claim as "an objective source of truth that all can point to as the truth"? The Bible? Do <i>all</i> point to it as the truth? Christianity is a minor religion in the world scene, and even among those who claim it as a belief there is sharp division. Wouldn't it be great to have another place to go that would confirm the "objective truths" of the Bible? <br /><br />The objective source of all truth is Jesus Christ. One of the divinely inspired witnesses to that truth is the Bible. Are you familiar with what we call the "law of witnesses?" It is mentioned a couple of times in the NT: 2 Corinthians 13:1, and Matt 18:16. For us it simply means that God's Word will be established by more than one source (person or scriptural volume). It is one reason why we are so thankful to have access to <i>The Book of Mormon, <b>Another</b> Testament of Jesus Christ.</i>bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-59267669000063598212011-11-09T12:07:23.141-06:002011-11-09T12:07:23.141-06:00Cindy,
Those who revere biblical teachings should...Cindy,<br /><br />Those who revere biblical teachings should recognize the importance of repentance and baptism as they relate to forgiveness (remittance) of sin:<br /><br /><i>John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.</i> ~Mark 1:4<br /><br /><i>And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins</i> ~Luke 3:3<br /><br /><i>And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.</i> ~Luke 24:47<br /><br /><i>Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.</i> ~Acts 2:38<br /><br />As far as "completing the repentance process," I know of no one who ever has while still in this life. Neither has anyone that I know of been able to fulfill the commandment to "be perfect" (Matt 5:48) while yet in this life - and I have no first-hand knowledge of any in the hereafter either.. :) These are lofty ideals to be sure, but what other than perfection could the Lord command and still be God?<br /><br />And isn't it interesting that the only One who didn't need repentance was baptized anyway, "to fulfill all righteousness" (Matt 3:15), I take that to mean that if Christ hadn't been baptized there would have been something lacking, and His offering would not have been perfect. Since He also commanded us to "follow Him," it seems obvious that we are to do the same things He did, as far as lies within our power to do so.<br /><br />Our merciful God knows our situations and circumstances. More importantly, He knows the intent of our hearts. We are not perfect beings, and cannot expect to attain perfection as we are. So He gives us some things we <i>can</i> do in order to help us along the path to <i>eventually</i> obtaining it.<br /><br />For those things we cannot do, the Atonement is made available to make up the difference.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-11188996025023894022011-11-08T21:29:45.689-06:002011-11-08T21:29:45.689-06:00Dear bearyb,
What Gods word says said about proph...Dear bearyb,<br /><br />What Gods word says said about prophets now that Christ fulfills the role of our prophet is that the role of prophecy has changed:<br /><br />Biblical Christianity believes that the old testament prophets all pointed to the coming of Christ and with His coming the nature of the gift of prophecy was changed forever. God's word contains all the revelation we need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). The Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword (Hebrews 4:12), so the gift of prophecy transitioned from primarily being a declaration of new revelation from God, to primarily (or exclusively) being a declaration of what God has already revealed, as recorded in His Word.<br /><br />tAnd all prophecy must be held up in the light of the trith of the bible: <br /><br />Without having an objective source of truth that all can point to as the truth, won't all of our personal interpretations put us at risk of the many false spirits that Christ (Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world 1 john 4:1)and Joseph Smith (Every spirit, or vision, or singing, is not of God, History of the church) spoke of?Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-70448947045841724542011-11-08T21:19:52.043-06:002011-11-08T21:19:52.043-06:00Dear bearby,
You state that Christ's sacrific...Dear bearby,<br /><br />You state that Christ's sacrifice offers you forgiveness from your sins, but doesn't the church teach that you are responsible for your own sins? Aren't you required to complete the repentance process, which includes forsaking your sin and obeying the commandments, in order for you to have forgiveness from Christ for your sins? If you are not given any command that you can't keep, doesn't it follow that "all you can do" would mean keeping all of the commandments? Is that what you have to do to be forgiven?Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73545348937165795312011-11-07T16:58:47.079-06:002011-11-07T16:58:47.079-06:00After some reflection about these posts, I'm s...After some reflection about these posts, I'm still not sure why there is such an ongoing debate about "faith and works" as they pertain to salvation. There is so much more to consider! Charity is one thing that is held to be in even higher regard than faith. Elsewhere the Lord says, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Our own forgiveness of others has place for consideration, as we will be forgiven likewise (or not, as the case may be). Can someone tell me what all the fuss is about, why the concentration on these two facets of scripture, please?bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-91483560091838899072011-11-07T13:28:52.521-06:002011-11-07T13:28:52.521-06:00In response to a few points that Cindy brings up:
