tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post3444937475439072082..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Two Paths in a Complex BookJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-20648050901437872902012-04-26T16:55:33.606-05:002012-04-26T16:55:33.606-05:00Wow. That was very in-depth. I love the Book of Mo...Wow. That was very in-depth. I love the <a href="http://mormon.org/book-of-mormon/" rel="nofollow">Book of Mormon</a> so much. It's great to see all of the discussion here.sstohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14813472741921242948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32207720159401904452012-01-08T22:42:22.740-06:002012-01-08T22:42:22.740-06:00Openminded;
Thank you for the heads up. I respon...Openminded;<br /><br />Thank you for the heads up. I responded to that post and I'm glad to hear you had a good new years celebration.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9929515630389269922012-01-08T22:31:23.982-06:002012-01-08T22:31:23.982-06:00Certainly am happy for the fisherman, but not sure...<i>Certainly am happy for the fisherman, but not sure if that success story justifies all these years of unnecessary war in nations that didn't attack us.</i><br /><br />Nobody supports an unjustified war. While I too question the wisdom of encouraging wars between two nations (Iran and Iraq) in the name of world-wide stability, I think the world has benefitted immensly from military action by the US, even upon nations which never attacked us. South Korea is a prime example of this Also, our nation-building efforts in Japan has undoubtedly benefitted the world immensly. I know places like Vietnam wasa flop but to me that comes down to our determination to win. If we don't have it then we should not use the troops in the first place. <br /><br />And, yes, that was excellent photoshopping. You almost conmvinced me. ;>)<br /><br />The reason I posted that link was to reinforce that while I do support preemptive strikes against Iran via their choice in pursuing nuclear weapons, I do not support branding Iranians as bad justbecause they are iranians. I do not even like the propaganda used against Nazis and the Japanese though I fully support our efforts to fight against them in WWII. (btw, we were never attacked by Germany in the manner the Japanese attacked us before declarng war on them. They declared war on us, like Islamists have declared war on us, and thus we declared war on them). iranians are as much a child of God as you and I. I only support indentifyingthe bad guys and neutralizing their threat. At tmes that means militarily.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76275655752631512512012-01-08T07:44:28.760-06:002012-01-08T07:44:28.760-06:00Nice photo, Darren. But if you'll look closely...Nice photo, Darren. But if you'll look closely, you'll see it's actually a photo of Hugo Chavez meeting Barack Obama. Generally skillful use of PhotoShop, but the sloppy breaks in ocean level give it all away. <br /><br />:)<br /><br />Certainly am happy for the fisherman, but not sure if that success story justifies all these years of unnecessary war in nations that didn't attack us.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-91768870552701210952012-01-08T00:38:56.898-06:002012-01-08T00:38:56.898-06:00(also, Darren, I finally responded to your comment...(also, Darren, I finally responded to your comment in that other post. sorry I've been gone for a few days!)Openmindednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31721427864418623122012-01-08T00:37:37.630-06:002012-01-08T00:37:37.630-06:00When I think of beauty and poeticism, I think more...When I think of beauty and poeticism, I think more along the lines of Buddhism and its teachings about peace.<br /><br />I don't think that lends it anymore truth to it.<br /><br />this whole subject is a non-issue, just watch me spin opinion in the way <i>anyone</i> can spin it:<br /><br />Smith wrote something overly simplistic. Obviously the work of man.<br /><br />(or)<br /><br />Smith wrote something beautiful? well he was a creative genius, didn't you hear about the stories he told over the dinner table?!<br /><br />See? non-issue. the beauty of a text, or lack thereof, doesn't prove a thing in either direction. maybe God speaks simply? maybe he speaks poetically? <br /><br />since when did anyone know?<br /><br />this probably paints too broad of a brush in some cases, but definitely not in this one.