tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post2324518480797639612..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: The Need for Reverence: One Hour of Chaos Is Worth a Thousand Anti-Mormon BooksJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53728378329288048112010-02-21T00:34:37.769-06:002010-02-21T00:34:37.769-06:00Yes, there are a variety of options, some creative...Yes, there are a variety of options, some creative, in dealing with these challenges. Patience and charity, though, are always welcome.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10850450220716925262009-11-04T17:04:33.585-06:002009-11-04T17:04:33.585-06:00I'd also like to point out that most church bu...I'd also like to point out that most church buildings are set up so that the sacrament meeting can be heard in young women’s and relief society rooms, so people complaining about not having a place to go...there usually are plenty. No need for the church the spend any more money on already built chapels when there are members around the world who need it so much more.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07734779429268611504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18814145477347479122009-11-04T17:00:51.157-06:002009-11-04T17:00:51.157-06:00I don’t have any kids yet, and I realize that they...I don’t have any kids yet, and I realize that they are often irreverent and distracting, but I know that most often they and their parents are doing their best. Sacrament meeting is just as important for the children as it is for the adults. True, they don’t need to take the sacrament yet, but the lessons they will learn between squirming and occasional fussing are invaluable. It is the only hour at church that they will be able to spend learning about gospel principles with their parents and is also (for many of them) their first experience with having to be still for a long period of time. As members of wards with children, we must understand that these children are often not used to the schedule, missing meals and nap times one day a week. But as they get older, they will learn how to sit still. <br />I remember one poster suggesting that those looking for perfect peace and quiet visit the temple, and I can’t agree more. True, sacrament is an ordinance and we should strive for reverence, but it’s just not always possible. <br />How are asking people not to bring children to sacrament meeting, or asking that others work on the Sabbath to watch the children of others (especially when they would be missing sacrament meeting) conducive to the teachings of the church? They aren’t. <br />I think kim-the-girl and a few others were right on in saying that the spirit is what you should be looking for at church, and you can feel that in any class and even if there is a bit of a rumble from the kids.<br /><br />If you want silence, join a singles ward, visit the temple or set aside personal time at home. Don’t take your frustrations out on those who are at a different point in their life.<br /><br />In reality, I think the biggest problem in sacrament meeting is not the children. It’s everyone playing with their cell phones and PDAs, texting, reading news and checking their email. Now that’s a problem that can be solved.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07734779429268611504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12518283118253883732009-11-03T16:10:33.543-06:002009-11-03T16:10:33.543-06:00I don't think anyone is even reading this post...I don't think anyone is even reading this post anymore, but I just wanted to respond to Jeff's question about holding sacrament meeting last, and at what time. I served in four different congregations while on a mission in Brazil--one branch met from 8am-11am and the others met from 9am-12pm. Two of them had sacrament meeting last. <br /><br />I liked the idea of sacrament being last, but I did notice that, because of the seemingly general consensus in the Church that sacrament meeting is the "most important" meeting of the three hours, many people would come just for sacrament meeting and skip out on the other two hours--so they could sleep in, maybe, or for some other reason. So I'm not sure that's a very good solution, either, sadly...Cordelianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25272081503279890422009-10-19T17:49:40.229-05:002009-10-19T17:49:40.229-05:00Wow. I don't know if anyone is even reading t...Wow. I don't know if anyone is even reading the comments on this one anymore, but I wanted to share a few thoughts...<br /><br />My in-laws have the reverse schedule with Sacrament meeting last and it is a nightmare! It seems to me that the kids are exhausted beyond reason at this point and throw all caution to the wind in their "demands" if you will. <br /><br />As a mother of young children (6,4,3,1) we are obviously struggling with keeping reverence on our bench, but we are trying. I think the problem here is the judging that is happening. Like one parent said, he holds up a finger to say if a child has lost an ice cream scoop, this may not be noticed or recognized by those around him, but that does not mean he is doing nothing. Its not our place to judge their efforts or what may appear to be their lack thereof.