tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post1661806976064828790..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: David and the Psalms in the Book of Mormon: Weakness or Strength?Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75557962870998726952017-05-16T22:43:33.700-05:002017-05-16T22:43:33.700-05:00This topic was briefly discussed in the talk "...This topic was briefly discussed in the talk "Covenant Patterns in the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon - Taylor Halverson" at Book of Mormon Conference 2017. <br /><br />https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/covenant-patterns-old-testament-and-book-mormon<br /><br />See minute 33, though the part before lays the foundation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15396043516772096842017-04-05T13:02:54.736-05:002017-04-05T13:02:54.736-05:00re the Russia analogy:
It seems to me that if Jo...re the Russia analogy: <br /><br />It seems to me that if Joseph Smith is Vasili, then Stanford Carmack is Lysenko.<br /><br />-- OKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-51082238767662812682017-04-05T09:46:56.248-05:002017-04-05T09:46:56.248-05:00Anon 7:43am
So you're saying that a native En...Anon 7:43am<br /><br />So you're saying that a native English speaker with little formal education who is trying to imitate an archaic but standardized form of English used non-standard constructions to do so and that proves the results must be words from God?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-24691131988247445902017-04-05T08:31:14.403-05:002017-04-05T08:31:14.403-05:00Thanks for this article!Thanks for this article!John Hilton IIIhttp://johnhiltoniii.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-49979095055356740532017-04-05T07:43:22.872-05:002017-04-05T07:43:22.872-05:00Let's correct some of this: "He proceeds ...Let's correct some of this: "He proceeds to translate these writings in an archaic form of Russian that sounds like Russian from a bygone era but, surprise! is from an era even earlier than once thought."<br /><br />This is inaccurate. Here is how it must read in order to be accurate:<br /><br />"Vasili proceeds to translate these writings in an archaic form of Russian that sounds like Russian from a bygone era and it turns out by comparing the usage with that found in digital databases of tens of thousands of old Russian writings that it is archaic Russian (not earlier than once thought), which is different in many ways from Russian biblical language, but nevertheless virtually all attested in the Russian textual record. Perhaps a Russian philologist, given enough time, could have produced all these forms and structures, but not Vasili, given his uneducated background, and lack of training in Russian philology. It is a virtual certainty that he didn't come up with the words himself. Since his dictation is so well attested, it is likely that God did transmit hundreds of thousands of Russian words to him."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-8297526310960347052017-04-05T07:30:43.916-05:002017-04-05T07:30:43.916-05:00Hi Anon 11:43 AM, April 04, 2017,
FYI - Rereading...Hi Anon 11:43 AM, April 04, 2017,<br /><br />FYI - Rereading through the posts, no one is making the claim the the Book of Mormon is true because of allusions / similarities to Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt.<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-44242431894240976692017-04-04T11:43:38.131-05:002017-04-04T11:43:38.131-05:00"There are all sorts of references to the Exo..."There are all sorts of references to the Exodus in the migrations of the Mormons to their promised land in Utah, a place where one of the dominant geographic features is a freshwater lake feeding through a River Jordan into a highly salty lake which has no outlet. Those points of similarity were quite consciously noted, but they were nonetheless real."<br /><br />Let's take this example a little further with a little hypothetical. Let's assume that the existence of Mormons is only believed by a very small majority in the world. The only way we know they exist is because Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others wrote down their experiences--there is no corroborating evidence of their existence from other Americans or from known archaeology. By the way, though they speak English, all those prophets who write their experiences decide to do it in an unknown form of Japanese which they call "reformed Japanese." We have some examples of those Japanese "caractors" and they don't look like any Japanese anyone has ever seen, but that's ok, because we're not sure that those are the actual "caractors." <br /><br />One day, a Russian treasure seeker Vasili claims to find these writings and decides that he, and only he, can translate them with the aid of a stone placed in a hat. While he translates the