tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post6303306909537765407..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Scandal! Scandal!? Church Provides More Details on Proposition 8 Spending for Jan. 31 DeadlineJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-38591272768236338582009-02-12T06:56:00.000-06:002009-02-12T06:56:00.000-06:00Oh yeah, I also defend Mormons, my family, Me, eve...Oh yeah, I also defend Mormons, my family, Me, even, as extremely hardworking, loving, kind, decent people (ok, not so much on the web, but well, I see myself as having good motives -- fewer need here in the NW, than when I lived in Utah, for some reason. It actually scares me, some of the things I hear.<BR/><BR/>Actually, I thought Mormons would disagree with their leaders (like when that anti-oral sex thing came out in the late 70's) leadig to a change. I've been disappointed. <BR/> Things like this make such defense much more difficult.djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37240153093021266432009-02-11T02:05:00.000-06:002009-02-11T02:05:00.000-06:00I know I'm going to regret this, but that's the st...I know I'm going to regret this, but that's the story of my life. Black people were denied exultation, that is, they were unable to participate in temple ceremonies until, I believe, 1978. <BR/><BR/>Pretty harsh. The only factor of which I am aware (and I keep track of the primary literature) that affects the number of gay male offspring is the number of previous sons a woman has had.<BR/><BR/>So, the higher the birthrate, the more gay boys.<BR/><BR/>Hence, Mormons have many gay sons. These same mormons are beyond decent people who love their children and want them to live happy non required celibate lives.<BR/><BR/>Why not let them get married? The difference from Polygamy to Monogamy which the church made, was much bigger.<BR/><BR/>It'll happen, or the church will lose basically all the non-cruel people younger than what? 30?djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56019917215370420712009-02-11T01:31:00.000-06:002009-02-11T01:31:00.000-06:00"Say good bye to an entire generation of non-misfi..."Say good bye to an entire generation of non-misfit mormons. Ta ta....."<BR/><BR/>An entire generation? Maybe you are exaggerating just a little. <BR/><BR/>Those that leave because of this, choose to. They are not being forced out. You have to remember that this isn't a church with members that freak out when the church doesn't go their way. It isn't a democratic church. Only One resides at It's head.<BR/><BR/>It isn't a "fair weather" membership. The "fair weather" members that do leave are exactly that. "Fair weather"; Band wagon jumpers or just confused.<BR/><BR/>I know, I know I am rambling.bunkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091655088509351675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-87323775069299562152009-02-11T00:43:00.000-06:002009-02-11T00:43:00.000-06:00I agree 100%, djinn. No need for anyone to hide a...I agree 100%, djinn. No need for anyone to hide anythingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-61630804995665968212009-02-11T00:33:00.000-06:002009-02-11T00:33:00.000-06:00Then why at the very best obfuscate? My personal ...Then why at the very best obfuscate? My personal belief, backed with no information whatsoever, is that the church wanted to have it both ways; that is they wanted prop. 8 to win without appearing to support it too vociferously, considering the large number of Mormon families with gay members--in my experience Mormons are really kind, loving people and dislike being told to abandon their loved ones, and they are intelligent to understand the shifty 15/16ths condemnatory language emanating out of the church.<BR/><BR/>Hence, the hedging. We didn't say what we, uh, said, yeah.... that's the ticket. Say good bye to an entire generation of non-misfit mormons. Ta ta.....djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-2649534040398330462009-02-10T18:22:00.000-06:002009-02-10T18:22:00.000-06:00I guess because it isn't a pride thing with LDS fo...I guess because it isn't a pride thing with LDS folks. Just a principle. Just a belief.bunkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091655088509351675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53273571156384177232009-02-10T11:49:00.000-06:002009-02-10T11:49:00.000-06:00I don't know of any other organizations that hid t...I don't know of any other organizations that hid their support/opposition to prop 8 like the Mormon church did. Google explicitly came out against prop 8and Apple, donated $100,000 against it publicly. <BR/><BR/>The Evangelicals were equally proud of their donations for the proposition. It only appears to be the Mormon church that attempted to occupy some nether-region. Plus, the (a) lawsuit against having to report donations, coupled with (b) sudden appearance of report with said donations leads one to thoughts other than perfect honesty on the part of the organization of the first part. Or is it the third? Whatever. <BR/><BR/>Why not be loud be proud?djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33441882526405038052009-02-10T09:32:00.000-06:002009-02-10T09:32:00.000-06:00I agree that the 'mormons' are being singled out u...I agree that the 'mormons' are being singled out unfairly. It's far too easy for people to blame failure on a single, small minority. <BR/><BR/>That having been said...