...In response to a few points that Cindy brings up:<br /><br /><i>So in your earlier posting when you said "Salvation is a gift we can't earn but must receive. And receiving something does require some action" were you saying that eternal life is the gift that we must perform some action to receive? So to you does faith in Christ mean faith in His plan for you to become a god and be able to live with the father?</i><br /><br />Not exactly. To me, faith in Christ means the belief and hope that He can and will do what He says He can and will do, provided I do what He has asked me to do. I particularly like the "Parable of the Bicycle" that is told by Stephen E. Robinson in his book, <i>Believing Christ.</i> In it he eloquently explains our dilemma, and how the Savior's infinite sacrifice can make up the difference needed for us to be justified as pertaining to eternal laws, after we have done all we can (imperfectly) do.<br /><br /><i>If then, your "work" of response in faith is to repent of your sins, what are you receiving from Christ?<br /><br />I mean, you already have immortality, right?<br /><br />And forgiveness is attained through repentance, right?<br /><br />"Repentance is the way provided for us to become free from our sins and receive forgiveness for them." (gospel principles)<br /><br />So what does Christ offer you? What can you receive from Him?</i><br /><br />Forgiveness. I think that has already been answered.<br /><br /><i>You are working toward ungodliness through obedience to the commandments so that you can comfortably be with God, as you described.</i><br /><br />Have you done a topical scriptural study on the importance of obedience? Doing so might be enlightening. I would particularly like to hear your explanation of how obeying God's commandments (which is what I aspire to) leads to ungodliness.<br /><br />As for me, godhood is a very unfathomable, extremely distant (though biblical) possibility. I think I would be doing well not to be denied entrance to His presence at all.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15648043980394944812011-11-07T12:05:20.936-06:002011-11-07T12:05:20.936-06:00Cindy,
You re-posted one of my questions as if t...Cindy, <br /><br />You re-posted one of my questions as if to answer it - "Why wouldn't it continue to be important now to have such a man of God, a prophet, who can claim the same "eyewitness of His majesty?" - but all you said was the following:<br /><br /><i>I would answer with the words of Christ:<br /><br />"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." Matt 24:11</i><br /><br />Does this mean you consider all who claim to be prophets to be false ones?<br /><br />I most certainly agree with what it says in Matt 24, and we can all point to several examples of those who have led many astray, but does that mean that we can never have any "real" prophets anymore? And in any case, my question was asking why it wouldn't continue to be relevant and important to have prophets now, in our day, to "stir us up to remembrance" and "cry repentance," as they have always done in the past when they have been on the earth. Do you not at least acknowledge that such a representative of the Lord would be beneficial?bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-79422966923026088072011-11-07T11:52:29.814-06:002011-11-07T11:52:29.814-06:00Papa D said:
Fwiw, I see the purpose of scripture...Papa D said:<br /><br /><i>Fwiw, I see the purpose of scripture as creating a record of humanity's interaction with God.<br /><br />I think limiting the ability to have and record that interaction to one group of people is perhaps the greatest arrogance and pride that exists within religions.</i><br /><br />Isn't it interesting that the Lord said He had "other sheep" that He needed to bring - meaning that the people He was addressing at each instance were not the <i>only</i> recipients of His word. He says it in John 10:16, in 3 Nephi 15:17, and in D&C 10:59-60. The most interesting instance to me is the one found in 3 Nephi 16:1: <i>And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.</i><br /><br />It is evident that the Lord has dealings with more than one people. I hope all of them have recorded such dealings so that others can read and profit thereby.<br /><br />Part of the Abrahamic Covenant is that <i>all nations</i> would be blessed through his (Abraham's) lineage. I think that pretty much covers the entire world.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60800281052892220792011-11-07T11:23:03.223-06:002011-11-07T11:23:03.223-06:00Cindy,
