tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post895422400893054582..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: The Horrors of War and the Lack of Divine Intervention: Can You Be So Sure?Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45789435321131761522012-01-09T21:04:55.301-06:002012-01-09T21:04:55.301-06:00Oops, I think I may have posted this under the wro...Oops, I think I may have posted this under the wrong post, perhaps it should have gone under the Book of Mormon two paths post.<br /><br />Jeff, I appreciate your story about your father's faith coming to him in the midst of the Korean War.Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-91334788423686334892012-01-09T20:33:07.154-06:002012-01-09T20:33:07.154-06:00Jeff,
I enjoy your posts, they get me thinking, t...Jeff,<br /><br />I enjoy your posts, they get me thinking, then I have to comment, then I blow a whole evening haha.<br /><br />Eveningsun, I agree with your comments and I was about to mention All Quiet on the Western front as well! Also, A Farewell to Arms and For Whom the Bell Tolls. These are all masterpieces touching on the subject of war and there are so many more. <br /><br />War, by its very nature, is amoral, inflicting unbounded personal torment on its participants often for abstract or otherwise unreal ends. How do you find two paths, a way of 'light' or 'darkness' in war? Look at WWI, with its brutality and tremendous ambiguity. As I think it was, Henry James who said that WWI had 'used up words,' and also led Hemingway to completely discard rhetoric or ideals or abstractions (such as a path of light or dark), seeing in them illusions that mask the real mess of what life can be.<br /><br />Remarque (in Western Front) continually comments on how the other side is *just like them,* young men sent to suffer and die for the inscrutable machinations of old men. He had great compassion for the other side, because they were himself. The scene I remember most vividly from that book is when one of the mothers is informed of her son's death and she 'collapses into a heap of flesh and salt and tears.' There is nothing like the level of emotion surrounding war in the Book of Mormon like in these books.<br /><br />I am respectful toward the Book of Mormon, because it means so much to many people who mean a great deal to me, although my own path led me away from it. As a missionary with a penchant for literature, it was actually the (lack of) literary quality/depth (and the copied Isaiah and Matthew) that started me on the road out of the Church long ago. I secretly thought that a prophet of God, writing God's words to mankind, should be able to write at least as well as a Dostoevsky or Hugo or Hemingway, and that a divine book should surpass the emotional depth of the works they've written. For that matter, though it's not war related, I've never read ANYTHING that matches the emotional depth of the Brothers Karamazov.Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-4141399054650924082012-01-09T07:44:21.796-06:002012-01-09T07:44:21.796-06:00It should be noted how the BoM tells us to state o...It should be noted how the BoM tells us to state out of the current wars we are in. Mormon warned us to lay down our weapons of war. Christ warned us to not lift up ourselves over other nations and tell and force them to do what we think they should do. The scriptures tell us that we will hear of wars and rumors of wars. It is time to look at Mormons example and leave the military when they are on the offensive (all current wars). It is time to take Kimballs warnings of the false god of steal.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05518762624199557168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-82711263078996461062012-01-06T10:44:33.218-06:002012-01-06T10:44:33.218-06:002 Nephi 2:11 :)2 Nephi 2:11 :)mkprrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409950642803422998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10412403134474945702012-01-06T09:06:36.787-06:002012-01-06T09:06:36.787-06:00Since your stated objective in commenting on this ...Since your stated objective in commenting on this blog is harassment and intimidation, why should anything you say be taken seriously?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17843791946542073872012-01-05T08:59:47.740-06:002012-01-05T08:59:47.740-06:00I'm not sure how a self-identified troll can e...<i>I'm not sure how a self-identified troll can expect to be taken seriously...</i><br /><br />I'm surprised you feel that way. Think about it. Jeff and many others keep saying that what we humans, with our limited knowledge, think is <i>bad</i> is actually <i>good</i> because it's God giving us an opportunity to prove our mettle during our mortal probation here on earth. If this idea can be applied to things like war, can't it also be applied to my blog comments? Isn't it possible that God in his infinite wisdom has sent me here to test you and Jeff and all the rest?<br /><br />Isn't it possible that your salvation depends on how you respond to me? And if that's so, then shouldn't you take me <i>seriously</i>?<br /><br />On the other hand, if you don't like the way I'm now using the old doctrine that <i>Sometimes God chasteneth whom he loveth</i>, then maybe your problem is not with me but with the doctrine itself.