tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post8397499234382724735..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: FairMormon 2017 Conference, Day TwoJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32264734013537427932017-08-15T10:30:37.899-05:002017-08-15T10:30:37.899-05:00The post on written language says the Lananites de...The post on written language says the Lananites destroyed Nephite records, so we don't expect to find anything. But the Jaredites, Nephite dissenters, the Gaddiantons, and eventually the Lamanites again had written language. Literacy was not uniquely Nephite and not eradicated by Lamanite victories. The answer given is terribly unsatisfying, including the implied claims that an Easter Island script somehow validates or is consistent with the Peruvian theory. Don't mistake "writing something" about an objection with adequately supporting a position. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-5783300866991098682017-08-15T10:20:29.513-05:002017-08-15T10:20:29.513-05:00I have not seen any reviews of the NephiCode by th...I have not seen any reviews of the NephiCode by the Mesoamerican camp. My remarks were purely my own based on having read a number of entries on that site. Assertions about roads and writing lack adequate support in my view. But if there is dating for roads that fits the Book of Mormon, I am willing to reconsider. BTW, what is offered for the River Sidon and volcanism?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-70880207649174148212017-08-14T12:42:16.253-05:002017-08-14T12:42:16.253-05:00Thanks for taking the time to respond Jeff. Please...Thanks for taking the time to respond Jeff. Please look further at Del's work. I believe that the opposite is true of what you mention. The Mesoamerica does not offer the correct setting. Look at all of the work and not just a few of the posts that he has on his blog. The Mesoamerica theorists distort the writing in the Book of Mormon so that it matches what they think, not the other way around. They say that there may have been others living in Mesoamerica at the same time, but where are they mentioned in the Book of Mormon? They are not. I would urge you to look further into his work without a pre-conceived notion that Mesoamerican theorists are correct. The Peruvian model offers much more than you think. And he does mention written records. Please look deeper. <br />To answer the question of no written language in Peru, here is a post he did on exactly that: http://nephicode.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-no-written-language-in-peru.html<br /><br />As far as the Incan roads, here is what Del has to say about them: http://nephicode.blogspot.com/search?q=ancient+highways+in+peru<br /><br />Thanks! Williamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-29653008217947126712017-08-11T21:05:57.825-05:002017-08-11T21:05:57.825-05:00Anon at 12:30 regurgitated a meme from some of our...Anon at 12:30 regurgitated a meme from some of our most hostile opponents: "Dan Peterson continues to malign anyone who opposes his narrow-minded interpretation of Mormonism. He's the least Christ-like person I know." Yes, the "Meanest Man in Mormonism" as Dan has often quipped. Out of curiosity, can any of your Dan-haters show me one instance where he dropped by an anti-Mormon blog or "enlightened sort-of-Mormon" website to just do a 100% ad hominem attack and call someone "the lest Christ-like person I know" or something of that nature, without engaging the arguments being made or offering the least support for an overwrought emotional outburst? If you can document Peterson's use of virulent "projectile commenting," I'd like to see it.<br /><br />If what "<b>least Christ-like person I know</b>" actually means is "<b>someone who dares to challenge my anti-Mormon views and hate of the Church and makes me feel terrible by backing up their defense with so-called logic and evidence that I just can't handle</b>," then perhaps he is the least Christ-like person you know. But what about me? I'm not as mean and nasty yet, I fear, but I'm also trying hard to be un-Christlike according to that definition (though following Christ by more normal definitions is what most of us Mormons actually seek to do, with apologies for our many shortcomings and occasional sarcasm). So if that's what you mean, count me in, please!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-72829485408267655292017-08-11T20:45:16.995-05:002017-08-11T20:45:16.995-05:00Glad there's so much interest in the geography...Glad there's so much interest in the geography of the Book of Mormon (except for Anon@1:50 AM, who apparently spends some of his or her free time reading LDS blogs just to tell us what a colossal waste of time it is to talk about our faith). I also think there's a lot of confusion that we need to discuss in some future posts. <br /><br />The NephiCode work may be interesting, and even LDS writers who recognized the strength of the Mesoamerican model have noted parallels in Peru that may point to migrations of Book of Mormon peoples to ancient Peru or other forms of influence (see Douglas K. Christensen, "<a href="http://www.bmaf.org/articles/did_book_of_mormon_people_reach_peru__christensen" rel="nofollow">Did Book of Mormon People Reach Peru?