tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post891001427567376195..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Elder Jeffrey R. Holland Speaks Out on the Book of Mormon and the Failed Attempts of Critics to Explain It AwayJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-87137555616195482042020-12-08T23:35:32.710-06:002020-12-08T23:35:32.710-06:00Dear Friend and Brother, You are appreciated for y...Dear Friend and Brother, You are appreciated for your honest desire for accurate and concise question. I for one believe the question to be valid. Not for the historical accuracy alone, but more appropriately for its intrinsic value of truth. Like we may concern ourselves with the accuracy of the Bible as we know it today. We only discover its truthfulness (The Bible) is by reading, se a rching, ans ultimately ask the Lord for prompting your spirit by the Holy Spirit, testifying to you personally of the divinity of its validity, not just because someone told you to read it and pray about the deeper meanings contained therein. There are more reasons for experiencing the divine touch and testimony of it truthfulness. You would sincerely desire of the Bible's testimony of who you are in relation to God. Who He is and wants with respect to you personally. He know you and would accept your acknowledging His desire as only a father could in sharing all He has, including scripture. It certainly would be great if we today could have the writings of all the Apostles who were the Savior's may have left for future generations in order to bring us closer to Christ. Why not have additional written testimonies from all the Prophets, Apostles a new othe Holy men and women? The simple answer is that most probably their writing may or may not be available to us sometime. Time will tell if and when other scripture exist and we are blessed in receiving them. Likewise, the writings of the Book of Mormon is not all complete and available at this time. More may be revealed. If for instance we only had the first 5 Books of the New Testament, would we be acceptable when other Books of Prophets and/or Apostles come to light and added to the New Testament? My sincere answer is "Yes" indeed. As many other Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well many non-members throughout the world would attest honestly and sincerely desire 'if it is true. The only absolute knowledge and personal attestation would the rely on one's personal supplication to the only One would tell you in your heath and mind, is to invite God's reveal to you personally of the truth of the Book of Mormon. May you follow your search and be willing to 'listen' and accept it as another Testament of Jesus Christ. I did that and will certainly witness to you of the importance of His revealed Word. All of what is available at this time. Again, you are blessed with an inquiring mind. Continue in your personal need to know. Please take good care of yourself and your loved one. Blessings, Ed van Gass.Edvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13577965852272276760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66569435859628208382020-06-16T04:52:42.310-05:002020-06-16T04:52:42.310-05:00"No wicked man could write such a book as thi..."No wicked man could write such a book as this, and no good man would write it--unless it were true and he were commanded of God to do so."<br /><br />There are none good but God. The ego of men, to separate into groups, and then artificially limit each group. Is that religion?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-55897573055354244082009-12-10T23:26:11.478-06:002009-12-10T23:26:11.478-06:00After reading the comments left here, I need to re...After reading the comments left here, I need to really congradulate you all for having a debate that was civilized. That's almost unheard of with regards to religion.<br /><br />All I'm going to add is a response to Catholic Girl. <br /><br />Faith, as I have always been taught, means "the belief in something that cannot be seen."<br /><br />Having belief in God is an example of faith, one cannot scientifically prove His existence nor His nonexistence.<br /><br />The same thing lies within an LDS's testimony in the regards of the Book of Mormon. If you're looking to disprove the BoM, you're doing it wrong. You are not exercising faith, which is what really all of us being Christian is about. I'm not saying "if you aren't exercising faith in the BoM, you're doing it wrong" but I'm saying, if you haven't read the BoM or haven't prayed about it with real intent, your comments (or the comments of ANY religious critic of the BoM)are invalid. <br /><br />BlakeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-2406666043941728452009-11-07T22:31:55.335-06:002009-11-07T22:31:55.335-06:00Catholic Defender (continued) -
All this by...Catholic Defender (continued) - <br /><br /> All this by way of saying how much I appreciate you and your seeking God! Keep on the path and He will surely come close to you and your knowledge will grow and grow – same as for me and for any man who will seek God. No man can prove Him or disprove Him – it is by faith and our seeking that we come to know more surely than any scientist what is truth and what is not. May our path take us, devoted and humble, to Him, the Master, and to His Father! God bless us both in our quest.<br /><br />Respectfully yoursGeorge Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-71913832951395863802009-11-07T22:29:41.382-06:002009-11-07T22:29:41.382-06:00Dear Catholic Defender,
