tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post7775287012767417533..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: The Hunt for the Valley of Lemuel: S. Kent Brown Weighs InJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger95125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66660202245609998532007-11-21T20:13:00.000-06:002007-11-21T20:13:00.000-06:00Wagoneer, where are you, man? I thought Mormanity ...Wagoneer, where are you, man? I thought Mormanity gave a great answer to your smarmy comment. No response??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89907414469777604892007-11-10T16:07:00.000-06:002007-11-10T16:07:00.000-06:00Wagoneer, have you missed all the excitement and e...Wagoneer, have you missed all the excitement and evidence from the Arabian Peninsula? You might want to check it out over at MormonEvidence.com. The discoveries by George Potter and others in the Arabian Peninsula aren't about claiming some random valley might be a valley where Lehi stayed. They are addressing a critical issue relating to a text with some meaty details to determine if there could be a plausible candidate. If you've followed anything about the Book of Mormon, you've got to know that critics for years have been saying that the idea of a continually flowing river emptying into the Red Sea from the Arabian Peninsula is absolutely absurd and refutes the Book of Mormon. They have been saying that a place like Bountiful on the east coast, with fruit trees, wood for ship making, water, etc., was also absurd and couldn't exist.<BR/><BR/>But some who took the Book of Mormon seriously have actually gone to Arabia and followed the directions given in the text. An accessible valley with impressive walls and a continually running stream emptying into the Red Sea should be within a three days journey from the borders of the Red Sea. Does such a place exist anywhere in Arabia, much less within a region possibly consistent with the distance specifications of the text? Field work has indeed identified a reasonable plausible candidate with a stream that flows year round into the Red Sea. And this counts for nothing? Remember, the critics, with all their education, guffawed at the idea. And yet a plausible candidate exists, though some questions remain.<BR/><BR/>Then, continuing from the Valley Lemuel and the River Laman, the Book of Mormon specifies a south-south east direction for a substantial distance. Along the way they encounter fertile regions called Shazer. This, again, is entirely plausible, based on field work. And they continue on this route until Ishmael dies, after which they bury him in a region called Nahom. The Semitic root of this word, NHM, is associated with mourning - a perfect name for an ancient burial place. And indeed, a map from the University of San'aa in Yemen confirms that there was an ancient burial place called Nehhem (same root: NHM) in a location remarkable consistent with First Nephi in the Book of Mormon.<BR/><BR/>Departing Nehem, Lehi travels nearly due east - a sharp departure from the south-southeast direction that paralleled the commonly traveled ancient incense trails in Arabia. They are now in in more difficult territory, according to the text, and this fits the Arabian geography well. In fact, after continuing along the ancient incense trails, turning due east in Arabia is utter suicide almost anywhere along the trail, for it would take you into regions called the Empty Quarter. But there is a narrow region where one can depart from the trails and head due east with a chance at survival, bypassing two swaths of the empty quarter, and that narrow window of opportunity just happens to be within about 3 miles of the ancient burial place Nehhem. It's remarkable. But I'm sure you'll roll your eyes and dismiss this as a game anyone can play. But when you try making up a story about a land you know nothing about, making statements that will seem ridiculous to your critics who know much more than you, and then go there and try to identify locations and structures consistent with your text, you'll see it's a game you're sure to lose. So was Joseph just really really lucky?<BR/><BR/>But it gets better. Ancient altars from the region around Nehhem have the NHM root engraved on them, and they date to the 7th century B.C., confirming that the Nihm tribe was in fact in that region in Lehi's day, greatly strengthening the plausibility of the text and the bulls-eye accuracy of the NHM root for that unusual place name.<BR/><BR/>And it gets even better. Continue due east from Nahom/Nehhem/Nihm: can you even reach the coast, or is it impassable? You can reach the coast. But what is there - more sand and desert, right? No, in fact, there is a place that seems to fit all the many requirements one can extract from the text for the place Bountiful. Once too funny for words, too silly for the educated anti-Mormon crowd to take seriously for one moment, now we have photos and field work and details showing that the description of Bountiful is remarkably plausible. It's nearly due east of Nahom, accessible, and consistent with what the text states.