tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post4866677902500221923..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Cornelis Van Dam on the Urim and ThummimJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-26189617004508856492008-08-23T08:18:00.000-05:002008-08-23T08:18:00.000-05:00The description of the book says, "He traces the u...The description of the book says, "He traces the use of the Urim and Thummim from the time of Joshua through the early monarchy under David and describes its apparent disappearance by the time of the 'classical' prophets, where a shift to primarily verbal oracles occurs." <BR/><BR/>"Classical" prophets? Like around the time of Jeremiah?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-67318922358343748302008-08-19T13:21:00.000-05:002008-08-19T13:21:00.000-05:00Sorry Jeff but you mentioned Van Dam and whole bun...Sorry Jeff but you mentioned Van Dam and whole bunch of 80's moments passed by me....I can still hear the "Kumate! Kumate! Kumate!" music in the background as the bad guy says "I will break you like I did your friend."<BR/><BR/>I just can't comment on the Urim and Thummin right now...because I have a ankerin' to go watch some old rated R movies...like Bloodsport. Good post though!Rob Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14002908733806585017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-64956966177760375262008-08-14T16:26:00.000-05:002008-08-14T16:26:00.000-05:00Wonderful post, Jeff! I, too, ordered the book. Ca...Wonderful post, Jeff! I, too, ordered the book. Can't wait to read it.Brian Duffinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02375697102003702849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85308704350486855122008-08-13T00:16:00.000-05:002008-08-13T00:16:00.000-05:00As Joseph grew in righteousness and spirituality, ...As Joseph grew in righteousness and spirituality, I find it interesting that later on he didn't need the U & T (or a seerstone) to obtain revelations.<BR/><BR/>I'd also be interested in reading some compare-and-contrast between the U & T and seerstone Joseph used later to translate.<BR/><BR/>Am I correct in thinking that Joseph used the U & T before he lost the 116 pages (and stopped translating for a while), and used the seerstone after he resumed translating later on?Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-84155424230851099572008-08-12T22:52:00.000-05:002008-08-12T22:52:00.000-05:00"Vast frontier library" - there's the link. It's #..."<A HREF="http://www.jefflindsay.com/oneday.shtml" REL="nofollow">Vast frontier library</A>" - there's the link. It's #2 in Google (searching for "vast frontier library"). Maybe a couple more links will get it up to #1? :)Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80370187840672299132008-08-12T20:37:00.000-05:002008-08-12T20:37:00.000-05:00Jeff - great subject and wonderful article. I thin...Jeff - great subject and wonderful article. I think the lack of comments is that there's really nothing much to add and the antis simply ignore it because they can't refute it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85353962881012500862008-08-11T23:09:00.000-05:002008-08-11T23:09:00.000-05:00Blessings, said:"I had wondered many times at th...Blessings, said:<BR/>"I had wondered many times at the "Urim and Thummim" and none of my previous theological studies had answered (adequately) what these were or how they linked in with the Biblical stories I had read."<BR/><BR/>Christ's promise:<BR/><BR/>“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.” —Revelation 2:17<BR/><BR/>Joseph Smith expounds further.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"When the Savior shall appear we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a man like ourselves... And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, thereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word…<BR/><BR/><BR/>Remember that the temple is where God communicates with man just like the Urim and Thummim. When you learn about LDS thought about the new name, garments, knowledge, temples, seer stones, and Urim and Thummim go back through the Book of The Revelation and it brings on a whole new meaning.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Just as the Jews had this knowledge as we now know from the Dead Sea Scroll people discoveries so also the early Christians had this knowledge in The Book of The Revelation. The Book of The Revelation gives more about what heaven is like than any book of the Bible until Joseph Smith obtained the restored gospel.