My previous post was mainly in response to...Cindy,<br /><br />My previous post was mainly in response to your previous question:<br /><br /><i>If the first part of the atonement secures immortality to one of the heavens for everyone whether they choose it or not, why is faith in Christ necessary? What choice do we have in receiving it?</i><br /><br />I was only pointing out that all of us did exercise our agency in choosing the path (following Christ) that would lead to that end - immortality. It is noteworthy to point out that one third of the hosts of heaven chose the other way.<br /><br />You seem to represent my comment as saying that faith in Christ is something that "happened," as though it was-is a one-time occurrence. I actually said that the pre-mortal realm is where we <i>first</i> exercised faith in Christ. Choosing the path of faith is an ongoing enterprise, and should continue throughout this life. I can't find anywhere in the scriptures where Christ says that those who "believed" in Him would be saved. His words always seem to refer to an active, present, involved discipleship, not to some past one. <br /><br />"Endure to the end" is a phrase often referred to in our teachings. I can only speculate that in the pre-mortal realm we did just that with our faith in Christ up until our birth (that it wasn't just a one-time declaration), and we are admonished to do the same in this life up until our death.<br /><br />As far as what we can receive from Christ, it is the gift of forgiveness and justification.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21872301236047748382011-11-07T07:28:26.463-06:002011-11-07T07:28:26.463-06:00Dear bearyb,
Thanks for the clarification. So fa...Dear bearyb,<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification. So faith in Christ to you happened in the pre-mortal existence when you chose to follow Christ's plan rather than lucifers, right? <br /><br />So in your earlier posting when you said "Salvation is a gift we can't earn but must receive. And receiving something does require some action" were you saying that eternal life is the gift that we must perform some action to receive? So to you does faith in Christ mean faith in His plan for you to become a god and be able to live with the father?<br /><br />If then, your "work" of response in faith is to repent of your sins, what are you receiving from Christ? <br /><br />I mean, you already have immortality, right? <br /><br />You are working toward ungodliness through obedience to the commandments so that you can comfortably be with God, as you described. <br /><br />And forgiveness is attained through repentance, right?<br /><br />"Repentance is the way provided for us to become free from our sins and receive forgiveness for them." (gospel principles)<br /><br /><br />So what does Christ offer you? What can you receive from Him?Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81212855982090572282011-11-07T00:26:00.588-06:002011-11-07T00:26:00.588-06:00Cindy,
You seem enough of a student of LDS theolo...Cindy,<br /><br />You seem enough of a student of LDS theology to know of our belief in a pre-mortal existence. It was there that we understand that we first exercised faith in Christ. We exercised our agency in deciding whether to follow Him, or the alternate plan proposed by Lucifer. In choosing to follow Christ at that time, we 'kept our first estate' and qualified not only for mortality, but also for immortality and a degree of reward after this life. That was made possible without further conditions by Christ's Atonement. We do understand a distinction between 'immortality' and 'Eternal Life.' To say that being saved from mortal death through resurrection is not a choice we can make is only to say that it is a choice we ALREADY made. Its being in the irretrievable past makes it unconditional in our present circumstance. It's a done deal - a free gift given to all who find themselves in mortality. <br /><br />Perhaps it's not the definition of salvation that is so difficult to agree on, but rather the definition of Eternal Life.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39635812573612196502011-11-06T22:35:52.514-06:002011-11-06T22:35:52.514-06:00Dear bearyb,
You ask, "why wouldn't it c...Dear bearyb,<br /><br />You ask, "why wouldn't it continue to be important now to have such a man of God, a prophet, who can claim the same "eyewitness of His majesty""<br /><br />I would answer with the words of Christ:<br /><br />"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." Matt 24:11<br /><br />You speak of individuals receiving the fulness, and state that D&C clarifies your belief, but verse 20 says, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." <br /><br />Without having an objective source of truth that all can point to as the truth, won't all of our personal interpretations put us at risk of the many false spirits that Christ (Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world 1 john 4:1)and Joseph Smith (Every spirit, or vision, or singing, is not of God, History of the church) spoke of? <br /><br />Biblical Christianity believes that the old testament prophets all pointed to the coming of Christ and with His coming the nature of the gift of prophecy was changed forever. God's word contains all the revelation we need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). The Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword (Hebrews 4:12), so the gift of prophecy transitioned from primarily being a declaration of new revelation from God, to primarily (or exclusively) being a declaration of what God has already revealed, as recorded in His Word.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-6460547638792076462011-11-06T22:06:54.813-06:002011-11-06T22:06:54.813-06:00Dear bearyb,