writings, sometimes they are right beside him and sometimes they are in another room, but he translates them so fast, everyone is convinced that it's a real, valid translation. He proceeds to translate these writings in an archaic form of Russian that sounds like Russian from a bygone era but, surprise! is from an era even earlier than once thought. He publishes these writings, and now, everyone knows that Mormons exist, right? Oh, by the way, Vasili is presented with <i>actual</i> Japanese characters a little later in life, and the translations he provides for them are completely incorrect, even though he uses them to produce a text much like the text he produced earlier. <br /><br />It should be obvious to everyone that Mormons existed because their history of migration to the Salt Lake valley is similar to that of Moses in the bible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21003262716086298052017-04-03T18:59:40.088-05:002017-04-03T18:59:40.088-05:00You are all assuming that the OT was actually writ...You are all assuming that the OT was actually written by men and women of a wind/storm god or by that god itself. How do we know that the OT was written by them and not by someone adopting ancient texts from other cultures that surrounded them? I guess I mean how far fetched is it for a young man to look into a hat and have a story appear versus the creation of the OT? How crazy is it for another man to see an angel in the desert and write the words of a god? Maybe it's all made up? Pieces of fiction mingled with history to add a little more weight to it? Maybe it's not...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-34568247503314263832017-04-03T18:11:25.745-05:002017-04-03T18:11:25.745-05:00There are all sorts of references to the Exodus in...There are all sorts of references to the Exodus in the migrations of the Mormons to their promised land in Utah, a place where one of the dominant geographic features is a freshwater lake feeding through a River Jordan into a highly salty lake which has no outlet. Those points of similarity were quite consciously noted, but they were nonetheless real. <br /><br />Similarly, Joseph Smith compares his vision of Christ with the vision experienced by Saul on the road to Damascus. In both cases, the recipient of the vision had not done anything in particular to deserve what he experienced, and it is clear instead that the future potential of the two men to serve as witnesses of Christ that justifies the visions. <br /><br />The aspiring Evangelical scholar who criticizes the Book of Mormon for not having enough references to the Psalms, and then rejects all Book of Mormon references to the Psalms out of hand, is having problems with his thinking. Clearly, numerous books of the Bible that the scholar accepts as authentic scripture are utterly devoid of references to King David. His thesis would seem to force us to reject them as inauthentic. This is called "reductio ad absurdum". In addition, by rejecting the actual evidence of references to David and the Psalms in the Book of Mormon, the scholar is showing a lack of integrity. He is working backward from his conclusion, but cannot work forward with his thesis toward any consistent conclusion about other authentic Hebrew writings. coltakashihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06478524737130808597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-2869457062001309362017-04-02T12:25:10.767-05:002017-04-02T12:25:10.767-05:00I don't remember if there are language allusio...I don't remember if there are language allusions are not in the Nephi-David connection. But, for example, there are strong phrasal allusions in the Lehi-Exodus intertextuality. To be clear, I don't believe the BOM is historical, and I do think it is dependent on the KJV in various places. I just want to make sure we're all making fair arguments.Benjamin Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541225589476653984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-22240897902683101092017-04-02T11:37:01.841-05:002017-04-02T11:37:01.841-05:00There is no direct allusion in the text to the sto...There is no direct allusion in the text to the story of David. The actual events described are derivative of the David and Goliath story, just as Lehi's exodus from Jerusalem is derivative of the Moses story. As Jeff’s sources point out above, most of the language and style as well as many of the events of the Book of Mormon are borrowed. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18288154476005307642017-04-02T00:46:57.205-05:002017-04-02T00:46:57.205-05:00Also, in response to Anon 11:59. Considering histo...Also, in response to Anon 11:59. Considering history is written down after the fact, it would be a fairly simple to embed a literary device, such as an allusion to another text, into a historical narrative. However, what your comment really illustrates is that it's probably even easier to create allusion in a non-historical narrative.Benjamin Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541225589476653984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-42819738969384315802017-04-02T00:40:42.931-05:002017-04-02T00:40:42.931-05:00Another skeptic weighing in here. First, in respon...Another skeptic weighing in here. First, in response to James, the people that describe the dictation process are pretty consistent. There are several eye witnesses to the process, and no one left a hint that things were different than what they described, while, for example, there is evidence that the literalness of the testimony of the eight witnesses was possibly undermined by Martin Harris. I think evidence shows that while JS was willing to stretch the truth, he and those who followed him were sincere believers. At the very least, if the Book of Mormon was produced by a less than sincere method, I doubt anyone but JS and unlikely but possibly Oliver was in on it. I'm only willing to throw Oliver under the bus because he appears to be complicit to the additions to the 1835 D&C which write Peter, James, and John into the priesthood restoration 5 or 6 years after the fact. However, it's also very possible that JS and Oliver had evolving understandings of past mystical experiences and we are only seeing truth stretching in the 1835 D&C additions, or another possibility is that JS is fraudulently coopting past mystical experiences and embuing them with new details and meaning, taking Oliver and everyone else for a ride.<br /><br />In addressing the language taken from biblical psalms and embedded in Nephi's psalm, it would also be worthwhile to examine Nephi's psalm for New Testament language. For example, there is a pretty clear allusion to James 1:5 in 2 Ne 4:35. If we can find allusions to both the New Testament and to Psalms, it seems like a rather messy solution to conveniently assign the Psalm allusions to Nephi, and the NT allusions to JS' translation, being the common apologetic response to the KJV language strewn throughout JS' texts. Benjamin Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02541225589476653984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75793872766267722032017-04-01T11:59:15.816-05:002017-04-01T11:59:15.816-05:00"He is alluded to heavily in 1 Nephi, in the ..."He is alluded to heavily in 1 Nephi, in the story of Nephi killing Laban."<br /><br />How can historic events be an allusion? That's a literary, not an historical device. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21548158028736660602017-04-01T08:26:01.941-05:002017-04-01T08:26:01.941-05:00James,
> Is it really so clear that Smith prod...James,<br /><br />> Is it really so clear that Smith produced the whole Book of Mormon by dictation without notes or texts?<br /><br />Royal Skousen has argued that some errors in the manuscript support the position that it was dictated. That's probably the hardest evidence. You'd have to carefully read his writings to evaluate their persuasiveness, so I'm guessing that won't happen.<br /><br />Whether you think Joseph could read notes and books with his face in a hat, whether he performed a fake dictation day after day for months on end, whether he could convince numerous people to lie about what they saw during the translation and other experiences, etc, is not super relevant to this post.<br /><br />> I'm afraid I didn't have time to read it carefully<br /><br />That's apparent in your questions and discussion.<br /><br />> So isn't it an issue that the whole Book of Mormon, which is pretty long, mentions David so little?<br /><br />That is the entire point of this post. Read the post carefully to get Jeff's answer to it, instead of requesting he rewrite it for you in the comments.<br /><br />> Some of the books within the Book might skip David, but all of them?<br /><br />They don't all skip David. He is mentioned in at least two books, 2 Nephi and Jacob. He is alluded to heavily in 1 Nephi, in the story of Nephi killing Laban.<br /><br />> Not mentioning David does seem kind of weird to me<br /><br />That's because you didn't carefully read the post, specifically the section "The Lack of David in the Book of Mormon" that addresses your question in detail.Guadalupenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10249471371065178682017-03-30T16:27:13.984-05:002017-03-30T16:27:13.984-05:00Is it really so clear that Smith produced the whol...Is it really so clear that Smith produced the whole Book of Mormon by dictation without notes or texts? I'm fuzzy on just how much evidence there is for this. <br /><br />If some of his scribes claimed that the entire book was made that way, there is always the possibility that someone who was in deep enough to be a scribe could have been in on a fraud, and therefore lying about the production process. If some third party described visiting Smith and discovering him at work that way, the dictation could have been a staged performance.