tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post4828521925295641331..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Don't Base Your Testimony on Declarations from Non-BelieversJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36641473835703845452008-06-07T12:04:00.000-05:002008-06-07T12:04:00.000-05:00Thanks for listening.Thanks for listening.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-24922420704533688362008-06-07T11:59:00.000-05:002008-06-07T11:59:00.000-05:00I'm sorry, I was under the impression that instead...I'm sorry, I was under the impression that instead of the simple "no" answer, your initial response was the off-putting, "I'll answer that if the question cuts both ways and can be applied to the Bible as well..." I understand and agree with your point here. I was merely suggesting that a simple direct answer or conceding a point can diffuse antagonism and lead to a more productive discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18369368127117059822008-06-05T21:28:00.000-05:002008-06-05T21:28:00.000-05:00Thanks for listening, Tracy. Yes, I did say that. ...Thanks for listening, Tracy. Yes, I did say that. But I had to explain that the simple "no" answer does not mean that the Book of Mormon is on hopeless ground or has nothing going for it compared to the Bible. It's important to understand that the question is loaded and cuts both ways. <BR/><BR/>What really disappoints me about so many anti-Mormon Christians is that the "scientific" arguments they turn so ignorantly against the Book of Mormon often would also undermine the Bible. If non-believing archaeologists are needed to verify the reality of the Book of Mormon, must we demand that they stand up for the reality and accuracy of the stories of the Bible as well? Good luck!!<BR/><BR/>And if antis expect DNA evidence to "prove" the accuracy of the Book of Mormon text (they often have little knowledge about what the text really really requires), can they also show how it "proves" the Bible? Many of these antis who rant about DNA evidence also teach an interpretation of the Bible holding that the earth is only 6,000 years old. Look, a major foundation for the use of DNA in tracking and dating human migrations is the idea that humans and chimps are separated by 4.5 million years of gradual evolutionary change. Good luck with the DNA evidence in finding support for a 6,000-year-old earth.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-22093938273606330552008-06-05T16:25:00.000-05:002008-06-05T16:25:00.000-05:00He DID.He DID.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81989174101496925502008-06-05T10:17:00.000-05:002008-06-05T10:17:00.000-05:00Why not just answer with a simple, "No. I cannot n...Why not just answer with a simple, "No. I cannot name such an archaeologist who has verified the historicity of the Book of Mormon." And then pose your questions regarding verification of biblical history?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27692405133534179412008-06-04T22:49:00.000-05:002008-06-04T22:49:00.000-05:00"Truth is the reality of the world as it exists."T..."Truth is the reality of the world as it exists."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Truth is things (all true facts) as they are, as they were, as they are to come. All true facts. The reality of the world does not give us all the true facts. Because of this we are always changing or preception of reality, like it or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-51032231979625562252008-06-02T12:53:00.000-05:002008-06-02T12:53:00.000-05:00Either the things we read in the BoM match up with...Either the things we read in the BoM match up with reality, or they don't. Who asked the question is irrelevant, be they a Christian minister or the Dalai Lama. Truth is truth.<BR/><BR/>Truth isn't plausibility. Truth isn't using rhetoric to avoid hard facts. Truth is the reality of the world as it exists. If you have to ignore parts of reality, you ignore truth, and you have no integrity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-68258677200865773672008-06-01T03:08:00.000-05:002008-06-01T03:08:00.000-05:001The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave un...1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John, and Joseph Smith<BR/><BR/>2who bore record of the Word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. <BR/><BR/>3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein; for the time is at hand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50974673755121529182008-05-31T18:05:00.000-05:002008-05-31T18:05:00.000-05:00I have several friends and associates who are athe...I have several friends and associates who are atheists. On those rare occasions in which we discuss things related to religion, the conversation usually ends with something like this:<BR/><BR/>No amount of physical evidence will do anything to prove the authenticity of the source material of religious texts (i.e. divine inspiration). All the evidence can do is say that someone at some point lived in some place. At some point, one must have faith in God to believe that that person living at some point in some place was inspired by God. Not that he (or she) was just writing their own ideas.