tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post87065023403464297..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Exactly When Do Saved Christians Lose Their Souls?Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger87125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-70529522845665964532012-12-22T12:26:47.326-06:002012-12-22T12:26:47.326-06:00James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 i...James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.<br /> "In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). -- Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30-34 to show that we can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.<br />creeksalmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09269626993851685681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-38975554248094376732012-12-22T12:24:07.418-06:002012-12-22T12:24:07.418-06:00In 1984 the Quorum Of the Twelve were paid in the ...In 1984 the Quorum Of the Twelve were paid in the range of $60 to $80 thousand a year for living expenses, excluding benefits. This does not include any money received by business ventures or sitting on the board of directors for other companies. Most all General Authorities of the LDS Church are wealthy businessmen; most have companies whose income exceeds a million dollars a year. Most General Authorities have bank account balances in the six digit figure. In addition to the modest salary, the Prophet and his Apostles are given living arrangments. Thomas S. Monson lives in a 24000+ square foot condo estimated at a value of $2.8 million. The Prophet and his Apostles all have 24hr limo service provided by private drivers. The Prophet has 24hr "secret service" bodyguards who protect him anywhere he goes. <br /><br />Quinn's book Extensions of Power does have more current numbers that also delineate by rank. The Prophet makes the most, his two counselors slightly less, and the remaining twelve lesser still. What Quinn also points out though, is that until earlier in the 20th century local bishops and stake presidents were in fact paid from a percentage of the tithing funds collected. <br /><br />When the Mormon Prophet David O'McKay died in 1970 he had an estate worth an estimated at half a million dollars. David was a lifetime church employee (64 years) and accumulated this wealth from the LDS Church. <br /><br />General Authority figures in Mormonism are treated as heros and celebrities. General Authorities expect obedience and reverence around them and command enormous power over the members. If a General Authority walked into a Mormon chapel and demanded everyone get on their hands and knees, not a single person would be standing. <br />creeksalmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09269626993851685681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-62663656915915310182011-01-14T19:33:56.298-06:002011-01-14T19:33:56.298-06:00Bryan,
After the 1000 years - Heaven comes down to...Bryan,<br />After the 1000 years - Heaven comes down to the earth for the absolute final battle between 'evil and good'. The saints are protected in the heavenly city, the new Jerusalem, now on earth and the battle ensues.<br /><br />Evil is eradicated through fire and brimstone along with all natural and physical elements outside the city. Once purified and cleansed the earth is re-created as it was in Eden and the saints live with God in the re-created earth for all eternity.<br /><br />Read Revelation chapters 21 and 22.<br />Also Isaiah65:21-25 .<br /><br />Blessings!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30939579004408721352011-01-14T19:27:12.426-06:002011-01-14T19:27:12.426-06:00Bryan,
I think that you need to read the book of ...Bryan,<br /><br />I think that you need to read the book of Revelation to understand that Jesus is coming back soon to take His saints to the place that he described whilst He was with us during His ministry. (John 14:1-21).<br /><br />Revelation also describes implicitely, that Jesus will take the redeemed to live with him during the time of the Millennium or 1000 years. The place that they go to is God's dwelling place, otherwise known as the 'heavenly home'.<br /><br />Jesus often spoke of complete opposites. of divides and of judgmment. Remember the sheep and the goats, remember 'many are called, few are chosen', or :<br /><br />Matt 7: 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.<br /><br /> 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.<br /><br /> 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?<br /><br />Bryan, this world is coming to an eventful climax, culminationg in the second coming of Jesus in all His glory, along with all the Holy angels of Heaven with Him. There will be no place for the unrepentant 'Christian' who is guilty of the life that you describe, even if he claims to be 'born again'. The verses in Matthew 7 describe Jesus own words to this type of character.<br /><br />Life is not just a perpetual ongoing into eternity, either in the physical or your understood spirit sense. There will be a finite distinction in how Jesus together with His Father will deal with the 'sin problem' that has blighted this earth since it started with lucifer / satan right at the very start of jealousy and mistrust in God's mighty authority and justice. <br /><br />Your effort will not hold a judgment decision at bay. Humility, kindness, meekness, love, compassion and servitude (not just limited to these spiritual gifts), borne out of one's love for our dear Saviour Jesus is what will save. An acceptance of His atoning sacrifice together with allowing the Holy Spirit to lead daily is what a true relationship with Jesus is all about. <br /><br />What you do physically day by day has an absolute zero bearing on this if it out of context with the Spitually led elements described above.