tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post1437003488530069174..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Do Big Tragedies Negate Small Miracles?Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27070904132494901542011-12-30T00:18:28.458-06:002011-12-30T00:18:28.458-06:00I feel terrible for the losses described here.
I ...I feel terrible for the losses described here.<br /><br />I am fascinated by this blog and this topic touches the deepest elements of religious belief, and is important to me. Personal pain of this magnitude can easily outweigh our convictions whatever they be.<br /><br />My own experience in the loss of a loved one in the Gospel, was that the Gospel was not the comfort I had hoped it would be. It is a time for real existential questions, not doctrinal trivia, for really asking them in the first place for many people and often finding their existing beliefs, again, whatever they be, wanting.<br /><br />The deepest, most profound exploration of this topic I have ever read was the Brothers Karamazov, especially in the end, with respect to losing a child. Incredibly painful and sad.<br /><br />I do want to remind you though that it has been said by Hebert J. Grant, then written by Spencer W. Kimball that<br />"There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity." I have heard the same said of leaving the Church or not completing a mission. Even though I maintained my chastity until temple marriage, served an honorable mission, at the time this bothered me a great deal. I am many years out of the church now, though, and I know my faithful mother does not believe that. So it does not bother me anymore,<br /><br />In light of the horrific and bloody mess of human suffering that was the 20th century: WWI, WWII and the Holocaust and everything else, do I believe God intervenes to find car keys? No. I don't believe God intervenes at all.Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75228507713269086482009-12-25T08:28:54.510-06:002009-12-25T08:28:54.510-06:00When my first son was just a few weeks old, he was...When my first son was just a few weeks old, he was placed in an intensive care unit suffering from a virus that endangered his breathing. I remember that as I prayed for his health and preservation, I was also struck by the thought that I, and my family, weren't more deserving or more important than the families whose children would not survive such trials. But I asked for the blessing anyway, and he was later restored to health.<br /><br />I don't know all the answers to this issue. I do know that God cares about small things as well as big ones. We're all important in his eyes. Why he chooses to answer some prayers with a yes and some with a no is something I probably won't understand in this life.ltbugafnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74108732775249577052009-12-14T16:59:10.629-06:002009-12-14T16:59:10.629-06:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Heartlessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89412239509964594742009-12-05T00:29:19.640-06:002009-12-05T00:29:19.640-06:00@ Twice. I didn't read that Anon was saying Ch...@ Twice. I didn't read that Anon was saying Christ or God didn't exist. I read that Anon said while after the first experience of losing a child turning to Christ was the response, this second time turning away is the response. I find that actually not surprising at all. Go back to the link I posted from Compassionate Friends. It is so common to question your faith, philosophy and belief system when you are grieving. Especially when you are going through it a 2nd time. I think that if we all truly believe that every knee will bow and every tongue confess someday, then it is just best to tend to the wounds in the very moment of need. The rest will come. Sure it is a "brief time" in the eternal perspective, and yes, our spirits are eternal beings. But our souls are also physical beings with that eternal spirit housed in a mortal body. Anon is hurting. How often in the scriptures do we read of difficulties framed with "like a woman in travail?" YES! A brief moment! But any woman who has given birth also understands it is just such an intense moment. And all the energy and attention and concentration and strength and everything you have is consumed in that moment! Sure, you can focus on what is to come and it may make the process seem more worthwhile, but it does not dull the pain. Those who grieve are in very intense moments of time. There is a very intense hurt. Anon doesn't need more hurts added. Please read the quotes I posted. It is so much more comforting to refrain from giving "answers" to a situation where the only answers the person is wanting cannot be offered. A person who has lost two children likely struggles to feel the love of Christ when that person KNOWS that Christ had the power to intervene and did not (well, I have lost two children and I can speak for myself, anyway). <br /><br />And please, be patient. Remember that a seed just planted cannot be harvested until the fruit matures. You can plant a seed and then demand your fruit. Perhaps in your demands you neglect to nurture the seed. And then your effort is for naught. Tend to the seed. Nourish it. See that it has the support that it needs to grow. And then let the process have the time to change (and as you have pointed out, isn't this "moment" such a BRIEF TIME). Time is required for change. That is EXACTLY why we are her in MORTAL TIME, so we have the opportunity for change.