<BR/><BR/>In other words, I don't think there is any meaningful purpose in trying to "prove" God. To believers or non-believers. So I don't try. I leave the proving up to the Spirit.Alex T. Valencichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06176742152052333764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-86411620147403241482008-05-31T11:43:00.000-05:002008-05-31T11:43:00.000-05:00"Anyway, I think it is important to note that, bec...<I>"Anyway, I think it is important to note that, because the alleged questioner is a Christian minister, it is totally fair to hold him to the same standard that he holds us."</I><BR/><BR/>Right, I think there is a point there, as I stated about Jeff's response. However, I'm still curious how one would respond to an atheist who has no similar "scandal" of believing a book to be true "just because it is." I think something like this needs to be defended objectively and not just within the context of other believers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-47065203831836864422008-05-31T01:03:00.000-05:002008-05-31T01:03:00.000-05:00And speaking of bringing things back on topic... I...And speaking of bringing things back on topic... I don't really feel like going through all the 33 comments again to find out who said, it what exactly was said, but somebody made the claim that it is unfair to pose the minister's same question to him, citing an example of what if an atheist had called...<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I think it is important to note that, because the alleged questioner <B>is</B> a Christian minister, it is totally fair to hold him to the same standard that he holds us. When I was serving a mission in southern California, I never had anyone ask me about the veracity of the Bible. However, I would occasionally ask individuals how they knew the Bible was true. Often the response was something along the lines of, "Um... er... well, it just is! Everybody knows that!" I would then ask, "Have you ever prayed and asked the Lord to verify the truthfulness of the Bible?" The response was always an appalled negative. Apparently, it is sinful to question the validity of the Bible as sacred text.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, if the members of the mainstream Christian community are to use the standard of physical archeological evidence to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon as a sacred text, then such standards must be held up to <B>all</B> sacred texts. Not just ones they choose to verify. Thus,I agree that Jeff's question was absolutely relevant.<BR/><BR/>And, perhaps with the risk of causing some individuals to draw the comparison toof far, I will point out that Christ himself used this method when people tried to trick him with questions. Remember the question of authority and the responding question about the baptism of John?Alex T. Valencichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06176742152052333764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85803281535337080392008-05-31T00:49:00.000-05:002008-05-31T00:49:00.000-05:00Hey, don't even bother responding to fools who pos...Hey, don't even bother responding to fools who post with vulgar names. I'll just delete their comments and anything that mentions their name.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83503414234115614092008-05-31T00:46:00.000-05:002008-05-31T00:46:00.000-05:00More comments from the same vulgar source deleted....More comments from the same vulgar source deleted. Hope he matures someday.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18958487592383246822008-05-31T00:12:00.000-05:002008-05-31T00:12:00.000-05:00"That's not a personal attack?"Nope. Just the fact..."That's not a personal attack?"<BR/><BR/>Nope. Just the facts. Now, if I had said, say:<BR/><BR/>"Hey stupid dumb face! Your such an idiot, man! You sure are dumb! Don't you know anything about anything?" Or something along those lines, then that would be a personal attack.<BR/><BR/>You claimed:<BR/><BR/>"the BofA taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead....not written by Abraham's own hand as was declared."<BR/><BR/>This does smack of ignorance. This tired claim has been successfully challenged. The latest scholarship has cast significant doubt on this claim. In fact, there seems to be good evidence that Joseph Smith did not use the Book of Breathings Made by Isis (not the Book of Dead, which is a different document, as you claim) in his translation of the Book of Abraham. The historical and Egyptological evidence suggests that Joseph translated said Book of Abraham from a scroll that was destroyed in the Chicago Fire. See Dr. John Gee on this issue. His works include:<BR/><BR/>A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri (FARMS. 