<br /><br />If you don't walk with Jesus - you walk with the enemy and will share in his fate. We will never become perfect in Jesus through any effort on our own, in the same way that you will never be able to jump and land on the moon through any power in your legs. Stop trying and just accept God's grace to transform your life - inside out!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77969464147984931382010-08-26T15:12:11.153-05:002010-08-26T15:12:11.153-05:00So, first a comment and then a question for all of...So, first a comment and then a question for all of the born agains in this thread. It seems to me that a fundamental difference between evangelist christians and mormons is that evans see heaven as a destination while mormons see it as a continuation of the journey that we believe life is. In other words, life here or hereafter, is our effort to follow Christ's commandment to become perfect as He is perfect. I don't think Christ was on LSD when he gave us that commandment. I actually think he meant it or else He would not have said it. <br /><br />Now, if I were to die tomorrow I believe that I would continue doing the same things that I'm doing here (minus the activities that involve sustaining my life physically and the lives of my family). Namely, I would be trying to follow Christ's commandment as well as help my fellow beings to follow that commandment.<br /><br />So, there is a CLEAR distinction of what we think heaven is, right? Born-agains, I've described my "heaven" to you, could you please reciprocate and describe your heaven to me? <br /><br />What is it like there? What exactly will you be doing there for eternity? <br /><br />I've known Born-Again Christians who truly had a conversion experience that CHANGED their lives, their ability to love and took their commitment to Christ seriously thereafter. I've also known people who had the same conversion experience but that experience seemed to have little effect on their lives, in other words they do not reflect much of Christ's love, they go back to wife abuse, alcohol abuse, etc. Will these two (frankly, infinite) kinds of Born-again Christians go to reside side by side in the same destination heaven that you believe in? I'm very curious. If they are headed to the same reward how does the truly converted feel about that?Bryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-52263014162307136912009-07-21T14:30:49.135-05:002009-07-21T14:30:49.135-05:00As an LDS person this is one point that I never ca...As an LDS person this is one point that I never can answer, when have you done enough? When are your efforts combined with Jesus' grace enough for you to achieve glory in the hereafter? It seems to be that God will judge us as worthy or not but that we should strive to do all we can, knowing that we cannot do it all, or cannot be perfect, and then have a testimony of the atonement and trust in it's saving grace. Can anyone explain that a little more concisely/scripturally for me? This is a question that is occasionally posed to me, that I have faith enough for myself, but no answers to give the questioners.Shaunahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10565310646552824797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10946054268574847832009-06-08T07:54:59.438-05:002009-06-08T07:54:59.438-05:00Dear Mormanity in reply,
"Ah, so following a...Dear Mormanity in reply,<br /><br /><i>"Ah, so following a doctrine of error not supported by the Bible - or rather, your particular interpretation of the Bible (yes, come on now, you know that's your meaning, right?) - can keep you from heaven? So isn't that why sincerely believing in Christ is good enough to save almost everybody -- except those Mormons, right??" </i><br /><br /><br />I accept the context of the Bible as it is written, in 3D colour and not as literal black words printed on white paper in 2D. You are entirely in your right to state that this is purely my interpretation, but how can you accuse me of being wrong ? What if your interpretation is wrong ? Is there more than one 'truth'?<br /><br />Having the right to believe freely doesn't lead to 'all truth' - that is especially the right and responsibility of the Holy Spirit only as quoted in my comment above. Too many feelings, emotions, interpretations and philosophies crept into Christianity even before the first Century had ended. The same applies today and the same applied to how the Jewish authorities upheld the legalistic approach to their laws. This is why Jesus refers to them as 'hypocrites', 'generation of vipers', being evil and 'workers of iniquity'. Jesus (as God and whilst still in heaven) gave them the laws and whilst he was a man on the earth He upheld His own laws. The problem was how the authorities interpreted the scriptures and ignored why they were given in the first place. The importance was in their own selfish personal demonstration of keeping the law and none of the love for God or humanity that was to be found in it's writing. <br /><br />I can not speak against if you or your denomination follow doctrines of error or not. That is not for me to judge. I accept your 'right' to believe in what you personally prefer. I can only provide the warnings as taken from history and say that we do not agree on various Biblical scriptures and subsequent doctrines. It is only by discussing that we can distinguish and learn from each other.