<br /><br />I am very sensitive to what others may be thinking or feeling about me (to a fault, really) so I have cried several times when reading this post and the comments that have followed. I hope and pray that no one has suffered due to my inability to keep my kids quiet during Sacrament. But the fact remains that Sacrament meeting is where I belong and it is where my children belong. They need to learn to be obedient to all of God's commands just as much as you, and I, and the investigators. I really like the point that someone made that these children are little investigators. They might not be getting a lot out of the meeting, but sometimes they amaze me with what they do get out of it. <br /><br />The thought of separating meetings for adults and children just makes me sad. I need to be there to see the light go on in their eyes when the speaker mentions Lazarus or Nephi or some other character they recognize and love. I need to hear what they are being taught, so I can reinforce it at home. Besides, who would maintain order in children's meeting? As the Primary President, I can tell you it is hard enough to maintain some essence of order with a handful of teachers and leaders corralling them, but it is hard to keep staffed because everyone wants and needs to have some time in the adult classes. Having all separate meetings would mean I was "cut-off" from all of the adults in the ward. <br /><br />That being said, I am a firm believer that you can be spiritually fed no matter where you are in the church, it just takes work and effort. I don't get to hear the Relief Society and Sunday School lessons any more, but I am able to have the spirit testify to me of Jesus Christ's Atonement and love, when I put forth the effort.<br /><br />Christ wants us ALL to return to live with Him. You're absolutely right, it isn't easy. Not even a little bit. But it is possible. We can't give up on these children and we can't give up on ourselves. Because like one commenter said, Christ will never give up on us!kim-the-girlhttp://kims-booknook.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-6402123515754307852009-09-26T04:59:04.315-05:002009-09-26T04:59:04.315-05:00I try to look at it the way I've been taught J...I try to look at it the way I've been taught Jesus would. Didn't Jesus love children unconditionally so he knew what children? Our children sometimes talk and ask lots of questions during sacrament. I would think that is exactly what Jesus would want most from them. Jesus probably hopes the adults would be more fun-loving and accepting like the children. It's the parents need for control during the service that causes the most issues.new convertsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37898932312628675952009-09-24T12:33:32.108-05:002009-09-24T12:33:32.108-05:00The "sacrament last" approach was done f...The "sacrament last" approach was done for a time in my ward in Sandy, UT in the 1980s. I was fairly young, but I remember liking it quite a bit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-78754111784341733592009-09-24T09:24:45.657-05:002009-09-24T09:24:45.657-05:00Meeting time hours would have an impact, I agree. ...Meeting time hours would have an impact, I agree. Meeting times in Sweden are at 11, since no buildings need to be shared. This means sacrament meeting starts at 1. I remember as an investigator I was thoroughly impressed with how calm and happy, and rarely crying the kids in the ward was. I would be interested in knowing who decides the order of the meetings, and where else they are reversed? Is it mainly European countries? Whenever I mention it here (in Canada), people claim that noone would come to the other meetings if it were reversed. I wonder about that though - I've never seen that to be the case back home.Lunicraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18314729960430357278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83883128949659317542009-09-24T08:45:52.481-05:002009-09-24T08:45:52.481-05:00Theresa, thanks for sharing the Swedish perspectiv...Theresa, thanks for sharing the Swedish perspective. I wonder if other areas doing the "reverse" schedule get the same results - anyone else have experience with that? There are also other cultural factors that could contribute, such as the typical sleeping and eating schedule of children. What time of day do you hold your meetings?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77905629175616128352009-09-23T12:02:33.623-05:002009-09-23T12:02:33.623-05:00People need to stop posting as 'anonymous.'...People need to stop posting as 'anonymous.' At least make up a name. There needs to be some kind of unique identifier. No more of this, "Anon @ 3:45, this is Anon @ 3:51, well the second Anon @ 3:51, because the I think you were Anon @ 3:51 yesterday, anyway, I agree that Anon @ 8:45 is in fact Anon @ 7:32 and that I agree with him. Or her. Sincerely, formerly Anon @ 3:51, now known as Anon @ 4:59todopuretehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14415450749102265369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25179857908147771932009-09-23T08:53:23.925-05:002009-09-23T08:53:23.925-05:00I was not going to make anymore posts here, but I ...I was not going to make anymore posts here, but I just read the last post and I felt that a couple of things needed to be clarified. First of all, there are some anonymous posts that have been made here that have been attributed to me but that I did not post. For example, the comment about giving your kids some nyquil and also the comment with all of those capital letters. My rudest comment was the first one I made - which I repeatedly said I was sorry about and even sought forgiveness for, and meant it every time I apologized. I still feel that some people