tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post7938087033996461309..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Let's Talk TurkeyJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88742239417188808572014-12-05T14:48:14.973-06:002014-12-05T14:48:14.973-06:00I just posted an essay about another possibility f...I just posted an essay about another possibility for Lamoni's flocks: http://bystudyandfaith.net/2014/12/watching-dogs-king-lamoni/Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08452906212149716503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53416126550828210852012-10-08T18:19:31.045-05:002012-10-08T18:19:31.045-05:00I thought of you:
Elder D. Todd Christofferson of...I thought of you:<br /><br />Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve opened the Priesthood Session of General Conference by asking those in the Priesthood to become men.<br /> <br />“The Church, and the world and women are crying for men,” Elder Christofferson said. “They are crying, ‘Rise Up, O Men of God.’”<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53372100885050827622012-10-08T17:19:58.836-05:002012-10-08T17:19:58.836-05:00You really do need to toughen up Jeff. I would sug...You really do need to toughen up Jeff. I would suggest joining your local boxing club and let those guys smack you around a little bit. Believe me, you will thank me for it later. Guys like you who let Mormon-Haters onto their blogs and write the most appalling lies, yet delete truthful comments like mine are, well, I don't know how else to say it but: sissies. Yes Jeff, you are a sissy. Someone needs to say it, and I just did. Stand up, be a man. Don't throw truth under the bus to make friends with a bunch of anonymous Mormon-Haters. It's time for you to look in the mirror and say these words out loud: "Jeff, you're a sissy and you need to Man-up!" Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12803648823338693322012-08-26T04:40:50.170-05:002012-08-26T04:40:50.170-05:00This is a great juxtaposition between sincere beli...This is a great juxtaposition between sincere believer (Weston) and reformist (Mormanity).<br /><br />Weston – It seems entirely reasonable that if your beliefs are indeed reality than proof would gradually catch up with it. Notice how Mormanity rejects this idea: “we should recognize that there is not going to be "proof" that removes the need for faith”. With this Mormanity allows the nature of God to include elaborately deceptive and intricate schemes to deliberately deceive humanity in order to test faith. When a person such as yourself objects, Mormanity will then insist you object to all the dominate monotheist religions because they also believe God engaged in such deceptive tactics in testing Abraham’s faith, essential declaring you an atheist if he is wrong. Eventually, despite lengthy discussion reasoning about God, the discussion will suddenly conclude that there is no point trying to reason about God, and that only Mormanity is qualified to reject other religions according what he has declared the nature of God to be.<br /><br />Weston – Have you consider the aligning yourself with the fundamentalist Mormons instead the ever moderating LDS branch of Mormonism?Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-69725364440201190582012-08-24T20:36:51.175-05:002012-08-24T20:36:51.175-05:00Excessive zeal does this sometimes, Weston, leadin...Excessive zeal does this sometimes, Weston, leading good people to swiftly turn on their allies when there is a difference of opinion. <br /><br />I don't know who you are or where you are in your journey of faith, but I'll share this warning from my experience with disappointed former enthusiasts: The inability to respect different opinions often leads to great loneliness and frustration, as one finds all former friends too lacking in fortitude, too fickle in faith, too "effeminate" in the fight, leaving only one true warrior on a very small peak in a world where even the former font of faith must be abandoned as an apostate, effeminate church. I pray that this process of decay does not happen to you. <br /><br />Meanwhile, I'll stay busy tossing the truth under the bus, or, as I see it, filling in some potholes and rough patches on roads and bridges so that others can drive across them on the way to Zion. <br /><br />Note, though, that in asking for respect and kindness from readers and in deleting offensive remarks, I am not abandoning any principle of the Restored Gospel that I can find in the official doctrines of the Church. Nothing in the scriptures requires us to call other people jerks. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-67430632536751848102012-08-23T14:46:50.356-05:002012-08-23T14:46:50.356-05:00Weston,
I don't know what world you think we l...Weston,<br />I don't know what world you think we live in. But if you think spouting out vitriol to everyone who's critical of your faith-based beliefs is a good idea, then you're only going to alienate yourself and your beliefs. <br /><br />Or do you think the anti-Mormons who actually <i>hate</i> Mormonism are effective apologists? You're about as convincing as they are. <br /><br />Hope you're proud.Openmindednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-54920303850641050512012-08-23T10:21:19.143-05:002012-08-23T10:21:19.143-05:00I do agree with the Mormon-Haters on one point. M...I do agree with the Mormon-Haters on one point. Many mormon men are far too effeminate. Far too lacking in testicular fortitude. Far too eager to throw truth under the bus while reaching across the table to those who hate them and are ready to knife them in the back. Have fun reaching across the table to the enemy Jeff, I thought more of you than that. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-34998870613366051152012-08-23T07:18:52.632-05:002012-08-23T07:18:52.632-05:00Jeff,
