tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post7892205039029282357..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Adam and the Fall: God's Plan Thwarted?Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger248125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31567132325139946532011-04-15T18:03:05.502-05:002011-04-15T18:03:05.502-05:00Johnny,
Thanks for leaving your comments with so ...Johnny,<br /><br />Thanks for leaving your comments with so many references to scripture, they are much appreciated and in line with my own thinking. I wonder if Jeff will ever respond from the Mormon perspective with similar scripture that supports this whole Mormon 'need to sin in order for humanity to progress with physical bodies' theory?<br /><br />Personally, I also wonder how many of the parent Mormons that read this blog (Jeff included) have fed their young children on a immoral diet of such secular activity as : porn, dark music, horror movies, gossip magazines or race hate? Or maybe they have tested the children by leaving this 'information' available for children to consume at their freedom in their homes just as a 'test' for their supposed beneficial 'progression?<br /><br />If we were made (as the Bible teaches within the creation account described in Genesis) 'in the image of God' and God is our Heavenly Father, and if we would not feed our own children on an immoral diet of evil, why could Mormons ever believe that God intended it that way in the very beginning so that humanity could 'progress'?Back to Basicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88673444451509630082011-01-14T18:22:35.283-06:002011-01-14T18:22:35.283-06:00Wg@22,
No - leave him alone - he makes sense to m...Wg@22,<br /><br />No - leave him alone - he makes sense to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-29968140355725933282010-04-18T03:43:44.227-05:002010-04-18T03:43:44.227-05:00Thanks for your thoughts on this always thought-pr...Thanks for your thoughts on this always thought-provoking topic!mistahdoomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10565026922565152435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-58033141661687569202010-03-27T11:57:57.497-05:002010-03-27T11:57:57.497-05:00It was not the act of Adam and Eve disobeying God&...It was not the act of Adam and Eve disobeying God's commandment that enabled them to have children like Mormonism teaches, it was the help of the LORD that enable them to multiply (Gen 4:1). Adam and Eve were created like little children, like innocent little children they were not ashamed of their nakedness (Gen 2:25). After eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they knew they were naked (Gen 3:7-17). God's plan is not for his children to disobey, his plan is for his children to obey their father (Eph 6:1,2). Disobeying God's commandment is not a necessary step to know good and evil, Jesus knew good and evil without disobeying God's commandment (2Cor 5:21). After reaching an age of maturity it is natural for a male and a female creature to multiply, the great whales created by God and who were blessed by God to be fruitful and multiple like Adam and Eve were able multiply without having to first disobey God's commandment (Gen 1:21-28). <br /><br />Adam's fall was not a great blessing to all of us as Mormonism teaches because of Adam's sin men have a physical body of "sinful flesh" (Rom 8:13), all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23; Rom 5:12,19), and all die because death passed upon all men and condemnation (Rom 5:12, 16). Adam's fall was not a necessary step in the plan of life as Mormonism teaches because before the fall they had fullness of joy by being in the presence of the Lord (Psalm 16:11), they had the right to choose between to obey or disobey God's commandment (Gen 3:17), they had eternal life since death came after he sinned (Rom 6:23; Rom 5:12), they were blessed by God to be fruitful and multiply just like the whales (Gen 1:21-28), and they would have done good by obeying God's commandment (Gen 2:16). <br /><br />Men are not blessed for disobeying God’s commandments like Mormonism teaches because men are blessed for doing his commandments, those who obey have the right to the tree of life (Rev 22:14). Adam sinned, the wages of sin is death (Rom 5:16; Rom 6:23). It is sin to him that knows to do good, and does it not (James 4:14). Adam knew God’s commandment to not eat of the tree before he disobeyed God’s commandment (Gen 3:17). God held Adam responsible for his sin, God told him that in sorrow shall thou eat of it all the days of thy life (Gen 3:17). Eve ate of the tree because she desired to be wise (Gen 3:6). The serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty (2Cor 11:3). Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression (1Tim 2:14). <br /><br />Adam and Eve did not have to transgress to know good and evil like Mormonism teaches because they could have asked for wisdom before they disobeyed God's commandment (James 1:5). The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the opportunity to learn about good and evil. God could have taught them about evil by using the example of the devil who is a liar (John 8:24). God could have taught them about good through the wisdom of children obeying and honoring their Father (Eph 6:1,2). God could have taught them that blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life (Rev 22:14). <br /><br />It was not Adam's transgression that brought great blessings like Mormonism teaches, it was Jesus' obedience that brought great blessing to all of us, Jesus turned the fault into happiness (Rom 5:19; 412). All will be resurrected to stand in judgment before God (Acts 24:15). Transgression was not necessary to know good and evil like Mormonism teaches, Jesus knew good and evil and he did not have to transgress (1John 3:5). Having a physical body is not necessary for our progression as Mormonism teaches, the Holy Ghost does not have a physical body yet the Holy Ghost is God (Acts 5:3,4).Johnnyhttp://comparing-views.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-87618737815747401492009-08-06T07:32:54.064-05:002009-08-06T07:32:54.064-05:00Anon,
What fiction you are talking about!