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>An ephod (pronounced either \ē´fod\ or \ef´od\) was a type of object in ancient Israelite culture, and was closely connected with oracular practices. In the Books of Samuel, David is described as wearing one when dancing in the presence of the Ark of the Covenant,[1] <BR/><BR/>"...clothed in special garments also, and in fact, we see that worship of Gideon's ephod is mentioned at Judges 18:18. The ephod itself was considered a synonym for the Ark of the Covenant, which was itself a miniature temple. "It has been thought that the ephod too was some kind of miniature temple."<BR/><BR/>You also can obtain the same blessings that Joseph Smith obtained with the Urim and Thummim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-87386269610539496562008-08-11T14:15:00.000-05:002008-08-11T14:15:00.000-05:00Ryan,You're right. The "lucky guesses&quo...Ryan,<BR/><BR/>You're right. The "lucky guesses" that JS had to have made just keep piling up. The U & T, the thing about barley, and all those seemingly "silly faux-Jewish" names.<BR/><BR/>If nothing else, all those unexplainable "how did Joseph know?" things ought to cause serious non-LDS scholars to seriously investigate the Book of Mormon.<BR/><BR/>But the funny thing is, if someone is a seriously heavy-duty scholar who is smart enough to thoroughly understand the evidence, and the "coincidences" cause them to raise an eyebrow, the very nature of them being a "serious scholar" almost precludes them from a <I>spiritual</I> investigation. Such people don't believe in spiritually investigating, praying, and receiving answers to prayers. They'll just chalk it up as a "yet to be explained mystery" something that is "yet to be explained by our current science and knowledge."Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74959329290483157392008-08-11T00:30:00.000-05:002008-08-11T00:30:00.000-05:00Hi Book,Um.. it's me, regular LDS poster? I'm thor...Hi Book,<BR/><BR/>Um.. it's me, regular LDS poster? I'm thoroughly on your side here... and just lurking for this one post. The frontier library LDSFAQ entry is hilarious, though. Especially the dialogue.<BR/><BR/>My badly-stated point was that if you don't accept Joseph Smith as a prophet (though I do, in fact) he either knew nothing about the scholarly state of the art and had to make up everything about the Urim and Thummim, or else he did know the woefully incomplete and incorrect scholarly state of the art and decided to make up nearly everything anyway. <BR/><BR/>Either way, Joseph seems to have made a solid bulls-eye from 170+ years away. Could any book(s) in the Great Frontier Library have contained this information? Certainly none from the non-fiction section, if Dr. Van Dam is correct.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50090889282249904592008-08-10T21:07:00.000-05:002008-08-10T21:07:00.000-05:00Ryan, I believe Joseph Smith's version of events....Ryan, I believe Joseph Smith's version of events. <BR/><BR/>But critics of the church have pointed to such works as the Spaulding manuscript, Ethan Smith's "View of the Hebrews", and E.T.A. Hoffman's "The Golden Pot" as possible outside sources.<BR/><BR/>Critics have pointed at Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon as possible vectors of information from those sources as well as additional information from other unknown sources.<BR/><BR/>A cynic would say that Oliver had plenty of opportunity to influence the composition of the Book of Mormon.<BR/><BR/>I believe that Joseph didn't meet Sidney until after the publication of the Book of Mormon. But there are those who claim that Joseph and Sidney were observed in the same locality (town area, not necessarily the same room) at the same time. But I don't think that claim is well-supported or generally accepted.<BR/><BR/>We believe that Joseph dictated the Book of Mormon to Oliver Cowdery within the span of a few months in 1829. However, cynics/critics would say that Joseph had at least from 1820 to 1829 to concoct the Book of Mormon in his mind.<BR/><BR/>Joseph also continued to attend various churches after his vision in 1820. I don't know at what point he totally ceased attendance of other churches or religious-oriented meetings.<BR/><BR/>Some critics claim that Joseph actually did join another church after being told in his vision of 1820 not to. I don't know the truth of that claim, or whether that issue is dealt with in <I>Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling</I>.<BR/><BR/>My point in mentioning Joseph's continued contact with other churches is that he likely picked up at least some Biblical knowledge from those sermons, in addition to his own Bible study and family Bible study.<BR/><BR/>Jeff does a great job on his LDS-FAQ and BoM Evidences pages at his www.jefflindsay.com web site, in dealing with these issues.