tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post306411663470077648..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Eternal Souls in Frail Mortal Shells: The Complexity of GenderJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15864937434533194112012-09-11T00:47:20.757-05:002012-09-11T00:47:20.757-05:00"We shouldn't necessarily assume that the..."We shouldn't necessarily assume that there even is a "sole determinant" of gender."<br /><br />Exactly right. I wasn't saying there <i>is</i> one determinant, because I'm pretty sure there isn't. I was just clarifying that scientific researchers who have studied this issue for years have not been able to pin it on any one thing.LDS Genderhttp://ldsgender.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12736800232939105762012-09-11T00:43:23.807-05:002012-09-11T00:43:23.807-05:00To LDS Gender: Thank you for the link. I have no...To LDS Gender: Thank you for the link. I have not read it yet but I will (having computer troubles) <br /><br /><br />And thanks to other for the various links<br /><br />JaniceJanicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90624305426603729922012-09-10T22:47:39.372-05:002012-09-10T22:47:39.372-05:00First off I just had to say that Songs of Solomon ...First off I just had to say that Songs of Solomon is canonized, but it's certainly not scripture....<br /><br />Back on topic though. Kaydence's experience is certainly not the exception to what usually happens in the church, which I find most unfortunate. I have spoken with over five different bishops (I tend to move around a lot) trying to figure out exactly what I need to do in the eyes of the church to be able to be an active temple recommend holding member without compromising the medical treatment and counseling I need to be a functional human being. Not a single one of them actually knew how to handle my situation. The church's policy on how to help transsexual/transgander people is not even clear to bishops. Fortunately, for me only a few of my bishops felt I needed to be disciplined/shunned because of my disorder and most of them at least tried to be understanding, but the end result is I have no temple recommend and no one seems to know what I need to do to get one.<br /><br />As far as bathrooms go making a transwoman (who dresses or acts like a woman) use the men's room really is not a good idea. This often results in being ridiculed and even assaulted. A better option would be to use a gender neutral or family restroom--unfortunately those are rare. Really though, I don't know why people have a problem with transwomen using the women's room. It's not like were rapists or something--we're as far away from that as you can get! And no one ever even sees you when you're in a stall behind a locked door.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77012065074271275682012-09-10T18:31:11.437-05:002012-09-10T18:31:11.437-05:00Kaydence, what a challenging situation. I'm gl...Kaydence, what a challenging situation. I'm glad the LDS psychiatrist was able to recognize the situation and sorry that others have not been as understanding. I don't understand these situations well at all, but from an administrative perspective, I suppose that there are assignments that need to be made based on external physical indications of gender such as which bathrooms one can go into, where that gender-based assignment is driven by social issues, not the true inner gender of the person. For social reasons, kids who look like boys can be expected to use the boy's bathroom. Anything else might cause undue alarm to others. Social considerations will also probably lead leaders, even ones who understand the complexity of gender issues, to stick with the "natural" assignment of external males to young men's classes, Scout camp, priesthood assignments, etc. <br /><br />A lot of this experience is going to seem unfair. It is. Being born with this complex state has a load of unfairness built into it from the beginning. No easy answers, but patience and faith can get us through these trials. Maybe others here with more experience in this field can offer their suggestions for dealing with raising children to help you meet your child's needs while also moving forward in your journey of faith as a Latter-day Saint. <br /><br />Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21647114312935105192012-09-10T15:22:56.633-05:002012-09-10T15:22:56.633-05:00Those are good points and they are somewhat tangen...Those are good points and they are somewhat tangential to the present discussion. To me truth is truth and the Spirit will testify of truth and it may or may not be in accordance with what LDS apologists have determined to be truth (my guess is that they overlap a great deal). There are all sorts of thorny issues that arise when you get too strict about what constitutes "truth" that remove the Spirit from the equation. For instance, we already know that the Bible is only true as far as it is translated correctly. Also, are these apologists saying that the Proclamation is untrue unless and until it becomes canonized? In a sense, "canonization" is not making a particular teaching that is untrue <i>become</i> true so much as it is saying that something that was already true is now binding on the Church. Prior to canonization those who take the Spirit for their guide can still be enlightened by "uncanonized" truth. Remember that Joseph Smith said the Holy Ghost is the oldest book in the world and what he goes by.<br /><br />I could go on and on but I do think it removes us somewhat from the topic of this particular blog entry.LDS Genderhttp://ldsgender.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-91666509568535498152012-09-10T15:10:52.378-05:002012-09-10T15:10:52.378-05:00LDS Gender,