<br /><br />I think you meant well, but I think you might consider how it comes across. Which is the whole point of this whole thing, isn't it? It isn't that tragedies negate miracles. It is that the telling of the miracle may not have been sensitively done (sensitive to the Spirit, mainly, but also sensitive to those who we share with). There are all kinds of great talks and scriptures about our speech and communications and being mindful of how we use our tongue. Even when we are very careful with it, we still can learn to be more tender in our associations with others.plaidspoliticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00393586634918991649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-5175952925497275992009-12-04T22:18:26.508-06:002009-12-04T22:18:26.508-06:00Anon, are you saying that if God or Christ are rea...Anon, are you saying that if God or Christ are real, that they would necessarily prevent anyone from dying? Stop and think about what you are saying. Two people in your life died - very sad, yes - but why does your grief mean that God does not exist? This is mortality - we are all here temporarily and will all die. Everyone. That's the plan. Some young, some not. Sorrow and pain are part of this journey. Please don't choose to walk away from the source of life because of the tough parts of this brief time.Twice Foundenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41441938683302015702009-12-04T12:44:19.079-06:002009-12-04T12:44:19.079-06:00At 18 I lost my first baby to SIDS. She was 2 week...At 18 I lost my first baby to SIDS. She was 2 weeks old, I turned to Christ. After 18 years of marriage I lost my second, a 15 year old son in a car accident, in which I was to blame. I am now turning away from Christ. I do not believe. So either way in the mind of the author, I am also lost and dead. I always love the ones who have never felt the pain of loss giving advice to the ones that have. Your questions only added to my unbeleif, yes why does Christ choose one over another?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75159762750875151952009-11-21T00:50:28.676-06:002009-11-21T00:50:28.676-06:00The Mediator seems an appropriate name for the Sav...The Mediator seems an appropriate name for the Savior. He stands in perfect balance to weigh all things. He understands the joys of those receiving miracles. And he understands the sorrows of those who do not. The tendency in human nature is to see only from the perspective we are coming from. I think it is easy for those who sorrow to have a sort of envy for those who have joy. Sorrow is NOT a pleasant feeling, while joy is full of bliss. We *yearn* for the more pleasant, which I think really is a yearning to be where our Spirits came from, the familiar.<br /><br />For those in joy, it can be intimidating, uncomfortable to see others experiencing the difficulties of sorrow. Clinging to our joys feels so much safer than reaching out to those who are troubled.<br /><br />I don't know, but I think the Mediator would want those who are suffering to be slow to take offense when others share their joys. But at the same time, I think He would also ask that those who share their joys take time to consider how those they share their joys with might feel. Would sharing their joys uplift another? Let the Spirit answer that question, and let the Spirit also be the Comforter to those of us who are hurting even while others are not. <br /><br />Just remember that even the Mediator, even our Savior who has the CONSTANT companion of the Spirit is "a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief." We are not unrighteous if we do not instantly feel comforted. It is for a wise purpose that we feel the "negative" along with the positive-- "they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good." (Moses 6:55)plaidspoliticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00393586634918991649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-6748070045443395012009-11-21T00:13:30.519-06:002009-11-21T00:13:30.519-06:00There is a sense of urgency that comes in very cri...There is a sense of urgency that comes in very critical times, however, where one cannot wait: "...timing is essential. A person in need cannot wait to be comforted. His time is today: his pain is now; his loneliness is immediate... any would-be helper who delays a compassionate act may find that he has come upon the scene far too late to justify anything more than a wry smile of hurt indifference from the object of his belated concern.<br /><br />'I thought of you often' makes a bittersweet postscript to days, weeks, or months of procrastination... although neglect is often unintentional, the results are real, & in its wake lie wounded feelings & damaged relationships." (JoAnn Jolley, “<a href="http://bit.ly/2HTCFt" rel="nofollow">What I Learned about Compassion</a>,” Ensign, Mar 1980, 26) <br /><br />We just have to know that even if someone earned a reputation for who they were in the past, we all have opportunities to change. We all have opportunities to learn. We can all become better.<br /><br />And that is one other reason I had my blog public. Even though it was difficult to have those words, very personal & tender feelings, out there for people to review & criticize, I felt it could also offer a real HONEST perspective- flaws, insecurities, inadequacies, short-comings, etc. & all- of how these experiences can affect us.