I've read your comments elsewhere to th...Jeff,<br /><br />I've read your comments elsewhere to the effect that the Arabian peninsula evidence is about the strongest historical evidence for the Book of Mormon so far. I'm curious to know what you think are the 2 or 3 most challenging potential "show-stoppers," as you refer to them above. Perhaps you could share that sometime. I've heard other apologists say that there is evidence for and against the Book of Mormon, but I've never heard examples of what they consider to be evidence against.Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13658177316592321952012-08-22T18:37:24.523-05:002012-08-22T18:37:24.523-05:00Weston, after my comment above, I saw a comment fr...Weston, after my comment above, I saw a comment from you that I felt was clearly inappropriate. It has been deleted. Please don't say things that are disparaging to other readers, especially those who have shown a great deal of intelligence and civility in their comments. I don't know who Openminded is, but the comments from this person have been a wonderful example of open-mindedness, civil disagreement, and intelligent contributions, in spite of disagreeing with us. We need interactions with people like Openminded to better understand the gaps in our faith and our own spiritual needs. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-49568077694208342852012-08-22T18:32:41.309-05:002012-08-22T18:32:41.309-05:00Weston, be careful on this issue. There are many i...Weston, be careful on this issue. There are many interesting areas where previous challenges with the Book of Mormon have been overcome, including some very cool things like the Arabian peninsula discoveries, but there are also a host of challenges. For each apparent slam dunk, one can look at other issues and see, if one wishes, show-stoppers that might lead one to reject the Book of Mormon. There are puzzles and challenges, and we should recognize that there is not going to be "proof" that removes the need for faith as long as the Lord is kindly giving us time to repent and come to Him with faith. <br /><br />I would suggest that we fine tune our rejoicing to gratitude for the evidences of plausibility that the Lord has "leaked" for the present time, evidences which can strengthen faith once applied and overcome some hurdles, once encountered, but which will not reach the level of slam-dunk proof. That gratitude needs to be coupled with patience as we confront puzzles and problems (gaps in our knowledge). It also must be blended with respect for the intelligence and sincerity of those who can't accept the Book of Mormon for the problems they see with it. They aren't stupid or just base infidels. Some good and smart people see things differently and struggle. It's not all slam dunks either way.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19389050559224280072012-08-22T18:28:43.712-05:002012-08-22T18:28:43.712-05:00I know that sounds harsh, but I really believe you...I know that sounds harsh, but I really believe you enjoy being bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50040588387780735632012-08-22T18:24:09.001-05:002012-08-22T18:24:09.001-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76085286111120558792012-08-22T17:28:05.530-05:002012-08-22T17:28:05.530-05:00Haha, riight. Remember this: the Indians were the ...Haha, riight. Remember this: the Indians were the Lamanites in the BoM! The Book of Abraham and all the facsimiles are a translation from the Egyptian language, and it was written by Abraham himself! The Garden of Eden--it was in Missouri!<br /><br />If you don't believe in any of <i>those</i> lines, it's because they were formerly mainstream beliefs from your religion, dropped or modified due to scholarship and proper criticism. <br /><br />Of course, plenty of people defect from Mormonism once they figure it all out. Internet forums for exmormons are growing pretty strongly. Surprise surprise--not everyone can handle all the cognitive dissonance. <br /><br />But you think hoaxes fade away over time? What do you think scientology, jehova's witness, and the like are doing? falling to the wayside due to their obvious hoax-ness?<br /><br />secularism is gradually taking over in the developed world, too. guess these secular ideologies aren't hoaxes at all, either.Openmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74617148957422331172012-08-22T16:03:50.571-05:002012-08-22T16:03:50.571-05:00I just like the way Jeff shows the entire world th...I just like the way Jeff shows the entire world the Book of Mormon is true. Everyone, I mean EVERYONE knows that over time a hoax slowly fades away into disbelief because over time it is proven wrong. While the Book of Mormon is the exact opposite. Every year there are more and more slam dunks. Remember this: "There were no trans-Atlantic voyages like this, it would be impossible!" Remember this: "The ancients never wrote on metal plates!" Remember this: "Indians didn't have a written language!" Remember this: "Indians never had priets and lawyers and governments!" Remember this: "The Maya were a peaceful people, not the way the BoM describes them!" SHWANGGGGGG! Slam-Dunk baby. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23411212165424504942012-08-22T13:21:34.650-05:002012-08-22T13:21:34.650-05:00lol, Weston. I feel like somebody offended you, re...lol, Weston. I feel like somebody offended you, really, really badly some time in the past with an anti-mo excerpt. Openmindednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16600131028782050322012-08-22T10:13:51.549-05:002012-08-22T10:13:51.549-05:00THWAKOINGGGGGGGG! Slam-Dunk Baby!THWAKOINGGGGGGGG! Slam-Dunk Baby!