tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post8421782702791822823..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Weighing Mormonism: Thoughts for Mormon Doubters (and Readers of the New York Times)Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17728999564211420572014-06-03T17:08:11.541-05:002014-06-03T17:08:11.541-05:00I was a convert to the church in 1997. I left the ...I was a convert to the church in 1997. I left the church a few years later for many reasons but not because I thought the history was false. In 2010, I once again started investigating the church. I almost got baptized again along with my 10 year old daughter. At the same time, I went online and found so much negative information regarding the history (or lack of proof of Mormon history). When I questioned the Bishop and missionaries, they could not give me a satisfactory answer so I did not go through with the baptism. :( Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74269872767033653892014-01-28T14:40:01.763-06:002014-01-28T14:40:01.763-06:00Hmmm. I just read this...sad.
I am BIC, RM, Po...Hmmm. I just read this...sad. <br /><br />I am BIC, RM, Post BYU, temple wed and well educated. And Yes, I have occupied many positions which some would call Church leadership. I grew up in the heyday of the church, sitting at the literal feet of Monson, Packer, Dunn, Perry, as well as historians such as Bushman, Holzapfel and many others with whom I am well acquainted. We all knew "back then" that the Indians were Hebrew, that Blacks were of a cursed lineage and that we were the only true church. We knew that the creeds of all of the other religions were an abomination. We boldly declared these things before the world as we went forth to preach the restored gospel upon the face of the earth. <br /><br />Now I am surprised to watch this Kingdom begin to struggle for breath, and to cast about for anything solid to hold on to. The hubris of the former correlated "truth" is coming back to haunt us in a way we never expected back in the 1960's and 1970's. We are left to ask what has truly been "restored"? We are shocked when villains such as Warren Jeffs or Michael Travessor are imprisoned and we compare the actions of Warren and Michael with that of Joseph. <br /><br />Our General authorities are not bad people. I really believe these people possess good intent. This fact does not simultaneously establish that they are correct. It seems that they are unable to deal with our thorny issues in a manner which can comfort those of us who are surprised by doubt, good intent notwithstanding. There are real issues here which cannot be washed away casually or erased with good home teaching. Neither rhetoric nor good feelings will serve as answers and especially not propaganda laced with ad hominem insults. We doubters are already angry, feeling that we have been lied to for decades. What we need is NOT sarcasm, nor answers intended to invoke shame, or answers which are aimed at those who our authorities hope haven't really studied deeply. Answers have to make sense and they have to be true in a way that our correlated history wasn't. <br /><br />We doubt. And yes, we are legion. We fill our callings and read our scriptures and do our best and then... we leave. I know that all those who sincerely believe are not dopes, but more importantly to the issues at hand, not all who doubt are insincere. Many of them have great moral courage. I feel for Mr. Mattson and the Swedish group because they were not well treated as far as answers to their sincere questions. <br /><br />Frankly, a lot of the comments here which purport to deal with existing questions are also Pablum. If anyone deserves shame, it is not those who, as Mr Holland maintains must "crawl" over the Book of Mormon, but those who invent answers to obscure the truth. Nothing but the truth will do at this point. <br /><br />Why am I writing this? Simply to say that the angst of Mormon history isn't a stain that will go away with a mere rinse. Established yet doubting members like me may indeed indicate a tipping point in the future. Insincere and apologetic answers just won't do it anymore. We are not looking for answers and not particularly looking for religion. I am looking for truth. It seems to me now that I am looking in the wrong place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60589311699444899562013-10-13T19:35:48.071-05:002013-10-13T19:35:48.071-05:00I believe that I had read Mattson also questioned ...I believe that I had read Mattson also questioned the Second Anointing. So, maybe his issues were deeper than polygamy. There had previously been a UK Stake President, Tom Philips, who left because of the Second Anointing. I admit, I had not known about certain LDS being called aside by the hierarchy and called to receive this "Second Anointing". Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50446589367431355632013-09-05T13:25:44.809-05:002013-09-05T13:25:44.809-05:00"So if the LDS religion is so wrong and flawe..."So if the LDS religion is so wrong and flawed, then frankly, so is mainstream Christianity and mainstream Christianity is no better, especially with how it deals with its own past and history"<br /><br />The difference is Bible-believing Christians don't view Luther, Calvin or the Catholic pope as the very mouth of God the way LDS do with J.Smith. <br /><br />I'm sorry, but a man who threatens his own wife to be "destroyed" via "divine revelation" unless she accepts him to marrying other men's wives is inexcusable. D&C 132:52-56<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-20556288017237003872013-08-28T05:06:48.352-05:002013-08-28T05:06:48.352-05:00After reading on sites that are very much against ...After reading on sites that are very much against the LDS religion/church, I find it interesting that mainstream Christianity as a whole does not own up to its history. <br /><br />Where does the Catholic church teach its own history to its members? It has an awful history. Corruption, killing and enslaving indigenous peoples, hiding criminal priests, etc. <br /><br />Where does the Calvinists teach about John Calvin and all the horrible things he did? Same with Martin Luther - he was anti_Jewish. Martin Luther was a big influence on Hitler, which is why Hitler killed all the Jews. Martin Luther even believed in polygamy and there were practicing polygamists in his day that were Christians. <br /><br />Racism? Still practiced today by the majority of mainstream Christian churches. No Christian religion today teaches it imperfect, violent, racist and sometimes evil, history. Yet for some reason the LDS religion is supposed to have a perfect, impeccable past?<br /><br />So if the LDS religion is so wrong and flawed, then frankly, so is mainstream Christianity and mainstream Christianity is no better, especially with how it deals with its own past and history.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Loves All AnimalsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81859452080226331852013-08-11T22:10:34.307-05:002013-08-11T22:10:34.307-05:00I greatly appreciate the last "Anonymous"...I greatly appreciate the last "Anonymous"'s comments. As someone who has been a member my whole life, been through a period of inactivity in my late teens & early 20s, is married to a Christian non-member (21+ years), received my own endowment 12 years ago, and feel my testimony of the Gospel is stronger & more mature than ever (because of some anti-LDS run ins), I GET SO FRUSTRATED AT THE CHURCH! <br /><br />I'm a strong Republican, and mention that only because, like the Republican Party, the Church can't message for crap! Sorry to be so blunt; it is just terribly ridiculous & frustrating that such simple tasks as defending our faith (apologetics) seems beyond the grasp or desires of the church, the leadership, and the curriculum departments. <br /><br />We should be infusing every Sunday School class, Seminary, magazine & Institute class with doses of REAL apologetic information to help stave off issues just as those noted in the original article. I cannot for the life of me understand why this doesn't happen. Why are we so invested as a people and a culture of showing only the squeaky clean side of things? What about reality? Wouldn't reality strengthen testimonies more than whitewashing?<br /><br />Like Jeff, I was surprised that someone could NOT know of Joseph's polygamy, or that, considering the record of polygamy in scripture, that it would even be so faith altering. Yet, the image of Joseph we get at church is one of a nearly perfect man, not at all like Bushman's "Rough Stone." However, I believe Bushman's image is the one we need to have in our minds, one of a perfect God doing what He felt needed to be done to restore his Gospel through a highly imperfect man---one who was no more or less imperfect than the prophets of old. <br /><br />I enjoyed Ash's "Shaken Faith Syndrome," as well as his "80 Evidences" book. Both books did what I think is most important in ANY faith, and this is making many things that critics seize upon 1) understandable, and 2) offering a feasible explanation and alternative view. In this day & age, feasibility is vital, at least as much as faith. But sending out an excommunication squad to "deal with" the Swedes' difficulties doesn't make our faith look feasible, it makes us look foolish and reactionary- threatened by faith shaking questions and unwilling take the time to discuss questioners' issues. Questions that could be answered gently and with a teaching spirit, answered in such a way as to save one's faith, not destroy it. <br /><br />Such events do not shake my faith in the Gospel and the core beliefs I hold dear, but they make me sad, sad to think that we have so much to offer that gets clouded over, not just by "antis" but by church leadership itself. How many are leaving the Gospel over such simple issues? MuralMamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14933241765451600717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23371768814787378052013-08-07T10:37:45.491-05:002013-08-07T10:37:45.491-05:00Wow, this board is evidence that a lot of people h...Wow, this board is evidence that a lot of people have been deceived by Satan. "and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance."<br /><br />It is shameful for many of you to attack Joseph Smith as you are doing. Joseph was called of God to practice polygamy as were many, many prophets from the Bible. Yes, EVEN with women under the age of 18.