</a>" at BMAF.org). However, if the ancient Incan road system in Peru is being presented as evidence related to the mention of roads in the Book of Mormon, I have to wonder how they handle the issue of chronology since the Incans rose roughly 1000 years after the Book of Mormon ends. I see that the <a href="http://nephicode.blogspot.com/2016/10/finding-lehis-isle-of-promise-part-xviii.html" rel="nofollow">NephiCode blog</a> claims that these roads must have been there before the Incas--no citations given, of course. <br /><br /><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_road_system" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia's article, "The Inca Road System,"</a> confirms that "Part of the road network was built by cultures that precede the Inca Empire, notably the Wari culture." Their <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wari_culture" rel="nofollow">article on the Wari culture</a> states that they flourished "from about AD 500 to 1000." Any grand engineering achievements of the Wari culture and the much later Incas have no direct bearing on the Book of Mormon. I think it won't take much digging to find similar problems with many of the grounds offered for Peruvian locations. Certainly the Incan knot system and its early counterparts for accounting and some possible writing does not seem to support the tradition of written records in Book of Mormon times as one of the first requirements for a plausible setting of the Book of Mormon. Mesoamerica offers that. The Heartland Model does not nor does a Peruvian model, as far as I know. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90165127198747446702017-08-10T11:04:35.864-05:002017-08-10T11:04:35.864-05:00I am learning really a lot from the website that I...I am learning really a lot from the website that I mention above, Nephi Code. Del (the author of the site and of the books that speak more about his posts) goes into great detail disproving both the Mesoamerica theories as well as the North American theories. I would highly suggest going to his blog and reading what he as to say. He bases his theory on scripture as well as modern day prophets and apostles. And But mostly scripture because they were there. They know exactly what the land looked like, what was there etc. <br /><br />As an example, here is an excerpt from his blog: <br />"Thus, to find the location of the Land of Promise, we have to find an area that now and/or during the time of the Jaredites/Nephites, matched the entire list of descriptions found in the Book of Mormon. And we have to do it without changing the meaning, twisting the words around, inserting words that are not in the scriptural record, or deleting words or ideas that do not agree with one’s personal point of view, or claiming that these erstwhile prophets did not know what they were writing about, such as not knowing directions or what their land was like, or how it was laid out from north to south, or whether or not they meant sea when they said sea, etc." <br /><br />Another exmaple: <br />"Another important criteria are the roads the disciple Nephi tells us about when he said: “there were many highways cast up, and many roads made, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place” (3 Nephi 6:8). Samuel the Lamanite confirmed that there were many highways in the Land of Promise (Helaman 14:24). These highways were made of some type of solid material, like stone or a form of pavement, since Nephi also tells us that during the terrible destruction that “changed the face of the earth,” these highways were “broken up” (3 Nephi 8:13).<br />The highway system in Andean Peru is both remarkable and unequaled anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, and according to the conquistadors who first saw these roads, claimed they rivaled the highly acclaimed roads of the ancient Romans. This highway system ran 3,700 miles, from Chile to Ecuador, with an intertwining and interconnected network of 24,000 miles of roads and highways. Truly, this road system “led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place.”<br /><br />One last one because of the comments of the Hill Cumorah:<br />"One could go on and on about these Great Lakes Theorists and their ridiculous placement of Book of Mormon geography contrary to the scriptural location, but the point should be clear that just because Joseph Smith retrieved the gold plates from the Hill Cumorah in upper New York State, does not mean that there was not another Hill Cumorah in another land, called the Land of Promise. The Lord is not beyond moving sacred items from one area to another.<br />Remember, that Bountiful was an important location where Nephi built his ship and from which the Lehi Colony sailed, as well as a city and a land in the Land Southward in the Land of Promise. Jerusalem was a city in Palestine as well as a city in the Land of Promise. Numerous other examples of duplicate naming can be found throughout the Book of Mormon. To place an entire concept, model, and theory based upon a single location of any name is foolhardy and contrary to scripture."<br /><br />If you have time, visit his blog and see what he has to say. You may be surprised by some of the things that you can learn. I know I was. <br />Williamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60061668066814476882017-08-09T12:30:54.438-05:002017-08-09T12:30:54.438-05:00Dan Peterson continues to malign anyone who oppose...Dan Peterson continues to malign anyone who opposes his narrow-minded interpretation of Mormonism. He's the least Christ-like person I know. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-44402575098017393852017-08-09T11:52:21.971-05:002017-08-09T11:52:21.971-05:00I found it quite interesting to learn, when I firs...I found it quite interesting to learn, when I first started taking modern Hebrew courses as an undergraduate, that traveling toward Jerusalem was always "up", and away from Jerusalem was always "down"; one who left Israel was a "yored / yoredet" (a "descender").