You said “Understand...Dear Catholic Defender,<br /><br /> You said “Understand that the easiest path for a person like myself married to a member of your church, would be to simply say I believe, and convert. I do not take that easy path, because I do not believe your faith is the true faith and I will not lie to my wife or God just because it would make life easier.”<br /><br /> Above all, the ethical man MUST follow the dictates of his conscience. Period. While I see my belief in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as the greatest of the many gifts God has blessed me with, it is clear that all good men and women are not in this life members of this Church. When I consider some of the greatest people and recognize they are not members of any given Church, it reminds me not to judge a person by his Church! Take Mother Theresa for example. If 1/10 of what I have heard about her awesome life is correct, she was a woman of tremendous spiritual power and one of the greatest forces for good anywhere, anytime. In the end I believe that on Judgement Day God will judge us on who we were and what we did with what we had – what He gave us - in this life rather than what Church we were members of or what we professed to believe. The Book of Mormon says “By faith we are saved after all we can do”. This means that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints – or any other Christian or non-Christian church (Gandhi, for example) are not any better than anyone else, unless they/we live according to what God gives us and will judge us by. There seems to be no recipe to all this, however, each circumstance seems to differ, depending on our God-given mission in life, our personality maybe, our upbringing – God meets us on our own ground, whatever it is.<br /><br /> By the same token, God seems to generally give us what we want, and what He wants. When He sends us a gift of Truth, He and we rejoice when that gift is accepted. And morn if not. As we follow life's path, the many branches can take us almost anywhere. The one way to God is found by passing life's tests, which bring spiritual gifts like humility and love and faith, hope and charity. I'm sure neither you nor I believe in predestination! It is bit by bit, here a little and there a little that we grow close to God, governed by our day to day and even moment to moment choices on how we will live. As we seek Him diligently and faithfully follow Him, His reward includes growth in our knowledge of Him – not intellectual as the world defines the word, but in sure knowledge of Him and the way things really are! Take the man who determines to grow close to God, to please Him, to live life His way, in spite of personal inconveniences, even at the risk of reputation, maybe even at the risk of life itself. Job was such a man, (Job 1:1), and the scriptures are full of many such wonderful examples. No such man will be rejected by God! The Book of Mormon makes this very clear: “except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved.” Irrespective of what Church we belong to, what ordinances we have received, if we do not live as true followers of the Master, it all does us no good, Temple Ordinances, Baptism, or whatever standing we may have had in our Church, Community, Profession, or anything else. And as we grow in charity and closeness to God, His light and guidance is sufficient for us to continue on the path that leads to Him, even if we can only see 1 step ahead. However the moment we turn away from His guidance and lift ourselves up in Pride, we lose our way. The process is exceedingly delicate and requires exceeding care and dedication on our part. Few if any (Christ excepted) make it the first try – but then there is repentance, on account of the atonement of Christ, which God has commanded us to do and if we do He forgives us and we can continue of our life's path toward Him. He is so nice to us!<br /><br />(continued next post)George Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36360435292834068712009-11-07T21:22:35.621-06:002009-11-07T21:22:35.621-06:00Catholic Girl,
Apology accepted, with thanks for...Catholic Girl, <br /><br />Apology accepted, with thanks for your sensitivity, and appreciation for the healthy dialog in this most worthy of topics - The Father and The Son and The Holy Ghost and their doings among the children of men!<br /><br />So, a few thoughts follow -<br /><br />1)"I am interested in knowing what is thought of St. Peter in the LDS church."<br /><br />-Peter was the head apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ, appointed and set apart by the Lord himself. After Jesus died, Peter James and John became the head of the twelve apostles, and head of the Church, standing in place of Christ since He was no longer on the earth. After the last apostle was killed except the one who was allowed to tarry until Jesus comes again - John – (in John 20:21-23, Jesus said to Peter “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me...Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die, yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?”), John was taken away from the Church. The now immortal John is still living on earth, doing as the Lord wills, but not leading the Church...because the great apostasy foretold in the Bible began after Jesus and the Apostles were killed and John was taken away. While good men and women did their best during the dark ages, it wasn't until the Renaissance had flowered and a land founded on the heaven-inspired principles of liberty and religious tolerance was prepared by the Lord that the Priesthood and Church of Jesus Christ were restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. God the Father and Jesus Christ his beloved son appeared to Joseph in answer to his prayer that day in the spring of 1820, and the rest followed. As the Church was formed, twelve Apostles were once again called of God, and now continue today. (see http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html for Joseph's own words describing this, the greatest event in human history since Christ). <br /><br />2. "...I did find odd in the LDS traditions was the emphasis on family"<br /><br />"The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ."<br /><br />For a fascinating reading and a brief summary of the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints' Proclaimation on the Family, see <br /><br />http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=5fd30f9856c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD<br /><br />Trust me, the Lord comes first, and He has charged all of us to rear our children in righteousness.<br /><br />Enough for this time. Sure appreciate your forthrightness and respect your obvious integrity.George J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89813634970280915902009-11-02T08:18:25.970-06:002009-11-02T08:18:25.970-06:00Dear Twitterpated,
I think you assume too much w...Dear Twitterpated, <br /><br />I think you assume too much when you say "You have to actually read the Book of Mormon before you can know it's the word of God. Most people won't do that. But they're more than willing to rip it apart." You assume that Catholic Girl and I have not read it. Like her, I have read the BOM, with an open mind looking for truth, and praying about it. Such a reading of the BOM has left an impression upon me that the BOM is not true, and is a fabrication. <br /><br />I understand that you will disagree with me, and may even believe that my reading of the BOM was insincere. I assure you that my reading of it was sincere, with a desire to know, so that I could share the same understanding of God that my wife has. Understand that the easiest path for a person like myself married to a member of your church, would be to simply say I believe, and convert. I do not take that easy path, because I do not believe your faith is the true faith and I will not lie to my wife or God just because it would make life easier. The point is don't just assume that your critic are out to get you by any means necessary. Don't assume that non-LDS are not familiar with the voice of God, we are, even if we don't always listen well, we do know him when he speaks. Some of us really are searching for truth, we are just getting a different truth. <br /><br />George, its interesting that you choose Francis of Assisi in your example. See Francis is one of those Saints that gives me reason to disbelieve in the LDS faith. Francis was told to restore God's church. He mistook the message to mean he was to rebuild an old broken down church building. What God was telling him was not a literal rebuilding, but was a message to return to a more Christ like path. Catholic teachings were change, based upon revelations given to Francis, and the church was improved because of those revelations. This is an example of God continuing to give revelations to his peoples...not just prophets as your faith would suggest, but to us all. He's with all of us, at all times. That's what I believe. <br /><br />A last thought, then I'll stop. Christ promised us all the Holy Spirit. Christ promised that his spirit would be with us always. What I find strikingly contradictory in the LDS faith, is that the Holy Spirit is only with you, so long as you are on a righteous path. That's contradictory to me, because in my experience, and in my own church's teachings, the Holy Spirit presence is strongest when we are faltering in our faith and when we are straying from the path, not when we are most rigtheous. God is working on the most, when we need him the most...at the times we are sinning. That's happening because its at those times we really need to feel his loving hand. Something to ponder.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90629936596715487802009-11-02T08:18:02.602-06:002009-11-02T08:18:02.602-06:00Hi All,
Catholic Girl, welcome, its good to see a...Hi All,<br /><br />Catholic Girl, welcome, its good to see another defender out there. I might suggest that you look at the Duoay Rheims Bible, another acceptable Catholic Translation. The one you're using is good, but the DR translation has so much more of the substance of what's been said. Like you, I don't agree that the KJV is the most reliable source. <br /><br />Darion, I'm the one who made reference to steel. I don't believe that I said that knowledge of working steel was not available at the time of Lehi. What I believe I said was that there's no evidence that the peoples who were here in the Americas had knowledge of working steel. The Japanese clearly knew how to work steel long before anyone else. The Romans knew the process. Its likely that in the timeframe you'r talking about, that knowledge of working steel was available in the Judeo-Christian world. But, that said, there is no indication that Lehi knew the process, and there is clearly no evidence that the knowledge of working steel got here to the Americans during the timeframe you're talking about. That knowledge comes over when the europeans start coming. Its a clear contradiction of the words in the BOM. That does cause concern, and tends to cause credibility problems. Does it mean I'm right, I believe that I am, but I will recognize the possibility that I don't know everything, and could be wrong.catholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23117416636781547882009-11-02T06:57:28.968-06:002009-11-02T06:57:28.968-06:00George J-
