tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post4088074198687217593..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Christianity's Bailout: Lessons from ConstantineJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-86653723534221673542009-01-31T19:31:00.000-06:002009-01-31T19:31:00.000-06:00It's peripheral to the intent of your post, but......It's peripheral to the intent of your post, but...<BR/><BR/>I remember reading, and cannot find it in my notes where I read it, that the Nicene "of one substance" was actually a compromise. In the Greek it is unclear whether it means the exact same substance, or the same kind of substance. Each interpretation was backed by fairly large factions in the council.<BR/><BR/>That the exact same substance interpretation won over time, is historical accident, if winning an argument that goes on for several centuries can be termed accidental.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81952839074289666652009-01-20T11:04:00.000-06:002009-01-20T11:04:00.000-06:00CD, you raise a good point. The Nicene Creed is la...CD, you raise a good point. The Nicene Creed is largely acceptable - it's the metaphysical Trinitarian implications of "one substance" that pose particular challenges, along with the denial of subordinate status for the Son, who is, after all, a begotten Son who came to do not His will, but the will of the Father. The "proceeding" aspect of the Holy Ghost also brings us back to puzzling metaphysics. But 90% of the Creed is fine with us. <BR/><BR/>I altered the post with an update in that section, clarifying that we accept most of the Nicene Creed, and that it's some of the later creeds that are especially problematic. <BR/><BR/>FWIW, here is the original passage I had written and now clarified. My original statement better fits the later Athanasian Creed than the Nicene Creed. <BR/><BR/><I>The result, not surprisingly, was a creed that would describe the Godhead using concepts much at home among the dominating Neo-Platonic philosophy of the day but rather foreign to New Testament Christianity. The Hellenized, metaphysical God of the Nicene Creed arguably would be unrecognizable to the disciples of Christ, who saw and handled His resurrected body, and one of whom saw Christ standing on the right hand of God. </I>Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60286576875652915092009-01-20T07:32:00.000-06:002009-01-20T07:32:00.000-06:00HI Jeff, As a Catholic, I am rather familiar with...HI Jeff, <BR/><BR/>As a Catholic, I am rather familiar with the Niocene Creed; we recite it in mass every week. What aspect of the God described in that creed is unfamiliar to the God of the bible. We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty...that's the preamble. Look to the bible, and Christian beliefs...how is this not the God described in the bible? <BR/><BR/>Continue on...we believe in Jesus Christ, the only begotten son...again, this is in keeping with the Christian teachings that Jesus is the son of God. <BR/><BR/>We believe in the Holy Spirit...seems that St. Paul, and Jesus talk about the Holy Spirit at length. Plus you see the workings of the spirit throughout the New Testament. <BR/><BR/>We believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church...one universal church led by the apostlate. What isn't in keeping with the Christian teachings there? Frankly, your faith follows many of these teachings and beliefs. There is a disagreement over the Trinitarian view...but your church subscribes to the three members of the Godhead, the universal nature of the church, and the established leadership of the apostles. Just a few thoughts to ponder.<BR/><BR/>Sincerely<BR/><BR/>Catholic DefenderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14105613235053113552009-01-19T15:59:00.000-06:002009-01-19T15:59:00.000-06:00Regarding the idea of the church ever needing a fe...Regarding the idea of the church ever needing a federal bailout...<BR/><BR/>I would hope that if the church ever got into such dire financial straits that, as a matter of principle, it would choose bankruptcy over bailout. I'd rather the members be required to dig themselves out of the problem than become enslaved to the fed or any other outside entity.<BR/><BR/>Why can't our politicians trust/require the American people to do the same? (that is rhetorical, by the way)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-86675689355375778952009-01-19T11:23:00.000-06:002009-01-19T11:23:00.000-06:00Jeff....your posts are always so outstanding. You...Jeff....your posts are always so outstanding. Your blog is the only Mormon authored blog I follow "religiously." Thanks so much.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13957048824895089900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45285082658374178832009-01-19T10:25:00.000-06:002009-01-19T10:25:00.000-06:00Excellent analogy! or is it a metaphor? so confu...Excellent analogy! or is it a metaphor? so confusing...