<br /><br />As for the 'concept of the divine potential of man' I can answer very easily.<br /><br />In each of the Biblical uses of the word gods (little 'g'), it is referring to idols, false gods or fallen angelic beings subscribing to deity status.<br /><br />The Bible teaches that men and women in their glorified state willbe the same status as the angels. Fallen mankind is 'made a little lower than the angels' in terms of status or standing before God and certainly we are bound by our sinful nature. We can only break free from these bonds by the blood shed by Jesus in atonement for our sins.<br /><br />We can be called Children of God, but we can never assume a deity status as we will only ever be on an equal level as currently held by the unfallen angels.<br /><br />1 Cor 8:5<br />'Called gods' - Heathen people believe in and worship many imaginary beings that they call gods, but they are really not gods; they do not even exist (see on v. 4). Lacking the inspired revelation of truth that the Christian possesses in the Bible, the heathen knows not that there is only one God, who is the Creator, and in his ignorance he attributes divine qualities to many things both imaginary and real. Heathen peoples deify the sun, moon, stars, fire, water, earth, certain animals and birds, as well as mythological beings such as Apollo, Jupiter, Venus, Bacchus, etc. Paul here states that although there are representations of things in heaven and on earth that the heathen call gods, they have no divine power. But because the Bible believer scorns the idea that these gods are real, he does not therefore hold that there are no supernatural beings who can affect human destiny. Satan and his angels have power to manifest themselves to men in various forms (see 2 Cor. 11:13–15). Through this power the devil is able to delude and enslave millions of people in the worship of false gods.<br />gods … lords. The heathen believed that heaven and earth were peopled with gods and lords of many different ranks and powers. But they were only imaginary deities.<br /><br /><br />One awaiting with patienceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-24480154727330407722009-06-08T06:53:04.939-05:002009-06-08T06:53:04.939-05:00Dear Mormanity and Lamdaddy,
OK - let's simpl...Dear Mormanity and Lamdaddy,<br /><br />OK - let's simplify it further with a few questions. <br /><br />If a person has 'a True Divine Love' in his heart after he has accepted the free gift, will the Holy Spirit 'guide him into all truth' as stated in John 16:13 ? Will the 'all truth' that he gets to understand and comprehend lead him into perpetual sin or maybe the occasional sin of omission or even commission ? Or could it be that the 'all truth' would assist and build on his character so that he keeps the commandments in 'the mindset of Jesus' so that he doesn't even realise that he is keeping them. No legalism, just out of reactive love for His Saviour. Read Romans 6 - the whoe chapter.<br /><br />Yes there is a condition to accepting the free gift that Jesus is offering to each and every person. It is an open and willing heart and a mind that is receptive for the sinner to repent.<br /><br />If I were to offer you the free gift of a car, a house or any other animate object, you would need to be receptive bodily to receive it. Yes you could accept the idea of the gift that I was offering, but then you would never have received or continue to own the gift, it would still only ever be a concept in your mind that I had given it to you - a virtual car or house maybe (in internet terms). Jesus gift of salvation is presented as a concept and an ideal, yet it IS very real and it is He that paid the price for it.<br /><br /><br />One awaiting with patienceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-65448440215675457072009-03-24T13:53:00.000-05:002009-03-24T13:53:00.000-05:00Patient Anon, I also have trouble with the stateme...Patient Anon, I also have trouble with the statement <BR/><BR/>"If a person has followed the precepts of Christ, been baptized and accepts the free gift of salvation, being washed clean from sin by the blood of Jesus, giving 100% of his life over to his Saviour, why should he not be saved ? If again that same person keeps a secret ongoing sin, like porn, or an affair, or hateful behaviour to certain people, or even knowingly following a doctrine of error because it can not be supported from the Bible or the teachings of Jesus, then is there a True Divine love in his heart?"<BR/><BR/>It sounds like there is a condition to the "free gift." If this is the case then there really is no arguement, wouldn't you say? It seems that saying "is there a True Divine love in his heart" is a question that addresses, but takes away from the responsibility to keep the commandments of God.Lamdaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10550528525997628134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63532486336917847902009-03-12T11:45:00.000-05:002009-03-12T11:45:00.000-05:00Lamdaddy - that's the problem, folks who try to co...Lamdaddy - that's the problem, folks who <I>try</I> to counter Jeff's original post (August 4, 2007) only dig themselves into deeper ditches of confusion and are misconstrued. <BR/><BR/>(After reading all of these comments, it is <I>only</I> those comments that are semi-anti- that seem muddled with confusion and