have cherry picked my statements, completely focusing on the initial, most negative things and ignoring a lot of anything else I have said. I could go through a lot of the things I have written and give myself a good defense. But like I said, I am not here to defend myself, eventhough I feel like that is all I have been doing. I also feel I need to make it perfectly clear that I am fully aware that this is a real struggle for parents, and that I truly do have compassion in my heart for what they have to deal with. Like I said before, I am in awe of anyone who has children. Those are not things that I am just saying, but things that I truly feel in my heart. I also feel like it should be understood that it is not my intention to put all parents in the same category. I recognize when a parent is doing what they can. But sometimes it is obvious when a parent could be doing more - such as not bring a noisy toy for their child to play with, or not just sit there and do absolutely nothing and allow their child to be noisy throughout the entire meeting - those things happend regularly, and those are the parents I take issue with. I also take issue with church policy on this matter. As I said before, I feel like I have just wasted my time, but I did need to clarify those points. I rarely comment on any blog or article. The only reason why I did here was because this is something that is a real struggle for me. Just making it to sacrament meeting is very hard, and I am barely hanging on. I have a testimony, and that is the only thing that gets me to church at all. I do not fit in at church and there are many cultural aspects of it that make it even more difficult. I put in my best effort, but it is always a failure. That is why I am so grateful for the Atonement, because it is the one thing in life that keeps me alive and lets me know that the Lord really does make up for where I fall short. Taking the sacrament is something that is very important to me for a lot of reasons that I will not go into here. Again, I am sorry for things I have said or any unfair judgement I have made. It is not my intention or desire to be or come off as self-centered or selfish. Now I really am done here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-49522495427260689922009-09-23T03:10:17.206-05:002009-09-23T03:10:17.206-05:00But as a church we need to work with everybody and...But as a church we need to work with everybody and learn true charity. These noisy children are also potential converts and will respond and learn more about the true Gospel of Christ by adults exercising examples of love, patience and kindness instead of examples of irritation, entitlement and frustration. <br /><br />I no longer view church as a place to get my spiritual needs met. Going into church with expectation always led to disappointment. Instead I look at church as an opportunity, a laboratory if you will, for me to practice Christ like behavior and thought. This has proven to be a much better route to truly communing with God and letting His spirit work in my life. <br /><br />I agree with Dr. J. Sometimes the point of our greatest struggle and frustration is when the light dawns and we get closer, truly closer, to the Lord. I am sorry your hurting and not at peace and I sincerely hope that you find solace.Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18879291023539854112009-09-23T03:09:32.430-05:002009-09-23T03:09:32.430-05:00Anonymous without kids: I do infer that you are no...Anonymous without kids: I do infer that you are not considering the body of Christ. Your ranting came across as very callous and self-centered. Every child in the chapel (including us...are we not all children?) is worthy of respect, love and kindness. Yes, some families are terrible but some singles are too. So how do we fix the problem? <br /><br />I can empathize with your frustration. I really can. I have lived in Utah and "mission field" wards in foreign countries. I have been a missionary and taken many investigators to church (including my husband who later joined and also commented on the noise level when he first attended). And even worse than the noise I have sat with investigators when blatant false doctrine was preached from our pulpits...when someone called the Catholic church the great and abomindable church and said how evil cathedrals are (and the person<br />investigating grew up in the Catholic church...talk about a cringe worthy moment). I know how it feels to agonize over whether or not someone can feel the spirit. And what I found was it was important to leave it in God's hands and have faith that it would work out. And it always did.<br /><br />With all this talk of responsibility lets talk about the truth of your earlier comments-they were quite incendiary. How could you not expect people to give you a rebuttal? And I am amazed that your are offended that we have. You vented and wondered why all of those thoughtless parents didn't get a babysitter. Quote:<br /><br />"Sacrament meeting is not meant to be a test to our reaction to noisy children either. It is for adults. Parents, have some respect please. Shut up your kids. Get a babysitter."