<BR/><BR/>This entire situation is frustrating. For years I have defended my LDS friends and family from attacks by ignorant fools who think 'mormons' are evil cultists. No, I'm not and have never been LDS, but that hasn't stopped me from correcting people when they say something ridiculous about the church.<BR/><BR/>But to be perfectly honest about it, part of me feels betrayed. It absolutely crushed me to see an anti-SSM sign in my aunt's lawn. I literally cried afterwards. <BR/><BR/> All we want is the ability to marry the person we love. What's so wrong with that? The LDS Church already has 'temple marriage' that many 'mormons' view as being superior to civil marriage, so what's the big deal? No one is going to force the church to perform temple marriages for gays, and if they try, then you have every right to stand up for your beliefs and say, "Heck no, we aren't doing that!"<BR/><BR/>Best wishes and God Bless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45079684213510944112009-02-10T08:24:00.000-06:002009-02-10T08:24:00.000-06:00djinn,Do you have a list of all organizations that...djinn,<BR/><BR/>Do you have a list of all organizations that "lied" about their contributions, or are you only singling out the LDS church? I'm asking because I have seen you post on other blogs about this same issue and it is only about the LDS church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-70957376661948552982009-02-09T14:47:00.000-06:002009-02-09T14:47:00.000-06:00Oh and if the no on 8 people lied they should be t...Oh and if the no on 8 people lied they should be totally called out. Absolutely. What were they? Asking honestly.djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15632742010723869182009-02-09T14:37:00.000-06:002009-02-09T14:37:00.000-06:00The homosexual agenda? Could you post a copy? I'v...The homosexual agenda? Could you post a copy? I've always suspected it of having four-color offset litho; hardware store ads, brunch recommendations, and an entire section devoted to subjects such as the best ever stroller and getting those annoying insufficiently burped baby throw-up stains out of cashmere sweaters. <BR/><BR/>Waiting.....djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-92047869938861938572009-02-09T02:38:00.000-06:002009-02-09T02:38:00.000-06:00[Sorry to jump in at the end, but I only read Bro....[Sorry to jump in at the end, but I only read Bro. Lindsay's blog on the weekends if I have time.]<BR/><BR/>Anyone that is criticizing the church for this "new" disclosure after reading the church's response to this non-issue is just trying to find fault, that's all. No if, and's, or but's about it. Doesn't matter who you are in this thread, that's your sole motivation. Just to find fault with the church because you are angry at it. No other reason.<BR/><BR/>There is no motivation for the church to deceive anyone about this. No matter how much money they gave, it does not jeopardize their non-profit status. Non-profits are limited in campaign contributions to political office and in lobbying, neither of which apply, of course, to Prop 8, a ballot issue voted upon by the people of CA.<BR/><BR/>I'm a member of the church in CA and I voted for Prop 8, I hung door hangers, made calls at a phone bank. put up a sign in my yard, and donated money....I'd like to see the church's disclosure to see why anyone is so upset. I saw none of the church's money. We saw two major groups helping to push Prop 8's passage that were asking for money. That's who I gave money to.<BR/><BR/>The church did a broadcast here in CA. I'm sure they had to figure out how much that was "worth" and add it into their figures. That's the only thing I ever saw from the church. Never saw any church "CIA-like" operatives in commando training camps. Never heard about money coming from the church in Stake PEC meeting (I'm on the High Council). Only heard quoting the Brethren's request that members should donate of their time and means to help pass Prop 8. Every stake organized their own local activities in conjunction with other groups and churches to get out the vote. Did hear about LDS attorneys working at the polls and/or in the county offices state-wide to help ensure that the ballots passed legal muster and to oversee/prevent any ballot tampering. Perhaps there is where some of the "in-kind" money is being accounted for.<BR/><BR/>Opponents of Prop 8 were equally well-funded. Well, actually, even more funded. Homosexuals are not financially persecuted people. If you look at their demographics, they are actually doing extremely well. And that is not even counting their heterosexual friends in Hollywood who have very deep wallets and contributed.