misunderstanding)<BR/><BR/>The wonderful thing about the Gospel is that it <I>HAS</I> answers to all of their inquiries and <I>attacks</I> (See Jeff's FAQ page - it's a wonderful source) and scriptural evidence to support our beliefs. <BR/><BR/>The Gospel isn't going anywhere. We know that. It keeps spreading over the Earth, and it will continue to do so, currently to the tune of 250,000 new members per year. <BR/><BR/>There will always be uneducated and stubborn opponents to the light of the Gospel, but we expect that. <BR/><BR/>I am grateful to know that the full Gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored on the Earth today. It blesses my life each and every day and the life of my family. I have seen it change lives. I have seen it make "bad men good and good men better." <BR/><BR/>I am grateful for the widening expanse of LDS throughout 'cyberspace' where we can share experiences and thoughts and our beliefs with each other to "strengthen [our] brethern."<BR/><BR/>I am grateful for sites like this one that shed Gospel light to the world and Gospel principles that will only bless the lives of others, if they would only "exercise [their] faith."<BR/><BR/>And most importantly, in reading these comments from guys like Anonymous/Joe, it strengthens my testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel, as I see right through their invalid and transparent arguments/comments.<BR/><BR/>So thank you "Joe" for strengthening my testimony of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ without even knowing it. <BR/><BR/>As Jesus said to Paul: "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17178403692114327318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-40382828254538333272009-03-11T19:26:00.000-05:002009-03-11T19:26:00.000-05:00Patient anonymous, thanks for this last comment. L...Patient anonymous, thanks for this last comment. Like many people, though, I don't think you've come to grips with the question I raised. You say that if a person truly accepts Jesus, why shouldn't he/she be saved? OK, but then you add the old biblical intelligence test proviso: "If again that same person keeps a secret ongoing sin, like porn, or . . . even knowingly following a doctrine of error because it can not be supported from the Bible or the teachings of Jesus, then is there a True Divine love in his heart?" Ah, so following a doctrine of error not supported by the Bible - or rather, your particular interpretation of the Bible (yes, come on now, you know that's your meaning, right?) - can keep you from heaven? So isn't that why sincerely believing in Christ is good enough to save almost everybody -- except those Mormons, right??<BR/><BR/>As far as believing in doctrines of error not supported by the Bible, you have inferred that the concept of the divine potential of mankind, i.e., the potential to become the kinds of being the Bible calls "gods," is not supported by the Bible and the teachings of Jesus. May I ask what you think Jesus meant when he used the word "gods" in John 10:33-35? Or what the Psalmist mean in Psalm 82:6? Or what many early Christian writers meant when they used that word to describe the end-state of Christians? For details, see <A HREF="http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_theosis.shtml" REL="nofollow">LDSFAQ on Theosis (the Divine Potential of Mankind - a Biblical and Early Christian Doctreiin)</A>Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33228903783952567822009-03-04T06:51:00.000-06:002009-03-04T06:51:00.000-06:00“If someone accepts Christ as his or her savior, b...<I>“If someone accepts Christ as his or her savior, but also believes something you think is incorrect -- such as believing that the resurrected Lord still has the glorious, tangible physical body he allowed people to see and touch in Luke 24, or using the Catholic Bible instead of your Bible, or using wrong terminology such as "gods" in describing the final state of sons and daughters of God who put on the divine nature and become more like Jesus -- then why does that error in understanding send the person to hell?”</I><BR/><BR/><B>Why not use the Biblical terminology of Revelation in the description of the redeemed ? I never see the term gods (emphasis on little ‘g’ being used). I particularly see this in the lie of Satan to Eve in Genesis chapter 3. If this was the lie back in Creation times, then why is it still being argued over today, in the last days of earth’s history ? In the book of Revelation, I read ‘saints throughout and particularly inch 19 verse 1, I read ‘much people’ ! <BR/><BR/>So in answer to the question, if error is being understood, then by direct deduction it is not Truth. Should it be followed or practiced ?</B><BR/><BR/><I>"Do they also have to get correct answers on a quantum physics quiz? Or be able to name every starting pitcher in the World Series? Just how extensive is the Eternal Salvation Quiz that we have to pass with perfect answers in order to be saved? </I><BR/><BR/><B>It is not about knowledge or intelligence. It is all about acceptance and condition of mind and heart. If a person has followed the precepts of Christ, been baptized and accepts the free gift of salvation, being washed clean from sin by the blood of Jesus, giving 100% of his life over to his Saviour, why should he not be saved ? If again that same person keeps a secret ongoing sin, like porn, or an affair, or hateful behaviour to certain people, or even knowingly following a doctrine of error because it can not be supported from the Bible or the teachings