<BR/><BR/>On pre-requisites: I dont believe life occurs in a linear fashion that requires certain pre-requisites. It is tempting to view history and declare that it had to happen how it happened, but I dont think that idea is correct. <BR/><BR/>I view life more like a game of chess with many choices, many paths and many possible outcomes. Since agency is a governing principle, and evil is a consequence of misguided agency, then "...it must needs be that offences come...". Translation: people are going to make poor choices and create bad situations. God does not depend on or require evil to acheive good, but since people are capable of creating both good and evil, God is naturally going to use both outcomes to further his work, turning a negative situation others chose to create into a positive situation. <BR/><BR/>Basically, God is an active player in the game of life-chess, seeing all the possibilities, staying many steps ahead, making his moves in real-time as others make their choices on the board.<BR/><BR/>Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but that is how I make sense of it.<BR/><BR/>And yes, pray that Mormons never place themselves in a position that requires a Federal bailout...SlalomHOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12938903054435581393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-70313255563000618132009-01-19T07:59:00.000-06:002009-01-19T07:59:00.000-06:00Very significant aspects of the Apostasy occurred ...Very significant aspects of the Apostasy occurred long before Constantine, I absolutely agree. Hellenization was well underway, prophecy had been lost, etc. My focus on Constantine and the "bailout" for this post was not meant to offer a complete review of the Apostasy and its origins, but rather to point to the trouble of government help to private institutions. Pray that the Mormons never get a Federal bailout!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36893646305675439652009-01-19T06:29:00.000-06:002009-01-19T06:29:00.000-06:00I'm afraid that, by the time Constantine's bailout...I'm afraid that, by the time Constantine's bailout rolled around. Christianity had long since been sold by its founders and the new stockholders, instead of listening to their chairman and board of directors, cared less for the integrity of the business than for profit. They didn't want to know what went on, just so long as someone sent them a check every month.<BR/><BR/>The Hellenization of Christianity, if it was as big a factor in the Apostasy as we Mormons think its was, happened 100-200 years before Constantine. Neverthtless, Hellenized and other varieties of Judaism were arguably more culpable candidates for the corruption of Apostolic doctrine. But both Judaism and Hellenism were small fry, IMO, compared with dissent, rebellion and doctrinal innovation within the Christian ranks. Roman persecution, if it happened at all on a large scale before Diocletian, was a far greater strengthening factor compared with disunity from within.<BR/><BR/>In short, Jeff, I like your point about politicians and the government bailout, but I don't think your Christian history is entirely accurate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-35207591485105415402009-01-19T02:48:00.000-06:002009-01-19T02:48:00.000-06:00Arguably, the Jewish apostasy was a prerequisite t...Arguably, the Jewish apostasy was a prerequisite to the Atonement, too. <BR/><BR/><I>ΒΆ Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!</I><BR/><BR/>It seems that in this fallen world lots of good things are tied to the acts of evil men, or at least evil acts of men. <BR/><BR/>This observation has caused major dilemmas for great Christian thinkers over the years, as God depending on evil to achieve good seems to make evil less evil or even a necessary (good?) thing.<BR/><BR/>I certainly don't have an answer to this; maybe Jeff does?Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50548903466661108282009-01-19T00:17:00.000-06:002009-01-19T00:17:00.000-06:00Arguably, Constantine's promulgation of Christiani...Arguably, Constantine's promulgation of Christianity was a prerequisite to the restoration. Without it, Catholicism wouldn't have spread far enough to reach those oppressed by its system to engender protestantism. And without the multiplication of various sects, Joseph wouldn't have turned to James for enlightenment.<BR/><BR/>There's always two sides to one coin.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00147401616586746607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56275185194427025132009-01-18T22:19:00.000-06:002009-01-18T22:19:00.000-06:00Jeff Lindsay for President, 2012!! I never cons...Jeff Lindsay for President, 2012!!<BR/> I never considered the money aspect of Constintine's acceptance of Christianity. But it makes total sense. <BR/> Great insights!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com