<BR/><BR/>Doesn't that count for something? Are the discoveries of these tentative candidates for places in the Book of Mormon just the result of amateur game playing without any substance whatever? You're really not just an little impressed - or maybe a tad irritated by the inconvenient evidence? No, of course, this doesn't prove Jesus is the Christ or anything like that, but it does raise serious questions about how Joseph in rural New York could come up with such stuff, when much better educated critics like you over 150 years later weren't aware of these details in Arabia.<BR/><BR/>Do you seriously think it's just game playing?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-92104533525522365892007-11-10T05:29:00.000-06:002007-11-10T05:29:00.000-06:00I am starting to understand why you play this game...I am starting to understand why you play this game.<BR/><BR/>We play this game becuse we, like all humans want to be renforced in out believes and all the more the Mormons because of the negative things said about our religion. I don't know of to many people that joined the church because of cost lines but the point is to keep us intertained and maybe some nonmember will be impressed enought to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. Again most people don't join because of cost lines, DNA, ect. Also if you don't look you will never find anything that might support or prove any or all of the church.<BR/><BR/>Some nonmembers attent church because of the family values but could care less about cost lines.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19029722457088415572007-11-09T12:13:00.000-06:002007-11-09T12:13:00.000-06:00Errr...Darion...that is exactly what I DON'T MEAN!...Errr...Darion...that is exactly what I DON'T MEAN!<BR/><BR/>Truth DOES NOT depend upon the person! Subjectivism/PostModernism is EXACTLY WHAT I CAMPAIGN AGAINST =DNMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019089593824237385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-58398718028799344252007-11-09T10:55:00.000-06:002007-11-09T10:55:00.000-06:00And why not believe it? As NM has stated Truth de...And why not believe it? As NM has stated Truth depends on the person or persons who view it. It's true from a certain point of view. Humans are amazing at finding what they call truth and then finding the 'evidences' that prove to them of that truth. The more you believe in something, the more it takes hold of your life and affects it. Is God real, is He not real? Is Christ real, or is He not real? Are there really coasts out there that could resemble the Valley of Lemuel? Well of coarse there are. Are their sites for the Garden of Eden? Probably and probably not. But if someone believes strongly enough in something, who am I, to try and tell them other wise.Rob Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14002908733806585017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-71817825178897697772007-11-09T00:43:00.000-06:002007-11-09T00:43:00.000-06:00To get back to the original post:Jeff - It is beyo...To get back to the original post:<BR/><BR/>Jeff - It is beyond me how you make anything of this at all. Let me try to get it straight: in the Book of Mormon, there are relatively few details about this location. Now, many years later, in a coastline covering thousands of miles, several sites are found, miles and miles apart, that in some way match the relatively vague description. OK, so what? <BR/><BR/>I am starting to understand why you play this game. You can't lose. It is genius: how can you prove definitively that the Valley of Lemuel never existed? You can't. But you can sit back and wait for any new information that might have the slightest correlation with the Book of Mormon, and then pounce. Take that critics! Somewhere, along thousands of miles of coastline, there are a couple of places that are vaguely reminiscent of some place that was supposed to have existed 2500 years ago. What do you say now?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14613831831972832582007-11-07T18:09:00.000-06:002007-11-07T18:09:00.000-06:00Really?! I thought he talked to that Anthony Flew...Really?! I thought he talked to that Anthony Flew professor guy? Hmmm...must re-read the book!NMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019089593824237385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32342611431698894132007-11-07T18:00:00.000-06:002007-11-07T18:00:00.000-06:00You know, NM, Strobel never talks to any "antis". ...You know, NM, Strobel never talks to any "antis". The only people he interviewed for TCFC were conservative evangelical scholars. <BR/><BR/>Just a thought...Kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00412390493430566381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27530851321753976292007-11-07T17:40:00.000-06:002007-11-07T17:40:00.000-06:00Hello everybody,I have just been made aware of a g...Hello everybody,<BR/><BR/>I have just been made aware of a great site, made by Lee Strobel. I don't know if anyone here remember me talking about a book entitled, "The Case for Christ"?<BR/><BR/>Lee Strobel is a journalist. Not only that, he was also an atheist - that is until he set about trying to look at the evidence for and against the Bible with the intention to discredit it. The evidence that he did find was astounding and instead of dicrediting it, he found himself doing the opposite. =)<BR/><BR/>As I have said before: (Christian) apologetics, in of itself is useless - but it really helps the person who might not be at all interested in becoming a Christian, but know that the Bible is a historical fact. =)<BR/><BR/>Lee Strobel's website can be found at leestrobel dot com. I really wish that this site was available when I decided to <I>start-all-over-again</I>. The journey, for one thing, wouldn't have been as long nor as painful =/<BR/><BR/>There's a little two-minute video within his website entitled, "Can the Bible Be Trusted?", which Lee draws a comparison with the Qu'ran and the Bible, with its claim that Jesus isn't actually the Son of God, but a mere prophet...interesting stuff...