<br /><br />I would have believed myself to have dealt with this all differently before I went through it. But going through it really is different than anything you can imagine before experiencing it. I think the most accurate thing anyone has ever said to me about my childrens' deaths is, "I just can't imagine." I thought perhaps that others might have an opportunity to learn through my blog. Others who either are or would go through burying children or others who would know someone going through it. Perhaps it could give them a better understanding that just because someone puts on a mask to the world doesn't mean they are really handling things that way on the inside. They may NEED you in ways you have never thought they could need you. Ways you could never even IMAGINE they would need you.<br /><br /><br />I am not going to remove any of my comments here. I believe that my heart, my intentions, & my character are known to God. If these words stand as testimony against me in the eternities, I will let God judge me accordingly. Because I truly believe in a God who is loving & merciful. And I know that He will be much more gentle & kind with me because He knows me. I have to believe that anyway, even when I struggle to believe it because I hurt so very much. I doubt myself so very much. I still just cannot accept that God is not the same God I knew before Dominic & Bridget died. I still believe He is the same today as He was yesterday. He will still be the same tomorrow. I do not understand God, that is VERY true. But I still believe, truly & really deeply believe, that He understands & He will deal accordingly with me. And <i>someday</i> He will help me to fully understand. For now, I look through a glass darkly & try to find a way to understand others who see me through a glass darkly at the same time. I hope somehow we ALL will learn to be a little more loving & gentle in the meantime. I'm working at it too...plaidspoliticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00393586634918991649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83721219801816115212009-11-21T00:13:19.802-06:002009-11-21T00:13:19.802-06:00Language has been confounded since the Tower of Ba...Language has been confounded since the Tower of Babel & words are insufficient. It is only through the Spirit that we can communicate effectively. I really am trying to have the Spirit help me here, yet I am having a hard time making sense of many of the comments & trying to figure out where the author is coming from. If I knew who the person was, it might make more sense. However, that is another limitation to communication here.<br /><br />I have made my own blog private. I had been sharing very raw, tender feelings there. The original intent for the blog was as an outlet. I had not actually informed those in my actual life about the blog.<br /><br />I am wondering if this comment - "publicly criticize your own family members for not living up to your expectations. Very harsh and sad - how did that make them feel?" comes from thinking that the blog would have been read by family members? While I have at times been very honest about even the most dark & ugly feelings I have had over these years in trying to work through the experiences of burying my children, I have never named any of these people, & because I use a pseudo name, I assume that none of these people would ever be identified. (The only exceptions on names is when I posted gratitude for "Saints" in my life, & I posted first name & last initial of these "Saints.") Also, until my husband pointed out a comment sometime after it had been posted, I didn't understand that the blog really was being read outside of my own head, or by my husband. It was really more just a journal that I could put pictures & record intense feelings I have been going through. So unless my family members were reading the blog anonymously, I don't think they have felt anything about it.<br /><br />I am sure that EVERY single person reading these words has felt disappointment at least <i>once</i> in their lives when there was a great need. Do I get disappointed more often than the "normal" person? I don't know, maybe. I am not ashamed to be human. I am especially not ashamed that I am human & working toward overcoming the natural man within me.<br /><br />There are many things I should be. However, just remember that time is necessary for change to occur (mortality is a phase of time & change- part of THE plan). If we travel at the speed of light time stands still & change does not happen at all. Some of us may travel a little faster than others, but we are limited mortals & therefore are ALL changing. So I would love to *BE* more this or that, less this & that. But to be what I have not yet become still takes time. I have to be patient with myself, & I plead with others to be patient with me as well. And should I be patient with others? Yes, of course!plaidspoliticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00393586634918991649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81766942515989022612009-11-20T22:13:13.335-06:002009-11-20T22:13:13.335-06:00I'd be curious to have you (Jeff) create a pos...I'd be curious to have you (Jeff) create a post on the example of the Savior as far as His "silence" went in the time of His unfair mortal judgement or at other times when he did speak up (like the cleansing of the temple).<br /><br />How and when do we speak up? When does silence become greater than words?