Hahaha...Anon,<br /><br />What fiction you are talking about!<br /><br />Hahaha.<br /><br />Adam was the first man on this planet. Eve was the first woman. The earth before them was without form and void.<br /><br />If you were void, then you wouldn't exist or be able to type such nonsense.<br /><br />In the genetic pool, it wouldn't have mattered if the offspring of Adam and Eve had married or borne children as their DNA was about as perfect as humanity could get after sinning.<br /><br />Obviously now in our degenerate state, to mimic something that took place in terms of the early state of the earth, our genetic pool would not tolerate such a close resemblence in genetic make up in an in-bred situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-4086260848434075212009-07-26T06:25:19.593-05:002009-07-26T06:25:19.593-05:00This makes as much sense as the sun reflecting lig...This makes as much sense as the sun reflecting light from Kolob to earth.<br />Who did Adams sons marry? The children of the pre-adamite people who were already here. The rocks Adam used to build the Altar in Missouri(still standing after centuries) had fossils in it... only achievable by death and time.<br /><br />Adam is God, per Brigham Young and Eve was one of his plural wives from before this earth was formed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46380884711852107962009-07-20T03:46:06.811-05:002009-07-20T03:46:06.811-05:00WG@22
I am not sure that you will read this, but ...WG@22<br /><br />I am not sure that you will read this, but I will write anyway ...<br /><br />Don't be so rude - I have just read through the most of the comments here and I personally think that what Teranno4x4 is getting at is quite correct. I see his / her comments as polite and tactful questioning and you should be prepared to answer in honesty and grace, not with derision. <br /><br />Do you have the Spirit of Christ in you or the spirit of contention?Back to Basicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57360033353631757742009-01-20T07:23:00.000-06:002009-01-20T07:23:00.000-06:00Lots of speculation here. If the creation stories ...Lots of speculation here. If the creation stories in Genesis are for real, then which of the two is the right one? And about the pre-mortal state before entering this world: If God does not want us to carry any memories over from this estate, why does the LDS church teach us about these pre-mortal events? I can't imagine God being happy about LDS'ers letting the cat out of the bag? On the positive side: The LDS church is at least interesting, which cannot be said of traditional Christian churches of today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56771766224952650622008-07-22T20:58:00.000-05:002008-07-22T20:58:00.000-05:00Thanks for creating this web page. Please visit m...Thanks for creating this web page. Please visit my blog at realmormonism.blogspot.comWeston Krogstadthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00263425799672201276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53061372218363434372008-06-26T20:23:00.000-05:002008-06-26T20:23:00.000-05:00I have to say that the LDS position with regard to...I have to say that the LDS position with regard to the plan of salvation works from the premise that God's plan was dependent on sin. Also, to say that Adam had to fall is to presuppose that God would not have had Adam and Eve bear children unless they had disobeyed. The biblical text does not infer such a position. Also, to work from a premise that a "greater" law trumps a "lesser" law is dangerous. It doesn't make sense that God would give a lesser law for us to break so that a greater law could be obeyed. The error in this argument is that you base your understanding on the Book of Mormon rather than the biblical text, and to relegate the Bible to a diminuitive stature is to work from the premise that God would not and/or could not protect His revealed word, and that man has more power than God in this area. Though you might deny it, this is exactly what you are saying. The BOM cannot trump the biblical text, but is to be measured against it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30523960293756272922007-12-03T03:16:00.000-06:002007-12-03T03:16:00.000-06:00Dear Anon,As I told you it was 100% the Holy Spiri...Dear Anon,<BR/><BR/>As I told you it was 100% the Holy Spirit. I have absolutely no element of doubt.<BR/><BR/>Teranno4x4Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41527701037895911502007-11-28T03:08:00.000-06:002007-11-28T03:08:00.000-06:00T4x4, said:"How do you respond when I can 100% cla...T4x4, said:<BR/><BR/>"How do you respond when I can 100% claim that the Holy Spirit has communicated to me that Joseph Smith's message is one of deceipt?"