<br /><br />What is so wrong with that? Just because Satan has twisted your minds in the modern era, doesn't mean that this isn't still a commandment of God. Read the scriptures, use them as your guide. Pray to God for guidance, follow not the ways of man to be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"<br /><br />Think about it, our society today is FAR more accepting of homosexuality than they are of sexual relationships of young men and women in marriage. Yet, God DESTROYED a city for homosexuality in the Bible. How twisted and backwards has our world become where sex between two men is normal, yet sex between a person under the age of 18 is a horrible evil!<br /><br />"Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil."<br /><br />Many of you have been led astray by the devil. Take the advice of Jeff and take a step back and look at how Satan has tricked you. We are in the last days and very close to the return of our Lord and Savior, let not your minds and hearts be deceived. If nothing else, cling to Faith in the Lord and be not led astray by the cunning of the devil.CFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-79006175549007866282013-08-07T03:51:05.486-05:002013-08-07T03:51:05.486-05:00Sorry, forgot this. Maybe it is irrelevant. In t...Sorry, forgot this. Maybe it is irrelevant. In the U.S. up to the 1900's child labor (very young- elementary age) was used extensively. The children were treated badly in many instances. Child labor was also used all around the world, and still is today in many countries, and yet where is the outcry about that? <br />Some fourteen year old girls did get married before the 20th century. So what? Even today fourteen year old boys and girls are having sex today. Where is the outcry about that? And what is being done about it?<br /><br />Also, 15 year old girls became school teachers in the 18th and 19th centuries. One example is Laura Ingalls Wilder. By today's standards that is unthinkable, unless the 15 year old is a genius and finished college at age 13 or so.<br /><br />Anon 3:38 AM, August 07, 2013Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-70353522345753786122013-08-07T03:38:48.533-05:002013-08-07T03:38:48.533-05:00Edgar Allan Poe married his fourteen year old cous...Edgar Allan Poe married his fourteen year old cousin, as did the musician Jerry Lee Lewis. There are other examples of older men marrying girls under seventeen. Was it common in the 18th and 19th centuries? Not really, but it did happen and no one batted an eyelash. We have to quit looking at history with 20th-21st century mores/morals/lens or what ever one wants to call it. Just like we have to read Scriptures in the context of when it was written, to whom and for what purpose and so on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-61938033070031779092013-08-07T02:50:59.836-05:002013-08-07T02:50:59.836-05:00I was disappointed with some of the answers.
I a...I was disappointed with some of the answers. <br />I also fail to understand how Mattsson got to such a high position without knowing at least some of the issues that were brought up by the Swedish members. (I have Swedish ancestry!)<br /><br />It is easy to read about troubling issues of the church on sites that are not pro LDS. I read some stuff on these sites and they are very good at convincing people that the information they present is totally true. One really has to dig and double check the information these "anti" sites put out. I got upset about some things I read and started to doubt the church, and once I researched the claims on my own I found out the site was dishonest. A good example is critics said there was no religious fervor nor revivals or meetings in J. Smiths area. I learned about this in college history without Mormons being mentioned, and even the Internet confirms this information as true. The majority of people, through out the world, believe everything they read or watch or listen to, without trying to find if what they heard was factual. Of course sometimes it is hard to find the truth. Sometimes we just do not know and must withhold judgement. Hard to do as humans.<br /><br />Another issue is that in Utah there are tons of Firesides, seminars, educational series, etc. available, but to those who do not live in Utah, and especially in other countries, the members really never hear this information. It would be wonderful if these Firesides, etc. could be done in other countries and other states, and not just in Utah. I feel cheated that I do not have the same opportunities and access to these Firesides, seminars, etc. that those in Utah have. A good example is when Margaret Barker and others present information about Temples. It is either in Utah or England. I can't even imagine living in another country, where the LDS population is small and there are very little resources and so far away from church headquarters. Yes some of this information gets on the Internet, but do LDS members in other countries, and new converts, really know about the pro LDS Internet sites and all the wonderful information by LDS scholars? Not to mention information from church authorities. I seriously doubt it. <br /><br />I also find it interesting that when some members find out troubling information they handle it quite well, but some members fall apart with the same information. I also think some of the issues are petty. Different levels/degrees of testimony and faith? <br />What helped me is I started to dig into the deeper doctrines, research Christianity throughout the ages, study other religions, etc. I came to believe that