2000)<BR/><BR/>and these articles:<BR/><BR/>http://farms.byu.edu/viewauthor.php?authorID=24<BR/><BR/>especially these:<BR/><BR/>http://farms.byu.edu/publications/bookschapter.php?bookid=&chapid=268<BR/><BR/>and<BR/><BR/>http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?filename=MzAwOTM3NTgzNy0xOS0yLnBkZg==&type=cmV2aWV3Secondly, you claimed that Joseph Smith uttered false prophecies, and then promptly touted David Patton and the Temple as two examples. However, as has been demonstrated, these were not prophecies but commandments. They are different things.<BR/><BR/>"I suppose, when prophecies don't come true, the only way to protect the prophet is to dismiss his use of "Thus saith the LORD".:"<BR/><BR/>Please show me "Thus saith the Lord" phrases in connection with prophetic utterances. Again, those were commandments, not prophecies. See the links I provided and Jeff's links.<BR/><BR/>"But, we were asked to stay on topic so I won't go into why your argument is without merit."<BR/><BR/>Fair enough. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.Steve Smoothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00785226026604586090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32562509511819137752008-05-30T22:36:00.000-05:002008-05-30T22:36:00.000-05:00Thanks for the post - seeing you get that out ther...Thanks for the post - seeing you get that out there saves me the time of setting forth my own frustrations about the same old anti arguments!<BR/><BR/>Why can't people understand that religion doesn't have to bow to science and reasoning? Sure we can find scientific points to affirm our faith, but science didn't bring me to Christ and it isn't going to push me away either.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08087669617331165855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76158197914607580332008-05-30T13:24:00.000-05:002008-05-30T13:24:00.000-05:00I'm confused... what do Joseph Smith's prophecies ...I'm confused... what do Joseph Smith's prophecies have to do with non-LDS archaeologists?<BR/><BR/>Interesting how on both the radio show and in this post Jeff gets accused of derailing the topic, then just a few comments later the topic really does get derailed (and not by Jeff, either). <BR/><BR/>Pot? Kettle?<BR/><BR/>To anon@2:18 -- <BR/><BR/>That's hilarious! Time to find some gold spray paint and index cards...Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90326411201458442842008-05-30T11:06:00.000-05:002008-05-30T11:06:00.000-05:00Sorry - some of the comments may be confusing sinc...Sorry - some of the comments may be confusing since they respond to an anti-Mormon whose posts I have deleted. He was using a vulgar screen name that I didn't catch at first. I tolerate a lot of anti-Mormon expressions here, but vulgarity is unacceptable. What pathetic childishness!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39820575874167307432008-05-30T10:55:00.000-05:002008-05-30T10:55:00.000-05:00The Book of Mormon is its own proof.The Book of Mormon is its own proof.Clean Cuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08383123314458721660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39046298353994231142008-05-30T08:45:00.001-05:002008-05-30T08:45:00.001-05:00Jack said: "Then why do they allow such as this:ht...Jack said: <BR/><BR/>"Then why do they allow such as this:<BR/><BR/>http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/061212map.html"<BR/><BR/>Why do THEY allow it? They, WHO??? <BR/>Jack, that's ONE scholar's article about RESEARCH and PLAUSIBLE Book of Mormon sites, and the scholar happens to be LDS. That's not "THE CHURCH" claiming there's evidence. Even the AUTHOR isn't claiming any irrefutable "evidence". It's just his educated opinion, and the opinion of other researchers on some of the studies they've done. Meridian Magazine is not a church publication. It's Scott and Maureen Proctor's publication, and they are simply members of the church who started an online magazine, and that article was written by a contributing author. <BR/>You're trying to make the Church guilty of something for which it's not guilty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-38330108780613889512008-05-30T04:18:00.000-05:002008-05-30T04:18:00.000-05:00"If your system of belief is based mostly on faith..."If your system of belief is based mostly on faith and partially on 'plausibility' provided by evidence, then there is no dispelling the Book of Mormon."<BR/><BR/>Not me. When I was taught the lessons I asked to see the gold plates. The next lesson the missionary showed me 2" x3" gold color plates and asked me what would that prove? If Joseph showed the plates they would just say they were fake that is after the plates were stolen and melted down for money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74356153924587446352008-05-30T01:38:00.000-05:002008-05-30T01:38:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Brother Zelphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53267560968082882612008-05-29T22:43:00.000-05:002008-05-29T22:43:00.000-05:00Jack:Did I throw any insults? If I did, please sho...Jack:<BR/><BR/>Did I throw any insults? If I did, please show me.