tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post7926888486824837452..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Understanding Grace and Works: Grasping Prayer Might HelpJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57568677738369833652011-10-26T18:07:39.224-05:002011-10-26T18:07:39.224-05:00Dear jackg,
Thank you so much for your witness of...Dear jackg,<br /><br />Thank you so much for your witness of the Truth of Christ in love for the LDS people!Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46192910411302816972011-10-18T10:56:58.969-05:002011-10-18T10:56:58.969-05:00Mormography,
Does it bother you when any hypocris...Mormography,<br /><br />Does it bother you when any hypocrisy is exposed, or only when it is Evangelical, anti-Mormon hypocrisy that is exposed?GBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17806952561255425967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-7744730845496639702011-10-18T05:21:35.866-05:002011-10-18T05:21:35.866-05:00Anonymous Dan,
I truly appreciate your post. I a...Anonymous Dan,<br /><br />I truly appreciate your post. I applaud your efforts to hold people to their own standards. I will be sure to share this insight with Evangelicals I encounter in the future.<br /><br />You may not have notice Mormanity's comments above. However, your post is precisely the sort of thing Mormanity has explicitly requested be avoided here.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50551377023888745432011-10-17T01:22:16.946-05:002011-10-17T01:22:16.946-05:00[for what it's worth here's what I saw on ...[for what it's worth here's what I saw on the net: yours, Dan]<br /><br /> LDS a "cult"? What about the "rapture"?<br /><br /> by Bruce Rockwell<br /><br /> Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is "not a Christian" and Mormonism is a "cult," according to Rev. Robert Jeffress, pastor of the Dallas (TX) First Baptist Church.<br /> His "cult" remark is based on his belief that the Latter-day Saints church (which didn't exist before 1830) is outside "the mainstream of Christianity."<br /> But Jeffress hypocritically promotes the popular evangelical "rapture" (theologically the "any-moment pretribulation rapture") which is outside mainstream Christianity (Google "Pretrib Rapture Politics") and which also didn't exist before 1830 (Google "Pretrib Rapture Diehards" and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty")!<br /> And there are 50 million American rapture cultists (some of whom turn Wikipedia into "Wicked-pedia" by constantly distorting the real facts about the rapture's bizarre, 181-year-old history) compared with only 14 million LDS members.<br /> The most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history that I have found is in a nonfiction book titled "The Rapture Plot" which is carried by leading online bookstores. I know also that the same 300-page work can also be borrowed through inter-library loan at any library.<br /> Latter-day Saints believe in fairness, which is why I feel called to share this message.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-70765648263111496022011-10-16T22:21:05.979-05:002011-10-16T22:21:05.979-05:00Given the context and circumstances, I'm OK fo...Given the context and circumstances, I'm OK for now, anyway, with the existing comments above. But let's stay on topic and focus more on the issues of grace and prayer and not whose got the doubliest standards.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-71532459306818774212011-10-16T22:19:04.301-05:002011-10-16T22:19:04.301-05:00Having looked over comments a little more thorough...Having looked over comments a little more thoroughly, I can see that Mormography could feel harshly treated as one exchange reached a crescendo of exasperation. Let's all be careful not to fall into the traps that anger bring.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12924129594762099162011-10-16T22:12:26.355-05:002011-10-16T22:12:26.355-05:00JackG, thank you for your thoughtful and kind expr...JackG, thank you for your thoughtful and kind expression. Really appreciate the openness!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10470601162797898932011-10-16T22:12:20.237-05:002011-10-16T22:12:20.237-05:00JackG, thank you for your thoughtful and kind expr...JackG, thank you for your thoughtful and kind expression. Really appreciate the openness!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46894615018989263582011-10-15T20:25:01.852-05:002011-10-15T20:25:01.852-05:00It's rather informative to read God's reas...It's rather informative to read God's reason for calling Joseph Smith to be his prophet: "Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith..."<br /><br />In other words, God called Joseph Smith because of things that are happening and will happen in the world, in order that we might find refuge. God often calls prophets to perform this function. The children of Israel were liberated because they followed a living prophet. The people of Noah's day died because they would not.Popsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57495536703844623482011-10-14T18:13:27.810-05:002011-10-14T18:13:27.810-05:00Jackg,