Joseph Smith could not have been a religious genius,as some say, nor was he lucky in guessing. The only way Joseph Smith could have known what he did was through Divine teachings. My testimony is intellectual. There is too much information that we now have that Joseph Smith did not have that matches with his teachings and revelations. Was Joseph Smith flawed? Yes, we all are. God has to work with imperfect humans to accomplish His goals. It took a lot of study, reading, and digging for information because I live in an area where resources are few, unlike in Utah or large cities. <br /><br />If the LDS doctrine is wrong, then members are no worse off than the rest of Christianity. And it means the Jews are the true religion/gospel. And in all honesty if it was not for Joseph Smith seeing Divine Beings I would probably be an Atheist, or not very religious. <br />Thank you. JRSGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75749896169715837042013-08-01T08:56:25.877-05:002013-08-01T08:56:25.877-05:00If Joseph Smith didn't intend to have connubia...If Joseph Smith didn't intend to have connubial relations with any of his plural wives that were married to other men (or any that weren't), couldn't he have told them that up front, and if he did, wouldn't they have been relieved to find that out and not shocked or scandalized? What's the big deal about being sealed to Joseph Smith if no sex is involved? There would have been no reason for Sarah Pratt to react the way she did. No reason for Nancy Rigdon to react the way she did. No reason for Heber and Vilate Kimball to be concerned over Joseph's revelation that he was to take Vilate as a plural wife (I know he didn't go through with it, but if the polyandrous marriages did not involve sex, he apparently concealed that fact from them). There also would have been no reason to conceal it from the general membership in Nauvoo. If it was merely "sealing" without physical relations, why hide it? <br /><br />During my mission, missionaries would explain to nonmembers that polygamy was used to take care of widows who lost their husbands while crossing the plains, and that no sex was involved. This was a lie, of course, and I knew it at the time, but my companions picked up this apologetic dodge in the MTC. I was recently surprised to learn that missionaries are still perpetuating this falsehood (that I'm sure many of them believe) more than 20 years later. Sidneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-28614347183220849492013-07-31T19:06:24.494-05:002013-07-31T19:06:24.494-05:00The referenced verse talked about people that live...The referenced verse talked about people that lived here on Earth. As far as we know, Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost have not lived here on this Earth so Joseph definitely does not qualify to be #2.<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-54803828855835228812013-07-31T16:59:37.693-05:002013-07-31T16:59:37.693-05:00Steve,
I am very good natured. But I am truly c...Steve,<br />I am very good natured. But I am truly confused.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10132410056533086942013-07-31T12:56:14.738-05:002013-07-31T12:56:14.738-05:00Are you referring to Doctrine and Covenants sectio...Are you referring to Doctrine and Covenants section 135 verse 3?<br /><br /> 3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.<br /><br />So, I think the answer to your question is that Joseph is not #2. But maybe you were just giving us all a good natured jab.<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16946382097933690662013-07-31T11:30:36.143-05:002013-07-31T11:30:36.143-05:00When the Doctrine and Covenants says Joseph has do...When the Doctrine and Covenants says Joseph has done more than anyone, save Jesus, does that mean more than the Father and Holy Ghost, which would make Joseph #2?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-34000934314548978022013-07-31T07:56:55.852-05:002013-07-31T07:56:55.852-05:00I would not want Joseph near my wife or kids. He...I would not want Joseph near my wife or kids. He was a Mason. A Masonic covenant is to not be with another Masons wife. Perhaps he was not shot for his religious persuasion. Perhaps Masons in the crowd shot him fo messing with the wives of fellow Masons. <br />Is Joseph normal? I know Jesus is perfect. What is perfect. I fear perfect may be narcissism and CEO behavior. Will Jesus be the kind loving man portrayed by Christian Churches, or a mean wife stealing man. GAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-43814206589776473152013-07-30T23:23:55.942-05:002013-07-30T23:23:55.942-05:00Read the literature. The case for Joseph "ste...Read the literature. The case for Joseph "stealing" wives is based on assumed sexuality in those sealings and conflicts with the way those "cheated" men responded: staying on good terms with Joseph. Not something imaginable if what you think happened actually happened.