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-55416869686439896852012-08-22T07:18:59.057-05:002012-08-22T07:18:59.057-05:00Might it be that some Mormons are interested in be...<i>Might it be that some Mormons are interested in better understanding the text and discussing it for reasons other than apologetics alone?</i><br /><br />Not in this case. Just because Jeff treats the turkey question even-handedly does not change the fact that the question has apologetic ramifications. (Note the unjustified but highly predictable way Weston Krogstadt responded above to Jeff's musings: as if they were yet another faith-enhancing apologetic slam-dunk.)<br /><br />There are innumerable questions one could ask about the BoM that have no apologetic or theological dimension at all, yet they're never discussed here. Jeff isn't interested in the text itself. Which, as I keep saying, is fine; just be honest about it.<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83346444599331438442012-08-21T10:22:21.366-05:002012-08-21T10:22:21.366-05:00So Eveningsun, why does he turn around and point o...So Eveningsun, why does he turn around and point out the problems with the AMmon-turkey hypothesis and even raise the problem of domesticated animals at all? Might it be that some Mormons are interested in better understanding the text and discussing it for reasons other than apologetics alone? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21467188258997372132012-08-20T17:42:54.034-05:002012-08-20T17:42:54.034-05:00BINGO, And another piece of the puzzle falls into ...BINGO, And another piece of the puzzle falls into place. I wonder what the Mormon-Haters are going to say once an article like this comes out about the Mesoamerican horse. The backtracking from the Mormon-Haters will be quite amusing to read: "Well, we have always known there were horses in the America's, we just never knew when they were first domesticated, the BoM is still very false!" It will be something really classy like that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-34981651191698950692012-08-19T19:51:02.183-05:002012-08-19T19:51:02.183-05:00my wife has called fowl...the turkey hypothesis wo...<i>my wife has called fowl...the turkey hypothesis won't fly...which tapirs down the list of possibilities...</i><br /><br />Awesome puns, Jeff. It seems as though maybe your wife rules the roost, in which case it is you, not the turkey, who has been domesticated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46789243103555641322012-08-19T19:45:43.620-05:002012-08-19T19:45:43.620-05:00Maybe articles like this are, to some LDS, faith e... Maybe articles like this are, to some LDS, faith enhancing. I wanted to be an archeologist. My husband is a wildlife biologist. I read magazines of the different fields of science when I am able. I did not want to be an archeologist because I am LDS, but because when I was a child, before I understood religion, my Grandfather introduced me to the planets and geology. We would go to abandoned mining towns (1800's era) and hunt for antique bottles, and he would explain rocks and soil to me, and I was hooked. I like science for science sake. <br /> <br />My Catholic Aunt shows me things the Catholics put out to enhance their faith, and they are very good at it. I have relatives of many religions and they speak of faith building/enhancing subjects on occasion, that helped them. Sometimes people need a little help to recharge their faith regardless of what religion they belong to, me included. janicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-35600722245173258432012-08-19T19:32:36.907-05:002012-08-19T19:32:36.907-05:00"The turkey, though, is mentioned as Mesomeri..."The turkey, though, is mentioned as Mesomerica's only indigenous domesticated animal."<br /><br />So is there no evidence that tapirs were ever domesticated? <br /> <br />"Does the Book of Mormon text indicate that there were multiple indigenous domesticated animals? "<br /><br />Don't know about indigenous, but multiple, definitely yes. Kadmonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21750455862108642862012-08-19T18:03:26.809-05:002012-08-19T18:03:26.809-05:00Nephites were supposed to have kept the law of Mos...Nephites were supposed to have kept the law of Moses. How would they do that without sheep and goats? The law would have to be modified to allow for the sacrifice of turkeys in place of lambs. That would seem to be a significant enough development to warrant mention in a religious text. Anonymous Boschnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-7407429682153388242012-08-19T13:23:31.510-05:002012-08-19T13:23:31.510-05:00...okay. So we're trying to justify the appear......okay. So we're trying to justify the appearance of "flocks" in the BoM, and it's any surprise at all that the indigenous culture found some sort of bird to domesticate? Openmindednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60051412648935737992012-08-19T11:05:04.682-05:002012-08-19T11:05:04.682-05:00Jeff and many other members of the LDS Church simp...<i>Jeff and many other members of the LDS Church simply think findings like this are interesting.</i><br /><br />I disagree. The faithful think these findings interesting not in their own right but only because they are faith-enhancing. That's why the faithful are so fascinated by literary devices that the apologists hold to support the BoM's authenticity (devices like chiasmus), but not devices (like, say, anaphora) that are apologetically neutral.<br /><br />Ditto for this post's turkey talk. Jeff mentions it not because of its intrinsic interest, but because he believes it can make it easier to believe in the BoM as an ancient text. It's just more apologetics, which is fine; just be honest about it.<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com