of Jesus, then is there a True Divine love in his heart? Is he ruling his own mind or is the mind of Christ described in Philippians 2:5 at work here ? It really is down to a full surrender – that is only when Jesus can lead an individual to know the Truth as it is in Him ! </B><BR/><BR/><I>"And Anon, if the John of my example never actually thought that he's going to one day be classified among "gods", would he still be OK? " </I><BR/><BR/><B>It is really in the decision making process that John actually goes through. Jeff alluded to many ‘feelings and emotions’ and of course John is only a fictional character. God is Righteous and Holy, Jesus is Righteous and Holy, the Holy Spirit is Righteous and Holy. Together they are also omnipotent and omniscient, judging each of us with all seen, unseen, spoken and unspoken acts and words. This is what eventually will save us. Those without knowledge can never be accused of receiving and rejecting the light. But how much more powerful the condemnation for those who do receive the light, who claim to study their Bible and yet reject the messages from God because of their preferred or chosen understanding. </B><BR/><BR/>Praise and Honour be to God that He will act righteously with each and every one of us who will be weighed in judgment and understand the verdict and outcome of our own life decisions and choices. We are victims only to ourselves and potentially will have ourselves to blame for listening to the voice of the evil one’s temptations, no-one else. <BR/><BR/><BR/>From one awaiting with patience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90740371271748620222009-02-25T15:27:00.000-06:002009-02-25T15:27:00.000-06:00Did anybody really ever answer Jeff's question ade...Did anybody really ever answer Jeff's question adequately? He posed a really good question. Answer it! Answer the August 4th questions if you can.Lamdaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10550528525997628134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73445493443448944322009-02-06T21:10:00.000-06:002009-02-06T21:10:00.000-06:00Romans 10:9,10 NKJ that if you confess with your m...Romans 10:9,10 NKJ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead,you will be saved.v. 10For with the heart one belives to rightousness, and with mouth confession is made to salvation.v 11 says- Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.v12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek,for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.v.13 For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. v14.How then - <BR/>The word of God is clear,to be saved and how to get saved and you must go to church and renew your mind in the word because the word of God IS THE BREATHE of life and our direction in this world.<BR/>People tend to make things in life hard and it's not. People want to complicate it and all you need is the bible and God and your family and or friends .You don't need all this other stuff. You get into works and that is not what God wants us to do 90% of the time .If people would pray and listen to hear HIS voice and that's all.I am of no paticular faith. Just not a Mormon.I believe when Joseph Smith prayed and the angle of light came on him he was attacked by a demon-out of his own mouth darkness surrounded him,he believed he would soon be destroyed? Sorry but that is not God- I leave you with this last word and I pray for you as a church and for the souls that knock on my door that Jesus the true and loving Jesus help change their hearts and minds for His next and very soon coming,Could this Mormon religion (Joesph Smith) be deceived ? 2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles,deitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Chirst.v.14 And No wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.<BR/>HOPING YOU PRAY INSTEAD OF ........Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66337307949163153452009-01-09T13:18:00.000-06:002009-01-09T13:18:00.000-06:00Still getting hits on this blog post! Must be a ho...Still getting hits on this blog post! Must be a hot topic, if I landed here too. ;)<BR/><BR/>NM said: <BR/><BR/><I>Interestingly, have you read Darwin's Black Box by Behe? A good read...I don't fully buy everything he says, but it's good. =)</I><BR/><BR/>I've got to recommend <A HREF="http://powells.com/biblio/2-9780061233500-3" REL="nofollow">Finding Darwin's God by Ken Miller</A> in return. Miller is a working biologist and also a Christian, and he competently breaks Behe's box.<BR/><BR/>(And I note the irony of a 6-day creationist pushing Behe's book, which relies on evolution on a billions-of-years old Earth. Oh well.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76780906857747376512008-12-08T13:03:00.000-06:002008-12-08T13:03:00.000-06:00The word Christian is used without any real idea o...The word Christian is used without any real idea of what a real Christian is. For example, Paul spoke of those he visited as being Saints, The Romans called them Christians in a form of derision,and the Saints adopted the name. When the Gospel was restored to the earth, the members os the Church were officially known as Saints. So if you wanted to call yourself a Christian, you would also have to be a Saint,or call yourself other than Christian. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are the ONLY TRUE CHRISTIANS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39945499558043079562008-11-21T06:45:00.000-06:002008-11-21T06:45:00.000-06:00My Granny says the law (of MOses) is the schoolmas...My Granny says the law (of MOses) is the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. AiLl our righteousness is as filthy rags & there is none righteous, no not one...KimLairsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01930870050370609826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18885749567399149892008-09-30T00:57:00.000-05:002008-09-30T00:57:00.000-05:00This story is similiar to my story. With two mino...This story is similiar to my story. With two minor exceptions. The girl was asked by the boy to learn about your scriptures and it has been 7 years, not 2. <BR/><BR/>That, and the boy doesn't know she has been looking for him to tell him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33898713718137990352008-09-01T09:51:00.000-05:002008-09-01T09:51:00.000-05:00Jeff from Aug. 27: Thanks for the note - very glad...Jeff from Aug. 27: Thanks for the note - very glad you've taken up the challenge to read and ponder. It's the beginning of a wonderful journey, in my opinion. Regarding your difficulty at point 10, the anti-Mormon interpretation of the Deut. statement on prophecy is extreme. In fact, their standards would reject a number of biblical prophets in addition to Joseph Smith. See <A HREF="http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophets.shtml#wrong" REL="nofollow">jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophets.shtml#wrong</A>.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41430973107239060632008-08-27T18:59:00.000-05:002008-08-27T18:59:00.000-05:00I'm stuck in 10. I must tell you that I began rea...I'm stuck in 10. I must tell you that I began reading the BOM to prove to a LDS friend that it was false. There are issues that I had with is taught to me by many years in an evangelical church. What I didn't know or understand was that there were actual ANSWERS to those points that made more sense than the points I was trying to make. Chief among them that "prophets are never wrong in their prophecies". I still struggle with that one and would appreciate any info or guidance on where to go to see if that is true. Every google search produces gobs of info on Deut and that we should test what they say not go by our feelings. Regardless, I feel God will answer my heartfelt questions. I just need to be patient. I have asked for a confirmation and have not recieved it yet. I feel I am finally ready to act on it when/if it comes.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12273565587056891272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-11563759283817751192007-09-04T16:50:00.000-05:002007-09-04T16:50:00.000-05:00Dear D360,Here are a few questions and answers tha...Dear D360,<BR/><BR/>Here are a few questions and answers that I trust will assist you further in understanding life, death, spirits and souls from my own personal belief (based on Bible text) :<BR/><BR/> How did we get here in the first place?<BR/><BR/>"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7.<BR/><BR/>Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning. <BR/><BR/> What Happens When a Person Dies?<BR/><BR/>"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (Hebrew - Ruah / Ruach) shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7. <BR/><BR/>Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies--whether righteous or wicked--returns to God at death.<BR/><BR/> What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death? <BR/><BR/>"The body without the spirit ["breath," ] is dead." James 2:26. "The spirit of God ["the breath which God gave him,"] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3. <BR/><BR/>Answer:The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more. <BR/><BR/> What is a Soul?<BR/><BR/>"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7. <BR/><BR/>Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls. <BR/><BR/> Do Souls Die?<BR/><BR/>"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3. <BR/><BR/>Answer: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.<BR/><BR/> Do good people go to heaven when they die? <BR/><BR/>"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29. "David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13. <BR/><BR/>Answer: No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.<BR/> <BR/> How much does one know or comprehend after death?<BR/><BR/>"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalm 115:17. <BR/><BR/>Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!<BR/><BR/> But can't the dead communicate with the living, and aren't they aware of what the living are doing?<BR/><BR/>"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6. <BR/><BR/>Answer: No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalm 146:4).<BR/> <BR/>Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead "sleep" in John 11:11-14. How long will they sleep?<BR/><BR/>"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more." Job 14:12. "The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away."<BR/>2 Peter 3:10. <BR/><BR/>Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death, humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.<BR/> <BR/>What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ? <BR/><BR/>"Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. "We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. <BR/><BR/>Answer: They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death or put somewhere in limbo.