<br /><br />this book of mormon is worth whatever the person thinks it's worth. I bet it would never mean a thing to your testimony that others dont join the church because of the book. in fact, i'm almost willing to bet it would strengthen some idea you have about God choosing only some people to come to an understanding of the truth, or some other mess like thatOpenmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-67417149782795843012012-01-07T16:34:07.692-06:002012-01-07T16:34:07.692-06:00At several points in the BoM, both the Nephites an...<i>At several points in the BoM, both the Nephites and Lamanites take up arms and take the fight _to_ the Gadianton robbers.</i><br /><br />Yup. <br /><br /><i>I think that's the better analogy to modern terrorism.</i><br /><br />Yup.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30785203446059568632012-01-07T16:08:36.008-06:002012-01-07T16:08:36.008-06:00Take in everything I said about Iran and look at t...Take in everything I said about Iran and look at this article. It's things like this tha make me proud of my country and what we stand for.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.theblaze.com/stories/this-is-the-photo-of-an-iranian-fisherman-hugging-a-u-s-sailor-after-being-rescued-from-pirates/" rel="nofollow">This Is the Photo of an Iranian Fisherman Hugging a U.S. Sailor After Being Rescued From Pirates</a>Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41119373908632012732012-01-06T18:03:02.923-06:002012-01-06T18:03:02.923-06:00At several points in the BoM, both the Nephites an...At several points in the BoM, both the Nephites and Lamanites take up arms and take the fight _to_ the Gadianton robbers. <br /><br />I think that's the better analogy to modern terrorism.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88108627523177059712012-01-06T15:12:30.803-06:002012-01-06T15:12:30.803-06:00Eveningsun, you pointed this out as a false dicho...Eveningsun, you pointed this out as a false dichotomy " do we choose God and life, or something else?"<br />This would be a false dichotomy if Jeff were referring to biological mortal life. My guess is that Jeff was referring here to eternal life in which case the apparent false dichotomy disappears. Maybe he would be willing to clarify? <br /><br />I agree with Nibley lacks “economy” in his writting. I think however we would all be able to make meaningful points with fewer words if we all made more of an effort to try to understand the message that others are trying to convey instead of getting so hung up on wording.<br /><br /><br />You then pointed out that Nibley didn't say, "None may commit his decision to the judgement of a faction, a party, a leader, a nation, or a church." <br /><br />I think you missed his point altogether. He is saying that no one can blame anyone else for their decisions, no matter what group we belong to, in the end we are responsible for our own actions and that is it. He never said it was bad to be a member of a party or to follow a leader, only that he doesn't think God will buy if we try to push our guilt onto the groups that we affiliate with. <br /> <br />Actually though, just 2 paragraphs later he does specifically criticize “Churchmen” for the “us vs them” mentality that so easily arises. Although I find Nibley’s writings tedious to get through, something I do like is that he challenges traditions that he doesn’t see as scriptural, both inside and outside the church, quite indiscriminately.mkprrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409950642803422998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15743871777004341782012-01-06T08:59:36.849-06:002012-01-06T08:59:36.849-06:00...do we choose atheism and reason, or something e...<i>...do we choose atheism and reason, or something else...</i><br /><br />That's a false dichotomy. Atheism doesn't have a corner on reason.Popsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74792869060112211162012-01-05T23:47:19.816-06:002012-01-05T23:47:19.816-06:00Jeff;
I really like the "black and white&quo...Jeff;<br /><br />I really like the "black and white" depiction of salvation you painted and how you wove Nibley's scholarship to help paint that deiction. One of the most valuable aspects of scriptures to me is the diconomy of accepting Christ oor not. That there is not middle ground for not fully accepting and following Christ does lead souls to eternal regret. likewise, fully accepting and following Christ leads souls to the upmost happiness in the eternities.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74446199601002082992012-01-05T23:44:14.924-06:002012-01-05T23:44:14.924-06:00As you read Nibley's discussion, I hope you...