You raise many good questions that I&...LDS Gender,<br /><br />You raise many good questions that I'm not qualified to answer. My only purpose in commenting was to evaluate the provenance for the doctrine of premortal gender. As you may or may not know, LDS apologists have a set of criteria for determining what is or isn't official LDS doctrine. The Proclamation on the Family doesn't meet those criteria. The passage in Moses is one of the only canonical works that comes close to addressing the doctrine of premortal gender. Is premortal gender a true doctrine? I don't know and don't care. Most Mormons believe it. I'm mostly interested in determining how Mormons come to believe what is or isn't doctrine. The Proclamation didn't exactly state anything novel in LDS thought. The GA's who issued it grew up hearing the ideas expressed in it. Where did those ideas come from?Kadmonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21913659054935261002012-09-10T14:13:32.738-05:002012-09-10T14:13:32.738-05:00Kadmon, I haven't brought up Moses. I do belie...Kadmon, I haven't brought up Moses. I do believe our spirits were either male or female and I believe this for numerous reasons, none of which I have brought up . . . except for the Proclamation. We can choose to disbelieve it or parts of it because it has not been canonized (yet? will it become true if it becomes canonized but not until then) but even that is a non-issue because other people take the Proclamation and used their perceived ironclad truthfulness of it to show that "gender is eternal, therefore you are whatever gender your genitalia say you are." So people take it and come up with all sorts of meanings from it. But even if our premortal spirits didn't have a gender and gender was not a quality that applied to us until we were born into mortality we still have to account for the myriad cases where people have physical characteristics of both genders. Which one of the two genders are they then? Is it up to other people to tell them what they are? Do we go off of external evidence alone. Do we discount how a person feels? There are numerous cases where a person seems only male on the outside only to find out later that there is something female about their physiology that wasn't immediately obvious. One such person I know of was born appearing male but always felt female but couldn't get anybody else to believe her and she even attempted suicide because her stress got so bad. She finally had her DNA tested when she was a young teenager and found out that it was XX. About fifteen years later she was tested again at the request of her new stake president and was found again to have female XX DNA and she is now living as a female with the approval of the Church. In a case like this do we tell this person that we know better than them what their gender is?<br /><br />In short, the "whether or not premortal spirits had a gender" issue may not mean much until somebody who is riding on it one way or the other explains fully how they think it is relevant to the present discussion. The best I've been able to gather so far is that the people who think the Proclamation isn't 100% true are saying, "You had no gender until you arrived in mortality so you must live with being whatever gender you seem most obviously to be." And people can espouse that viewpoint if they want but it still leaves the difficult cases unanswered and unexplained, and the difficult cases are precisely what is being discussed here.LDS Genderhttp://ldsgender.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76342463360087071842012-09-10T13:52:36.466-05:002012-09-10T13:52:36.466-05:00@LDS Gender
You're making my point by extendi...@LDS Gender<br /><br />You're making my point by extending the slippery slope argument. As I said, it depends on how far you want to push the definition of "all things" in reference to the spiritual creation. I don't endorse the idea that every aspect of a person has a spiritual counterpart; I'm just illustrating the potential problem of using a particular scripture in Moses to prove that there was premortal gender. If we're going to use the Moses scripture to imply that gender is spiritually created, then we need some criteria for excluding other human characteristics, however rare they may be, from the category of "all things."Kadmonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-71029856635297150322012-09-10T13:33:35.242-05:002012-09-10T13:33:35.242-05:00I think patriarchal blessings can help in some ins...I think patriarchal blessings can help in some instances. Mine is quite ambiguous gender-wise. You read it and get the feeling that the patriarch was doing the best he could at the time. It may have been very odd if he said, "You're really a girl!" in it. I've heard stories from others in this situation who had interesting things to say about their blessings.LDS Genderhttp://ldsgender.