<br /><br />I'm not trying to start any war of words. Honestly people. Slow yo' roll. I'm genuinely curious as to what you (Jeff) think. I consider you like an online gospel doctrine teacher... one that is witty and doesn't put me to sleep. I've been substituting in Nursery a lot, so reading your blog is refreshing. Not quite as fun as Nursery, but nonetheless refreshing.Sofia's Primary Ideashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09757655354773987673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63590680290294406972009-11-20T17:47:16.518-06:002009-11-20T17:47:16.518-06:00If you have said something you wish you hadn't...If you have said something you wish you hadn't and cannot delete your own comment, let me know (jeff at jefflindsay dot com is my email) and I will consider deleting it for your welfare, even though it may make other comments seem out of place. <br /><br />For anyone who is offended or pained by discussions of these challenging topics, please understand that most of us are discussing these issues in good faith and with a desire to help others. I am sometimes surprised, even shocked, to see how well meaning thoughts can be give such unintended and offensive interpretations. If the topics here are unbearably painful, there is no need to read this blog or ask others with similar sensibilities to read them to be pained and offended unnecessarily. I'm not sure what kind of wildfire you are referring to--perhaps you can help quench it--regarding the tsunami of pain my blog is allegedly causing, but offended parties need not read this post and the comments. Should I take it down? There are some aspects of this dialog that have been helpful to others, so they have told me, which makes me hesitant to abandon this work and these discussions.<br /><br />The whole point of this post was to help us understand that "Mortality will leave all of us bitter and scarred if we cannot accept the diversity of gifts, blessings, trials, lifespans, ancestries, and genes that God lets us have." That applies also to the small gifts and miracles that others may experience. Let us be slow to find offense when others share their joy, even when it stirs deep wounds they may not know are there.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-72125953772569151502009-11-20T16:15:16.498-06:002009-11-20T16:15:16.498-06:00Anon @ 1:15 said "This, my friends, is what s...Anon @ 1:15 said "This, my friends, is what spiritual injury is all about. I *know* the gospel. I *understand* the scriptures. But what you will never understand is that it DOESN'T CHANGE THE WAY GRIEF FEELS when you are in the midst of it. What you all are failing to internalize, is that it DOESN'T MATTER who is right and who is wrong when it comes to pain and suffering. What back-handed sympathy to say "We are so sorry for your loss, but the gospel says it could be worse. We realize how much this must hurt you, but you are spiritually wrong to feel that way."<br /><br />Anon, I just went back and read the original post and all comments. Nowhere did I see anyone make the statements you are attributing to them. No one has said you are spiritually wrong to feel the grief and suffering you do. No one has said you are unrighteous (in fact, you are the only person to post that word). Rather, various commenters have attempted to point to the Atonement as the ultimate source of hope and healing.<br /><br />And just FYI, before you blow off my commentary as coming from yet another who "doesn't know" - I know. The funeral was in June of this year, and he was only seven.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-52908446684039458022009-11-20T13:48:59.785-06:002009-11-20T13:48:59.785-06:00~plaid, honestly, I think you need some help. Some...~plaid, honestly, I think you need some help. Some counseling. Your responses here go way beyond normal, healthy grief. I read your post on your blog about your experiences, where you turn on and publicly criticize your own family members for not living up to your expectations. Very harsh and sad - how did that make them feel? I have watched you jab at others here in a critical and bitter spirit, accusing them of "invalidating your feelings" while showing no respect for theirs. You demand love and compassion, but shouldn't that start with you? You can't see this yet, but step back and seek the Lord's help to understand why your pain is so quickly translated into criticisms of others. Why you find so much offensive in innocent things that others say and do. Perhaps there is a much deeper problem than you realize - and the problem may be something more than everyone but you being insensitive. <br /><br />It is you who chose to react to Jeff's sharing of a small miracle and turn it into a stone of offense that you now hurl at others. You choose how you react, like it or not, and you can choose to get help to make your reactions healthier, less bitter, less accusatory.Observer from Afarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90168961158635957222009-11-20T13:15:38.170-06:002009-11-20T13:15:38.170-06:00I admit, I was having a bad day when I read Jeff&#...I admit, I was having a bad day when I read Jeff's original post. It is hard to hear "pretty story" after "pretty story" when you didn't get your miracle. I chose to vent on there instead of going crazy during Fast & Testimony meeting sometime in the near future. <br /><br />Is that being bitter? I choose to think I'm just hurting. But fine, I was having a bitter moment. Happy, now? I'm a sometimes bitter, grieving mother who still goes to church every week, who still kneels down with her children in prayer every night, who still studies the scriptures with them, who does her visting teaching, who is a cubscout den mom, and is trying to hold onto her faith and hope with all her might, even despite the bitter cup that I have been called upon to drink.