Perhaps we are speaking of salvation...Dear bearyb,<br /><br />Perhaps we are speaking of salvation differently. Jesus describes it as the difference between eternal life and eternal death:<br /><br />"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" Matt 25:46<br /><br />"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 6:23<br /><br />What is it to you? lds.org gives this definition:<br /><br />"All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the fall of Adam. Hence, all shall rise from the dead with immortal bodies, because of Jesus’ atonement...The atonement is conditional, however, so far as each person’s individual sins are concerned, and touches every one to the degree that he has faith in Jesus Christ, repents of his sins, and obeys the gospel." <br /><br />If the first part of the atonement secures immortality to one of the heavens for everyone whether they choose it or not, why is faith in Christ necessary? What choice do we have in receiving it?<br /><br />And if the second part is dependent on our obedience to the gospel and completion of the repentance process (including obeying all commandments and forsaking all sin) in order to gain forgiveness what are we <b>receiving</b> from Christ?Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89161273089285303462011-10-26T23:09:52.083-05:002011-10-26T23:09:52.083-05:00Cindy said: "Truly "When the Spirit of t...Cindy said: "Truly "When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth." but that truth will have to be in line with what was given in the Bible."<br /><br />And concerning Jeff's comments about 2 Peter 1: "Can you tell me how you come to this understanding from this chapter? (I'm really asking...I don't see how you come to those conclusions, and I wonder...)"<br /><br />I will not speak for Jeff, but the understanding comes not solely from this chapter, but through revelation and the "Spirit of truth" that you spoke of, and much of it as recorded by Joseph Smith.<br /><br />For example, verse 4 where it talks about being "partakers of the divine nature" is referenced to D&C 93: 27&28 where we are given to understand the process by which we may "receive a fulness" until we can "know all things." And, to us, that is "in line with what is given in the Bible" in 2 Peter 1.<br /><br />Jeff's comment alluded to this and many more doctrines that we believe are taught in the Bible (which we believe contains a fullness of the gospel), but that, ironically, are the very ones that are often pointed out to us by others as being "un-biblical."<br /><br />And since we are on that chapter, have you noticed the importance Peter places on prophecy here, and how important he thought it was to "stir [them] up by putting [them] in remembrance"? That has been the role of every prophet since Adam - to stir the people up to remembrance.<br /><br />If it was so important to do so then, even as recently as the Lord's earthly ministry had been at that time, why wouldn't it continue to be important now to have such a man of God, a prophet, who can claim the same "eyewitness of His majesty" (v. 16) to do the same for us at this time?<br /><br />The written scriptures are very important, to be sure, because of what they can teach us and how they can prepare us. But alone they are apparently insufficient for the kind of direction and guidance God has in store for those who really want to receive "all that He has." Living prophets have always been indispensable to His purposes. Where does it say in the Bible that such things should be done away?<br /><br />Nor do we believe that even with all our "extra-biblical" scriptural cannon that we are finished receiving the word of the Lord. Recorded in the Book of Mormon are several instances where words were spoken that could not (and/or were commanded not to) be written. What were those words all about? What was contained in the sealed portion of the plates Joseph Smith was not allowed to open? It has been promised that all things shall be revealed in due time.<br /><br />Just as there were greater things Christ taught that superseded the Law of Moses, there must be greater things still unrevealed that we are simply not ready to receive yet.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12154157032990467492011-10-26T19:56:23.580-05:002011-10-26T19:56:23.580-05:00The last post on this discussion is now almost 2 m...The last post on this discussion is now almost 2 months old, so sorry about the late comment. Jackg brings up an important point about differences in terminology. It is certainly likely that those differences help fuel what has been and continues to be an unending discussion (here and elsewhere) about the relative merits of works and faith concerning our salvation.<br /><br />That salvation is a gift is scriptural, and I believe it. Whether it can be 'earned' or not seems to be a sticking point. Cindy says we can't earn it. Statements by some of the LDS leaders certainly seem to suggest we can and must earn it.<br /><br />How about this? Salvation is a gift we can't earn but must receive. And receiving something does require some action.