tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post4344961195058462516..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Grace and the Temple: Insights from a Jewish ScholarJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77754342572229235182015-05-15T16:13:10.719-05:002015-05-15T16:13:10.719-05:00Jeff's post deals more on doctrine than sensib...<i>Jeff's post deals more on doctrine than sensibilities.</i><br /><br />Yes, absolutely. I would go further and say that most if not all of Jeff's posts -- at least the ones that generate the most heated comments -- deal with doctrine, and few if any with sensibility. And the same seems to be true of Mormon-Evangelical debate.<br /><br />I wonder why that's the case. Doctrine is important, but it's not everything. Maybe it's not even the main thing. We tend to think of a religion's truth as the truth of its doctrine, but maybe that's too limiting a way to think about it. Maybe religious truth should be thought of as residing elsewhere -- in its lived experience, perhaps, in its affect on the world, or even in its characteristic sensibility.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-28074234042924354452015-05-15T15:35:36.559-05:002015-05-15T15:35:36.559-05:00Orbiting Kolob,
I understand now how sensibility ...Orbiting Kolob,<br /><br />I understand now how sensibility is being used. If I can restate, Mormonism does not fit in the same cultural paradigm as Judaism nor Catholicism nor evangelical Christianity in a similar way the the culture of the United States is different than Mexican culture. Both countries believe (more or less) in the democratic process, have similar structures of government but at the end of the day, one is clearly American ( of the United States flavor) and the other Mexican. So, one would not expect to see a piece like Fiddler on the Roof be written by a Mormon nor would you expect an evangelical Christian being able to capture the essence of the Mormon trek across the plains.<br /><br />But, I think Jeff's post deals more on doctrine than sensibilities.<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83090932308029892412015-05-14T11:08:14.389-05:002015-05-14T11:08:14.389-05:00Anon, in addition to the verse in Ezekiel there ar...Anon, in addition to the verse in Ezekiel there are several other reasons for reading the Sodom and Gomorrah story as I do (and as many others do). For one thing, there's the ancient Middle Eastern tradition of hospitality as a supreme virtue.<br /><br />For another, there's the question of whether to read the townspeople's threat of rape literally or figuratively. That is, should we understand the threat of rape as just the threat of rape, or should we understand it as standing for something more? If we understand it literally, then we must also understand Lot's offer of his virgin daughters literally -- which, to put it mildly, makes no sense, since we already know that Lot is the good guy of the story.<br /><br />What <i>does</i> make sense is to read Lot's offer figuratively. That is, it stands for something else, and ergo the townspeople's threat of rape also stands for something else.<br /><br />What might that "something else" be? The most logical choices are hospitality and inhospitality.<br /><br />If you insist on reading these verses literally, then you must believe that Lot was literally willing to turn his virgin daughters out of the house to literally be gang-raped, and that a father who would literally do this is literally a good man.<br /><br />How can you possibly believe such things?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-2489859118758002742015-05-14T10:44:11.703-05:002015-05-14T10:44:11.703-05:00OK writes: "this idea that Mormon beliefs can...OK writes: "this idea that Mormon beliefs can be validated by appealing to ancient Judaism strikes me as really strange" "there seems very little that is even remotely Jewish about Mormonism" "[there is] nothing Jewish about the Book of Mormon".<br /><br />I have determined that OK lacks sound judgment and is sadly an unreliable analyst. I had suspected it but it became clear when he stated that he took the sin of Sodom to not be homosexuality but inhospitality and greed. To hold this view one must ignore the totality of the evidence and cherry-pick from one verse in Ezekiel. There are a number of biblical passages that say otherwise and OK must also ignore the reasoned views of thousands of highly literate thinkers from the distant and not-too-distant past on this issue.<br /><br />OK writes well but is difficult and will almost always disagree with something Mormon, rarely admitting that quite often an approach is reasonable or understandable after some reflection and analysis. When an issue in isolation is inconclusive, rationally or logically -- which is the rule -- he will disagree and write rather extensively, meandering his way to nowhere.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-79368277710365610822015-05-13T16:39:16.354-05:002015-05-13T16:39:16.354-05:00Anon, I know a guy who grew up Mormon and is now a...Anon, I know a guy who grew up Mormon and is now an atheist, and he credits his Mormon upbringing for teaching him how to think his way out of his faith. I'm not sure what that's about, but I do know it's not an argument.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-59527333872401875862015-05-13T16:19:10.139-05:002015-05-13T16:19:10.139-05:00Kolobber, I met a guy six years ago who's abou...Kolobber, I met a guy six years ago who's about 60, grew up north of Boston in a Jewish family, became a Mormon, has endured real pushback from his family, ridicule from his father, and he tells me that he thinks Mormonism is the completion of Judaism. What's that all about?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-11722400091682080022015-05-13T11:56:37.930-05:002015-05-13T11:56:37.930-05:00Steve, as far as I know I did not "label a gr...Steve, as far as I know I did not "label a group of people deficient because of what they believe in."