<BR/><BR/>I really appreciate this comment conversation. It's certainly assisting me more in a practical, more real understanding of LDS faith. I hope that this helps you,<BR/><BR/>Teranno4x4Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37887106858953198262007-09-04T00:53:00.000-05:002007-09-04T00:53:00.000-05:00Hi Teranno, I know we disagree on points of docter...Hi Teranno, <BR/><BR/>I know we disagree on points of docterine but I really appreciate the tone with which we have been able to communicate.<BR/><BR/>specifically with regards to the Second Coming, I understand it this way: <BR/><BR/>After Christ was crucified and rose again on the 3rd day he made further appearances to his disciples to instruct and show of his resurrection. one might suggest well he had not yet really left the Earth but when he first appeared to Mary outside of the tomb he instructed her not to touch him for he had not yet ascended to The Father, yet later he appeared to the disciples and allowed them to "handle me and see" (doubting Thomas). <BR/><BR/>So I believe that between the appearance to Mary and then later to the deciples He must have ascended to heavan. It is also my understanding that he made his appearance to the ancient peoples of the Americas during this time frame. <BR/><BR/>so when he made both appearances to his desciples and the Americas this was not His Second Coming when He will come in all his Glory to reign over the Earth, as we also believe that His Second Coming is yet to be and will usher in the Millenial reign of peace. <BR/><BR/>and I have no issue with protestation or disagreement as truth should be able to withstand scrutinty - its just the mean spirited stuff that is hard to deal with and thus far in my conversations with you I have not sensed any spitefulness and I hope I have not given any sense of 'mean spiritedness' either. <BR/><BR/>a docternal question I have for you is I have noticed that you made reference to the spirit that "you" (I took that to mean me/LDS theology) believe to be inside us... is it not SDA docterine that we (humans) have a soul or spirit? (curiosity question)<BR/><BR/>Thanks, <BR/><BR/>D360D360https://www.blogger.com/profile/13784611464020900199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-8721567471683497532007-09-03T06:28:00.000-05:002007-09-03T06:28:00.000-05:00Dear d360,Many thnaks for taking the effort to do ...Dear d360,<BR/><BR/>Many thnaks for taking the effort to do what is difficult, carefully and thoughtfully offering reason and explanation of various situations. Partly I agree with you from a humanistic perspective, but not from a Biblical or Spiritual perspective (and I don't mean the spirit that you believe to be inside each and every one). I mean the Holy Spirit that can lead our very lives if we invite Him to. We do not have to be under the dominion of sin. The Bible says that 'sin shall not have dominion over you' and 'we can have the mind of Christ'. This very aspect can take us out of our sinful state already being justified from sin, we can then be sanctified and have the possibility (only) to remain in His hands.<BR/><BR/>This way we can understand how to deal with times of difficulty when oppressed. If not - are individuals really living in Jesus Christ fully ?<BR/><BR/>In terms of the actual oppression - I have not personally experienced anything like that so I can only imagine - but what would stimulate an individual to do something this aggressively insulting ? <BR/><BR/>In consideration, I can only offer you the question - was the Bible translated / scribed with blurred lines ? I don't believe so. I believe that each word was inspired and can lead one to God and as such is the fairest record of God's word for all humankind. If you have any doubt yourself, please learn Hebrew and Greek, so that you can take the original text into closer consideration. (To answer your point on slavery - yes you can arrive at pro and against arguments with Biblical evidence. What about when you measure the same argument with the Character of God also Biblically revealed. What about when measured with the ministry of Jesus, our own saviour ? That doesn't do so well from the pro side does it? Anyone can make a distorted or out of context view of any writing - this website also proves this point clearly !)<BR/><BR/>To measure the Bible with the newer 'revelation' of the BOM, I understand this to be a mistake if you want the Bible to speak to you out loud. If you take one passage and it's meaning, one can arrive at a totally different understanding if analysed by text from the BOM. The Bible MUST stand on it's own merit, whether you consider it to be flawed or not.<BR/><BR/>Here is one important context that I can glean so far. Jesus lived on Earth approx 2000 years ago and this was His First Coming. The BOM teaches that He appeared to the people of America, so this would have to be His Second Coming. Most Christians, are expecting Jesus to return to take His faithful home to heaven, so from the BOM perspective this would be the Third Coming. But the Bible only describes one return, which is considered to be the Second Coming in our future time. Is this a Biblical error, oversight or something of a need for a new 'revelation'. Or could it be a BOM error, or perhaps even some kind of deception ? <BR/><BR/>Can you see where I am coming from in just a single doctrinal understanding?<BR/><BR/>Without wanting to go anywhere down the same road as the 'protesters' that you describe, please understand that for some of 'us' Biblical Christians, we are trying to humbly reason with you in an attempt to find out the motives for your reasonings. Going on the defensive is not the best way to make friends or influence anyone of your sincerity (and that is meant collectively not personally).