Very well put, and I agree with you. I do ...Jackg,<br /><br />Very well put, and I agree with you. I do believe it is very possible to have a very close and meaningful relationship with Christ without knowledge of Joseph Smith and the teachings that have been restored through modern prophets and Apostles. I would even go so far as to say that it is possible to have that relationship without any knowledge given to us through any of his Prophets and or Apostles, either today or in New testament times or Old Testament times or even Book of Mormon times. If we treat a stranger with kindness, caring and compassion, especially in their time of need, then we have a very close relationship to Christ because we have done it to him whether we know him by name or not. <br /><br />But I do have to admit that I am so grateful for these books of Scripture. Because I for one don’t know how well I would do at following Christ without them. I am also very grateful for the teachings of modern Prophets and leaders. The best example I can give is the direction we have been given today of Home Teaching. If you once were LDS, then you know what I am talking about. This one concept has taught me more about what it means to be Christ like than most any other. It is one thing to talk about doing things for other people, but it is quite another to actually get out and do it, and to do it for the right reason. <br /><br />As a home teacher I use to do it because I had to. It was required, so I did it, but didn’t think much of it. But over time I came to realize that being asked by my church leaders to look in on and teach lessons and do things for a few members of my ward, was the same as if Christ himself asked me to do it. Some of the families I home teach are getting older, and need help with a few things around the house. I so enjoy helping them out when I go to their homes. I learn more about Christ in the one hour that I spend in each of these homes each month than I do in all the hours I spend in church meetings. I have come to care for them the same as I would my own family.<br /><br />Would I go out each month and check up on a few members of my church without that instruction? I shouldn’t have to be told to, but having been, has lead me to do it, and in so doing I have strengthen my relationship with Christ in a way that I would not have done otherwise.Kennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-11752986345792708822011-10-14T14:02:30.528-05:002011-10-14T14:02:30.528-05:00What I am learning is that holding fast to a doctr...What I am learning is that holding fast to a doctrine can lead to un-Christlike behavior. I believe in the Trinity, as most Christians do. Do I understand the Trinity to the degree that I can wrap my brain around it? No. LDS believe in three distinct personages, which is what sets them apart from what we will call "mainstream" Christianity. When we begin to protect our beliefs about this aspect of God, we begin to display un-Christlike behavior. We say things that are attacking and hurtful. So, I don't agree with LDS theology on this point, but I can agree that LDS are seeking the same God I seek. When I was LDS, I prayed to the same God I pray to, today. That has not changed. My information about God naturally molds my thinking about Him, but there are lots of things I just simply cannot comprehend fully because the finite cannot understand the infinite while still in a finite condition. I can accept that, and that is where faith comes into play. I believe in Jesus Christ despite the fact that I have not seen Him with my own eyes. And, to believe in Jesus Christ is the only thing I really need to believe. You can believe JS was a prophet, but I don't think one has to believe that to be in a true and living relationship with Christ. Conversely, I don't think believing in JS necessarily precludes one from being in relationship with Christ, either. You see, we let this stuff get in the way of the only thing that matters, which is faith in Christ Jesus who saved us through death on the cross, and that He is indeed risen again! I think we agree when it comes to this bottom-line thought.jackgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41879920655389084062011-10-14T12:28:01.833-05:002011-10-14T12:28:01.833-05:00It's OK to disagree with my views, if people a...It's OK to disagree with my views, if people are civil and open to dialog. It's also OK to disagree with Mormography. Keep it civil, of course. But Mormography, I'm not sure I understand what you find so unfair. When I get time to read the comments more fully, it might become clear.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83839274798901365582011-10-14T10:48:45.615-05:002011-10-14T10:48:45.615-05:00With prayer we are told, “ask and you shall receiv...With prayer we are told, “ask and you shall receive”. The Savior also taught us in prayer to ask, “give us this day our daily bread”. But how many of us would sit down at an empty table, bow our heads and pray for a meal to eat and then look up expecting God to lay before us a meal to eat? Or do we go out and work and/or plant and harvest etc. so that we have food to eat? <br /><br />So the question then becomes who provided the food to eat, us or God?Kennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63684245833761085502011-10-14T09:04:05.301-05:002011-10-14T09:04:05.301-05:00jeff,