<i>As you read Nibley's discussion, I hope you'll all apply it to our day and to issues like preemptive military strikes against foreign nations.</i><br /><br />Ohhhhh Jeff, that may open a can of worms. I for one am very much support preemptive strikes as well as for nation building. I do so under the process of identifying an enemy and destroying them and/or their threat. The part of the Book of Mormon which the Nephites want to take up weapons seems to be focused on vengence and extinguishing an entire people, just because they of that people. This I do not support. However, if there are those within another nation who possess a threat to my, my nation, and/or my countrymen, then, yes, strike at it if necessary. Besides, I do not look to the Book of Mormon's military stories as a guidline for fighting modern-day wars; but I do find them inmensly useful to fight spiritual wars.<br /><br />To reinforce what I just said, let's take Iran as an example. I hold to the view that it's way past time to strike their nuclear development. They undoubtfully support terrorist gropus who have and will strike at the US and they themselves have killed US troops both directly and indirectly in Iraq (regardless if you opposed or supported that war, I ran had no business there fighting our troops). I do not support anihilating Iran, nor to kill Iranians just because they are Iranians. I do support nullifyng their nuclear threat. <br /><br />Here's a question I frequently offer those who support a non-interventionist position. And consider this question rhetorical if you or anyone else does not want to answer it: if the Us never entered World War II and information were elaked regarding the Nazi death camps complete wit the gut-wretching photos of the mal-treatment and mass murders of the prisoners, especially those of Jewish ethnicity, would you support intervening militarily in any way? I know my absolute answer but others may not agree with mine.<br /><br />(Sorry if I'm going of topic again but here I'm simply responding to your open challenge)Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-22980128043983179182012-01-05T23:29:56.739-06:002012-01-05T23:29:56.739-06:00Eveningsun;
I could play the same game. I could w...Eveningsun;<br /><br /><i>I could play the same game. I could write things like this: "the complexity of life still involves an ultimate choice between opposing forces: do we choose atheism and reason, or something else?"</i><br /><br />That's fine if you played that game so long as you're open for response to it. While accepting atheism is not inherently a rejection of life. You may recall I cited a certain logger "mharper" who replied to my sharing your Numbers 22 (I think it was that chapter) post and she is an atheist whom I greatly admire and using lots of reason and greatly respects life. But, like all atheists, and believers as well, she will at some point of her eternal existence, learn of the true gospel of Jesus Christ and thus be in a position to choose to accept it or reject it. Her choice will be no different than your choice or my choice. Coming unto Christ through covenant is the only path to receive all of the Father's graceful eternal blessings. Thus is or eternal dichonomy.<br /><br />What you're doing seems to be passing immediate jugement upon people if they hav accepted or rejected Jesus Christ. I don't think that's Jeff's mindset and truth be known, nobody knows whether or not anybody's truly had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ. Just because you're atheist, I do not think anybody here *thus* concludes that you have rejected Christ. I sure don't. Such a judgement falls to God and the individual. <br /><br /><i>Yet to be a member of a church and the follower of a prophet is very much to be a member of a party. To "commit [one's] decision" to a church and its prophet and its scriptures is every bit as much a delegation of one's agency as is a commitment to a party, leader, or nation.</i><br /><br />A true church will not use any force upon others to join it. You cannot say the same for false churches or for non-church organizations. <br /><br /><i>Confronted with a challenge to their worldview, how many Mormons turn as reflexively to the LDS Scriptures (or to FAIR, or to Hugh Nibley)</i><br /><br />Notice you didn't say FAIR, Nibley, or <i>Lindsey</i>. such aphorisms will not be tolerated in these parts. ;>) <br /><br />/juuuust kidding<br /><br />On a more serious note, Mormons also resort to prayer. I've found that very useful in my life.