<BR/><BR/>You don't think any of them are ever deceptive? During this campaign, I witnessed lie, after lie, after lie being hurled against this campaign and the church. Blatant lies. (Because in the war on truth, that's all they could use.) Even our illustrious State Education Superintendent and State School Board President lied at a major press conference and in a televised commercial and on mailers. (I'm a teacher.) Either that, or they were incredibly ignorant and/or incompetent. To you members of the church who are antagonistic: Do you realize exactly with whom you are taking sides?<BR/><BR/>To suggest that the brethren are lying about their financial disclosure is to strain at a gnat. You are just looking for any excuse to be angry at the church. You need to look inside of yourself for the real issue here.<BR/><BR/>The real issues of Prop 8, both the political and moral ramifications, have been clearly stated, have been available for anyone to read and understand, and have been reiterated over and over. They are plain to see. There is nothing to hide. The real issue comes down to this: Are you deceived and caught up by the homosexual agenda?<BR/><BR/>That's it. That's all there is to it. And don't give me any baloney "enlightened day and age we are living in" arguments, either. To you members of the church, you either believe in the Bible and the Book of Mormon or not. You believe that the Prophet and the Brethren are called of God or not. You either believe that the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman as an eternal institution was ordained of God or not.<BR/><BR/>Don't give me this nonsense of being "bigoted" against homosexuals, either, because that is just a smokescreen. You members of the church should know better. Yes, I understand that the issue of homosexuality in the church has its issues, but that is totally irrelevant in the argument of whether they should be granted the right to marry. I know you may have shed tears about the difficulties you or your loved ones or your friends have had as homosexual members of the church, but those experiences are irrelevant in this argument about Prop. 8.<BR/><BR/>You may even have been treated by members of the church and perhaps even by priesthood leaders in unjust, uncaring, or unrighteous ways. I'm not excusing their behavior nor am I trying to be callous towards your suffering. But the bottom line is that all those things "about the church" is irrelevant to the question, "Should homosexuals be allowed the right to marry?"<BR/><BR/>As a member of the church, the answer is "eternally no."<BR/><BR/>You can quibble about how much the church spent, how the Brethren do not understand the issue or your circumstance, whether they are lying, or any other thing that you wish to bring up and be angry about. It doesn't matter in the big and eternal picture. Those are distractions (or deceptions, actually, IMO). And it doesn't matter about Prop 8 passing. It passed. No matter how angry you are about it, this disclosure issue is not going to taint or reverse the fact that Prop 8 passed. And try as the critics may, it will not taint the church, either.<BR/><BR/>The homosexual agenda is aggressive, frightening, and a true threat to civilized society. Period. True enlightenment comes not from man, but from Heavenly Father and his Son, Jesus Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13134224907853549282009-02-08T22:28:00.000-06:002009-02-08T22:28:00.000-06:00Thank you so much for your kind comment, it means ...Thank you so much for your kind comment, it means more than I can say.djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85798020663168736112009-02-08T16:36:00.000-06:002009-02-08T16:36:00.000-06:00Djinn, I really appreciate the perspectives you've...Djinn, I really appreciate the perspectives you've brought. The back and forth has reminded me that people that might seem to be "enemies" may really be good friends or potential friends who nevertheless are concerned and working in good faith to correct us when needed, as they see it. And sometimes the warnings and "calls to repentance" are quite justified - we are all fallible humans. The interaction with you on this post is a reminder to me to not get rankled and read between the lines, to understand what people are trying to share and why. I'll try to do better - but I lapse into old habits so easily!<BR/><BR/>Thanks also for the link on the early and incorrect statement from an LDS voice. My hope is that it was an innocent mistake based on incomplete info. I understand that the person who made it is regional P.R. person, which may simply be an unpaid position where it's easy to be unaware of details like the full scope of LDS involvement. And it's also possible that many LDS visits to California from SLC were for other purposes were combined with work on Prop. 8, creating confusion over how to classify the travel. I just don't see any sense to deliberately lying over what is still a small amount. Let's see. But your concern is understandable and not unreasonable. <BR/><BR/>Djinn, you also mentioned that your family is LDS - sounds that there is a rift of some kind. Anything we can do to help? Some families have a real hard time dealing with someone who goes their own route, but there are readers here who have worked miracles IMO in bringing people together again and helping loved ones learn to accept differences that once divided. If there's anything you'd like to ask or any messages we can share or create, let us know. Life is too beautiful and short to let differences keep us from talking and loving one another, no matter how strongly we may differ on theology, politics, gender roles, orientation, etc. Please let us know. I can also be reached at jeff at jefflindsay.com if there's anything I can do. <BR/><BR/>Best wishes, and may God bless you in your journey!