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-38977089626013411332013-07-30T20:20:21.651-05:002013-07-30T20:20:21.651-05:00These two things are rock solid. When I understood...These two things are rock solid. When I understood the truth of them and I recognized the source of the contradictions, I understood the reality. Contradictions arise from false assumptions. "Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." as Ayn Rand put it. Those are words I can reliably live by. I have found that when I observed what appeared to be contradictory behavior in others, that I had simply made false assumptions about a person's character or intent. This I found to be true of the Church, her leaders, and her doctrines. The webbing I had spun to hold together all the things that I had tried to force understanding on started snapping and I was suddenly relieved that I was no longer responsible for holding the entire fabricated mess together in my head. <br /><br /><br />Maybe Joseph was part of some grand conspiracy of Sydney Rigdon's design. Maybe he was the sole author and he originally intended to just sell a book to the public and things got bigger and bigger until they got out of hand. Maybe there's some other natural explanation for it. But what was does become abundantly clear is that as things moved forward he tried to expand his power and wealth in the temporal realm by declaring his authority over the eternal. <br /><br />This isn't a matter of throwing the baby out of the bathwater, this is a recognition that there is no bath, there is no baby and there is no water.<br /><br />As I researched and research now there are certainly other areas that are less clear than these. We do know for a fact that there were those who believed that they had children through Joseph Smith. <br /><br />Recognizing the reality of this world has made me value it even more and there has already been so much time wasted on nonexistent things. I wish I could stop researching, but I recognize a responsibility to be well grounded in my sea change decisions. Having pulled back the curtain and seen the wizard, I cannot unknow what I have learned.<br /><br />So, when I read the NYT article, listened to Dehlin's interview with Mattson, read the transcript and then listened to the audio of the meeting as well as statements from others about what happened after the meeting I found even more damning evidence of the Church's representatives' willingness to threaten, manipulate, and lie to keep others in line. Those are not insults or extreme descriptions, those are cold hard facts. Find this information and give it an objective listen. What does the truth have to fear from the lie, I do know what lies fear. On the audio the Jensen and the others there spend the first 38 minutes or so telling these honest seekers that they are anti Christs if they do not accept their explanations. Then they spend a little less than an hour giving very poor answers to very sincerely delivered questions. The excuse of limited time is given again and again, when I am sure that these Swedes would have given them as much time as they wanted. Then having failed at that they remind them that they are of the Spirit of Satan if they do not agree with and accept the answers and then tell them that they need to declare whether they will remain with the Church after that. This is followed up by bishops going around to their homes with further demands. On the surface this may appear to be contradictory of the Church's teachings, but if you reexamine your premises, you'll find that it's not. <br /><br />I'm not so much angry at them as I am at my own blind foolishness.<br /><br />-MindogAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-34942680744484245662013-07-30T20:19:29.018-05:002013-07-30T20:19:29.018-05:00Blake: It is the prophets that declare their own d...Blake: It is the prophets that declare their own doctrinal perfection. They tell us that they will never lead us astray. They tell us that we should do what they say even if they are wrong and we will be blessed for it. I can't stand by that principle not matter how grey. Pres. Hinckley declared that there are minor wrinkles and such in Church history, which you later find to not be wrinkles or minor issues but fissures reaching down into the foundation. I can understand mistakes, we are all human. But I did not find a pattern of minor mistakes. Certainly the world does not exist in black and white, but do not tell that to the Church. You may see the history and the organization that way, but the ones to whom you declare your allegiance do not. In fact it is heretical to think that, you have no authority based on the structure you are trying to support. <br /><br />Compromises certainly must be made to move forward in life, but at which point does compromise become hypocrisy and lying? Do you have a border that you would not cross? I did.<br /><br />For me, the moment of clarity came with the Book of Abraham. In your mind this may be some canard that has been easily dealt with. Translation is not translation, but the facsimiles presented in PoGP declare that assertion to be incorrect. Joseph Smith specifically points to symbols and graphics and declares their meanings. The falsity of the translation has been publicly discussed for over a hundred years, including but not limited to the New York Times. Portions of the papyri, including one of the facsimiles printed with the PoGP have been with the Church since the late 60s. I was entirely unaware of this fact. You may say that this has been public information, but it was certainly never discussed in the years of Primary, Sunday School, Seminary, BYU, Institute, MTC, mission, EQ meetings, etc. all down the line my entire life. It may have been printed in 1968 in the Ensign, but I wasn't