<br /><br />As for the 'rewards' we may receive for our works, perhaps that is where all the mansions come into play that have been prepared for us (up to and including exaltation). Apparently, salvation is not equal for everyone across the board. That is to say that not all will have an equal reward. There is good reason for this. Heaven will not be heaven if you are not 100% comfortable with your surroundings. You will not be comfortable with the likes of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob - or Christ - if you have not learned, or are not inclined to learn, how to live as they do, or to be obedient to the same laws that they are. Probably the most important consideration in the next life will be not what we have done necessarily, but what we have become with the circumstances we were given.<br /><br />Our 'works' in this life are the result of how we use our agency, each choice building on the ones before, to our improvement or our detriment. So the discussion of salvation by works or faith will rage on, but unto what salvation will we be saved?<br /><br />In the LDS Church we learn that the first principle of the gospel is faith. Until that happens, nothing else can even be considered. Works will follow as a natural result of sincere faith. Neither means anything without the other, so why do we even have to go round and round about it? The first work that comes to mind is repentance. Why or how would anyone who accepts Christ as their Savior, and recognizes their own weakness and fallibility and their absolute need of His saving grace neglect such an important step? This is one way that we show Him that we receive and acknowledge His gift of forgiveness. A gift not received cannot be given.<br /><br />And just because some conditions may be placed on the receiving of a gift makes it no less a gift. How many trust funds have you heard of that can only be accessed by the beneficiaries once they reach a certain age? How many theater or movie tickets are gifted to people with the understanding that they have a time limit within which they must be redeemed? Do these conditions lessen the gifts?<br /><br />The gift of salvation is given freely to all who will receive it. But there are ways to show that we receive it, and God will not force anyone either way.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76569878744445762242011-09-11T13:33:39.428-05:002011-09-11T13:33:39.428-05:00Jeff,
It's not earned. Jack, please quit putt...Jeff,<br /><br /><i>It's not earned. Jack, please quit putting that spin on our doctrine. That's not what I believe at all.</i><br /><br />Here are a couple of many writings from the leaders of the church that make it hard not to draw the conclusion that salvation within the LDS church is earned.<br /><br />“By obedience to God’s commandments, we can qualify for that ‘house’ spoken of by Jesus" Thomas Monson<br />“They [Mormon missionaries] made clear distinction between general salvation or resurrection from the grave and individual salvation or exaltation earned by a man through his compliance with the laws of God." Joseph Smith<br />“In reality, this doctrine means that we earn and must earn what we get. Salvation must be earned." John Widsoe<br />“Even that grace of God promised in the scriptures comes only ‘after<br />all we can do.’” Boyd K PackerCindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-5851094346078537182011-09-10T12:36:04.097-05:002011-09-10T12:36:04.097-05:00Thanks Jack for answering and from this I can see ...Thanks Jack for answering and from this I can see your point. I am on the side of believing that the process of the atonement started in Gethsemane and finished on the cross. I agree that death was necessary. There was a physical suffereing for our sins both on the cross and in Gethsemane. Since the apostles slept through the garden portion, it must be significant if it is included in the Bible. Who saw it to give us the report?Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76469689738885444562011-09-06T17:06:53.456-05:002011-09-06T17:06:53.456-05:00Hi Rich,
One may suggest that the Garden of Geths...Hi Rich,<br /><br />One may suggest that the Garden of Gethsemane was where the atonement for man began. I don't begrudge anyone that perspective. But, and it's a big but, our sins were paid for on the cross--not in the Garden. Death was necessary for the sacrificial atonement, and that happened on the cross.<br /><br />Peace...jackgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88200089615468137922011-09-01T05:11:30.075-05:002011-09-01T05:11:30.075-05:00Hi Jack,
"The shed blood of Christ on the cr...Hi Jack,<br /><br />"<b>The shed blood of Christ on the cross (not Calvary, as you will find that not one NT writer refers to Gethsemane, but to the cross) satisfies God's justice.</b>"<br /><br />You may be done with this post, but I will still ask what exactly was going on then in the garden of gethsemane? We do believe he shed blood for us on the cross, but we also believe he suffered for our sins in gethsemane. What was it all about if not suffering for our sins?Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13370001809898738399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-91911461829079660862011-08-29T17:12:33.915-05:002011-08-29T17:12:33.915-05:00Jeff,