<br /><br />Thank you, Jeff, for dissecting and analyzing the emotional hurt of a grieving mother. It was my fault for putting it out there in the first place, but then you chose to highlight it and put it up for discussion. Instead of quietly realizing why such a post might be painful for some to read, you decided to use the gospel to validate what you wrote, and invalidate my feelings.<br /><br />How this post has edified and uplifted a weary heart. Just read through the comments! What a grand time everyone had debating the misery and grief of others!<br /><br />Thank you to all who chose to join along in the fun of proving the grieving mother "wrong" and by the accounts of some of you, "unrighteous". <br /><br />Thank you all for reminding me that after struggling day and night to keep my son alive for a year, and then watching him hemmorhage all over my husband two weeks before his 1st birthday, that it could be worse. Even Jesus said so. I had nearly forgotten that in the midst of my pain and suffering! Its a good thing you smacked me in the face with reality.<br /><br />I wonder every Sunday what my fellow ward members really think about my healing process, and if the sampling here is similar to real life...well, who needs enemies when you have brothers and sisters like these?<br /><br />Yes, I'm being sarcastic. But since none of you seem to understand that the more you try to prove your points and validate and justify your hurtful comments (and even worse, using the Gospel to do this!), you drive the nail deeper and deeper into the already festering wound. <br /><br />This, my friends, is what spiritual injury is all about. I *know* the gospel. I *understand* the scriptures. But what you will never understand is that it DOESN'T CHANGE THE WAY GRIEF FEELS when you are in the midst of it. What you all are failing to internalize, is that it DOESN'T MATTER who is right and who is wrong when it comes to pain and suffering. What back-handed sympathy to say "We are so sorry for your loss, but the gospel says it could be worse. We realize how much this must hurt you, but you are spiritually wrong to feel that way."<br /><br />Jeff, I ask in all sincerity, take this post down. You have no idea the amount of spiritual injury you are inflicting upon others to allow these judgemental, hurtful, cruel comments to linger. You have no idea how many other grieving parents have read through these words, and how damaging it is to their healing process. (there are many LDS blogs for grieving parents, and it is spreading like wildfire.)<br /><br />It was my comment that started this, I am taking it back. So please take it down. Unless of course, being right is more important to you than being sensitive to others' feelings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-5381793924732485652009-11-20T10:59:51.496-06:002009-11-20T10:59:51.496-06:00Anon @ 9:30 said "Perhaps the spiritual loss ...Anon @ 9:30 said "Perhaps the spiritual loss that comes when a child rejects God and the blessings of the Gospel is not greater than the death of a child. Perhaps thinking it is, no matter in what time frame, is in actuality not thinking at all."<br /><br />Or perhaps, it is actually exactly what the Savior himself said:<br /><br />"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28. (see also Luke 12:4-5)<br /><br />And the Savior immediately follows with the reminder of how precious the souls of men are to our Father in Heaven: "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. <b>Fear ye not therefore,</b> ye are of more value than many sparrows." Matthew 10:30-31.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30832886735704682912009-11-20T08:44:03.526-06:002009-11-20T08:44:03.526-06:00The Compassionate Friends link from ~plaid is exce...The Compassionate Friends link from ~plaid is excellent. Thank you! It is at <a href="http://www.compassionatefriends.org/Brochures/how_can_I_help.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.compassionatefriends.org/Brochures/how_can_I_help.aspx</a>.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-35544159005919625892009-11-19T21:30:55.574-06:002009-11-19T21:30:55.574-06:00Thank you Thank you ~plaid.
Words that needed to b...Thank you Thank you ~plaid.<br />Words that needed to be said, and you said them so well.<br />If it were me, I would have told a few commenters in this thread where to go. But it was finally nice to see someone on here with the Love of Christ. You have had more than your share of suffering and the unbelievable amount of callousness directed towards you with flippant comments cannot make it any easier. You have a patience to be admired. <br />Perhaps the spiritual loss that comes when a child rejects God and the blessings of the Gospel is not greater than the death of a child. Perhaps thinking it is, no matter in what time frame, is in actuality not thinking at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88965106903563095002009-11-19T12:40:44.310-06:002009-11-19T12:40:44.310-06:00There is so much of what was directed at me that s...There is so much of what was directed at me that stings. Deeply, painfully stings. Are you reveling in the thought "the truth hurts?" Perhaps I ought to be more humble and so forth and so on. Of course I ought to be! But it doesn't change the hurt that is in the moment, in the now. In generations to come, a prophet may just stand at the pulpit and tell the congregations gathered for General Conference about a faithful and grateful soul who endured difficult trials. He may