<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-71997568325248619722012-01-05T08:40:41.567-06:002012-01-05T08:40:41.567-06:00Right, Jeff. Read all those examples, and then rea...Right, Jeff. Read all those examples, and then read the <i>Iliad</i>, or the Bible's David story, or Ambrose Bierce's Civil War stories, or <i>All Quiet on the Western Front</i>, or <i>The Things They Carried</i>, or even (heaven forbid) that great vegetarian pacifist Christian's masterpiece <i>War and Peace</i>, and put any of them side by side with the Book of Mormon's depictions of war, and you'll see that the latter isn't even in the same league. You're giving the BoM credit for being something it just isn't. It is what it is, and abundantly nuanced and diverse in its depictions of war it ain't.<br /><br />Read <i>All Quiet on the Western Front</i> (or even just watch either of the film versions) and then tell me that it doesn't do a far better job than the BoM of teaching us about the "human response to the perils and hardships of war."<br /><br />You concede an awful lot when you write that the BoM's "editors congeal complex stories into simple lessons that we must learn." After all, this is what people do when they produce texts with titles like <i>Favorite Bible Stories for Children</i>. That's fine for children, but grownups should read the real stuff.<br /><br />Instead of taking everything as an opportunity to extol the fabulous virtues of the Mormon scriptures, you might consider reading some of the "inspired" writings of the secular canon, and then let us know what, as a believing Mormon, you learn from them.<br /><br />Just a suggestion, of course. It's your blog.<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-35495364233739639392012-01-05T07:36:59.706-06:002012-01-05T07:36:59.706-06:00Dichotomy is a good word to capture the teachings ...Dichotomy is a good word to capture the teachings of the Book of Mormon, which intentionally emphasizes the ancient doctrine of the two paths. But don't mistake it's plain doctrine for superficial writing. There is abundant diversity and nuanced depiction in the Book of Mormon when it comes to war. Far from being a simple good guys vs. bad guys war story, we find Nephites and Lamanites in complex roles where sometimes one group is more righteous than the other and all are in need of repentance. Consider the stories of war and conflict from King Noah and the city of Nephi, the Machiavellian machinations of Amalickiah, the people of Ammon versus their brethren, the sons of Helaman in the midst of the Nephites, Mormon and Moroni as righteous leaders of the more wicked of two great armies, the Lamainte and Nephites combined against the Gadianton robbers, the eras of civil war, and the many intricacies of war and supply chains and communications throughout the text. It is far from a simple, superficial text, though its editors congeal complex stories into simple lessons that we must learn.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85862217789811554512012-01-04T21:58:29.080-06:002012-01-04T21:58:29.080-06:00Anon,
he's a critic, not a troll.
there will...Anon,<br />he's a critic, not a troll. <br /><br />there will always be a disagreement, but he brings up well thought-out responses to issues Mormons will overlook because they're too busy agreeing with jeff's well thought-out posts.Openmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13126502895367563452012-01-04T21:44:12.339-06:002012-01-04T21:44:12.339-06:00I'm not sure how a self-identified troll can e...I'm not sure how a self-identified troll can expect to be taken seriously...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-64746562231768953892012-01-04T14:27:28.978-06:002012-01-04T14:27:28.978-06:00The Book of Mormon also teaches the DIVERSITY of h...<i>The Book of Mormon also teaches the DIVERSITY of human response to the perils and hardships of war.... For some, it draws them closer to God. Others lose their faith and their hope.</i><br /><br />C'mon, Jeff. That's not "diversity." It's a dichotomy. The passage (and your analysis of it) reduces the myriad impacts of war to the single question of its effects on people's religious faith, and then reduces the range of those effects to either their strengthening or their weakening of faith. If Joseph Smith had the ability to write about real people and about the complex realities of human experience, he might have given us a glimpse of how war often leads to feelings that are <i>mixed</i> in complex ways. But as usual Smith gives us a portrait of two-dimensional characters living in a two-dimensional world.<br /><br />If the topic is "the diversity of human response to the perils and hardships of war," there's plenty of brilliant, wise, and deeply moving secular literature that will tell you much, much more than the Book of Mormon, which on this topic is even shallower and more simplistic than usual.<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23243531820317064872012-01-03T21:43:53.069-06:002012-01-03T21:43:53.069-06:00Jeff,
Great post. The Church produced a wonderful...Jeff, <br />Great post. The Church produced a wonderful DVD a few years ago specifically for members serving in the military. It is called "Let Not Your Heart be Troubled." If you haven't already seen it, I highly recommend it (http://lds.org/ensign/2006/01/news-of-the-church/new-dvd-reaches-out-to-members-in-the-military?lang=eng&query=let+your+hearts+troubled+dvd). One of the many takeaways is that even in the midst of the horrors of war, God's purposes are quietly and miraculously being accomplished in ways we don't always understand. Having now deployed three times to the middle East and Afghanistan, I have a conviction that this is indeed the case. Again, thanks for posting.StrategySmithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07332544506866147938noreply@blogger.com