<br /><br />Is there harder evidence than that? If not, then Smith's pure dictation without notes is not an established fact that proves he can't have made things up, but just another assertion whose plausibility depends on Smith's credibility. A man who could fake the Book of Mormon by whatever means, after all, could surely get some people to attest that he had dictated it all from a hat.<br /><br />About this post, I'm afraid I didn't have time to read it carefully, but I did wonder about the argument that some OT books don't mention David. I guess they don't, but the Bible as a whole sure does. So isn't it an issue that the whole Book of Mormon, which is pretty long, mentions David so little? Some of the books within the Book might skip David, but all of them?<br /><br />Lehi might have been descended from a northern tribe, but he supposedly lived in Jerusalem. He and his descendants might have revered David as the "king after God's own heart". Or perhaps they might have despised him as a tyrant corrupted by power. It's kind of weird that they would just forget him, though. The Book of Mormon seems to have a fair amount of concern about righteous government and David is the great Biblical example of kingship, both for good and for bad. Not mentioning David does seem kind of weird to me—except of course that I think Joseph Smith simply made up the Book of Mormon, and his concerns about government were really more those of 1830's New England, about factions and secret combinations and liberty, than about ancient Middle Eastern kingship.James Anglinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18266855639647700167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-59837385634060729942017-03-30T09:39:49.535-05:002017-03-30T09:39:49.535-05:00Ftan, thanks. I took some time a few hours before ...Ftan, thanks. I took some time a few hours before I saw your comment to remove some excessive rhetoric. After seeing it, I noticed there were still improper passages I had meant to revise, and finally toned them down a well. I hope the tone is a little better now, but it's still hard for me to get too formal in a blog. But I don't mean to be offensive to Beshears or the Seminary, so if there is language that you consider inflammatory or excessive, let me know. I'm willing to tone it down.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12107669046233333122017-03-29T23:02:47.297-05:002017-03-29T23:02:47.297-05:00Jeff,
I've never claimed to be able to transl...Jeff,<br /><br />I've never claimed to be able to translate a book by looking into a hat, so I'll leave that challenge on the table. <br /><br />See if this description sounds familiar: "[he] was not slick or charismatic, in the conventional sense. . .His formal education was limited. His vocabulary was full of words of his own invention."<br /><br />"When it came to the Bible, however, he was without peer. . .the first few times [an individual] heard [him] speak, he was convinced that “this was of God.”<br /><br />"He threw out theories and ideas—inviting argument and discussion."<br /><br />"He found solace in the Bible – and by the time he was 12, he had memorized large tracts of it. "<br /><br />These are descriptions of David Koresh. This is just a reminder that the things you believe are impossible may not be so. A lack of education or difficulty learning (Koresh had dyslexia and was in special ed classes most of his life--he dropped out of high school because he was so bad at school) does not preclude one from being a Biblical savant (it's said that Koresh could hold Bible studies for 8-10 hours a day).<br /><br />I'm not making a moral or theological comparison between the two individuals. I'm using a dramatic, but I think apt, example to show that the "Joseph couldn't have done it" argument doesn't really hold water. In Koresh, we have a modern-day example of an unlearned religious leader with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Bible who could use that knowledge to convince others of his truth. Joseph's talent may have been slightly different in that he could use Biblical language and styles to tell his story of American Indian history, but Koresh shows that, uncommon though it may be, "book learnin'" isn't essential for Biblical aptitude. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25302217075362250242017-03-29T15:31:45.992-05:002017-03-29T15:31:45.992-05:00Better to dismiss work based on its lack of merit ...Better to dismiss work based on its lack of merit rather than an appeal to authority (or lack thereof). Anon 3:15, feel free to present which aspect(s) of Jeff's work are flawed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-87817251395055175392017-03-29T15:15:07.328-05:002017-03-29T15:15:07.328-05:00You aren't an expert in this field, so your lo...You aren't an expert in this field, so your long diatribe can be easily dismissed as the work of an amateur acolyte. The flags you plant are to help bolster the faithful, not convince the skeptic or break new scientific ground. If you were presented with incontrovertible truth showing that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction dreamed up by Joseph and his cadre of associates, you would dismiss it outright. You are in the tank for the church, and therefore an untrustworthy source for truth claims. Leave this gnat straining alone, Jeff, and go back to trying to scare people with nonsense hearsay about banking collapse and other fields you're not an expert in. Sheesh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-8345183961313590212017-03-29T14:18:16.381-05:002017-03-29T14:18:16.381-05:00Thanks for your work. What would make your study b...Thanks for your work. What would make your study better, Jeff, would be to delete unnecessary, inflammatory adjectives and adverbs. Make it more professional and matter of fact; in the long run it will be more hard hitting.<br /><br />The evidence Beshears deals with isn't of the strongest kind. And yes, mormonic is a transparently juvenile attempt to manufacture an adjective with ill-intent. It doesn't reflect well on the author and weakens his attack.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-29226224400885710542017-03-29T11:25:15.995-05:002017-03-29T11:25:15.995-05:00Great article; thoroughly documented and well-reas...Great article; thoroughly documented and well-reasoned, as usual. You mention that Lehi had roots in the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and so would be less focused on David. Along those lines, some LDS scholars have speculated that the brass plates may represent a Northern Kingdom equivalent of what the Old Testament would have been up to that point. If that's true, then David may well have been downplayed on the brass plates and possibly even more sharply criticized (hence Jacob's negative reference to David), just as, say, most American history doesn't have nice things to say about British kings. bwebsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09247430857579605507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63190184439185071742017-03-29T08:11:55.843-05:002017-03-29T08:11:55.843-05:00I am far from being a scholar but I try to underst...I am far from being a scholar but I try to understand your articles. I am a Gospel Doctrine teacher who recently taught the lesson on the Gathering of Israel. The lesson reaffirmed my testimony of the Restoration to the point that I do not fear any scholarly work disputing Joseph Smith. Thank you so much for your own efforts in trying to uncover and expose truth.<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3190276029218758572017-03-29T07:23:30.387-05:002017-03-29T07:23:30.387-05:00Obviously the text was written by someone, and tha...Obviously the text was written by someone, and that someone surely existed. <br /><br />Spewing our random Bible phrases one has picked up over the years is one thing. Writing a meaningful psalm accurately following the patterns of biblical psalms (as Nickerson has shown), and doing it with almost overflowing but meaningful interwoven allusions to relevant psalmic material is another thing. Yes, it could be done by someone with a Bible in hand (such as the Bible Joseph had Oliver Cowdery purchase after he finished translation of the Book of Mormon) and sufficient time, education, and craftsmanship. But doing that and weaving in a chiasmus or two and Hebrew word plays really makes this more challenging, especially for someone who hasn't studied Hebrew yet. Doing all that in about 2 hours of dictation from a hat, with no notes or books on hand, raises the bar even more. That may see easy to you, but I'd be happy to lend you my hat so you can try it yourself. I'll even take your diction for a couple of hours, and then we'll see. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-71085746202074091642017-03-28T22:40:28.529-05:002017-03-28T22:40:28.529-05:00Why does "it stretch one’s imagination to bel...Why does "it stretch one’s imagination to believe that Joseph Smith could have been responsible for making all of these connections" and not stretch one's imagination that Nephi may have been able to? Someone created the text. Why is Nephi more qualified to borrow phraseology than Joseph? According to what you've written above, Nephi had access to the Psalms, but guess who else did? <br /><br />Is it likely the text was written by someone who may or may not have existed? Is it more likely it was someone who is documented as having existed, who wrote in a language we know exists, and who "borrowed" words and phrases from the KJV of the Bible in other religious documents he created throughout his life?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com