tell MY story as eloquently and moving as the sister who buried her four little ones along her journey, using only a teaspoon near the end of that trail. But right now, I am here on that path of grief. When time comes and polishes the whole of my existence into the shining moments of my life, certainly I expect to be proven to be as faithful. Yet, right now. RIGHT THIS VERY SECOND! My eyes are wet, my heart is heavy, my arms aching, my mind troubled... I slept little last night, and the time I slumbered was burdened with terrible nightmares. I am struggling a great deal. Yet, I am still clinging to hope. Still carrying on, one foot in front of the other. I am no less than any other mother who in generations past buried her little one and had to carry on. My trail may not be the rocky, snow covered ground that her feet walked, but my feet walk just as treacherously. And to those who show me compassion along the way, THANK YOU! It is those few, those so very FEW angels among us who will one day ask, "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?" And the Lord will lovingly answer their inquiry: "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."<br /><br />But to those who have turned their hearts against those who mourn because they weary you, or whatever justification you have, the Lord will also speak to you:<br /><br />"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, erepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or thirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."plaidspoliticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00393586634918991649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21405687441611850122009-11-19T12:40:20.778-06:002009-11-19T12:40:20.778-06:00*Understand that grieving takes TIME & grievin...*Understand that grieving takes TIME & grieving takes WORK. It will take some time for someone to ACCEPT someone they deeply love has died. It will take time for someone to ADJUST to the changes in their routine & life related to having the person who was here now being gone. It takes WORK to process through the complexities of each situation. Some of us suffer with PTSD due to the traumatic crisis event, & for me personally, the repetition & eerily similar situations. It takes a lot of time & work to navigate through all that, & then consider that each person in the household is also grieving - just adds dynamics & dimension.<br /><br />* Realize that NO ONE will understand ANYONE else completely, & so we must rely on the Spirit to guide us in how to respond. To one who is mourning it may be helpful to do *X*, & for another mourner it would be hurtful to do *X*. So rely on the Spirit.<br /><br />* "Wherefore, be not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work. And out of small things proceedeth that which is great." (D&C 64:33) Just as a small miracle (finding keys after prayer) may open one's eyes to the goodness of God for the first time, isn't as equally likely that a "small thing" that you do for a grieving person may help that person immensely, more than you can know? Perhaps <a href="http://bit.ly/3InBAK" rel="nofollow">read articles like this</a> to learn how out of small things come great love & can aide the aching heart.<br /><br /><br />* Do not assume that a few words you read in a comment thread on a blog is representative of a whole person. How can a few hundred words really reveal the significance of one's character? In replying to one particular idea of billions, and then responding with such few words, you can easily build in your mind a reputation for someone that is not deserved. Then, perhaps, it results in the kind of thing that Neal A Maxwell wrote in his book "All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience": Regrettably we sometimes see an individual get classified, & no matter how well he or she does thereafter, it is difficult to get reclassified. It is sometimes like the chicken whose comb gets bloodied; all the chickens then peck at it, making the situation even worse. These 'walking wounded' are all about us, & they need someone else to help them bind up -- not add to -- their wounds.<br /><br />* And since we're talking Neal A Maxwell's book, read the whole chapter titled "Service and the Second Great Commandment." Here are a couple of quotes, but out of context you cannot have the depth and richness of what is being taught. Perhaps it will be a good seed in answer to the question (which I hope is sincere): "Frequently, we busily search for group service projects, which are surely needed & commendable, when quiet, personal service is also urgently needed. Sometimes the completing of an occasional group service project ironically salves our consciences when, in fact, we are constantly surrounded by a multitude of opportunities for individual service. ...We should balance our service between those who give us immediate response and gracious appreciation & those who are grumpy -- so grumpy they almost dare us to love them.plaidspoliticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00393586634918991649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41766933546227046422009-11-19T12:40:09.434-06:002009-11-19T12:40:09.434-06:00What exactly do you or any of you others mean by &...<i>What exactly do you or any of you others mean by "support" anyway? After a period of time passes, what can we possibly do to help anyway?