around then. The electronic versions made available in the scripture apps and online only go back to 1971(for good reason, I am told). I did not think to look into the issue, because I was kept unaware that the issue existed. Any other associations that apologists declare positives happen over such a vast span of time to become entirely meaningless. The few "hits," as apologists like to point out, are not actually hits. Quadrants are not the same as cardinal points. And certainly the misses voluminously outweigh the hits. Even the story of the extra long missing papyrus comes from an unreliable quarternary or worse source. One would think that the Church would have the papyri they have on permanent display along with other useful relics like the seer stones. The fact remains that what he have now has nothing to do with what has been printed.<br /><br />I, however, had heard of the Kinderhook plates growing up. I had been told that Joseph had seen through the lies of the fabricators and had never translated them. That is what the apologists declare today. This may be historically true, though contemporary second hand accounts say otherwise. However, what is undeniable is that those speaking on behalf of the Church said otherwise up until 1980 when incontrovertible evidence came forward with the discovery and testing of one of the plates. In the face of that glaring evidence, and not even until the second round of testing, the Church had to seismically shift from saying that the Kinderhook plates were evidence of Joseph's miraculous power to discover and translate ancient records to one where he had never been deceived since he had never translated and that they had always said so.<br /><br />-MindogAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37239237782932593562013-07-30T20:00:07.622-05:002013-07-30T20:00:07.622-05:00Hmmmm...
Wouldn't you think they'd have t...Hmmmm...<br /><br />Wouldn't you think they'd have the guidance of the Holy Spirit on such a momentous occasion? It could have helped avoid this becoming a painful issue that has just festered over the last 3 years. I would have expected the Holy Spirit be on the church's side if not that of individual struggling members.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18135133315147588572013-07-30T19:57:04.824-05:002013-07-30T19:57:04.824-05:00(different Anonymous here) Fascinating topic, hea...(different Anonymous here) Fascinating topic, heart-wrenching emotions for a lot of people, and some tough issues to address for the LDS church. I feel for Marlin Jensen, who in around the same time period as this meeting, admitted to a group of USU students that the LDS church is dealing with a substantial "apostasy", not seen since the Kirtland Bank failure.<br /><br />Most of this boils down to the nature of belief, how it is formed, the mental context and understandings that buttress the accompanying emotional state, AND how additional facts inform or impact the emotional state of faith.<br /><br />My own experience was similarly difficult, namely reconciling how much of my testimony was based on the (once quite popular) stories of Paul H. Dunn. My testimony was powerful, emotional, moving (to me). When it was revealed that Dunn had fabricated at least some of his stories, it rocked my world, my understanding of things, of authenticity of testimony, etc.<br /><br />How could what I felt be based on a lie? Is it possible to have testimonies built on inaccurate or not entirely truthful accounts of what happened before? This has happened millions of times with people who believed in the literal flooding of the Earth, or Adam and Eve, or that human beings came out of a hole in the ground (if you're Navajo).<br /><br />Many LDS are going through similar turbulence as their understandings of Joseph Smith and early church history are sometimes radically challenged. A woman I know was unable to finish Bushman's book because it was just too uncomfortable, too disruptive of her own paradigm. That's understandable.<br /><br />This isn't just a problem for Mormons. People in every religion have struggled with doubt, with conflicting information that disrupts their understanding, their "faith". In my view, that doesn't mean that their quest to understand and attempt to return to the divine was worthless. <br /><br />What did believers in Thor go through as Christianity moved through northern Europe? What about believers in the various Polynesian gods, certainly many members of Islamic sects, Christian sects, lots of Jews, etc.<br /><br />In my work, I associate with a lot of Hindus, and find similar questioning about the (extraordinarily impressive) dedication to ritual and faith of their parents and grand parents. <br /><br />Among orthodox Hindus, there is great prayer, sacrifice and offerings to different deities, and as conformational evidence occurs in their daily lives, the emotional bonding is very, very powerful, moving.<br /><br />I've been fortunate enough to experience very powerful emotions myself in a Shoshone sweat lodge, where the message was very simple, positive, and the voices of the faithful very moving. There were no drugs or peyote involved, but neither was there any mention of Jesus... only the Creator.<br /><br />Just as I don't judge the Hindus for their fascinating and very sincere beliefs, I don't judge Mormons (or anyone else) for their faith, even though merely equating the two may seem like a back-handed compliment, from the LDS mindset.