<BR/><BR/>"The first was concerning the building of the temple in MO (1832 Temple Lot) Fast forward to the current date and, not only has the temple not been built, the church doesn't even own the land."<BR/><BR/>Nope, not a prophecy, but a commandment that was not completed by the Saints because of their wickedness. See here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Independence_temple_to_be_built_%22in_this_generation%22<BR/><BR/>"Second, Joseph prophesied David Patten would go on a mission the following Spring. Since Patten was killed that Fall....I don't believe that one came true as well."<BR/><BR/>Nope, not a prophecy, but a mission call. See here: http://en.fairmormon.org/David_Patten_to_serve_a_mission%3F<BR/><BR/>"False prophecies = False prophet"<BR/><BR/>Are you willing to apply this same standard to biblical Prophets?<BR/><BR/>http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_prophetic_test_in_Deuteronomy_18<BR/><BR/>Anyways, back to topic, I suppose.Steve Smoothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00785226026604586090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-58526999389350558502008-05-29T21:15:00.000-05:002008-05-29T21:15:00.000-05:00Ryan Said"Don't get me wrong -- science is a wonde...Ryan Said<BR/>"Don't get me wrong -- science is a wonderful way to learn and make improvements when taken as a whole, over a long time, but there is no guarantee that today's finding is true, good, or correct. Errors, misunderstandings and incomplete knowledge regularly lead to serious problems. Sure, they get worked out eventually, but how many people suffer due to their faith in the system in the meantime?"<BR/><BR/>My point exactly with my first post...<BR/><BR/>@ Greg<BR/>There is evidence other then the three and eight witnesses testimonies. Their testimonies being weaker that's absurd how many UFO proponents become skeptics on it and then continue to talk about their experiences as if they weren't skeptical, which the three and most the eight did despite not believing Joseph to be a prophet anymore. As for evidence I gave one the more things that were thought to be impossible in the ancient Americas that Jospeh placed their despite reason and knowledge at the time, the more it is evidenced that it is indeed a historical record rather then a made up account. My testimony is based on faith and reason not just one or the other.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-61164729459876464722008-05-29T21:08:00.000-05:002008-05-29T21:08:00.000-05:00The issue of prophetic tests and claims of false o...The issue of prophetic tests and claims of false or fulfilled prophecies is off topic for this post. It's a topic I discuss in more detail in my LDSFAQ area: "<A HREF="http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophecies.shtml" REL="nofollow">Fulfilled Prophecies of Joseph Smith</A>" and "<A HREF="http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophets.shtml" REL="nofollow">Questions about the Prophecies of Joseph Smith (including allegedly failed prophecies)</A>.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-62054860141227793852008-05-29T20:33:00.000-05:002008-05-29T20:33:00.000-05:00I'm confused why Jeff's response is "irrelevant." ...I'm confused why Jeff's response is "irrelevant." The minister asked,<BR/><BR/><I>Can you name a non-LDS archaeologist who publicly states that the Book of Mormon is verifiable history?</I><BR/><BR/>This is called poisoning the well. Questions like this are designed so that there is no good response. <BR/><BR/>Jeff: yes<BR/>Minister: Liar, liar pants on fire!<BR/><BR/>Jeff: no, but...<BR/>Minister: See, you've just admitted the Book of Mormon is a fake and a lie. Anyone believes it is true is duped, stupid, or worships the devil. *click* (hangs up, having extracted the desired words from Jeff and delivered the rant, and not the least bit interested in the rest of the reply)<BR/><BR/>Jeff: Can *you* name a non-Christian archaeologist who publicly states that the entire Bible contains real history?<BR/>Minister: You're playing word games with me!<BR/><BR/>Given the circumstances, I think it's perfectly reasonable to throw the question back at the questioner. <BR/><BR/>Reminds me of the folks on my mission who loved asking LDS if they were "Christian."<BR/><BR/>Ryan: yes<BR/>Other: No you're not! You don't go to a bible-teaching church like mine.<BR/><BR/>You see, Spanish-speaking evangelicals in southern California had hijacked the word "Christian" to mean "evangelical Christian." Mormons, 7th day adventists, Jehova's Witnesses, and Catholics were not invited to the party. <BR/><BR/>Of course, you can't just say "no, I'm not Christian" either, because we all know where that leads...Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.com