I apologize, I did not mean "laugh...George J-<br /><br />I apologize, I did not mean "laughable" in an offensive manner, the KJV mention that always inevitably comes in up in these sort of discussions just always makes me laugh, because it is such a difference, yet so ill-known! I thoroughly apologize for the use of "lunacy". <br /><br />I am interested in knowing what is thought of St. Peter in the LDS church. To us, he is the man, "the rock" who continued Our Lord's teachings and solidified the Magisterium of the Catholic Churth, that is, it's authority to pass along Scripture- the writings of God given breath by the Holy Spirit. We also have Tradition, which is the Word of God passed on through the Holy Spirit through the apostles. Through these three, Tradition, Scripture, and Magisterium, the Catholic church has kept its authority on the covenant with the Lord. This is just how I believe the succession has gone. The Catholic Church is apostolic, we were founded by the apostles. History itself points to this, and we believe we have carried the Tradition with the help of the Lord. <br /><br />Other differences that make me so strong in my faith are things such as The Trinity, which to me rings true of Divinity. I know of the Godhead, my best friend is currently an LDS missionary, but my God was never a man of flesh and bone. My God is, was, and forever shall be, world without end. He is Three Men in One because that is how he chooses to reveal himself to men whose language can never encapsulate the richness and divinity of his being. I've never liked the claim of the LDS church that they alone know the nature of God. Only God knows the nature of God, and even we, his chosen people on Earth, only know what he shares with us at his kind discretion. <br /><br />Another thing I have always found comforting in my faith, that I did find odd in the LDS traditions was the emphasis on family. My faith is a personal matter. For Catholics, we are taught that each and everyone of us is a Church unique to ourselves and our Lord and we are to cherish that personal relationship more than any other relationship in this world. I know that each LDS is encouraged to develop a "testimony" and have personal faith, but the view of God having a "familiar unit" and the imagery of that being the most ideal way to lead one's life instead of it being to be completely and whole-heartedly interestd in developing a relationship with the Lord is a bit odd. Once again, I'm sure it is LDS doctrine that God comes first, and I would never dream of saying otherwise. I'm merely speaking of what is emphasized, which is completely different. Our spiritual leaders our men and women who have led lives completely devoted to only the Lord, which is so comforting to me that it's hard to explain. Yet in LDS, they would be frowned upon for not building a family. This, to me, is just a matter of wrong thinking. I love that our Priests are so studied in theology and prayer. While I will most likely enter into the sacrament of marriage, I always know there are those dedicating their lives to the preservation of Scripture and that ALONE so I may serve the Church in other capacities. Now, you have my beliefs, feel free to counter. But this is just why I feel so strongly about my faith and specifically why I could never leave for LDS or any other faith for that matter, not a direct attack on LDS doctrine. It's really not a matter of not feeling the Spirit. (And I know that that didnt come from you, that argument just makes me so mad!)Catholic Girlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73965995602574882562009-10-31T23:28:27.402-05:002009-10-31T23:28:27.402-05:00To Catholic Girl (continued):
3. "As far as &...To Catholic Girl (continued):<br />3. "As far as "talking with God", do LDS actually believe that all we do is say the Our Father and have done with it? I believe it was St. Francis of Assisi who spoke on praying all day, every day in a common man's language. "<br /><br />In this, Catholic Girl, we are in complete agreement, and I am edified and respectful in this newfound knowledge that you believe it is God's teaching that we are to pray always. This is what the scriptures teach. For one example, the Lord says: "But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul." -2nd Nephi 32:9; and see also Alma 34:17-27, and then in v. 29 the Lord adds: "Therefore, if ye do not remember to be charitable, ye are as dross, which the refiners do cast out..." <br /><br />4. "...having explained my Church's stance on future prophets, you see why I cannot accept the BoM in any way."<br /><br />If I understand correctly, the thought is that any profit or revelation or writing after Christ is false, because after He came and died for us that was the end of revelation and the heavens were sealed. Here's my best understanding of what happened - after Christ was crucified and his apostles dead, except John the beloved who was told he could tarry on earth until the Lord would come again, and who was taken away as the last surviving apostle because of the wickedness of the world at the time, the great apostasy spoken of in the scriptures began. For nearly 2000 years it persisted, and good men and women did what they could to preserve Christianity. However grievous wolves entered in as well, and spiritual darkness overcame the earth. It was not until God the Father and his wonderful Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and announced the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ complete with authority from God (always on condition of righteousness only) that the light of the Lord began again to illuminate the earth. We are still at the beginning stages, and there is still much confusion and concern about this. But as the Master himself said "By their fruits shall ye know them." And what are the fruits of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (speaking of the Church as a whole and not of some individual errant members)? Are they Charity? Humility? Faith? Hope? Belief in Christ? I hope so - and if not this church shall be help accountable by God for gross negligence of His holy restoration.<br /><br />Respectfully yours,George J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-62516843974497768732009-10-31T23:26:21.492-05:002009-10-31T23:26:21.492-05:00Dear Catholic Girl,