<br /><br />What is implied by your statement later in the post is that those who have noisy children are not seeking peace (like you are) and that children are inherently distracting and troublesome. A toddler who cries in the middle of sacrament is not trying to ruin your worship service or make you lose the spirit. They also have needs, like you, but are not at the developmental stage to learn how to sublimate them. Maybe the parent doesn't take the child out right away (which angers you) because they think they can quiet the child and also want to be able to share in the ordinance. Maybe the child wants to be taken out so they are starting a tantrum but the parent doesn't take the child out because they know this. Who knows. The point is you don't know the situation or if the child has issues...you really don't know what is going on. Maybe the parents ARE thoughtless or maybe there is an issue you are not aware of.<br /><br />You follow-up your initial rant with several posts where you express irritation and frustration with said children and parents. You "shout" by using all caps and the tone of the post was in a scolding style. And apologizing beforehand for making such comments does not erase their intent. You are RIGHT (see...I'm shouting too) and everyone else is wrong and victimizing you by not respecting your need to worship in silence.<br /><br />Can you see the problem with this line of thinking? There was very little compassion in your post (except for yourself).<br /><br />What I find interesting about your comment is that you are searching for something outside of yourself to give you PEACE. Peace can only be found from within. An ordinance will not give it to you. I submit that you will not find it at church no matter how quiet it is in the chapel. Noisy children or no...no one makes you angry or frustrated...you choose that all on your own. <br /><br />I wasn't saying that singles aren't important or not welcome. Quite the contrary...I believe they are a very important part of the church. Even as married people we are on our own solitary spiritual journeys. And though I wasn't single I might as well have been when my husband wasn't a member. I know what it feels like to be alone. <br />(continued)Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50152041296513057232009-09-23T03:03:33.083-05:002009-09-23T03:03:33.083-05:00First to the second Anonymous (6:17): You don'...First to the second Anonymous (6:17): You don't know me or "people like me". I have never made a single adult feel unwelcome but you wouldn't know that because you don't, in fact, know me. I am actually an advocate for the marginalized and the underdog in our church. And it is true...the family is very important and key to this church. I wrote this not to make Anonymous feel bad but to show that these families are also important and have every right to worship and partake of the sacrament. <br /><br />It is not me who has underscored the importance of family but the church itself. And these families, full of loud children, are the core of the future church. Of course single converts are important but the posts by the other Anonymous were very strident and dismissive of all the rude parents and their spirit destroying children. Instead of viewing children as a burden all of us should be taking a role in providing nurture and support for these tender beings. But I shouldn't have used toe heart thing. I was rushed for time and didn't gather my thoughts like I wanted. Sorry about that. I didn't mean it that way. It was a poor choice and example. <br /><br />Still I stand by what I say about the body of Christ. Every person is integral and important. That is why I am not opposed to children going somewhere else during sacrament. I would welcome this turn of events. I find sacrament meeting...well most of church really...stressful. And as it stands now it appears, from reading these posts, that the way things are is not the most effective of meeting individuals where they are at. Sacrament meeting is boring for children, stressful for parents and frustrating for singles and older people for various reasons. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could find a better way to meet people where they are at so our meetings could be more pleasant? I am all in favor of separating the parents and children for sacrament. Perhaps children ages 1-7 could go to a children’s worship service. Why can’t we try something different churches are successfully using?Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21327527224583722232009-09-22T23:15:59.307-05:002009-09-22T23:15:59.307-05:00I tried to see all the comments, to see if anyone ...I tried to see all the comments, to see if anyone else have mentioned the following observation: In all wards I have attended in my home country Sweden, the meeting times are reversed to those I attend in Canada (and those in US etc). I love it the "Swedish" way. It builds up the Spirit during the meetings, to be the strongest during sacrament meeting in the end. My old ward in Sweden has more kids and people than my current Canadian one. Yet, the Swedish one is much more reverent. Can i be that the kids have used up their energy and are content spending the last hour close to their parents? It is a content feeling all around. Additionally, afterwards, noone is in a hurry, but sit through the postludium in reverence. It's simply awesome. Does anyone else have similar or opposite observations?Lunicraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18314729960430357278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-28375194983314166702009-09-22T22:50:39.980-05:002009-09-22T22:50:39.980-05:00To Anon @ 6:37---I've read much of this discus...To Anon @ 6:37---I've read much of this discussion, and appreciate that you are frustrated by the reverence situation in your ward. I also appreciate the