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-78615390204081947032012-09-10T13:15:55.257-05:002012-09-10T13:15:55.257-05:00I wonder if a Patriarchal blessing would clarify t...I wonder if a Patriarchal blessing would clarify the situation for Kaydence's child, especially if the Patriarch had no knowledge of the child's situation beforehand? This is not the first time I've thought about this, as this past spring I spent time with a non-member friend who told me somewhat of the struggles her friend, born with organs of both sexes, was having in changing identity from a male to a female. I thought perhaps a patriarch who can discern lineage, could also discern gender. However, whatever happens in this life, all will be made right in the next. It's the waiting and enduring misunderstanding (or persecution) that is difficult. My heart goes out to those with that particular challenge. It makes mine seem minuscule.Rozy Lasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06019413665136390175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60577449524028585322012-09-10T13:05:31.231-05:002012-09-10T13:05:31.231-05:00"The genetic aberrations and other aspects of..."The genetic aberrations and other aspects of the 'frail mortal shell' that Jeff referred to would also have a spiritual counterpart, calling into question the idea that some people have physical traits that deviate from their spirits." So, everything about a person's body is perfectly mirrored by the spirit? Is the spirit of somebody born without arms also missing arms? What of people who are born with genitals where the doctors can't tell if it's male or female genitals? What about people who appear to be male on the outside but have a uterus on the inside? See <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/05/25/man-admitted-to-hospital-for-kidney-stone-discovers-hes-a-woman/" rel="nofollow">here</a> for an example.<br /><br />Janice, here is one paper about DES and gender identity: <a href="http://www.antijen.org/transadvocate/id33.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.antijen.org/transadvocate/id33.html</a> and there are more such resources like it.LDS Genderhttp://ldsgender.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-11522934689699550132012-09-10T12:00:13.670-05:002012-09-10T12:00:13.670-05:00Oh as far as knowing whether or not one has a case...Oh as far as knowing whether or not one has a case of true transsexuality or is suffering from self-deception there are two very helpful resources that should be used in this matter:<br /><br />1. The Spirit of God.<br />2. A experienced therapist that has been very well trained in handling cases of transsexuality according to the current medically established standards.<br /><br />Unfortunately the second resource can be tough to find.<br /><br />And if one is simply caught in self-deception then why should we take it upon ourselves to be the judge of that? If it really is just their problem, then it's their problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-47827744924507251712012-09-10T11:54:36.156-05:002012-09-10T11:54:36.156-05:00Here's a great list of a bunch of links to som...Here's a great list of a bunch of links to some peer reviewed journal articles on medical related gender studies: http://aebrain.blogspot.com/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html<br />Also according to the research I have done the prevalence of transsexuality is between 1 in 250 and 1 in every 2000 persons. I made a post on it a while back:<br />http://transchristian.blogspot.com/2011/12/just-how-common-are-trans-people-anyway.html <br /><br />I also just wanted to say thanks again to Jeff for the loving approach he is taking with this. His example is a great demonstration of someone following Jesus' example of seeking understanding before seeking judgement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3696811682697973452012-09-10T10:52:56.197-05:002012-09-10T10:52:56.197-05:00For what it's worth, I am a mother raising a t...For what it's worth, I am a mother raising a transgender child of only 6 years old. When she was 18 months and just becoming verbal, she identified as a girl. Asking me where her vagina was. Praying at night at three years old for Heavenly Father to give her a vagina.<br /><br />We have been kicked out of our ward by our bishop, we have been told our revelations about how to raise our child is wrong, we have been told "we are not doing what the Lord wants us to do." All of which have been incredibly damaging.