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80555411131898965632009-02-07T19:06:00.000-06:002009-02-07T19:06:00.000-06:00I think most reasonable people understand that it ...I think most reasonable people understand that it is the policy of the LDS Church to be honest. I suspect one Brother Eaton might have been called on the carpet and admonished to be more circumspect in his public statements. It is quite plausible that what Eaton said was true as far as he knew.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90438128070512520332009-02-07T10:00:00.000-06:002009-02-07T10:00:00.000-06:00Oh, and I agree with you about the Fed. We're in f...Oh, and I agree with you about the Fed. We're in for bad bad bad bad times. I feel like I'm acting like a troll, but really, I see the Mormon church, or at least some section responsible for these matters shooting themselves accurately and carefully in the foot.<BR/><BR/>Making mistakes on financial forms happens all the time. Any of us who has filled out a tax return understands this. We try, we misapply line 16e, which requires referencing this other multi-page form, which even with the helpful multi-page pamphlet, and even the multivolume treatise is a mystery.<BR/><BR/>This happens. This is different that "We didn't do anything. Oh woops, we did a lot." Someone at Church Headquarters needs to get a clue. Here. Two Vowels included for free.djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66275020986155834542009-02-06T00:02:00.000-06:002009-02-06T00:02:00.000-06:00Dear Bro. Lindsay, you said this: "We may challeng...Dear Bro. Lindsay, you said this: "We may challenge her assumptions and analysis," I believe that with all my heart and am glad, if only (currently) peripherally to be in the same church.<BR/><BR/>For what it's worth, my boyfriend who grew up athiest, could scarcely be more impressed by Mormons. It's one like you (I'm sure) that he finds so commendable.djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90155524010428683522009-02-05T13:27:00.000-06:002009-02-05T13:27:00.000-06:00Found it! Here is an official LDS spokesman, Don ...Found it! Here is an <A HREF="http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/politics&id=6496949" REL="nofollow">official LDS spokesman</A>, Don Eaton, saying that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints put zero money into this," referring to Prop. 8.djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9030713162736188702009-02-05T13:14:00.000-06:002009-02-05T13:14:00.000-06:00CD,I said you can't use both arguments, because th...CD,<BR/><BR/>I said you can't use <I>both</I> arguments, because the argument that "gay people have the same marriage rights as anyone" disproves the argument that gay marriage is a "special right" for gay people. If the first is true, the second cannot be true.kurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05945400924271622826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-35880287887580499472009-02-05T10:05:00.000-06:002009-02-05T10:05:00.000-06:00Kuri,Sure I can use that argument, I just did. An...Kuri,<BR/><BR/>Sure I can use that argument, I just did. And in fact its true, gay people have exactly the same rights as everyone else. Unfortunately there are a number of misguided and fearful heterosexuals out there who don't agree. But the fact remains that right now, gay people have every right to marry in every state in the union. What they want is for the state to recognize as valid the contract they make to marry someone of the same sex. The state does not have to do that. In fact, for centuries it has been an established principle in the law that the state can decide that certain types of contracts are illegal, immoral, and/or invalid. The states can say that marriage between two people of the same sex is immoral and illegal. <BR/><BR/>Sincerely<BR/><BR/>Catholic DefenderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-40088674237989782002009-02-05T09:44:00.000-06:002009-02-05T09:44:00.000-06:00I think you're overlooking the fact that the gay a...<I>I think you're overlooking the fact that the gay and lesbian community has always had the right to marry, they just haven't had the right to marry someone of the same sex. ...What the folks are fighting for isn't the right to marry, its the right to marry someone of the same sex. But that is a violation of the equal protection clause of the constitution in that it seeks to establish a protected class of citizens who have more rights because of their classification as homosexual than the rest of us becuase we not homosexual.