<br /><br />http://www.pealim.com/dict/848-laredet/<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-51698941767777288862017-08-09T11:24:35.515-05:002017-08-09T11:24:35.515-05:00Jonathan and Rian are both putting too much weight...Jonathan and Rian are both putting too much weight on some prophets' opinions. Opinions are not divine revelations, and prophets are not infallible. So some prophets believed that there was only one Cumorah - okay, so what? The fact is (unless it's been kept hidden for some reason), there has been no <i>actual divine revelation</i> as to the exact location of the final battle between the Nephites and Lamanites (or the rest of the Book of Mormon, for that matter). This means we have to use our best guesses based on the text itself, not solely on others' opinions.<br /><br />Mormon 6:6 says that Mormon hid all the records in Cumorah - except for "these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni." So the plates later given to Joseph Smith were specifically not buried in the original hill Cumorah, but another hill - the hill in New York where Joseph Smith later found the plates, which was later given the same name as the hill where the other records were buried (this, I believe, is the source of much of the confusion). Of course the Church is going to hold the hill in New York sacred - this is where the golden plates were buried, even if it's not the specific location mentioned in the Book of Mormon itself.<br /><br />Also, no, D&C 128 does not say that Cumorah is "in the vicinity of Susquehanna." It just mentions the place and then talks about Moroni "declaring the fulfillment of the prophets," after which other events in other locations are mentioned.Ramernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-35415519674334675942017-08-08T17:44:14.859-05:002017-08-08T17:44:14.859-05:00I don't see how a virtual map of the Book of M...I don't see how a virtual map of the Book of Mormon lands helps us in any way. I don’t think Book of Mormon geography can be placed in a virtual world like a video game. We don’t know when prophets say "up" in the book of Mormon, they are traveling north, or maybe traveling up in elevation and going south. Nowhere does it say the river Sidon flows north. In the Index of the Triple combination it says " Sidon, River—most prominent river in Nephite territory." It doesn't mention what direction it travels. When Ether 10:20 says the "Sea divides the land" that speaks of the Great Lakes dividing the land around them, and not the Isthmus of Tehuantepec which is a place where the "Land divides the Sea." Rather than arguing about the geography we should listen to revelation. D&C 128 talks about Cumorah being in the vicinity of Susquehanna, and Fayette in the northern part of New York. The Church has sacred land at Cumorah in upstate NY. They don't have an ensign to Cumorah in Meso-America. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery wrote Letter VII in 1835 which says the place of the final battles was at Hill Cumorah in NY. Joseph's vision of Zelph says he was a warrior in one of the last battles of the Book of Mormon, and Zelph was buried near the Illinois River close to Griggsville, IL. Joseph Smith wrote a letter to Emma on June 4, 1834 saying he (Joseph) was picking up the skulls and bones of that once beloved people of the Lord. (Nephites). This was near the Mississippi River close to Atlas, IL and Louisiana, MO., not in Meso-America. You can argue about D&C 125, but I believe the Lord would have Joseph put the name of "Zarahemla" for the reason of it being the same Zarahemla as in the Book of Mormon. Forget geography, listen to Joseph and Oliver when he was the Assistant President of the Church. Mark E Petersen said in 1953 “I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorah’s, one in Central America and the other one up in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central America to get the gold plates.” Ask a Meso-American proponent and they believe in Two-Cumorahs, which I think is not correct. I believed that for 40 years until I recently began listening to General Authoties. George Albert Smith said " Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill.” (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, Third Day—Morning Session p. 56) and Marion D. Romney said, “Millennia ago he declared: “There shall none come into this land [he was speaking of America] save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord… In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation… Thus perished at the foot of Cumorah the remnant of the once mighty Jaredite nation, of whom the Lord had said, “There shall be none greater … upon all the face of the earth.” (Ether 1:43.)… This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites...” America’s Destiny Marion G. Romney Oct 1975<br />These are quotes from prophets, and apostles that show the Book of Mormon events happened in "The Promised Land" of the Untied States of America. Why need we look further?Rian Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15466152574437721082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90729413603174926022017-08-08T16:36:13.318-05:002017-08-08T16:36:13.318-05:00Thanks for the helpful summary, Jeff.