<br /><br />We have been to five doctors including a pediatric endocrinologist and an LDS Psychiatrist who specializes in gender. The LDS Psychiatrist validated us and told us we were doing the right thing. That Gender Identity Disorder (it is yet to be medically recognized as transgender) is a biological issue for which the only tested "treatment" method is letting the child live as the gender they identify with.<br /><br />He also shared with us that he has written a chapter about gender for the American Association of Psychiatry and he has called Salt Lake to question the church's position only to be ignored. He said that whatever gender doctrine there is out there, it does not extend into the realm of GID. <br /><br />Even so, we have been told by our church leaders that our daughter can't participate in Young Women's, or get married in the temple, or serve a mission. <br /><br />So where does that leave a family like us? Kaydencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16421677331999211534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-87106022271027798692012-09-10T10:15:45.068-05:002012-09-10T10:15:45.068-05:00Eveningsun,
The provenance of the LDS belief abou...Eveningsun,<br /><br />The provenance of the LDS belief about gender determination in the premortal existence definitely deserves some scrutiny. If we limit ourselves to canonical sources, most of the references to the premortal existence are in the Pearl of Great Price. In Moses 3, it says that all things of which had been spoken (presumably referring to the creation account in chapter 2) were created spiritually before they were created physically. In chapter 2, it says that males and females were created. So one could argue that this is a reference to premortal existence of gender. This, however, is not dispositive and open to interpretation. For example, Joseph F. Smith didn't believe that the creation account in chapter 2 referred to a spiritual creation. It's clear to those of us that embrace the documentary hypothesis that the reference to a spiritual creation in chapter 3 is a harmonizing interpolation between the P and J creation accounts in Genesis, but that doesn't make the idea of a spiritual creation untrue. One could argue that if all things were created spiritually before they were created physically, that would include opposing sexual traits. The genetic aberrations and other aspects of the "frail mortal shell" that Jeff referred to would also have a spiritual counterpart, calling into question the idea that some people have physical traits that deviate from their spirits. So it depends on how far we want to push the definition of "all things" when referring to spiritual creation. <br /><br />Aside from this and references to the gender of the premortal Christ, I'm not aware of any other canonical unambiguous reference to premortal gender. As you rightly point out, a lot of LDS doctrine about premortal gender is, by apologists' criteria, "unofficial." Kadmonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-68411697737422489622012-09-10T08:59:23.545-05:002012-09-10T08:59:23.545-05:00How do we sort out the real from the imagined? Or ...<i>How do we sort out the real from the imagined? Or cases of self-deception?</i><br /><br />What has been suggested in Jeff's post is quite simply that we trust intersexed individuals to know who they are.<br /><br />Consider the fact that if you or I claim to know, on the basis of our own feelings and experiences, that we are heterosexual, no one calls us out on our claim. No one suggests we are engaging in self-deception. No one demands some kind of outside verification of our self-knowledge.<br /><br />Is it too much to ask that we extend the same respect to those whose feelings and experiences tell them they are transsexual?<br /><br />This would seem to me to be a basic application of the Sermon on the Mount: "Do not unto others as you would not have done unto you."<br /><br />This is not a matter of condoning any particular kind of behavior, but merely a matter of trusting others, just as we trust ourselves, to know who they essentially are.<br /><br /><i>...scientists simply have no way of knowing for sure what one physical characteristic is the sole determinant of a person's gender...</i><br /><br />We shouldn't necessarily assume that there even <i>is</i> a "sole determinant" of gender. Things might be that simple in the spiritual realm, if one wants to believe in such, but given the physical evidence to the contrary there's no particular reason to think that way about the material realm. As Jeff said, it's complex. (Things always seem to be simpler in the spiritual realm--that would appear to be one of its attractions.)<br /><br />As an outsider, I think it's going to be fascinating to watch this all play out. In addition to the Church's official doctrine, there are a number of Mormon folk beliefs as well as beliefs uncritically imported from the larger culture. (Of course, this is true of any religion.) Think of the earlier situation concerning blacks and the priesthood. The notion that black people were excluded from the priesthood because they were less than valiant in the war in heaven was never actual doctrine; even though the idea was promulgated by any number of high-ranking Church leaders, it was only a Mormon folk belief.