</I><BR/><BR/>Anon,<BR/><BR/>You can't use both the "gay people have the same marriage rights as everyone" argument and the "gay marriage would be a special right" argument; they contradict each other. True, gay people now have the right to marry people of the opposite sex, but if gay marriage were legal <I>you</I> would have just as much right to marry a person of the same sex as any gay person does. No one would have any special rights.kurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05945400924271622826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25365302447364836542009-02-05T07:55:00.000-06:002009-02-05T07:55:00.000-06:00Djinn,I think you're overlooking the fact that the...Djinn,<BR/><BR/>I think you're overlooking the fact that the gay and lesbian community has always had the right to marry, they just haven't had the right to marry someone of the same sex. That is what I believe is the fundamental flaw of this whole debate. What the folks are fighting for isn't the right to marry, its the right to marry someone of the same sex. But that is a violation of the equal protection clause of the constitution in that it seeks to establish a protected class of citizens who have more rights because of their classification as homosexual than the rest of us becuase we not homosexual. As I see it, this is problematic and is not in keeping with the idea that we are supposed to be equally treated under the laws of the country. <BR/><BR/>I expect I'll get some response about how the civil rights movement, using my logic, would somehow be invalidated. My response in advance, is that the civil rights movement had to do with getting folks to respect rights that blacks, and other minorities already had, but were being denied. Consider that at the end of the civil war the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments were enacted. These amendments gave blacks the freedoms to be treated equally. The mind set of the people however hadn't changed and blacks were denied those rights, granted to them under the constitution until 1964. This is different from the argument about same sex marriage, because everyone already has a right to marry. <BR/><BR/>Additionally, both sides of this argument have rights. Both sides have the right to opposing views. They don't have to agree, and they aren't likely to agree. Ultimately a decision was made by the people, and its a decision that good, bad, or indifferent needs to stand...not necessarily because its the right decision, but because to invalidate the vote would serve only to undermine the voting rights of the people in future elections. Does that mean SS Couples should give up their fight, no, not if they believe they are fighting the good fight. It just means they've lost this battle and need to regroup and try something else. <BR/><BR/>Sincerely<BR/><BR/>Catholic DefenderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-22209198780537168202009-02-05T07:39:00.000-06:002009-02-05T07:39:00.000-06:00Even capable? You should attend a bishopric meetin...Even capable? You should attend a bishopric meeting sometime. You might be surprised.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-62431965371805949142009-02-05T03:10:00.000-06:002009-02-05T03:10:00.000-06:00ah, i was about to ask a question in all seriousne...ah, i was about to ask a question in all seriousness that seems to have been addressed by Mormanity.<BR/><BR/>I was going to ask whether we Mormons are even capable of questioning the judgement of our leadership without fearing our questioning automatically rises to the level of heresy/apostasy, or whether we are so emotionally tied to the mantra of "the church is true so our leaders are incapable of making errors in doctrine or official judgement" that we dont even think to question how policies are implemented.<BR/><BR/>well, i guess i still asked the question...SlalomHOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12938903054435581393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30214785713446901882009-02-04T22:05:00.000-06:002009-02-04T22:05:00.000-06:00Dear Mr. Lindsay, that is a beautiful comment, as ...Dear Mr. Lindsay, that is a beautiful comment, as I expect from you, but it will not make more heterosexual couples step up to the plate and adopt the difficult kids that gay families sweetly and effectively take in; it will not stop the insurance, probate, and tax discrimination that such people face, and it will not stop kids being ostracized <A HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/23/us/23oxnard.html" REL="nofollow">or even killed </A> in CA because they declared they were gay.<BR/><BR/>The Mormon church is filled with loving, lovely people. Soon enough they (we, I hope) will understand that we are on the wrong side of history and change our tune. <BR/><BR/>Everyone now "Somewhere, over the rainbow......<BR/>All my love,<BR/><BR/>Djinn.djinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06112894520660114580noreply@blogger.com