frustration felt by parents who struggle to teach their little ones the principles of reverence that we all ought to be practicing. As Jeff has said on several occasions, this is a challenging issue that is going to require a lot more love and patience, and a lot less finger pointing on everyone's part. <br /><br />(Hopefully) without getting too far off topic, I want to say that I hope you won't give up on Church. There are times when our challenges and frustrations threaten to overwhelm us, and we feel like we've given all we can give and don't have anything left in us. I think when we reach that point, if we have ears to hear, we might hear the Spirit whisper "Pay attention! You're about to learn something important!" Those frustrating, stretching times are exactly the times when we have to hold on, to keep doing all we can do, and then stand still and watch for the Lord's arm to be revealed and for his tender mercies to be poured out upon us. In the end, each of us needs those kinds of experiences so that the Lord can teach us and change us from who we are into who he needs us to be. Don't give up on Him or His Church---he'll never give up on you.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00721565646178868107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-6095980526836161212009-09-22T18:34:43.829-05:002009-09-22T18:34:43.829-05:00I have made so many comments here, and I feel like...I have made so many comments here, and I feel like it has been a complete waste of mine and everyone's time. I have nothing to offer, and I don't even feel like going to church anymore. The Lord knows how I have tried so hard. I love the Lord, but I really can't take this anymore. Good bye to all of you. Have a nice life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14846648324960080662009-09-22T18:27:21.070-05:002009-09-22T18:27:21.070-05:00I forgot to say to Mary that you may think that I ...I forgot to say to Mary that you may think that I am not looking at the church as a body. But the thing is, my whole gripe about reverence in sacrament meeting and parents being more responsible with their children has everything to do with being sensitive toward the church as a body. Sometimes it comes across that certain people with children only care about their own families and children with no thought to anyone else or how anyone else is affected. If a parent came over to me and said I have a serious need, could you please watch my child and give me a break? I would gladly do everything in my power to take that child and help that parent. But when I as a single person talk about a need that I have, or that potential converts may have, it doesn't matter. It's not as important. It is viewed as selfish and not looking at the body of the church as a whole. It is hypocrisy to me. We are supposed to support eachother. If I were to ask a parent to stop bringing noisy toys to church or to take their child out, I wonder how that person would feel. I am afraid to ask a parent such a thing out of fear that I would be criticized for not being supportive of them. I feel like basically it is the needs of families that matter. Forget the singles. They don't have real needs, they are selfish, they are not important.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-67485514084753915202009-09-22T18:26:09.387-05:002009-09-22T18:26:09.387-05:00Anon @ 4:49 PM said "The reality in my ward i...Anon @ 4:49 PM said "The reality in my ward is that the parents with noisy children could help out with their reverence far better than I could, and truly that is their responsibility. If they are not going to be responsible about it, then it really is not my place to step in and take over."<br /><br />Ah, so it's not your place to step in and take over. But by your initial posting and various follow-up ones, you feel it's your place to come on a blog and badmouth these same parents, noting that you are "seriously so sick of" it?<br /><br />If you truly view it as their responsibility, on what basis do you think you are justified in the "venting" and ranting you have engaged in against them here? Not responsible to help, but only responsible to criticise... as I've mentioned before, we know well whose pattern that ultimately is. <br /><br />I recognize that I'm holding a firm line with you on this, and you may perhaps feel that I am doing so unfairly. Keep in mind, however, that the strong and/or attacking language on this topic was presented initially by you. <br /><br />Also, Mary - great comments. Thanks for reminding us all that the family is what is central, and the other items are at best ancillary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77793642022306673332009-09-22T18:17:21.291-05:002009-09-22T18:17:21.291-05:00Mary, While I agree with some of the statements yo...Mary, While I agree with some of the statements you have made, I also must say that people like you make a lot of singles feel totally unwelcome at church, as if we matter less because we aren't married or have children of our own. Yes, families are important and that's what it's all about. Singles are part of the human family that we are all a part of. I feel like some who are married with children have a superiority complex in the church, as if their problems matter more. I don't believe that most with families are that way, but all it takes is a few to leave a really rotten taste in the mouth of others. Of course any missionary would much rather baptize a whole family instead of a single person, but that shouldn't mean that a single person is somehow less important. Singles have a place and should be made to feel no less important. Your last statement makes singles look like an afterthought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15099340841202804232009-09-22T17:54:17.201-05:002009-09-22T17:54:17.201-05:00For Anonymous who doesn't have children:
Yes,...For Anonymous who doesn't have children:<br /><br />Yes, it is regrettable that it can be chaotic in certain wards. It is also unfortunate that you cannot get your needs met because of all the racket (but I would submit that you do have sufficient time to worship privately and at the temple if the need arises)...but I do think one point should be made here:<br /><br />The church grows because of families. We are growing not because of lots of single converts but because of families who are already members who continue to have children who remain members.<br /><br />When I was a missionary it was stressed that our goal wasn't a baptism but the family...to get the family sealed in the temple. Why? Because the family brings stability.<br /><br />In many ways your point of view could be construed as selfish as well. You seem to talk a lot about your needs instead of looking at the church as a body. Paul's parable of the body of Christ comes to mind. The toe is not more important than the heart. Both are necessary. <br /><br />I was saddened and shocked to read a few of the stories shared here about insensitive people and how they berated parents and their children which ended in these families never coming back. How sad! There is really no defense of such unchristian behavior.Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32344558784280474372009-09-22T16:53:50.890-05:002009-09-22T16:53:50.890-05:00I haven't read all the comments, so if any of ...I haven't read all the comments, so if any of what I am about to say is redundant I apologize. Still, I would like to say something about this post.<br /><br />Yes, we can always do better. And I think it would be smart for the leadership in the church to consider this issue as well. How could we restructure sacrament meeting so it better meets the needs of the families and individuals attending? We should also question what worship is. Is it the outward manifestation of being "obedient" and "reverent" by folding hands and counting the minutes until sacrament meeting ends? Or does true worship happen in the heart by being inspired, edified and lifted by what is shared during talks and through testimonies? I think many adults in this church could do some work on the second part.<br /><br />An understanding of child development is also necessary I think. As the current church service stands it is constructed to meet the needs of adults and not children. I don't argue that children need to still learn to obey rules and learn reverence...but true reverence is more than being quiet or having folded arms. Reverence and awe have much in common.<br /><br />Why is it, do you think, other churches place their children in a child's worship service while they attend their own? I don't think it is because these churches don't value the family...in fact I think it is exactly the opposite. The church is trying to reach out to each individual in the congregation..especially the "least of these".<br /><br />I am not saying children should be allowed to run around the chapel or obnoxiously cry or what not. But I am saying that it is unfair for us to expect children to be mini-adults or be inspired by talks that begin: "I started preparing this talk last night..."<br /><br />Right now I have 6 children under the age of 9 (including toddler twins) and my husband has duties during sacrament meeting. I am often left alone with them. Although I never bring food or toys I do let them draw AFTER the sacrament has been passed. This has worked quite well. They are respectful and quiet during sacrament and when the "boring" talks begin (imagine the consciousness of a child...most of these talks are like listening to Greek) they are allowed to draw. <br /><br />Oh, I have gotten some of "the looks" from those who don't think that what I choose to do with my family is right. But it turns out my children get more out of the meeting this way: it keeps them quiet, it keeps them focused, and often they actually listen to what is being said from the pulpit.<br /><br />My 7 year old daughter likes to draw pictures of Jesus, a girl with folded arms, the temple...the list goes on. A few weeks ago she looked up at me after a woman finished her talk and this same daughter expressed wonderment about what the lady had said. "Oh, mama, that was a WONDERFUL story wasn't it? God is so great! I love God!" To me that is true reverence. At the same age I did the outward manifestations (because I knew I would get a spanking if I didn't) but the talks droned on and I never really listened to what was said.<br /><br />As for sugared up kids. That comment irked me. In the ward I've been in in Utah invariably it is the PRIMARY WORKERS who sugar up my kids. Every Sunday my oldest comes home with treats from her Sunday School teacher. This, of course, causes consternation with the other children. One lady told me she does this because this is the only way she can get her class to behave. Again I will say: Can't we do better than this? Rewarding children and punishing children for "good" and "bad" behavior never works. Being reverent ourselves...truly embracing these little sprouts of humanity will make a difference in the tenor of all of our meetings and dealings as a church.Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75294905953934971632009-09-22T16:49:50.794-05:002009-09-22T16:49:50.794-05:00I have loads of young nieces and nephews that have...I have loads of young nieces and nephews that have constantly needed help being quieted down. I have sat with them and tried to do what I can. I openly admit that I am not very good with children. That is one reason why I don't have children of my own. It doesn't mean I don't love or care about them, and I would happily take any mother's screaming baby out of the meeting if she would let me. But I also would feel very strange and awkward to walk across to the other side of the room to suggest I take a person's child out of the meeting when she doesn't have any other children and her husband is right there and could do it as well. I do not want to be like the child police. I would love to take away some of the noisy toys that some parents bring to church, but I don't feel that would be appropriate and it is not my place to do that. I am now in another ward where I haven't gotten a chance to know anyone very well yet, and as much as I would love to step in and quiet down other people's children, from what I have been able to tell so far it would be very inappropriate for me to do that. If I saw a single mother sitting nearby who was really struggling and obviously needed help, I would help her out in a heartbeat. The reality in my ward is that the parents with noisy children could help out with their reverence far better than I could, and truly that is their responsibility. If they are not going to be responsible about it, then it really is not my place to step in and take over.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75243028282839819192009-09-22T16:23:34.639-05:002009-09-22T16:23:34.639-05:00Anon 2 3:55 PM said "You also have made a fal...Anon 2 3:55 PM said "You also have made a false assumption that just because I have complained about parents who don't do anything about controlling their children, that I therefore do nothing to assist parents in need. What do you know about the efforts I make to help others? You know nothing about it."<br /><br />Agreed - we know nothing about it, because you have not stated that you have actually done anything. Have you actually done something to assist in improving the reverence in your ward, particularly reverence related to the behavior of children? If so, what have you done?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15081042941280278682009-09-22T15:55:39.020-05:002009-09-22T15:55:39.020-05:00621, It is not making an excuse to say that every ...621, It is not making an excuse to say that every ounce of one's help still doesn't solve the problem. That is just a fact. It might help those that I am helping, but it is not enough. It does not really solve the problem. Furthermore, in many situations, it would be very inappropriate for a person to just step in and try to quiet down another person's children. It is obvious when a parent needs help. But not all parents want help and some would be offended if I tried to step in and do something about their noisy child - especially when they themselves are doing nothing. And, whoever said that it was the brethren's fault? I only said that I believe a formal church policy is the only way that real impact could be made. That is not justification for anything. I like the idea of a reverence room. Or what about there being a policy where children are not allowed to attend sacrament meeting until they reach a certain age? Any child under a certain age would go to a nursery, which would be chapperoned by a rotating group of people. The room would have a speaker system so the talks could be heard. That is a great idea, in my opinion. You also have made a false assumption that just because I have complained about parents who don't do anything about controlling their children, that I therefore do nothing to assist parents in need. What do you know about the efforts I make to help others? You know nothing about it. You are upset because I have used harsh words, but I have been honest and have tried not to make any false judgements or assumptions about you. You have assumed that I "feel the need to fill the role of Satan as an accuser" and seem to think that if I really have a testimony of the atonement that that somehow makes it wrong for me to have a genuine complaint about parents who are being irresponsible with their children during sacrament meeting, or that it makes my testimony of the atonement less true to reality. It almost seems like you believe that in order to have a testimony of the atonement or to be genuinely grateful for the atonement, that one must be perfect, which I obviously am not. You assume that just because I am complaining about someone, that it means I don't believe the atonement works in their lives. You couldn't be more wrong. I apologize for the harsh manner in which I have expressed my thoughts and feelings. I hope you and others can forgive me for that. I apologize if I have said anything about you that is not true, or if my perception of your comments is incorrect. I forgive you for your false assumptions and judgemental words. It is not a hard thing for me to do. All I want is for there to be peace and understanding and perhaps my quick and harsh words have had the opposite effect. I truly apologize for that and hope that you can forgive me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com