<BR/><BR/>This is a different Anon, I have no idea what spirit gave you that information, from my experience as a convert to the LDS church, most if not all people are in the spiritual state that they should be. I have known did all they could to study, learn, pray, and fast to know about one religion or another, but thay could never obtain any conformation to assure them of what they should do. So if you have studied and prayed with a true desire to know what you should do, then you have done your part untill Christ decides other wise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-86370476798810234472007-11-27T03:17:00.000-06:002007-11-27T03:17:00.000-06:00Peter,I appreciate your comment and I agree 100% w...Peter,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your comment and I agree 100% with you. I also understood what you meant by 'we are all lost'. <BR/><BR/>But it is also true that we have the hope that is Jesus and it is to him that you point too. So we are in total agreement on this point. <BR/><BR/>I wasn't bickering with Anon. I was trying to find out what makes him so resentful of anyone that doesn't believe the same as he (inside LDS). He has made his thoughts known, that we all outside LDS must be listening to the wrong spirit.<BR/><BR/>Anon, are these the same spirits that you believe to be in your 'spirit world' seeing as they are not Holy ? Can you see how your doctrine can go around full circle if you make these accusations without truly knowing intimately an individual's conversion to Jesus ?<BR/><BR/>Teranno4x4Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45208626420206909922007-11-26T20:13:00.000-06:002007-11-26T20:13:00.000-06:00Because I can't be bothered explaining my comment ...Because I can't be bothered explaining my comment "We are all lost" just disregard that part please.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703965785236123679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3207021116254206572007-11-26T16:08:00.000-06:002007-11-26T16:08:00.000-06:00Guys, stop your bickering. We are all lost. If we ...Guys, stop your bickering. <BR/><BR/>We are all lost. If we all just follow Christ, as we are following Christ, we will be led to choose the right. There is no point fighting about someones belief of Joseph Smith as a prophet. Joseph Smith is not and never was the focal point. Just focus on Christ, doing what you believe to be right and I am sure that we will get through.<BR/>I myself know that Joseph Smith is a prophet. Teranno4x4 doesn't have to believe it, all we have to do as Christians is follow what we know, with an eye of faith and hope to Christ. As best we know how.<BR/><BR/>PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703965785236123679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-82125253016675766592007-11-26T12:09:00.000-06:002007-11-26T12:09:00.000-06:00Terrano says How do you respond when I can 100% cl...Terrano says <I>How do you respond when I can 100% claim that the Holy Spirit has communicated to me that Joseph Smith's message is one of deceipt ? </I><BR/><BR/>Well, since you ask, my guess would be that whatever spirit communicated with you was not holy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-43394455601445704912007-11-26T09:24:00.000-06:002007-11-26T09:24:00.000-06:00Anon,How do you respond when I can 100% claim that...Anon,<BR/><BR/>How do you respond when I can 100% claim that the Holy Spirit has communicated to me that Joseph Smith's message is one of deceipt ? <BR/><BR/>Does that have any bearing on your understanding or do you then come to the conclusion that I am lost, just because I do not believe the same as you?<BR/><BR/>I can confirm that the Holy Spirit pointed me only to Jesus as my Saviour. To worship Him in love and truth as reverently as I can by choice. He is the resurrection and the life.<BR/><BR/>Teranno4x4Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81418128346847956742007-11-26T07:35:00.000-06:002007-11-26T07:35:00.000-06:00Joseph Smith is a prophet just as much as Moses or...Joseph Smith is a prophet just as much as Moses or Peter because Jesus Christ choose him and through the Holy Ghost you too can know this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-82306132104165309322007-11-26T04:15:00.000-06:002007-11-26T04:15:00.000-06:00Hi Anonymous,Where are Adam, Noah, Peter, or Paul ...Hi Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Where are Adam, Noah, Peter, or Paul today ?<BR/><BR/>They are DEAD ! They were not perfect otherwise they would still be alive. I would like to offer that maybe you meant that they were changed to be sinless in Jesus Christ, not perfect. Perfection will only be applicable to the human race after man is translated into glory after the second coming.