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33816473536855544542012-01-05T22:26:32.651-06:002012-01-05T22:26:32.651-06:00P.S. Jeff, I did appreciate your comments about &q...P.S. Jeff, I did appreciate your comments about "preemptive military strikes against foreign nations." I'm a Democrat, but I definitely have a soft spot for Ron Paul.<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14161410619261236342012-01-05T22:23:19.541-06:002012-01-05T22:23:19.541-06:00In a comment on the previous post, I argued that w...In a comment on the previous post, I argued that what Jeff was calling "diversity" was really "shallow dichotomy." In this post, Jeff seems to have responded by admitting that "dichotomy" is indeed the right term, but that dichotomy is not shallow. He would have us believe that dichotomous thinking is good, apparently because it was practiced and extolled by some of the ancients and can be given a fancy title, The Doctrine of the Two Ways.<br /><br />Jeff then obligingly illustrates one of the main problems with dichotomous thinking, namely, how easily it allows one to slip into the fallacious (and often argumentatively dishonest) <i>false</i> dichotomy, as when he writes, "the complexity of life still involves an ultimate choice between opposing forces: do we choose God and life, or something else?"<br /><br />Notice how easily "God and life" are lumped together and then <i>opposed</i> to the other possibilities, as if I, by being an atheist, do not simply disbelieve in God, but actually <i>oppose</i> God, and oppose "life" as well.<br /><br />I could play the same game. I could write things like this: "the complexity of life still involves an ultimate choice between opposing forces: do we choose atheism and reason, or something else?"<br /><br />But I don't write things like that, at least I try not to, because I understand that it's simplistic and unfair. I understand that Mormons, in rejecting atheism, do not at the same time reject reason. (Maybe Jeff really <i>does</i> think that I oppose life, but somehow I doubt it.)<br /><br />As for Hugh Nibley... Much of what he says (with so little grace, and even less economy) is captured in the aphorism, "The line between good and evil runs through every human heart." For many great writers this is a given, a starting point; for Nibley it has the air of a conclusion, arrived at only after great cogitation.<br /><br />Nibley says that "None may commit his decision to the judgement of a faction, a party, a leader, or a nation; none can delegate his free agency to another."<br /><br />Sounds great, at least at first. But did anyone notice what's missing? Anyone notice what Nibley <i>didn't</i> say?<br /><br />He <i>didn't</i> say, "None may commit his decision to the judgement of a faction, a party, a leader, a nation, or a <i>church</i>."<br /><br />Yet to be a member of a church and the follower of a prophet is very much to be a member of a party. To "commit [one's] decision" to a church and its prophet and its scriptures is every bit as much a delegation of one's agency as is a commitment to a party, leader, or nation.<br /><br />Confronted with a challenge to their worldview, how many Mormons turn as reflexively to the LDS Scriptures (or to FAIR, or to Hugh Nibley) as the Muslim to his Koran or the old-line communist to <i>Das Kapital</i>? Rather than committing so consistently and exclusively to one's own, it's far better to read and learn from the literary and philosophical patrimony of all humankind. (This is more or less what I was suggesting earlier when I invited people to evaluate the Book of Mormon's treatment of war by reading the <i>Iliad</i>, <i>War and Peace</i>, <i>All Quiet on the Western Front</i>, and so on.)<br /><br />As for the depth, sophistication, and beauty of the Book of Mormon, especially apropos its treatment of war, I invite everyone to read, in addition to the works I just mentioned, Robert Alter's <i>The David Story</i> (Alter's translation and commentary on 1 and 2 Samuel). Then make your own comparison.<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-34401049070101119232012-01-05T16:26:46.130-06:002012-01-05T16:26:46.130-06:00As you read Nibley's discussion, I hope you...As you read Nibley's discussion, I hope you'll all apply it to our day and to issues like preemptive military strikes against foreign nations. It's right there in the Book of Mormon, as the wicked but self-righteous Nephites urged a preemtive strike to wipe out the threat of the Lamanites: "And moreover they did say: Let us take up arms against them, that we destroy them and their iniquity out of the land, lest they overrun us and destroy us" (Alma 26:25). Thank God for a man like Ammon who realized that there are better ways to deal with hostile people than killing them. If only we had more such men today.