<BR/><BR/>Anyway, enjoy! =)NMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019089593824237385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66420212435419810682007-11-06T21:49:00.000-06:002007-11-06T21:49:00.000-06:00NM,"Errm, all the things you talk about with God s...NM,<BR/><BR/>"Errm, all the things you talk about with God showing me His grace, I have already received =)."<BR/><BR/>Gotta love it :)<BR/><BR/>Everyone else, I wonder the same things. NM just typed them out. You can pick on me too! :)Kathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00412390493430566381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-68906815662790547372007-11-06T13:49:00.000-06:002007-11-06T13:49:00.000-06:00Hi Jeff,It's all by the grace of God, right?To be ...Hi Jeff,<BR/><BR/>It's all by the grace of God, right?<BR/><BR/>To be honest though, my life did take a turn. And my issues were with 'truth' itself; the idea that 'truth' is actually subjective and it doesn't really matter what anybody actually believes, just as long as they have a belief(!) The work of <B><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittgenstein" REL="nofollow">Wittgenstein</A></B> was the one that had me most stumped...as well as the usual suspects found in Jean-Paul Sartre, Albert Camus and Friedrich Nietzsche...<BR/><BR/>Having been brought up in a Christian family, it's all too easy to take such things as 'absolute truth' for granted =(<BR/><BR/>So, when I was faced with 'other-truths', my world was turned upside-down and inside-out. And when I say that my life took a turn for the worst...it really did...<BR/><BR/>It has only been quite recently that it seems God had other plans...<BR/><BR/>It really helped to <I>start all over again</I>: to actually read the Bible, spiting out the religiousness I had come to swallow, looking at the evidence to support Christianity, and even through the observation of how 'truth' plays in our everyday lives =)<BR/><BR/>For example: if there is no 'absolute truth', the world would be in chaos...people would have their own truths, with individuals having the right to commit acts of crime against each other, without the expectancy of punishment etc.<BR/><BR/>The fact that we have laws, and I mean universal laws such as, it-is-wrong-to-take-things-which-don't-belong-to-you to the fact that there are laws of physics - the fact that we are able to measure and observe and to see that the universe is predictable etc. points to one fact alone: that there is a designer! etc. etc. etc...you get the point...<BR/><BR/>There are many other things that I could mention which have totally and radically transformed my life (some of which I sometimes wonder - like Peter - whether I'M GOING SLIGHTLY LOOPY) where God has been more than gracious to me and to my family =)<BR/><BR/>Like all the Apostles in the New Testament and some of the prophets in the Old, my wish is that my life is a living DOXOLOGY to the One who has graciously woken me up when all I deserve is death...<BR/><BR/>Jeff, can I ask how God's grace transformed your life?NMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019089593824237385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85123580701818943052007-11-06T13:19:00.000-06:002007-11-06T13:19:00.000-06:00Well, NM, it think it's lucky you read the Bible a...Well, NM, it think it's lucky you read the Bible and became a Christian before reading anti-Christian /anti-Bible literature. If you had not been familiar with Christianity and took the same approach you propose before reading the Book of Mormon, would you have insisted that you first resolve psychological issues around Christ - you know, hearing voices, seeing visions, having a death wish, etc.? And what about issues around polygamy among prophets, the Canaanite Meadows Massacre of non-believers by Moses and his troops, scientific fallacies like six days of creation, the occult practices of Moses and his magic wand, Joseph and his divination cup, various prophets and their urim and thummim peepstones, the occult use of wormwood and other folk magic rites, etc., etc., etc.? Not to mention the allegations of Celsus and others that Christ was a magician using tricks to deceive the masses? Could you ever have resolved all those issues before you finally found a logical reason to pick up and read the Bible?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46258530074436972982007-11-06T05:29:00.000-06:002007-11-06T05:29:00.000-06:00NM, J.Smith's involvement with the Freemasons? Wha...NM, <BR/><BR/><BR/>J.Smith's involvement with the Freemasons? What is all this about? Please understand that the Freemasons are not just a mere men's social club.<BR/><BR/>What is your problem with Freemasons?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17970948292925359862007-11-06T03:14:00.000-06:002007-11-06T03:14:00.000-06:00NM,"Yes, I guess the way that I might want to expl...NM,<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Yes, I guess the way that I might want to explore the Book of Mormon might be similar to the way that I expect the people that I run the courses for when introducing them to the Bible."