<br /><br />Here I guess I need to clarify what I mean by <i>sensibility</i>. I'm using this term to refer to the "capacity for intellectual and aesthetic distinctions, feelings, tastes, etc." (Dictionary.com) -- but with an added twist, namely, that there's such a thing as a Jewish sensibility, a Mormon sensibility, etc. That is, to some extent, certain kinds of "aesthetic distinctions, feelings, tastes, etc." tend to be shared by members of certain groups, including certain religious groups. (I'm not alone in using the term in this way; lots of intellectuals do so.)<br /><br />Anyway, it is in this sense that I speak of a Jewish sensibility, a Mormon sensibility, and so on. It has nothing to do with being "sensible" in the sense of "practical," etc.<br /><br />Part of my larger point here is that we can learn something new by getting away from using what people "believe in" (that is, doctrine) as an analytical category in the first place, and using "sensibility" instead.<br /><br />Think about what Jeff believes in and what the bloggers at Feminist Mormon Housewives believe in. Some of those doctrinal beliefs will be the same, some quite different. We can certainly enhance our understanding by discussing those similarities/differences of belief. But we can also learn a lot by thinking about their similarities/differences in <i>sensibility</i> as I'm using the term.<br /><br />Example: I would say that the FMH tagline, "Angry activists with peaches to can," is <i>very</i> Mormon in sensibility. I cannot even imagine a Jewish group, or even any other Christian group, using that line, just as I cannot imagine a Mormon writing something like <i>Fiddler on the Roof</i>.<br /><br />The reason we recognize "Angry activists with peaches to can" as Mormon has much less to do with Mormon doctrinal beliefs than it does with a Mormon sensibility rooted in Mormon culture and values and history. The same is true of, say, a Woody Allen film, which we recognize as Jewish for reasons having much less to do with Allen's doctrinal beliefs (if he even has any) than with Jewish-American culture/values/history.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-64927758294604699322015-05-13T09:51:17.339-05:002015-05-13T09:51:17.339-05:00Orbiting Kolob,
I find no reason to believe that ...Orbiting Kolob,<br /><br />I find no reason to believe that Mormons cannot participate in society including the direction of films that merit the "sensibility" test that you have given. The problem here is a matter of probability / statistics. How many "sensible" films are there that meet your criteria? What is the percentage of "sensible" films compared to the film industry? And now, what is the percentage of Mormons who are movie directors? To label a group of people deficient because of what they believe in sounds a bit unfair and unwarranted. I find this analogous to saying that you will not find biologists among people who believe in God because the idea of evolution "goes counter" to the idea that the creation happened by God.<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-24469700413953852582015-05-12T12:15:55.938-05:002015-05-12T12:15:55.938-05:00I have no stake at all in this intra-Christian deb...I have no stake at all in this intra-Christian debate about faith vs. works. But this idea that Mormon beliefs can be validated by appealing to ancient Judaism strikes me as really strange. There might be some tenuous, abstract parallels between Jewish temple practice and Mormon theology, but what actually happens inside LDS temples has pretty much no relation at all to practices in either the ancient temples in Jerusalem or the "temples" (that is, synagogues) of the diaspora.<br /><br />To someone like me, who was raised in a Jewish family that lit Sabbath candles Friday night and went to synagogue Saturday morning, there seems very little that is even remotely Jewish about Mormonism -- nothing Jewish about its temple rituals, nothing Jewish about the Book of Mormon and other LDS scriptures, and (perhaps especially) nothing Jewish, in fact nothing even remotely Christian, about its sensibility.<br /><br />If my reference to "sensibility" seems unclear, stop thinking about "beliefs" and start thinking about art. Ask yourself whether a Mormon could have produced something like, say, <i>Fiddler on the Roof</i> (as an example of a quintessentially Jewish sensibility) or <i>Jesus of Montreal</i> (which strikes me as quintessentially Christian).<br /><br />Yes, yes, of course I know that the LDS Church insists that it is Christian, and by the usual criteria it quite obviously <i>is</i> Christian. It's just that those criteria strike me as pretty shallow. But then, I think that if we use more meaningful criteria, then a <i>lot</i> of American denominations are not Christian.<br /><br />Sure, this is all basically semantic. Mormons define "Christian" in terms of their doctrinal adherence to certain ideas about Jesus, whereas I define "Christian" in terms of a certain sensibility. For most of those who participate in these discussions, "sensibility" is a pretty nebulous concept. It's much easier to think of religion in terms of doctrinal checklists than in terms of the sort of art they create. It's much easier to say things like this...<br /><br /><i>The Jews' relation to their God has always been as contentious as it has been reverent, as we see not only in the stories of Abraham at Sodom and Jacob at Peniel, but also in the poetry of Jacob Glatstein, as when he writes (in a poem about the Holocaust), "God, wherever you may be, / There all of us are also not." Where Christians try to understand tragedy and injustice in ways that don't challenge the essential perfection of their God, Jews tend to "push back," to "wrestle with God" or "speak truth to power."