Thanks for your reply. ...Dear Catholic Girl,<br /><br /> Thanks for your reply. I see you are serious about your faith, and as you hope I will respect your faith, so I hope you will respect mine. Can we agree as we discuss the sacred in a Christian context to not use words like "lunacy" and "laughable" in our dialog? <br /><br /> Here are some reflections on your thoughts:<br /><br />1) "The differences that will prove the BoM true or false don't lie in anyone's bosom, or "knowing it's true", they lie in science."<br /><br />Science is the knowledge of man. Science cannot prove or disprove God. One of the great problems of our times is that people rely on Science and forget God and His commandments. The way to know God is spiritual and spiritual only. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Prophets speak, and that we may know what is of God. The "burning in the bosom" is indeed one way the Holy Ghost can manifest truth to us, but certainly not the only way. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that we can "know" the truth.<br /><br />2) "To state anything that would change the entired nature of the covenant, or the entire aspect of religion, like the BoM does, is heresey and offensive to the Lord"<br /><br />Here is what the Lord, God says: "And because I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever." -2 Nephi 29:9 (The Lord speaks on this throughout the whole chapter.)<br /><br />Respectfully yours,George J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80441528714611599252009-10-31T16:18:04.219-05:002009-10-31T16:18:04.219-05:00George J-
Actually, the idea of KJV being an acce...George J-<br /><br />Actually, the idea of KJV being an acceptable source is a bit laughable to me. It's not an acceptable edition in my faith, it leaves out books and the translation is not great. I use NRSV, approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops. <br /><br />The quote above is from the Cathechism, the D&C of the Catholic faith. Perhaps I should clarify-<br /><br />By having his Son sacrifice his life for us, the Father left his last Holy "Word" on his covenant with man. This word cannot and shall not be usurped by a prophet. To state anything that would change the entired nature of the covenant, or the entire aspect of religion, like the BoM does, is heresey and offensive to the Lord. However, just because the whole prophecy and covenant have been revealed, does not mean that it has been fully explained. The Lord does continue to speak with his "Bride on Earth" aka the Catholic Church through personal revelations that are evaluated for merit and spiritual truth. These revelations include such traditions as the Rosary, so obviously we are still listening to God. These revelations make the scriptures relevant and alive in modern times, but do NOT change the foundation of the Church. This is very important. As far as "talking with God", do LDS actually believe that all we do is say the Our Father and have done with it? I believe it was St. Francis of Assisi who spoke on praying all day, every day in a common man's language. Offer every thought up to the Lord. While I cannot claim such a holy ritual, I certainly talk with my Lord outside of preconcieved prayers. I have my answer. You have yours. Let's just say I won't tell you you're wrong if you don't say I am. It's just rude. The differences that will prove the BoM true or false don't lie in anyone's bosom, or "knowing it's true", they lie in science. Which is what we were talking about in the first place. But, having explained my Church's stance on future prophets, you see why I cannot accept the BoM in any way.CatholicGirlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18790746668426923312009-10-31T14:15:21.059-05:002009-10-31T14:15:21.059-05:00Dear Catholic Girl,
Here's what Paul says in...Dear Catholic Girl, <br /><br />Here's what Paul says in Hebrews 1:1-2, from the King James Version of the Bible (can we agree the King James version is acceptable as a source? Which Bible did you quote from, anyway?):<br /><br />"God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, <br />Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."<br /><br />So, it says God the Father has spoken to (Paul and the saints) by His Son (Jesus). It does not say The Father or the Son will not speak again any more words. And if it did, it invalidates every single word in the Bible written after the book of Hebrews, which we both would reject (the Bible is a compilation, and was not written at one sitting by any one author).<br /><br />PLEASE reconsider your position that God is done talking. It is not correct. If you don't feel you can pray about the Book of Mormon, then try just building your relationship with Him, beyond saying pre-written prayers, by talking with Him. He loves us and is so quick to come to us - when we go to Him in pure humility and sincerity and ask for His help! Your prayer was not answered correctly because you already have an answer you are not willing to reconsider (are you?), even if God should speak to you - and perhaps He already has and you have rejected what He said. When we reject Him the Holy Ghost withdraws from us and we are left to ourselves and our own wisdom. The Book of Mormon is the word of God and if the word of God is lunacy - well you be the judge.George J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36357072724813483752009-10-30T18:30:11.180-05:002009-10-30T18:30:11.180-05:00Twitterpated:
Actually, God does have a mouth and...Twitterpated:<br /><br />Actually, God does have a mouth and this is what he said:<br /><br />In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."26 Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father's one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2: <br /><br /><br />In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.<br />27<br /><br /><br />That is what I believe. That is what I pray on. Why is my answer false and yours true? We've already established that we can each pray things into existance. However, secularly, my Church has a proven history and yours doesn't. That is the difference here, so don't insult anyone's prayer. Don't say I'm "not listening". I listen. I just listened and felt the Lord in something else. And for the record, I read enough of the BoM to establish in my own mind its complete and utter lunacy, and refuse to insult my Lord by praying on something that I secularly know as false. It would be like praying on why the sky is green and the sea orange. Its just not worth it.CatholicGirlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-6561542391448831162009-10-30T12:49:11.784-05:002009-10-30T12:49:11.784-05:00You have to actually read the Book of Mormon befor...You have to actually read the Book of Mormon before you can know it's the word of God. Most people won't do that. But they're more than willing to rip it apart.<br /><br />Case in point: My mom was a convert to the church who had been praying to find the true church. She finally gave up and was ready to quit when the Mormons came to her door. She told me she had previously thought they were "too far out there," but as soon as they opened their mouths she knew that the message of salvation available to all was just what she was looking for.<br /><br />Before this, she had too much respect for the Bible to read the Book of Mormon. But once she realized that the gospel message was true, she read the Book of Mormon. My mom said as soon as she read it, she recognized it as scripture. That was it. Her prayers were answered and she knew for herself. She didn't just believe. She knew.<br /><br />You have to know the voice of the Lord from the Bible to know he's speaking in the Book of Mormon. If you don't, then you need to go back and read the Bible enough to know the Lord -- and don't skip the Old Testament.<br /><br />A lot of people don't even take the time to find out that Jesus Christ is the Mighty One of Jacob, the Almighty God, the Great Jehovah. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the Everlasting Father, the Lord of Hosts. If you don't even bother to find out who Christ is, then should you be dictating to other people what he has and has not said? Is he who created the mouth speechless?<br /><br />By the way, if you think Lehi and Nephi don't exist, you ought to ask the Lord about it. He's the one who knows, and he can and does speak for himself. Go to the horse's mouth rather than debate it with mere mortals. And if you don't believe Jesus can answer, then you're the one who has a problem ... with your ears.twitterpatednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-68342018027461549182009-10-30T07:53:13.139-05:002009-10-30T07:53:13.139-05:00I noticed that someone mentioned steel not being u...I noticed that someone mentioned steel not being used or being made with advanced technology, etc etc. Just to point out, steel is made from Fe or Iron and is extracted from the ore via smelting, which according to some sources has been possible since the Bronze Age. It is just an alloy of Iron and Carbon together, which are very easy to find for those who know what to look for. There are various other formulas for different varieties of steel, but that's for another post. <br />If I am not mistaken....Jeremiah in the Bible even mentions it...where is it....yes, Jeremiah 15 verse 12 "Shall iron break the northern iron and the steel?" He was referring to a country in the north, probably a place called Chalybia...did I spell that correctly? So the art of making steel weapons <i>was</i> around during the time of Lehi and Nephi I have to assume, and it could be a bad assumption, that steel making was around even before Jeremiah's time.Rob Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14002908733806585017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-79204348434471029332009-10-28T21:43:47.537-05:002009-10-28T21:43:47.537-05:00Just saw this adress. I was half smiling and half ...Just saw this adress. I was half smiling and half quivering throughout the whole thing. I feel as though he has left members of this generation without excuse in his testimony of this Latter-day work and the BOM. He seems to have "shaken the blood from off of his garments" as it were. What a powerful testator!Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03960519151863517265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56418112668597834802009-10-25T23:02:00.504-05:002009-10-25T23:02:00.504-05:00Sam - you said