There is on...Thanks for the helpful summary, Jeff.<br /><br />There is one problem you glossed over, however, The map you refer to has a serious defect. It doesn't show Cumorah in New York, where Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery said it was. They knew it was there because, as Brigham Young and others explained, they had visited Mormon's depository in that hill on multiple occasions. <br /><br />In Joseph's day, every member of the Church knew what Joseph and Oliver taught about Cumorah in New York. It was never questioned because Joseph made sure it was reprinted often enough for everyone to know about it. <br /><br />It was only when some RLDS scholars decided Joseph and Oliver were wrong that LDS scholars began questioning what Joseph and Oliver taught. Now, Mesoamerican proponents are actively undermining the credibility and reliability of Joseph and Oliver, purely to defend their Mesoamerican theories. <br /><br />That's a poor excuse for rejecting what Joseph and Oliver taught.jonathan3dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-6948637513310782852017-08-08T14:21:54.974-05:002017-08-08T14:21:54.974-05:00Don't let people like Anon @ 1:50 discourage y...Don't let people like Anon @ 1:50 discourage you. If this kind of thing helps someone or teaches them something new, then it's not a waste of time.<br /><br />I've actually read through some of the other conferences on Fair's website and found some of the speakers' topics to be very interesting. I wish I could have gone to this year's.Ramernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-47756197294161351112017-08-08T01:50:59.998-05:002017-08-08T01:50:59.998-05:00Wow, what a colossal waste of everyone's time....Wow, what a colossal waste of everyone's time.<br />As for Dan P, even rank and file members of the church have lost all respect for him. My dad, whose shelf boasts a full arsenal of Deseret Books, has removed all traces of DP.<br />Anyway, enjoy wasting your time, and try not to worry too much about the actual good you could be doing in the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66940447761871476682017-08-07T12:34:01.449-05:002017-08-07T12:34:01.449-05:00Correction: the landing site was in Chile, not Per...Correction: the landing site was in Chile, not Peru. Sorry about that. Williamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-54813577881352184322017-08-07T12:24:23.474-05:002017-08-07T12:24:23.474-05:00Hi Jeff. I have been following your blog for a ver...Hi Jeff. I have been following your blog for a very long time now and I love it. Another one that I am starting to follow is NephiCode. It is extremely interesting and I would recommend to anyone who is interested in the geography of the Book of Mormon to check it out. The blog is run by Del DowDell and supplements his books regarding how Lehi (nor Nephi) never saw Mesoamerica. He backs up his findings with a lot of scripture and a lot of history that just makes a lot of sense. He claims that the landing site of Lehi was Peru in South America and I believe it because of the evidence that he puts forth. Too much regarding Mesoamerica as the landing site and geography of the Book of Mormon does not make sense. But when reading Del's work, it does all start to make sense. Please check it out below and let your readers know your thoughts. It is well worth looking into: <br /><br />http://nephicode.blogspot.com/2010/01/welcome.html<br /><br />Thanks again for your insights. I love learning from your blog. Williamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-62216636887544547582017-08-06T10:40:40.340-05:002017-08-06T10:40:40.340-05:00Thank you for sharing this summary. I look forwar...Thank you for sharing this summary. I look forward to watching or reading these full summaries.<br /><br />One thought on Peterson's discussion of Beethoven's deafness. I wonder whether trials and suffering are in a very real way necessary for us to create and experience beauty, as 2 Nephi 2 discusses. Could his beautiful 9th symphony really have been created without his trail? Could Section 121 really have come to Joseph Smith without his desperate suffering plea in Liberty Jail?<br /><br />vbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06466532970982416190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90189583374451290092017-08-05T15:31:08.359-05:002017-08-05T15:31:08.359-05:00"Where should we look for linguistic evidence..."Where should we look for linguistic evidences or other traces of Nephite and Lamanite culture?" <br />Cuba and Florida, especially around Lake Okeechobee. The Book of Mormon tells us that its people built cement buildings, and where are almost all of cement ruins from the pre-Columbian Americas? On and around the Yucatan peninsula. And where do the ocean currents take you if travel north by boat from the Peten side of the Yucatan? Cuba and Florida. It's too bad the European colonizers wiped out so many of the native groups living in those places and that some of their languages are now unknown and so much of the archaeology is underwater.<br />Then there are the syncretic religions of small groups of indigenous Mexicans. The Cora people of Mexico adopted Catholicism late and half-way, and their syncretic religion has three gods: "Our Father," his wife, and their son, "big brother," who is now associated with Jesus Christ by those who believe in Jesus. The Rarámuri have a similar belief of a married God with a son they now name after Jesus Christ. Interestingly, the Rarámuri are thought to be descendants of the Mogollon culture, which started flourishing around 200 AD. If I were looking for traces of refugee Nephites from Mesoamerica around the time of Mormon and Moroni, I'd look north to the Mogollon and west to mountainous areas like the mountains of Nayarit where the Cora live.C Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01178189190498225759noreply@blogger.com