<br /><br />The parallel idea, once widespread among Mormons, that blacks were unworthy of the priesthood because they were descendants of Ham, was an idea imported from the larger culture (this so-called "Hamitic theory" was widely popular in 19th-century America).<br /><br />The LDS Church has done a pretty good job, I think, of untangling its old racial folk beliefs and cultural prejudices from its actual racial doctrine (which is now quite respectably liberal). It'll be fascinating to watch the Church do the same as it works its way through the thickets of gender.<br /><br />All of which brings me back to the questions asked by First Anonymous and seconded by Janice: "How do we sort out the real from the imagined? Or cases of self-deception?" These are questions the Church will be asking not just about the intersexed but about itself.<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76843604896031074442012-09-09T23:13:57.716-05:002012-09-09T23:13:57.716-05:00"Question: any idea what percentage of people..."Question: any idea what percentage of people are born with gender identity problems built into their bodies? Around 1% or 0.5% maybe?"<br /><br />That's probably a good guess.<br /><br />"How do we sort out the real from the imagined? Or cases of self-deception?"<br /><br />My extremely quick answer to that is that the real cases will generally have some sort of biological/medical indicator (or more than one) that something skews away from their apparent sex.<br /><br />"If I understand rightly, the canonical scriptural sources on pre-existence are in D&C, but I don't recall anything there about gender in premortality."<br /><br />I suppose that depends on if we accept the teachings of the Proclamation as coming from inspired apostles and prophets. It may or may not matter to the present gender issue. The reason it is likely important to the gender issue for LDS people is that scientists simply have no way of knowing for sure what one physical characteristic is the sole determinant of a person's gender, but in LDS theology if we believe that a person's spirit has gender then that likely trumps all physical characteristics.<br /><br />"A lot of things are said about science and studies pertaining to gender identity problems but not who did the studies and where these studies have been published."<br /><br />It is my understanding that Jeff is going to get into this more in a future blog entries of his. I think he may have thought that people would go to ldsgender.com and find the information that is there, especially on the <a href="http://ldsgender.wordpress.com/resources-and-links/" rel="nofollow">Resources and Links</a> page. But even what is there is only a small smattering of all the information available. Even more can be found <a href="http://aebrain.blogspot.com/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> but there is still more beyond that.LDS Genderhttp://ldsgender.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-35289374405093347702012-09-09T21:07:08.222-05:002012-09-09T21:07:08.222-05:00I agree with first Anonymous: "how do we sor...I agree with first Anonymous: "how do we sort out the real from the imagined?" "Or cases of self-deception?" I also agree we need to be compassionate, I really do. Having been exposed to DES, di-ethylstilbestrol, and having major emotional grief and untold physical and health problems because of it, as well as taking a good chunk of my money because of it, I would like to know where to find the studies where certain drugs can cause gender identity problems.<br />A lot of things are said about science and studies pertaining to gender identity problems but not who did the studies and where these studies have been published.Janicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-78575073214327598692012-09-09T20:48:18.002-05:002012-09-09T20:48:18.002-05:00I was wondering the same thing as Tony. If I under...I was wondering the same thing as Tony. If I understand rightly, the canonical scriptural sources on pre-existence are in D&C, but I don't recall anything there about gender in premortality. But maybe I'm missing something.<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-91310547245157570142012-09-09T20:22:11.722-05:002012-09-09T20:22:11.722-05:00Jeff,
Your statement that, "Our gender preda...Jeff,<br /><br />Your statement that, "Our gender predates our birth," is certainly a belief shared by most Mormons, but does it come from a canonized source? The Proclamation on the Family is not canonized. Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-7431242018626568902012-09-09T19:44:15.429-05:002012-09-09T19:44:15.429-05:00Question: any idea what percentage of people are b...Question: any idea what percentage of people are born with gender identity problems built into their bodies? Around 1% or 0.5% maybe? Any way of really telling?<br /><br />How do we sort out the real from the imagined? Or cases of self-deception?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com