<BR/><BR/>The church has some good classed and books but if you have questions ask away.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-61838685671028978222007-11-06T03:05:00.000-06:002007-11-06T03:05:00.000-06:00NM,I liked your farewell address.Keep posting thos...NM,<BR/><BR/>I liked your farewell address.<BR/><BR/>Keep posting those questions and when we get the time we will address them. Just need them one at a time so we can look up the answers and try to present them in a understandable manner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-86386604242392197882007-11-05T20:08:00.000-06:002007-11-05T20:08:00.000-06:00Howdy NM,I've been busy as well the last couple of...Howdy NM,<BR/><BR/>I've been busy as well the last couple of days, but I'm sorry you feel badly about how these discussions have gone. <BR/><BR/>Stepping back and taking a look at the situation was kind of enlightening. We started out discussing some really interesting and meaningful topics, and somehow we started drifting from these insightful, "very NM-like" questions toward the same "tired old arguments" we get from posters who seem to care (and think) so much less than you do. It really took the life out of things. <BR/><BR/>Sadly, toward the end I even started wondering if you were the same as the self-styled psychologist who showed up a while ago and put on a big show of studying us poor deluded subjects over a breakfast of tea and crumpets. <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure how this happened, but hopefully we can get back that earlier spirit and leave the tiredness to someone else. <BR/><BR/>Oh, and I sincerely hope that some day you can work out a way to recognize and trust spiritual experiences without worrying they might be a symptom of something... It's easy to see where you're coming from on this, and I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you. Maybe some day...Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75907312516107863592007-11-05T18:58:00.000-06:002007-11-05T18:58:00.000-06:00Nathaniel,We are not telling or asking you to go a...Nathaniel,<BR/><BR/>We are not telling or asking you to go away, just trying to point you to where the information is at so that we don't need to repeat it over and over ;). Though it does help myself to get a better understanding on what I believe and how to convey it to others. But hey, the Lord IS preparing me to serve a mission. It's great talking to you and my understanding of grace is growing, not that I ever believed anything else. His grace IS a free gift. It is that my understanding of what Christ asks of us has grown. If anyone asked me why I changed my religion I tell them I haven't, I am still Christian it's just that my understanding has increased.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703965785236123679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15407319777462707272007-11-05T17:52:00.000-06:002007-11-05T17:52:00.000-06:00Tatabug & PeterTo be honest this whole thing start...Tatabug & Peter<BR/><BR/>To be honest this whole thing started out because two of my closest friends are Mormons. I grew up with them, not knowing much of their religion, and neither they with mine.<BR/><BR/>It's only quite recently (in the past year) that I've taken an interest in Mormonism because two young strapping missionaries with very strong American accents came knocking on my door one early evening. Our family tea came to a halt, much to my wife's displease as we talked for almost 2/3 hours! I guess it all started from there really...well, with the pursuit to understand more about Mormonism anyway...<BR/><BR/>The over-riding thing that I can't help but want to share with people (in general and not just here on Mormanity) is God's free gift of grace. =) - the absurd effect that it has had upon my life which has completely transformed all desires. =) It's just something that I can't help but want to talk about...=D<BR/><BR/>And I guess, even as a a reformist, that we (as humans) do not know who God has chosen for Himself...and in the same way that many professing Christians think they may have salvation but do not, might be the same the other way around...that those who I think do not fit this 'Christian criterium' that I have in my head, actually do. A person's relationship with Jesus as their Saviour is not for me to judge =) I think that God's calling upon me is simply to praise Him for what He has done in my life... =) But, I guess such things must have an outlet... =)<BR/><BR/>So, instead of asking <I>not-so-helpful-questions</I> (although they still do niggle at me from time to time), I'll just stick to what I know best and that is to declare Him as the person who has already done all the work, and everything that I do is a mere response to His work =)...<BR/><BR/>...'grace' is SO INCREDIBLY absurd...<BR/><BR/>I've been most encouraged by you Peter. Please know that I never meant to put doubt in your faith. You have a genuine love to do what is right and to live a life that is pleasing to God...<BR/><BR/>And I guess a big thank you to you Tatabug, Ryan, Anonymous (who ever you are you sneaky chappy), Russell, Jeff for your patience. For those many times you all rolled your eyes with the thought, <I>"Oh boy, here we go again..."