</i><br /><br />* HOME TEACHERS THAT COME CONSISTENTLY! (We had no HTers for 9 months straight after Dominic died by HTers who REPORTED that they were visiting our family. When Bridget died, I BEGGED the Bishop to make sure we had HTers who would be consistent in coming. We were abandoned for NINE STRAIGHT MONTHS after Bridget died, & still have spotty HTing). Home teachers who are truly concerned about the family is a great bonus.<br /><br />* A tender hug. Then another one. And more as the days, weeks, months, & YES even YEARS go by.<br /><br />* Remembering their birthdays, their anniversaries of death, anniversaries of crisis events, holidays. And when you remember, DO SOMETHING (a note, phone call, drop by, take something to the cemetery, a tender hug, etc.)<br /><br />* Say their names. Dominic & Bridget are ETERNAL BEINGS WHO ARE REAL AND STILL EXIST and no matter how uncomfortable it is to say their names or hear their names, they are a part of our forever family.<br /><br />* Be here to see that I have tears, & be willing to wipe them away.<br /><br />* Let me say the hard things in my heart, & then DO NOT be ready with some cliche, Sunday school answer. Just let me say it. (Then maybe follow with a tender hug.)<br /><br />* Pray for me. AND then LISTEN for promptings on specifically how you can help. Then ACT on that prompting.<br /><br />* Read <a href="http://bit.ly/2HTCFt" rel="nofollow">articles such as this</a> to learn from others who have insights to help those who truly want to show compassion for meaningful suggestions.<br /><br />* Remember that long-suffering is as much a part of the gospel as charity (see 2 Tim 3:10).<br /><br />* Be willing to mourn WITH WITH WITH WITH WITH those who mourn (did I say WITH?)<br /><br />* Learn from Christ's example who TOUCHED the lepers when others would not even go near their outcast colonies. Though bitterness, anger, frustration, doubt etc. MAY be part of the griever's heart, do NOT let that "leprosy" keep you from offering love, kindness, etc.<br /><br />* Understand that grieving is universally notorious for challenging one's faith & belief systems. Just because one is re-evaluating those things does NOT mean they are REJECTING those things. Be willing to honestly answer questions without demeaning the griever for asking. And be open to recognizing there truly may be "inconsistencies" or "contradictions" in the gospel that may make you feel uncomfortable for someone to point out. Don't be quick to dismiss those things as just "bitterness" or other "wrong" thinking. And give the griever time to PROCESS those realizations. Sometimes, don't even bother to answer. A listening ear & a tender hug will likely work well here, also.<br /><br />* Make yourself familiar with this list from <a href="http://bit.ly/2YQTR9" rel="nofollow">Compassionate Friends</a> then DO some of those thingsplaidspoliticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00393586634918991649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-58268517739823949302009-11-19T12:38:38.351-06:002009-11-19T12:38:38.351-06:00Oh, how I am so grateful GRATEFUL for angels among...Oh, how I am so grateful GRATEFUL for angels among us! Thank you!plaidspoliticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00393586634918991649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17314481733983909942009-11-18T16:56:17.063-06:002009-11-18T16:56:17.063-06:00Wow, did I really come across so flippantly regard...Wow, did I really come across so flippantly regarding the death of a child? Did it really sound like a simple easy, pat answer was all that was needed? Or that the loss of a child was a minor matter? I'm horrified if my words conveyed that to you, just as I am horrified and appalled that some think I am saying it's better for kids to die than to depart from the Church. <br /><br />Here's what I have written in my post in response to one who complained when I shared a small miracle a mother experienced in rescuing her child, for she or he did not get a similar miracle and suffered the loss of their child: <i>"I’m so sorry about this. The loss of a child is one of the great tragedies of mortality. There are no easy answers, except for the far-off answer that comes through Christ and the hope of resurrection and reunion. Another great tragedy is the spiritual loss that comes when a child ultimately rejects God and the blessings of the Gospel. Again, only patience and love can be offered with hope that there might be a return one day."</i><br /><br />The answers aren't easy. However, I do think we cannot afford to lose the eternal perspective and know, however great the heartbreak now, that there is the hope of reunion and resurrection. That does not remove our grief now, and none of us should think that it does. But there is an eternal perspective that Christ offers us--we must not lose this, for it is at the heart of the Gospel. <br /><br />Yes, of course, of course, I don't "get it" from your perspective for your pains and griefs are not mine. But to accept small miracles that others experience, or to consider an eternal perspective in facing the problems of mortality, should not be perceived as invalidating or negating the pains of those struggling with loss. People are not necessarily morally or spiritually inferior or mere spiritual imbeciles who not been through the same trials or who do not speak from the same perspective. Others like Brad may have much more to offer than you think and need not be scorned and summarily dismissed for offering their views.<br /><br />Compassion without judgment is a great ideal--one that we may not receive from others, but one that we can strive to live ourselves, no matter how great our own pains.