</i><br /><br />... than things like this:<br /><br /><i>Christians believe in the divinity of Jesus, whereas Jews do not.</i><br /><br />It's not that the second of these isn't true. It is, and it's something one needs to understand before saying anything further about Christians and Jews (or Mormons and gentile Christians, or whatever). The problem is that it's just the beginning; such doctrinal statements shouldn't be the only elements in the discussion. To <i>really</i> understand the relations between various faiths requires a lot more. Hence my frequent forays into the realm of sensibility.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13487176199190748882015-05-10T14:48:29.897-05:002015-05-10T14:48:29.897-05:00Jeff, sure, I believe many Mormons work righteousn...Jeff, sure, I believe many Mormons work righteousness out of love and gratitude, because Mormons are good good people. They are the best thing about that church. But, as Elder Oaks said, it is premature for any Mormon to confidently declare that they have eternal life. That only comes at the last day when the time to work is over. God will judge then whether you have done enough or not. So, this is the bondage I am speaking of and which Mormons labor under. This is the slavery I speak of. <br /><br />You can never know if you are doing enough. And your labors, no matter how gracious and loving and well-intentioned, are and will always be performed out of a place of fear for your eternal well-being and for the well-being of your future family relationships.<br /><br />Unless you are given the confidence and certainty of your eternal life now, you are always in fear now. Romans 8:15, For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons..." <br /><br />Christians proclaim that you can know that you have eternal life now. John says so in his epistles. If you believe in Christ, you know you have eternal life. And the author of Hebrews says that faith is the substance and the evidence of what you can't see, but what you hope for. And what do we hope for? Justification. Your faith in Christ is your evidence that he approves of you now. Not later. <br /><br />This is the Christian message, the good news of Christ. Mormons reject this message, for the cross is foolishness and a stumblingblock. Mormons would rather not cast their eyes upon the brazen serpent because of the easiness of the way, so they build unto themselves temples and craft unto themselves rituals by which they are brought into the symbolic presence of God bedecked with earthly wealth and luxury. <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-67807048839473022522015-05-10T14:29:50.456-05:002015-05-10T14:29:50.456-05:00Symphony of dissent. I 95% agree with your stateme...Symphony of dissent. I 95% agree with your statement on grace. But when the covenant is made by which you access grace, you are then worthy to enter into God's presence through the merits of Jesus Christ. It is not an "eventual" thing. You will never "eventually" be worthy. It happens now through Christ. Or never at all. When you are saved, you are saved. Yes, you can fall from grace, God forbid. But you do not "eventually" approach grace. <br /><br />The "eventual" concept is called infused righteousness, and it is a Catholic doctrine. (Mormons are far more Catholic than they are Protestant.) <br /><br />Protestants believe in "imputed righteousness." When you enter into covenant with God through belief and faith, Christ's righteousness is imputed to you. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89542015315518182432015-05-10T13:55:50.770-05:002015-05-10T13:55:50.770-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81411396237833122492015-05-10T13:39:11.617-05:002015-05-10T13:39:11.617-05:00Everythingbeforeus makes outstanding points. Grac...Everythingbeforeus makes outstanding points. Grace is another case of where the church will someday issue a weak and solicitous letter stating how they are and were wrong. Come thou font of every blessing was removed from the hymn book due to one GA having a fit over the word grace being used. And why do you say people are equal in the Temple? My Timpanogas temple is not ADA accessible. I guess that is treating people equally. Men with beards are scorned and not allowed to work there. There is only equality in the Temple if you are TBM and perfect. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39350165860020923302015-05-10T13:23:44.552-05:002015-05-10T13:23:44.552-05:00In the temple, you are given the opportunity to le...In the temple, you are given the opportunity to leave BEFORE you are called upon the make covenants, before you realize what exactly is even in your packet of clothes. After that, when the ceremony begins unfolding, you are not given another opportunity, although I am sure no one would stop you from getting up and walking out. <br /><br />Sure, there is a temple prep class, but hearing the edited version of what is going to happen is far different from being in that darkened environment and participating in that experience that is very foreign to everything you were taught to believe Mormonism is all about. And you have your mom and dad sitting nearby beaming at you. Trust me. Hundreds of people are turned off by the experience, do not report feeling the spirit there, in fact, some report feeling the spirit tell them that something ain't right! My wife was repulsed by it. A former girlfriend went and vowed never to go back. My brother, an Elder's Quorum president has intentionally not returned for over a decade. I was bothered by it my initial time through. And there are many more who tell their stories. <br /><br />I think you need a really good long sit down with the Epistle to the Galatians. Ask yourself why Paul is so angry at the Galatians for having accepted Christ in Spirit, but then turning to covenental, ritualistic practices to further perfect themselves. <br /><br />And you should also seriously consider the words of Acts 7:48. <br /><br />And a close reading of Hebrews 1-10 would be good, too. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45743766786795333352015-05-10T11:04:23.690-05:002015-05-10T11:04:23.690-05:00The temple as a slave plantation--what next? It...The temple as a slave plantation--what next? It's a plantation that people seek to get into. It's one where they can leave anytime. In fact, right there in the temple, if people aren't comfortable with the covenants, they are expressly told to step out rather than go forward, as they are told in preparing. They can leave before, during, or after. It takes desire and effort to stay on the plantation. To call that slavery waters down the horrors of actual slavery and all the plausible metaphors for it. <br /><br />Do you see marriage as inherently a slave/master relationship? How about a Boy Scout making oaths to obey the Scout law, etc.? How about any other serious agreement, contract, promise, etc.? All about slavery? We sometimes toss worlds like "slavery" around in complaining about jobs we don't like, but those are usually jobs people can leave. People can leave the temple, they can leave temple covenants, and they can leave the LDS religion completely if they want. In fact, it takes diligence and perseverance not to. That's not slavery. <br /><br />Making an agreement--a covenant, an oath, a promise, a contract--is not the same as losing one's freedom or one's soul. <br /><br />It is true that many modern Christians have lost the sense of a covenant relationship that was part of original Christianity and Judaism. It's a topic I will explore more in future posts to help others better understand some of what is missing in modern religion. Covenants with God, though, including those of the Temple, are not about losing one's agency and becoming a slave. They are about drawing closer to God. <br /><br />I also think you miss the meaning of Mormonism if you think #3 sums us up. What we aspire to is to love and serve God, not just now, but through the eternities, long after we've been admitted in his presence. Why? Because of our growing love for Him and inherent desire to serve. It is now and even more so then will be an expression of growing love for Him--not merely doing something to get a reward. The sacrifices of today--the service we render in particular--for most LDS people, in my view, is not driven by what's in it for us, by hope of reward for the service, but by a desire to serve, to bless, and to love. We love because of the love and grace we have received from the Savior. <br /><br />But invoking the outlandish slave/master relationship into temple worship (where people are far more equal than in profane society outside the temple) shows more than just misunderstanding who we are, I fear. Is there some deep anger toward us? Why? What's up?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90272835872440706242015-05-10T11:03:07.809-05:002015-05-10T11:03:07.809-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74079413352096839492015-05-10T08:29:42.480-05:002015-05-10T08:29:42.480-05:00Everythingbeforeus I think you strong misstate the...Everythingbeforeus I think you strong misstate the LDS position on grace. At least the way that I understand the relationship between works and grace is that grace is what sanctifies and makes my work efficacious. If I work without grace my work availath me nothing. With grace, my work is a signal of covenant faith which allows the holy spirit which I have received to purify me and turning me into a being which can eventually reside in God's presence. It is grace which makes it all possible and without grace no work could avail.symphonyofdissenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16431032360870774004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-78683431061607969492015-05-09T12:33:37.398-05:002015-05-09T12:33:37.398-05:00everythingbeforeus: there is a perception worth ta...everythingbeforeus: there is a perception worth talking about in your comment but it doesn't relate to the post on Grace in the temple. Maybe there is a precursor comment about the old law being fulfilled that you'd like to add so that your comment makes sense discussing on this post/blog?quandmemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12952710662487822192015-05-09T08:02:34.949-05:002015-05-09T08:02:34.949-05:00What are the possible relationships between works ...What are the possible relationships between works and reward? <br /><br />1. I need to perform works to earn the reward.<br />2. I can do whatever I want and will still earn the reward.<br />3. I must perform works but they do not earn the reward. <br />4. I have been given the reward, and perform works out of love and gratitude.<br /><br />1. This is the Judaizer's heresy, spoken against by Paul.<br />2. This is the Antinomian heresy, also spoken against by Paul.<br />3. This is Mormonism. <br />4. This evangelical Christianity.<br /><br />Here is the problem with 3. If I have to do something and won't get the reward without doing it, but am not technically earning the reward by doing it, then I am doing it in the same way a slave works. A slave does not earn his sustenance, for a slave does not earn a wage. But without the work the slave is rejected and does not receive sustenance from the master. <br /><br />The temple is the place where the slave/master relationship is forged in Mormonism. You are placed under covenant to abide by a law. And if you fail to do so, Satan is right there in the temple to tell you how God will cast you off should you fail to comply. <br /><br />Interestingly, the promise to give all is made not to God but to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So the master to whom you are indebted as a slave is not God, but an organization.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com