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-22767026204573217542013-07-30T19:38:43.488-05:002013-07-30T19:38:43.488-05:00I do not mean to blame the historians from the Chu...I do not mean to blame the historians from the Church in their kind attempt to visit and strengthen the Saints in Sweden. It is great that they were willing to openly discuss the numerous issues. But I don't think they realized how deep the concerns would be and what some of the specific objections were, and the meeting appears to have been hastily done and without all the time and preparation that would have been ideal. For example, when the statement was made that a woman didn't know who was the father, the statement wasn't challenged with the easy challenge that can be made. It would have been helpful to at least indicate that Hales has pointed out that the only source for this hearsay quote was a hostile source who has been attacked even by other critics for being unreliable, and who obviously got numerous related details wrong. There were quite a few more specific answers that could have been given. <br /><br />In retrospect, it's easy for me to say that it would have been better for the team to come prepared with handouts listing resources for the major contentious issues, and maybe spending a little time showing how to find answers at, say, the Maxwell Institute and on LDS.org. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18806511286716269382013-07-30T16:32:58.737-05:002013-07-30T16:32:58.737-05:00If Joseph Smith came to my house I would not let h...If Joseph Smith came to my house I would not let him near my wife. I would not leave them alone lest he order my wife to marry him. <br /><br />This is beginning to be a very sad situation. <br /><br />A precept of Masonry is to never mess with another Masons wife. I have heard it said Masons were in the crowd that shot Joseph. Perhaps he needed to be shot to protect families. Perhaps he was such a Narcissist and wife stealer that shooting was justified. Perhaps those of us in the church are coming at Josephs murder from the wrong angle. <br /><br />How could a prophet be such a man? Stealing a mans wife -- is that as bad as stealing his horse? Horse thieves were shot. Being sealed to 14 year olds? Is this man a prophet? <br />DaleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-72144612074829762232013-07-30T09:09:48.175-05:002013-07-30T09:09:48.175-05:00There is belief such as Albert Einstein had when h...There is belief such as Albert Einstein had when he theorized about the cosmos at a time when few could even understand the questions he was asking and belief such as Watson and Crick had about the existence and structure of DNA. They explored their belief and shaped it into hypotheses and gave it out to the world to investigate, question and verify. <br /><br />And then there's a kind of belief that people here are asking for. It says be wary of questions. Don't let your investigations wander from the pre-ordained conclusions. Don't let evidence to the contrary dissuade you. Expect conflicts with verifiable evidence.<br /><br />Which, I ask, will get you closer to the truth?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39155557692074526062013-07-30T07:40:12.124-05:002013-07-30T07:40:12.124-05:00Mindog: A part of the challenge of growth is reali...Mindog: A part of the challenge of growth is realizing that not everything fits into the neatly crafted boxes and concepts that we create. We all go through reassessment and reconfiguring. It is part of the process of learning. The world is not as neat and tidy as we would like I suppose. That is why giving up inerrantist nonsense about prophets is essential.<br /><br />The world of church history is not a matter of black and white clarity. Finding exactly what occurred is especially difficult when it comes to matters of history where we rely on less than complete data, often conflicting accounts and just plain holes in the evidence that we have to fill to reconstruct what we suppose may have happened. We deal with the particularity of the perspectives and biases of those involved and who write accounts or letters on which we rely. It is a very human endeavor.<br /><br />My only point is that many people make claims about Joseph Smith and his practice of polygamy, or what he claimed about how he did the translation, that are either false or not clearly supported by evidence. They often assert facts that are sometimes demonstrably false (e.g., claims made by some here about Joseph Smith having sex with 14 year olds), or the evidence will not support assertions made (e.g., Joseph had sex with other men's wives) or they make claims that are anachronistic and erroneous (Joseph used only his "seer stone" to translate).<br /><br />Doubt is not contrary to faith, it is a part of the process of growing in faith by growing as a person to realize that the world doesn't always accommodate our expectations and pre-fabricated mental schemes. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The gospel is invaluable and fosters love and growth even if it doesn't always fit our mental schemata that we have put in place and mistaken for the gospel. Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07042652787154610375noreply@blogger.com