</I><BR/><BR/>...but don't think you guys are getting off easy. I'll probably be hovering from now on, firing the occassional question AT Russell n' Jeff...and pulling you all up on the subject of His Sovereign grace...<BR/><BR/>=)NMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019089593824237385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16856273284685382152007-11-05T17:22:00.000-06:002007-11-05T17:22:00.000-06:00Nathaniel,I think I am starting to understand wher...Nathaniel,<BR/><BR/>I think I am starting to understand where you are coming from. I, like anonymous, was blessed in that I didn't get any anti information until after I joined the church. I did read through pretty much everything that I came across. The character of Joseph Smith was not something I stumbled on. There are many, many different sources of information on the internet. Jeff has quite good information, as does fairlds. These places, surely there are more, all give apologetic information. I am also sure that searching for "lds scholar" on Google will provide good results as well. I think that's how I found Jeff's page. If you are interested in learning, these are the avenues I went down. I did start out by reading the critic's information but I got sick and tired of people trying to tear it down, I wanted to know some logical information that supported what I already knew.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703965785236123679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63751059272519887262007-11-05T12:50:00.000-06:002007-11-05T12:50:00.000-06:00NM,I've been busy over the weekend, so I'm not eve...NM,<BR/><BR/>I've been busy over the weekend, so I'm not even going to try and thoroughly catch up. However, I would like to say that I appreciated your last comment. <BR/><BR/>Many of us are not unaware of the anti-mormon arguments. I am aware of all of them which you brought up. And yet many of us are still able to maintain that the Church is true and was restored through Joseph Smith, who was a true prophet of God. It isn't because we are blind. It is because we have more information than what is presented, or we have a different perspective or opinion on certain things, or it may just be that we don't understand everything, but we know that the Church is true in the same way we know that Jesus is the Christ. That is through the revelation of the Holy Ghost, which isn't some wishful thinking, or bout of indigestion.<BR/><BR/>This is why I suggested that you learn from yourself in as unbiased a way as possible. You don't learn about Catholicism from a Protestant. You don't learn about Judaism from a Catholic. Any conflicting interest is going to give you a very unbalanced view. That is why you must go to the source. Why is it necessary to learn about the Church through the eyes of critics? Can one not use their own abilities to learn and study and pray for guidance in the matter? While it may seem logical to look at the matter from both sides, you must consider that the opposition may be completely wrong, but yet they have still managed to cast seeds of doubt. How can one enter into an exercise of faith where doubt exists?tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33417763804297132422007-11-05T10:01:00.000-06:002007-11-05T10:01:00.000-06:00Russell,"I must say, you're beginning to sound fri...Russell,<BR/><BR/>"<I>I must say, you're beginning to sound frighteningly like many of the critics I have dealt with before...laundry-list accusations coupled with an insistence that one unanswered question spoils the batch. That's not how life works and that's definitely not how the gospel works."</I><BR/><BR/>You've hit the nail right on its head. As soon as I gave my last set of questions, I suddenly thought to myself, "This isn't good"...<BR/><BR/>What I would like to say to all of you (Peter, Anonymous, Jeff, BookSlinger, Tatabug, Ryan and anybody who might want to be included in this list) is just how glad I am to see your love for what Jesus has done in all your individual lives. =)<BR/><BR/>I don't think that such questions, although it might be good for me to have resolved, probably isn't good to the rest of you...So, I think I need to tighten my reigns and maybe go and do some readin' at Jeff's website or something...NMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019089593824237385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9497155665442309272007-11-05T07:25:00.000-06:002007-11-05T07:25:00.000-06:00It's not a matter of giving up...it's a matter of ...It's not a matter of giving up...it's a matter of recognizing the fundamental way of getting a testimony. Did Christ say that we needed to know all of Paul's mistakes, errors, and idiosyncracies in order for us to read his letters and follow his teachings? We learn some to be sure in the process (as we do in reading the Joseph Smith story), but they are not fundamental. I might ask that I know everything about Christ's disciples before I study their letters, but I don't. I mean, after all, Peter could easily be painted as a hoodlum, quick to the sword--even cut off a man's ear without direct provocation... <BR/><BR/>In any case, you seem to be imposing your proclivities on the revelatory process; you are instructing God on how to run his business. Besides that, answering EACH of your questions would require its own post. <BR/><BR/>I must say, you're beginning to sound frighteningly like many of the critics I have dealt with before...laundry-list accusations coupled with an insistence that one unanswered question spoils the batch. That's not how life works and that's definitely not how the gospel works.