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02805223237055579284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60248082429875476612009-11-18T14:08:58.537-06:002009-11-18T14:08:58.537-06:00The point was not about finding silver linings to ...The point was not about finding silver linings to dead children. it was about being able to recognize and be grateful for small miracles even when we live among unreconciled and painful big tragedies. <br /><br />But why are you so adamant that there is "no silver lining" and nothing to give hope in the face of such loss? Are you really LDS or other Christian in your faith? The Resurrection counts for nothing? Eternal life reunited as families counts for nothing? Those who refer to that hope are inherently insensitive? It is the underpinning of all our hope in this vale of sorrow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53601561774660260472009-11-18T13:40:36.432-06:002009-11-18T13:40:36.432-06:00Look, the point trying to be made by many here is ...Look, the point trying to be made by many here is truly pointless, whether you have scriptural "proof" to back it up or not. A child has died. A family is grieving. There is no "but at least..." to make it feel any better. That is what I assume Jeff was aiming at when he wrote it. It is trying to make a silver lining in a tragic situation. I'm sure Jeff said it out of misguided compassion, but let me assure you, it IS misguided to say things like this to a grieving parent:<br /><br />"Well, at least you know he will have a celestial glory and you don't have to worry about him. There could be worse things..." <br /><br />(I have heard this multiple times from those who personally know me, so this is not the first time I have come across this viewpoint. It is quite common for people to say when a child dies.)<br /><br />Which is essentially what Jeff was saying. <br /> <br />I'm sure you don't understand why this hurts those who are grieving the loss of their child, but let me try to explain.<br /><br />You are basically invalidating their pain and suffering at this moment. By giving it a silver lining, and telling them it could be worse...you are saying their pain is not justified. <br /><br />Perhaps you don't really feel that way, but when you repeat things like this, that IS what you are saying! And that is what the grieving parent hears/feels. It is the absolute WORST thing anyone could do, because they absolute most IMPORTANT thing a grieving person needs to be able to heal and "move on" is VALIDATION and to be able to express their feelings without JUDGEMENT, and to have unconditional LOVE.<br /><br />Please trust me on this, if you don't, go read the multiple books on the subject at Deseret Book. (Because I have read them all) and they all talk about the same thing. These are the kinds of things that seriously damage people's faith when they are going through a trial of fire. I know you want to use the gospel on this, because it seems to work for everything else. But trust me, if your goal for arguing this is to somehow make it better, it WON'T work.<br /><br />There is no explanation, no justification, no silver lining, NOTHING when you are experiencing this. If it were that easy, well, to quote Sherri Dew, IT WOULDN'T BE HARD. <br /><br />All they need is someone to LISTEN (not explain, justify, proclaim, expound, teach) and to LOVE them, and not judge them, no matter what. If someone is not able or willing to do that, then they should say nothing at all, because nothing you say will make it FEEL any better, whether you believe it to be true or not.<br /><br />And my last comment on this, if you don't know what to say, just say "I don't have anything to say to make it feel better, but I am so, so sorry you have to go through this, and I will be here whenever you need me."<br /><br />PS. lets not analyze what Brad said, because it really doesn't deserve it and won't help the situation at all to repeat or dissect it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56753532233354500762009-11-18T10:58:31.125-06:002009-11-18T10:58:31.125-06:00Further, Elder Faust makes it very clear that the ...Further, Elder Faust makes it very clear that the blessings obtained by later repentance are not equal to the blessings obtained through faithfulness:<br /><br />In the portion of his Ensign article immediately following the portion already quoted (which was Faust speaking approvingly of language originally spoken by Elder Whitney), Elder Faust continues:<br /><br />"A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent and “suffer for their sins” and “pay their debt to justice.” I recognize that now is the time “to prepare to meet God.” If the repentance of the wayward children does not happen in this life, is it still possible for the cords of the sealing to be strong enough for them yet to work out their repentance? In the Doctrine and Covenants we are told, “The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.” <br /><br />We remember that the prodigal son wasted his inheritance, and when it was all gone he came back to his father’s house. There he was welcomed back into the family, <b>but his inheritance was spent.</b> Mercy will not rob justice, and the sealing power of faithful parents will only claim wayward children upon the condition of their repentance and Christ’s Atonement. Repentant wayward children will enjoy <b>salvation</b> and all the blessings that go with it, <b>but exaltation is much more. It must be fully earned.</b>"<br /><br />(emphasis added)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com