"It's interesting that I h...Sam - you said<br />"It's interesting that I have the exact opposite view of the BOM. I think it becomes less "true" every year as we learn more about archeology, DNA, textual issues and as more and more of "the most correct book on Earth's" many changes and permutations come to light. I think that one day it won't matter to Mormons, like the Bible, if the BOM is historically accurate, so long as it brings souls to Christ."<br /><br />What I like about what you said is that you are a searcher for truth. And won't rest until you have it. Here are a few questions that may helpt:<br /><br />1) Is there a God? If you have a belief about this, how do you know it is true?<br /><br />2) What will happen to you when you die? If you have a belief about this, how do you know it is true?<br /><br />3) If there is a God, in truth, is it His job to prove himself to us, or our job to prove ourselves to Him?<br /><br />4) Is an intellectual approach to learning about God sufficient? Is it what Jesus taught?<br /><br />I'll stop there - with the hope that these questions are helpful in your own search for truth. And may the Lord God bless you mightily on your spiritual journey.George J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83462227014100163402009-10-23T19:58:44.049-05:002009-10-23T19:58:44.049-05:00CD,
Here are some quotes from Elder Holland's...CD,<br /><br />Here are some quotes from Elder Holland's address:<br /><br />"When Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum started for Carthage to face what they knew would be an imminent martyrdom, Hyrum read these words to comfort the heart of his brother..."<br /><br />...and this...<br /><br />"...Hyrum turned down the corner of the page from which he had read, marking it as part of the everlasting testimony for which these two brothers were about to die..."<br /><br />...and this...<br /><br />"Later, when actually incarcerated in the jail, Joseph the Prophet turned to the guards who held him captive and bore a powerful testimony of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon."<br /><br />It seems pretty clear to me that what he was saying matches the historical record - but then I'm familiar with the history and perhaps you aren't.<br /><br />I think you may be a victim of the slander and libel that tends to surround the LDS Church - if you hear too much of it, some of it starts to stick. Elder Holland is about as straight-up a person as I have ever observed, though I don't know him personally.<br /><br />I have a nickel I'm willing to make a bet on - if you could arrange to be in Salt Lake City some time, I'll bet he would be willing to meet with you and discuss your objections to his remarks. He's that kind of guy.Popsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37625517800805623922009-10-23T19:35:48.908-05:002009-10-23T19:35:48.908-05:00CD said:
"That's the lesson that your el...CD said:<br /><br /><i>"That's the lesson that your elders really should be learning from the leaders of other churches that have gone before them. You can't spin things and still have credibility."</i><br /><br />That's the whole thing you don't understand: It's not spin!<br /><br />CD said <br /><br /><i>"Catholics are hopefully finally grasping this concept. I hope that your leaders will do the same in less time than its taken us."</i><br /><br />I think you're projecting - putting motives on our leaders that you see in others. Just because groups A, B, C, and D do it doesn't mean that group E does. Your perception is colored by glasses that have been smudged for too long. That's a shame.<br /><br />What Elder Holland said is true. I wish you could see that, but you sadly can't. You seem like a nice person.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-54948578861000133072009-10-23T07:44:46.171-05:002009-10-23T07:44:46.171-05:00Dear Anonymous of Oct 22 @ 11:50PM,
If you've...Dear Anonymous of Oct 22 @ 11:50PM,<br /><br />If you've followed this blog at all, you'd know that I am not blind to my own churches foibles. I'm very much aware of the fact that the Popes along the way have made very bad decisions at times, and that the American Catholic Church has covered up some pretty serious atrocities. And look at the black eye 2000 years of stupidity has given my church. That's exactly the point I'm making. Your church being younger and claiming to have the "truth" really needs to learn from the mistakes of others. Yet your leaders do many of the same stupid things that the pope and other Catholic leaders have done over the centuries. <br /><br />I really don't care if this was the actual book. But I do want to point out the distortion that I'm saying doesn't support the facts of Elder Holland's statement. As Pops explained Hyrum Smith read the BOM the morning of the day they were taken to Carthage. That's great, it explains a lot, but the problem is that is not how the message was conveyed to your members. To your members the message was that at the time Hyrum and JS were killed, they were reading the BOM and died with the words in their minds. Was it said that way, no, but it didn't need to be said that way to convey that message. All Elder Holland had to do was choose the right combination of words, and that message was spun to your members. But it isn't factual, and therein lies the distortion. <br /><br />Again, the distortion is very minor, and by itself would be meaningless. But, when you look at the history your church has of making such minor distortions, it causes one to pause. That's the lesson that your elders really should be learning from the leaders of other churches that have gone before them. You can't spin things and still have credibility. Catholics are hopefully finally grasping this concept. I hope that your leaders will do the same in less time than its taken us.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-34212896150522782912009-10-22T23:50:18.389-05:002009-10-22T23:50:18.389-05:00Catholic Defender said "The fact that your le...Catholic Defender said "The fact that your leaders are generally willing to ignore, or even explain away those inconsistencies, create a situation where people are less likely to trust your church. I think that you have to be honest in all your dealings, whether they are good or bad."