<BR/><BR/>Did you not read what T4x4 actually said : the sin was in the decision of Adam and Eve, not only the eating of the fruit in that they both believed that something was missing from their created state? That I see as not speculation but understanding. They chose not to rely on God finally. That also is not speculation - it is fact.<BR/><BR/>Can't you see that too?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31570831547376083872007-11-25T23:43:00.000-06:002007-11-25T23:43:00.000-06:00And who was Adam, Noah, Moses, Peter, or Paul that...And who was Adam, Noah, Moses, Peter, or Paul that they dare to say they knew G-d? How could Joseph Smith have known G-d? Just men made perfect in Jesus Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89936276503553831322007-11-25T02:02:00.000-06:002007-11-25T02:02:00.000-06:00Hi Tom,Nice to see a new person posting. It appear...Hi Tom,<BR/><BR/>Nice to see a new person posting. It appears that you think we worship Joseph Smith. Is this right? If so I would ask that you do some research into what we believe before you post.<BR/>Some good resources would be <A HREF="http://www.mormon.org" REL="nofollow">Mormon.org</A> or you could go to <A HREF="http://www.christ.org" REL="nofollow">Christ.org</A>. These should give you some good insights into what we believe. I am hoping that you will notice that our religion is Jesus Christ centered. I am also hoping that you would see that we believe that Joseph Smith was chosen to be a prophet for our day and age and not a messiah. To restore truths and knowledge lost. Though if you are interested in really knowing what we believe please look at the mentioned pages.<BR/><BR/>PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703965785236123679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36049380667242018092007-11-24T17:24:00.000-06:002007-11-24T17:24:00.000-06:00HI,Nature....is Nature!.....God is God.God decide'...HI,Nature....is Nature!.....God is God.God decide's what nature doe's.Who is Joseph Smith?...The self annointed one?The true Messiah,was Jesus Christ who sacrifised himself, for us,...the human race.Joseph Smith was probably just part of the Chorous line[deluded as he must have been].<BR/><BR/>Everyone believe's in something or somebody.Ask the Egyptian's and the Aztec's.<BR/><BR/><BR/>jOSEPH sMITH...CAN'T EVEN BE BOTHERED CAPITALIZING HIS NAME.<BR/><BR/>As far as I'm concerned....he's as you and I.I'm a bit concerned that he was another who had a revelation near a tree/Forest/Wood's/???.<BR/><BR/>The real Messiah was crucified,suffered and buried.<BR/><BR/><BR/>How did your joseph do?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15586575725246058792007-11-24T01:09:00.000-06:002007-11-24T01:09:00.000-06:00"I AM MY GOD"."This is the statement in summary th..."I AM MY GOD".<BR/><BR/>"This is the statement in summary that both Adam and Eve declared in their minds before they bit into the fruit."<BR/><BR/>Just more wild speculation about what went through Adams mind. Just making up scripture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-43799903500437138382007-11-22T03:45:00.000-06:002007-11-22T03:45:00.000-06:00Dear Anon,OK - I'll go along with your point (with...Dear Anon,<BR/><BR/>OK - I'll go along with your point (without agreeing) in order to explain ... until you realise that God Himself told them to stay away from the tree and not to eat it's fruit.<BR/><BR/>This means that it was no accident that Eve went to the tree. Did she sin yet? - of course not. When satan gave her the deceptive lie - had she sinned yet? - of course not. When she held the fruit in her own hands, had she sinned yet? - well possibly but we don't quite know accurately as she could still have walked away. <BR/>So the big question is when did she sin? The answer must be: once she had made her cognitive, intelligent decision. The eating only confirmed her decision. This equals what Jesus taught about those that look lustfully at the opposite sex have already committed the sin of adultery. The act itself is not necessary.<BR/><BR/>The implication in Adam and Eve's situation is WHO did they believe at that time. God or satan? If they believed God - they would not have been found in that place. So the conclusion is that they must have believed the lie from the deceiver. "They will be like God". That was their reasoning. They believed the lie that something was missing from their creative state. Adam's apostacy was worse in that he could only see a 'you will surely die' separation from his created partner, without any other understanding. He could see no further than that. That is what stimulated him to decide to eat. Nothing else. Their sin was in their DECISIONS, not ONLY in the eating.<BR/><BR/>Teranno4x4<BR/><BR/>1:40 AM, November 22, 2007Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45234677288025102452007-11-22T03:40:00.000-06:002007-11-22T03:40:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.com