<BR/><BR/>If Oliver or Sidney or other preachers were the source or pathway of all these "coincidental" tidbits getting into the Book of Mormon, it still boggles the mind how Oliver did it in a few months, or how much information Joseph was able to pick up and retain during the years leading up to 1829.<BR/><BR/>One of the pages on Jeff's website is about the "vast frontier library" that would have been needed for Joseph to have gleaned all the necessary info.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16130757434405749692008-08-10T14:51:00.000-05:002008-08-10T14:51:00.000-05:00</lurk>I read it (and both linked articles),...</lurk><BR/><BR/>I read it (and both linked articles), and it was really interesting, but no comment came immediately to mind. Keep it up, though -- I don't usually wander around FAIR/FARMS because most of it is too dry for my taste and posts like this lead to fascinating reading material.<BR/><BR/>It does beg the question, though... where in the world did Joseph Smith get all this info, assuming he made it all up? He might have been alive during or after the last time scholarship on the topic advanced in a meaningful way, but that round of scholars seems to have had it all wrong!Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-4036650171971692952008-08-10T08:22:00.000-05:002008-08-10T08:22:00.000-05:00Wow, thank you! I'm glad someone read the post. Mo...Wow, thank you! I'm glad someone read the post. More work than normal went into it, but people seem a lot less interested in this topic. Maybe I should have said something negative about the latest Batman movie in the title instead? Maybe "<B>That Silly Batman Movie: All Those Gadgets But No Urim and Thummim? No Wonder He's a Loser</B>"?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41024637691185138282008-08-10T01:53:00.000-05:002008-08-10T01:53:00.000-05:00This is, in fact, very interesting information. I ...This is, in fact, very interesting information. I am examining the claims of the LDS Church with a view to moving my family over to them. I have been reading the BOM and other books (Gospel Principles etc) and enjoying them all. I have what can only be described as a similar experience so far to the disciples on the road to Emmaus- "[my heart] burns within me whilst He talks with me on the way".<BR/><BR/>I had wondered many times at the "Urim and Thummim" and none of my previous theological studies had answered (adequately) what these were or how they linked in with the Biblical stories I had read. As soon as I read your entry Jeff, I ordered the book (even though I am from the UK). This blog is a fantastic tool in the hands of the LDS- even though it contains your personal thoughts!<BR/><BR/>Blessings!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13766539105286738022008-08-09T07:32:00.000-05:002008-08-09T07:32:00.000-05:00It is noted that many renderings in the old and ne...It is noted that many renderings in the old and new testament of stones are emblematic of light, knowledge, angel, spirit and temple where more perfect light and knowledge come to man kind.<BR/><BR/>The high-priest's breastplate, as described in Hebrew tradition, was regarded by the Jews with peculiar reverence, and the stones set in it were believed to be emblematic of many things. It is, therefore, quite natural that these stones are described in the book of Revelation as the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. The names are in some cases not identical with those given in Exodus, but this may arise from various renderings of the Hebrew names in the Targums or in the Greek versions.<BR/><BR/>The text in Revelation (xxi, 9-21) is as follows: <BR/>"And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife: <BR/><BR/>And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. <BR/><BR/>Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper-stone, clear as crystal; <BR/>The passage in Revelation xxi, 19, 20, is not the only one in that book treating of precious stones, for we read in chapter iv, 2, 3<BR/><BR/>"And immediately I was in the Spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. <BR/>And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald." <BR/><BR/>The commentators, both ancient and modern, have given many different explanations of the symbolic meaning of the similes employed here. Some have seen in the two stones a type of the two judgments of the world, by fire and by water; others find that they signify the holiness of God and his justice. Of the rainbow "like unto an emerald," Alford says we should not think it strange that the bow is green, instead of prismatic: "the form is that of the covenant bow, the color even more refreshing and more directly symbolizing grace and mercy." Alford, "The Greek Testament," vol. iv, Pt. 2, p. 594.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com