<BR/><BR/>Respectfully,<BR/><BR/>Teranno4x4Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46113520651522859922007-09-01T12:27:00.000-05:002007-09-01T12:27:00.000-05:00hi Teranno,regarding Martin thats exactly the poin...hi Teranno,<BR/><BR/>regarding Martin thats exactly the point I was tryng to make - he was the "kingdom of the cults" (50's and 60's) guy who condemned us both (SDA/LDS) for a long time. In my failed attempt at sarcasm I was trying to say that same thing- who is he to judge who is and isn't acceptable as a Christian.<BR/><BR/>regarding your last question, that a tough one cause I think both sides are are coming at it with a differnt understanding of what the same verse says and then accuses the other of not reading it correctly... I mean many of the reformationist/early Protestants were able to use the Bible to justify slavery.... (how's that for a diplomatic non-answer!!!)<BR/><BR/>the only thing that I can offer from the LDS perspective is that we regularly have people who camp out in front of our temples and drag copies of the Book of Mormon on the ground tied to their feet and condemn us to hell and we regularly face folks who profess to be Chrisitian on the outside but are decidedly the most venomous tongued people you'll ever meet. <BR/><BR/>I think then some LDS immediately put the shields up and go into defense when we are questioned on our beliefs because the thoughts of 'here we go again' start to creep in and we are just waiting for the attacks to come. <BR/><BR/>having said that, those of us who do that are not justified in our reaction as we are explicitly instructed by the Savior as well as the teachings of the LDS church to pray for and love those who curse you - but we are human and subject to our fallibilities while in mortality. <BR/><BR/>I only offer the above as reason for why some of us react the way we do and not as justification. <BR/><BR/>the other thing that is difficult is that we do accept that further revelation from God is possible and has happened. so when ground rules are placed on us to answer questions from the Bible alone - it often puts us in somewhat of a quandry because while we do accept the Bible as the word of God, we also believe that further revelation has cleared up some 'blurred lines' that have been introduced through scribal/translator errors that have occurred over the centuries. <BR/><BR/>so yes we can answer questions from the Bible, but it is in some cases through the lense of what we believe to be modern revelation.<BR/><BR/>(i'm not sure if you have seen them or not but our articles of faith are a good summary of our fundamental beliefs).<BR/><BR/>I know you disagree with our belief in modern revelation and stuff like that but hopefully that at least puts a perspective on the situation. <BR/><BR/>and again I can only speak for myself but it is how I understand the world around meD360https://www.blogger.com/profile/13784611464020900199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-43741756710575384422007-08-29T10:04:00.000-05:002007-08-29T10:04:00.000-05:00Dear D360,Many thanks for your supporting sentimen...Dear D360,<BR/><BR/>Many thanks for your supporting sentiments. I too like to think that we share many common Christian values, although some have not been so charitable to varying comments that I have made on this site. I look forward to corresponding more with you on some of these topics.<BR/><BR/>As a Bible believing Christian, I can vouch that whilst SDA's have what are termed core fundamental commonly accepted beliefs, they are NOT a creed or something to which we can be held to ransom over in doctrine. We are Bible based only and encouraged to prayerfully study the scriptures in order to ask God to come and dwell close by us and shed a brighter light on His word so we can obtain a deeper understanding and connection with Him.<BR/><BR/>If we learn new Biblical insights or revelations into a particular passage or topic, we are not afraid to review our individual or collective standing. I have no authority to speak on behalf of the church as a denomination, but I will always stand up for God and constantly pray that I will never let Him down. <BR/><BR/>Of course I am pleased that Walter Martin made his review of our church a positive one, although why do we need this kind of approval ? I would still worship God with or without his say so. I often wonder (with his more evangelical stance) how he would conduct the same review if taken now in 2007 ? <BR/><BR/>Please do understand that I will never offer a 'bashing comment' but that I sometimes feel the need to point to the Bible and then ask an objective question. Often my questions on this site remain unanswered, with only spiked comments sent in reply. This is the part that I see as a shame as it only exposes that my critics are not yet in tune with the 'mind of Christ' as we are instructed to be as Christians. In trying to understand more about your faith from my own stand-point I face only negative criticism and claims that I distort a Biblical interpretation.<BR/><BR/>You have read my comments - can it really be that I am guilty of this ?<BR/><BR/>Thanks again,<BR/><BR/>Teranno4x4 <BR/><BR/>PS. Yes you have the correct official SDA website. I will check out the links that you provided - I have already visited the official LDS site quite a few times for reference.Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.com