I think you are off base when you give the ...jeff,<br /><br />I think you are off base when you give the reason for others saying we are not Christian. My experience is that others say we worship a different Christ. Our Jesus is the son of the Father. their Jesus is the Father. Very Different.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88414686518401619992011-10-14T06:57:57.761-05:002011-10-14T06:57:57.761-05:00Interesting example of confirmation bias in these ...Interesting example of confirmation bias in these comments. <br /><br />It is fascinating to me that some people just can't accept what the Bible actually says about our need to respond to grace with our own actions - the "fruits of the Spirit". Those fruits, while enabled to grow by grace, still are things that must grow from us. <br /><br />Saying prayer is not an example of our works / fruits / response to the Spirit is something that truly baffles me. Saying "prayer is not a doing" is . . . non-sensical. <br /><br />As far as the dominating conversation in this thread, I'll just say that there is a HUGE difference between attacking and critiquing - and Jeff is the epitome online of critiquing without attacking. It's why he gets so much respectful discussion - but it's also why he gets so much attacking, as well.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-5019115006157866052011-10-14T00:28:27.278-05:002011-10-14T00:28:27.278-05:00Mormanity - This exchange is with GB is yet anot...Mormanity - This exchange is with GB is yet another example. You tell me this blog is for dialogue, not attack, tell me to chill, etc., but do not tell your cronies the say thing. It is becoming apparent you are complicit to your cronies behavior.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-38124266669720672522011-10-13T23:28:07.793-05:002011-10-13T23:28:07.793-05:00Of course, you do with 2 Nephi 25:23 the same as w...Of course, you do with 2 Nephi 25:23 the same as with Romans 2:5-7:<br /><br />"...God ... will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life"."Popsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-79530922466800872692011-10-13T23:20:14.586-05:002011-10-13T23:20:14.586-05:00But what do you do with 2 Nephi 25:23 which clearl...But what do you do with 2 Nephi 25:23 which clearly says that we are saved after all that we can do. Even the LDS Bible Dictionary says the following:<br /><br />"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, 'It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)" (p. 697)."The Seeking Disciplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10850752852586928341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81991627946572585992011-10-13T21:26:54.418-05:002011-10-13T21:26:54.418-05:00Pops,
I can consider you to be a Christian despit...Pops,<br /><br />I can consider you to be a Christian despite the fact that you put a lot of emphasis on the necessity to believe in JS as a prophet. It has taken me a long time to put the JS stuff aside and see you and other Mormons for who you are: people who love God and who want to obey Him. I have considered fellowshipping with the LDS ward in my area because you guys really have a sense of community; however, I know I couldn't sit through the meetings and hear all the teachings of LDS leaders. You see, our relationship with Christ really trumps all that stuff, I think. You might not agree with me, but that's okay. I am not really trying to get you to agree with me, but to understand where I am, and I am where I am because of my relationship with Jesus Christ.<br /><br />Anyway, that's it for now. Take care and God bless. Wait...I do want you to know that I appreciate your words to me. I know what you say is generated by the fact that you care about me and my eternity. Thank you.<br /><br />Peace...jackgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13566394960123043422011-10-13T20:37:25.432-05:002011-10-13T20:37:25.432-05:00jackg,
I understand what you're feeling. The ...jackg,<br /><br />I understand what you're feeling. The issue with Joseph Smith is this: if what he said is true, then it's really God vs. a lot of self-appointed preachers. I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of that one.<br /><br />If God really didn't care about speicifics, then I would agree we should all sit around the campfire and sing KoomBaYa or whatever.Popsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81218398144933174382011-10-13T12:07:18.814-05:002011-10-13T12:07:18.814-05:00Mormography,