You asked me to quit putting the spin on ea...Jeff,<br /><br />You asked me to quit putting the spin on earning salvation. With all due respect, that is how it sounds when you emphasize our works and de-emphasize the grace of God and the Work of Christ on the cross. I will admit that this is my opinion of how it appears. Now, one reason I express is that the LDS Church believes that baptism must be performed in order for a soul to be saved. Please correct me if this is no longer the case in LDS doctrine, but it is what I remember being taught as a member. This is one example, and I know there are Christian denominations who believe the same way. Biblically, this emphasis is not supported.<br /><br />I find it interesting that as you make this request of me that most of those who respond to me are basically teaching against what I believe, and that is that we are saved by grace, justified by our faith, and that our works do not play a role in the salvation equation. If the LDS Church truly believed that salvation is not earned, then why all the posts against my position? I understand that one of our issues is the difference in the language. When I say salvation, you say exaltation. When I say resurrection, you say salvation. There is a disconnect in our terminology, which I believe to be the fundamental stumbling block in understanding each other. <br /><br />Jeff, I am not going to say what you believe or don't believe, and I think it's great that you believe that salvation is a gift. But, when you say salvation, is it really resurrection to which you are referring? I ask this as an honest question, simply seeking to understand you. If you read my post on the new thread, you will see that I am striving to debate in a healthy manner that honors our Lord. <br /><br />Peace...jackgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-65433252112785366082011-08-29T09:35:02.376-05:002011-08-29T09:35:02.376-05:00So if true repentance occurs after we admit, make ...So if true repentance occurs after we admit, make restitution, keep the cpmmandments and FORSAKE our sins (dc 58) then how can imperfect repentance perfect us?Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-52685226299119458632011-08-29T08:53:23.170-05:002011-08-29T08:53:23.170-05:00Cindy and Jackg, the true LDS doctrine here is tha...Cindy and Jackg, the true LDS doctrine here is that salvation is a miraculous gift that cannot possibly be earned by us fallen creatures, and that it is only possibly through the infinite work/sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But that gift is offered in a covenant relationship with stipulations. Seeking to follow Christ, striving to keep His commandments and repenting when we fail (as we surely do), and committing ourselves to Him in baptism and other ordinances of the priesthood are part of the covenant's stipulations to receive that grace. As the Bible says, blessed are they that keep His commandments, for they shall have right (access) to the tree of life (rev. 22:14)--not that they earn it. <br /><br />It's not earned. Jack, please quit putting that spin on our doctrine. That's not what I believe at all. None of us have any cause to boast if we are saved.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23048856699760413432011-08-29T07:58:28.816-05:002011-08-29T07:58:28.816-05:00For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his ...<i>For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.<br />Col 3:24,25</i><br /><br />God says that we <b>are</b> to be judged by our works, but the question is, by what standard will He judge us? Knowing the holiness of God, we would probably all agree that the standard is perfection, no less. God is holy and cannot look upon sin (Hab. 1:13)<br /><br />How is it possible for us to do the work necessary to abide with God forever?Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53646766680384114282011-08-28T22:20:48.975-05:002011-08-28T22:20:48.975-05:00PapaD,
Christians see works as evidence of our fa...PapaD,<br /><br />Christians see works as evidence of our faith in Christ, which is what James is talking about. He is not talking about works as a means to salvation. Faith in Christ is the means to salvation, and having faith does not fall into the category of works. Works will follow the believer. That is true. But, our works cannot save us. The shed blood of Christ on the cross (not Calvary, as you will find that not one NT writer refers to Gethsemane, but to the cross) satisfies God's justice. We could never do that. And, I believe that what Christ did on the cross is sufficient. To add our works to this relegates His Work of redemption as insufficient. So, we do have different perspectives. Ah, but they make a world of difference in our view of God.<br /><br />Peace...jackgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66819133836694627202011-08-28T22:15:21.979-05:002011-08-28T22:15:21.979-05:00Rich,
I'm glad to see that you said that salv...Rich,<br /><br />I'm glad to see that you said that salvation is a gift. Now, it's important to realize that a gift is not earned.<br /><br />I see you quoted me, and I think maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough, because I definitely believe that we will be rewarded based on our works or deeds. Sorry if I confused you.<br /><br />I guess the main difference between us is that I believe in justification by faith, and that salvation is not in the same category as a reward, since it is a gift.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm just repeating myself at this point. :-) Thanks for responding to me. <br /><br />Peace...jackgnoreply@blogger.com