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74198912166271647602007-11-05T03:54:00.000-06:002007-11-05T03:54:00.000-06:00NM,"Jeff (and Russell) do not be so quick to give ...NM,<BR/><BR/>"Jeff (and Russell) do not be so quick to give up on me and in to my questions."<BR/><BR/>All of the questions you ask have been gone over by both sides and can be found on the internet. The big question is, do you study before or after you have a spiritual expeience at the hand of our Heavenly Father.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36963792753555098462007-11-05T03:46:00.000-06:002007-11-05T03:46:00.000-06:00NM said,"It is exactly J.Smith's behaviour that ma...NM said,<BR/><BR/>"It is exactly J.Smith's behaviour that makes me NOT WANT TO READ the Book of Mormon."<BR/><BR/>Sorry to hear that. Your loss and my gain. I am so grateful to my Heavenly Father that I did not hear all the negative things about Joseph Smith until I had felt the Holy Ghost and had gained a testimony (not by study and having all my questions resolved) give to me by the grace of my Heavenly Father. I feel bad for many people like NM because it came to me so easy and for this I am so grateful to my Heavenly Father. <BR/><BR/>The only thing I can relate to is getting the questions answered; but most of the hard answers I just had to wait, then over time I got the answers. But during the wait I gained many spiritul experiences that just kept building my testimony stronger. My questions to someone like NM is to ask: how bad do you want the answer and what are you willing to do to get it, and are you willing to give up everything if nessary to have the answer?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-87484580293251761562007-11-05T01:33:00.000-06:002007-11-05T01:33:00.000-06:00Anonymous,Errm, all the things you talk about with...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Errm, all the things you talk about with God showing me His grace, I have already received =)<BR/><BR/>And His grace continues to be lavished upon my life =) Jesus' work (His grace) is something that I will always be thankful of...and it is something that I can't help but respond to. Which is why (I guess) the reason that I do my job. Since coming to know Him, my life has been so transformed that I no longer want to do what I want to do...but do what He wants me to do. =) I now feel, just as Jesus did when He was on earth, was to spend time with people. I want to help because He has helped me. =)<BR/><BR/>Grace (by His power alone) is very present in my life...and I can do nothing but praise Him in my humility, because His work upon my life really has been humbling...<BR/><BR/>Peter,<BR/>I think that all I am saying is that experiences alone CANNOT confirm 'truth'. Different people have different experiences of one objective truth, but it doesn't mean to way that one single experience is not THE truth. This is called phenomonology. Kathleen kindly pointed this out to us. i.e. whether or not you like bananas, they exist. Bananas do not cease to exist just becuase you don't like them etc...In the same way that Mohammad's experience, having had visions and dreams do not necessarily make what he declared afterward (as a result of such dreams and visions) as truth. We both know that what Mohammad said about Jesus being a mere prophet is NOT the truth. Do you see my point?<BR/><BR/>Russell,<BR/><BR/>It is exactly J.Smith's behaviour that makes me NOT WANT TO READ the Book of Mormon. All the events like, where are these golden plates? What's with the Book of Abraham? Why do egyptologist oppose J/Smith's translation...things JUST DON'T CORRELATE... =) J.Smith's many wives? J.Smith's involvement with the Freemasons? What is all this about? Please understand that the Freemasons are not just a mere men's social club. Why was J.Smith so involved with them? Do you see many questions? Unless I can have resolve with this, I cannot study the Book of Mormon...<BR/><BR/>Like I said before: apologetics is a good thing. But in of themselves are USELESS...but apologetics DO HAVE THEIR PLACE. Certainly with Christian Apologetics (as shown at BeThinking.org), it's a way of presenting Christianity as a real, viable system of though - opposed to postmoderism etc.<BR/><BR/>So, unless such questions that I have about J.Smith are resolved, I think that to dive straight in, pray and look for some sort of experience asking God if the LDS church is the one true church or whatever is dangerous. I'm sure you all disagree... =)<BR/><BR/>I'm sure I could do the same with Buddhism. I'm sure that if I'd spent much of my time pondering upon its morality, its practices, spending time with many Buddhists, being part of that community and the sheer WANTING for Buddhism to be true...sooner or later WILL experience some sort of epiphany. Do you see my point here?<BR/><BR/>Jeff (and Russell) do not be so quick to give up on me and in to my questions. Such questions can for some (if truth is truth - and truth will stand up to ANY SCRUTINY) will only build yours and others' faith =)NMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019089593824237385noreply@blogger.com