After looking at your blog, it is ra...Mormography,<br /><br />After looking at your blog, it is rather OBVIOUS that it is YOU that has a "long history" (if you want to call it that) of being the ATTACKER!<br /><br />I also notice that over your recent history of blogging (about 2 years, not much of a long history really) that you have only had comment (other than your own).<br /><br />Are you just jealous that Mormanity gets A LOT!!! more attention than you do?<br /><br />"It is a scathing attack on Evangelicals."<br /><br />Reading comprehension is a problem for you, apparently. "Evangelicals" were not mentioned.<br /><br />"Hence, using Mormanity’s own logic, Mormonism is anti-Evangelicals."<br /><br />Nah, your logic isn't sound.<br /><br /><br />"Just as you claim Jeff only “attacked” anti-Mormonism, then that is all Evangelicals are doing when they critique Mormonism."<br /><br />Nah, apparently you don't know the difference between honest critiquing and dishonest attacks.<br /><br />"I agree that the double standards are blatant."<br /><br />Yes, your double standards are blatant.<br /><br />"However, the double standards are not mine, but rather Mormanity’s."<br /><br />Nah, they are yours. You want to apply different standards for things Mormon than for things Evangelical.<br /><br />You want to ignore your "long history" of attacks, while whining about people responding to you.<br /><br />You are HERE attacking Mormanity, Mormons, and Mormonism. I have been to YOUR blog. NO ONE is attacking you there. In fact EVERYONE is ignoring you there.GBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17806952561255425967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-65381952285028537102011-10-13T11:35:31.722-05:002011-10-13T11:35:31.722-05:00GB,
So, are you conceding the "Mormon anti-E...GB,<br /><br />So, are you conceding the "Mormon anti-Evangelicalism" discussion and not you would like to move the discussion to Mormanity's statements against me?<br /><br />Not a problem, but before I provide the requested links you must agree to apologize after I provide them.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81898274253137860832011-10-13T11:06:18.171-05:002011-10-13T11:06:18.171-05:00Mo:I think your confusion is you are not aware of ...Mo:I think your confusion is you are not aware of Mormanity’s long history of attacking me.<br /><br />GB: It is you that is confused. I have been a visitor here for a long time. Your supposed "long history" doesn't exist.<br /><br />And citing a single (alleged) post doesn't prove a "long history" either.<br /><br />"The first post above is a cut and paste of one his comments aimed at me, which as he pointed out for me in his response, is questionable."<br /><br />Without providing context, your accusation is hollow. You are perfectly capable of providing a link so that all may see.<br /><br />"He jumps too quickly at his own reflection."<br /><br />Perhaps, but so far you haven't provided evidence to support your assertion.GBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17806952561255425967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-84677667743767135412011-10-13T05:59:53.979-05:002011-10-13T05:59:53.979-05:00GB,
Here is a copy and paste of what I have writt...GB,<br /><br />Here is a copy and paste of what I have written elsewhere on this blog regarding the subject. <i>“For what it is worth, I would classify Mormons as Christian as along as the caveat is given that it is a radically different interpretation of traditional catholic, protestant, or evangenlical Christianity. People interested in geniue dialgoue would do something like compare and contrast Coptic Christians who often simply refer to as Coptics, and who are almost always clarified as being Coptic Christians. Compared to Mormons, Coptics have merely added a few gnostic gospels to their Cannon, where as Mormons have added numerous scriptures to their cannon.”</i><br /><br />The added Canon demands faith not only in the content as being divine, but that in their origin as well. The Mormon canon (Book Of Mormon, Book Of Abraham) also demand faith in their origins as there is no more archeological/anthropological evidence of the BoM than the City of Atlantis theory of the New World, which is to same as saying there is no evidence.<br /><br />Wikipedia has Mormon's listed as part of Christianity. As we all know =) Wikipedia is the better determination of truth.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57617965494350025292011-10-13T04:24:29.658-05:002011-10-13T04:24:29.658-05:00GB,
I think your confusion is you are not aware o...GB,<br /><br />I think your confusion is you are not aware of Mormanity’s long history of attacking me. The first post above is a cut and paste of one his comments aimed at me, which as he pointed out for me in his response, is questionable. He jumps too quickly at his own reflection.<br /><br />The second part of my second post was from the canonized Joseph Smith history. It is a scathing attack on Evangelicals. Hence, using Mormanity’s own logic, Mormonism is anti-Evangelicals. Just as you claim Jeff only “attacked” anti-Mormonism, then that is all Evangelicals are doing when they critique Mormonism. I agree that the double standards are blatant. However, the double standards are not mine, but rather Mormanity’s.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.com