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-40722966929817102012-01-05T16:15:16.064-06:002012-01-05T16:15:16.064-06:00That's fine, Bookslinger - actually a very goo...That's fine, Bookslinger - actually a very good idea. Much of Nibley's works are available electronically at the Maxwell Institute, but there's nothing like holding a real book in your hands and making margin notes. Soome of Nibley's views have been updated with better information. His expertise was in the Old World, so his assumptions regarding large-scale geography in Since Cumorah should be considered superseded by the Limited Geography Theory centered in Mesoamerica, but man, his weaving of Old World information to illustrate the ancient paradigms and motifs in the Book of Mormon can be breathtaking. Or confusing. Enjoy, but always with many grains of salt.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74168369932766477162012-01-05T14:49:54.459-06:002012-01-05T14:49:54.459-06:00Jeff, with your permission, I'd like to includ...Jeff, with your permission, I'd like to include links to 9 of Hugh Nibley's books at Amazon. You won't hurt my feelings if you decide to delete this. (I'm encoding the links so a local non-profit veterans organization gets an Amazon Associates commission on the sales.)<br /><br />Not all of Nibley's works below are directly related to the Book of Mormon, but they build up to it in the 9 volume series.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875790321/vietveteofamer29/ref=nosim" rel="nofollow">Old Testament and Related Studies (Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 1) (Hardcover), Hugh Nibley.</a> ISBN: 0875790321.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/087579047X/vietveteofamer29/ref=nosim" rel="nofollow">Enoch the Prophet (Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 2) (Hardcover) Hugh Nibley (Author), Stephen D. Ricks (Editor).</a> ISBN: 087579047X <br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/087579078X/vietveteofamer29/ref=nosim" rel="nofollow">The World and the Prophets (The Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 3) (Hardcover) Hugh Nibley.</a> ISBN: 087579078X <br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875791271/vietveteofamer29/ref=nosim" rel="nofollow">Mormonism and Early Christianity (Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 4) (Hardcover), Hugh Nibley, Todd M. Compton, Stephen D. Ricks.</a> ISBN: 0875791271.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875791328/vietveteofamer29/ref=nosim" rel="nofollow">Lehi in the Desert, the World of the Jaredites, There Were Jaredites (Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 5) (Hardcover) Hugh Nibley (Author), John W. Welch (Editor), Darrell L. Matthews (Editor), Stephen R. Callister (Editor).</a> ISBN: 0875791328.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875791387/vietveteofamer29/ref=nosim" rel="nofollow">An Approach to the Book of Mormon (Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 6) (Hardcover) Hugh Nibley, John W. Welch.</a> ISBN: 0875791387.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875791395/vietveteofamer29/ref=nosim" rel="nofollow">Since Cumorah (Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 7) (Hardcover) Hugh Nibley, John W. Welch.</a> ISBN: 0875791395.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875791794/vietveteofamer29/ref=nosim" rel="nofollow">The Prophetic Book of Mormon (Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 8) (Hardcover) Hugh Nibley.</a> ISBN: 0875791794.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875792529/vietveteofamer29/ref=nosim" rel="nofollow">Approaching Zion (The Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 9) (Hardcover) Hugh Nibley (Author), Don E. Norton (Editor).</a> ISBN: 0875792529. A very popular book among Nibley fans.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-68503773691871666502012-01-05T10:42:52.781-06:002012-01-05T10:42:52.781-06:00Thanks for that amazing post! I was drawn in from ...Thanks for that amazing post! I was drawn in from the beginning, and stayed riveted to the end. I can't wait until I can share your (and bro. Nibley's) words with my wife. I loved how you were able to illustrate the fine line between good and evil, sinner and saint. I know that I might never arrive at the destination, but I pray that I will be facing the right direction...rickplattshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14290060751297998669noreply@blogger.com