<br /><br />I gotta admit, coming from a Catholic, that was rich, indeed. <br /> <br />Perhaps CD would like to have a discussion regarding actions Rome and/or various American diocese leaders have taken to cover up, conceal, and/or otherwise defend and protect priests with certain proclivities... or perhaps we could discuss that most holy of men, Pope Alexander VI?<br /><br />As usual, those who are "concerned" regarding LDS motes, for example as to whether Elder Holland was holding the book he purported to be holding (especially when he in fact was), turn a blind eye to the gaping beams in their own eyes and/or the fundamentally broken "glass" in their own houses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80698818216007687802009-10-22T13:33:20.087-05:002009-10-22T13:33:20.087-05:00For some interesting "evidence" of remna...For some interesting "evidence" of remnants of Book of Mormon people in pre-Columbian America, I would refer you to "Voices from the Dust: New Insights into Ancient America" by David Calderwood. While he incorrectly states LDS beliefs in a few instances and there is an obvious spin in the book (both from him and from the Spanish Chroniclers), if you look past that, there are some interesting nuggets in the book.<br /><br />As for the Nephites having sufficient metalworking knowledge to make steel - or what they termed steel, which may not be the same as what we call it - the Book of Mormon text itself indicates that Nephi and probably Lehi had a deep interest in metal and metal workmanship and skills in working different types of metal before they left Jerusalem. According to the book referred to above, there were traces of that knowledge when the conquistadores arrived.<br /><br />- Dave D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3358652417368353482009-10-21T22:01:12.263-05:002009-10-21T22:01:12.263-05:00CD,
Thanks for the sentiment - I agree with the p...CD,<br /><br />Thanks for the sentiment - I agree with the point you're making. Honest conversation is a lot more useful than spin.<br /><br />You do need to get off the "he used the wrong book" bandwagon. The Church in 2007 was given a copy, with the page turned down, that was purported to have been the book in question. They also came into possession (not sure when) of the copy Elder Holland used in his address which includes a statement of provenance written by Joseph F. Smith, son of Hyrum Smith. The Church owns both books. Elder Holland used the one that takes precedence due to the written statement. I fail to see how that amounts to deception.<br /><br />You're a little off on the bit about when Hyrum read the passage from the Book of Mormon and folded down the corner of the page. That was the morning of the day Joseph and Hyrum were taken to Carthage, not the day they were killed. The day before they were killed, while in the jail, they did some reading from the Book of Mormon, though I don't know that anyone recorded precisely which passages they read.<br /><br />You say, "but the facts don't support his opinion or belief" - I rather think they do. If you're going to assert otherwise, you really need to back it up with something.Popsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45583177851984339702009-10-21T10:25:57.696-05:002009-10-21T10:25:57.696-05:00Hi Pops,
I don't want to come across as havin...Hi Pops,<br /><br />I don't want to come across as having an axe to grind, I really don't. I don't know if Elder Holland had the real book for his talk or a copy he said was the real book. Doesn't much matter to me either way. What I think does a disservice to your faithful followers, is the fact that the leaders in Salt Lake seem to want to promote the "true faith" so much, that they are willing to overlook important things to do so. Little things can add up to a big problem. There are inconsistencies in the BOM. There have been distortions of the facts by LDS leaders, and there have been distortion of facts by anti-LDS as well. The facts themselves though cause concern, because when considered even in a light favourable to the LDS church, things just don't seem to add up. That should cause one to pause and think, can this be true. <br /><br />Consider what Elder Holland says about JS and Hyrum going to their graves "quoting from the true gospel." That's more or less what Holland says, the problem though is when you read factual accounts of what happened that day, the facts don't support the statement made by Elder Holland. I'm sure Elder Holland believes this is what happened, I'm sure he wants it to be true, but the facts don't support his opinion or belief. Does that by itself make your church untrue, no. But, it does make your critics stronger, and it makes those of us non-LDS less likely to put our trust in your leaders. <br /><br />I don't see this as explaining away the BOM. I can explain it away, and you can explain it into existence, and we'll accomplish nothing in the end. But, if you really want to gain converts, I think your leaders, and the information you're promoting have got to be credible. Little things like saying you're using the actual book when you may not be, damage credibility. Anomolies in JS behaviour that are inconsistent with Christ's teachings, by themselves amount to very little, but when put into the context of supporting this church, do create credibility problems. The fact that your leaders are generally willing to ignore, or even explain away those inconsistencies, create a situation where people are less likely to trust your church. I think that you have to be honest in all your dealings, whether they are good or bad. I don't see that happening with your church leaders, and that causes concern.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.com