tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post96306304554993831..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Those Implausible Plates: With Apologies, I'm Giving InJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63961614692095401382014-07-14T04:46:25.886-05:002014-07-14T04:46:25.886-05:00My answer to your question is this...God doesn'...My answer to your question is this...God doesn't judge the man based upon the crime committed, he judges the man based upon his actions and intent after the crime is committed. God knows that we are going to sin because we are human and subject to human failings. Hence the whole Christ coming and setting up a plan for us to seek repentence. What God is looking for is true remorse, true repentence, truly being sorry. The crime is the sin, and the man gets punished for it by human standards here. The sin from an eternal perspective has to do with repentence and reconciliation.peluang usaha kecil sampinganhttp://goo.gl/9Dp5ZXnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9860494730575311152012-02-06T18:16:36.222-06:002012-02-06T18:16:36.222-06:00Turns out this a pretty much settle debate on Wiki...Turns out this a pretty much settle debate on Wikipedia. To date the apologist have not been able to demonstrate that such a record keeping system is likely.<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_engraved_metal_plates#Metal_plates_in_Mormon_apologetic_studies" rel="nofollow">"Nevertheless, there is no known extant example of writing on metal plates longer than the eight-page Persian codex</a><br /><br />A couple plates plausible sure, an entire recorded keeping system handed down from generation to generation with all the infrastructure and knowledge base required – unlikely. To further demonstrate, even attempted forgeries produced with modern technology immediately encounter severe limitations.<br /><br />What amazes me is that before Mormanity, I did not think twice. I never really thought of the metal-plates-concept as being problematic. However, Mormanity’s frequenting it has a topic spur me to look into it more. He doth protest too much.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85410472709848760122009-09-23T15:12:10.798-05:002009-09-23T15:12:10.798-05:00HI Crazy BYU Student,
My answer to your question ...HI Crazy BYU Student,<br /><br />My answer to your question is this...God doesn't judge the man based upon the crime committed, he judges the man based upon his actions and intent after the crime is committed. God knows that we are going to sin because we are human and subject to human failings. Hence the whole Christ coming and setting up a plan for us to seek repentence. What God is looking for is true remorse, true repentence, truly being sorry. The crime is the sin, and the man gets punished for it by human standards here. The sin from an eternal perspective has to do with repentence and reconciliation. If a man doesn't do both of those, then God's mercy can't come into play, and man separates himself from God as a result of the sin. What lands you in Hell is what you carry in your heart when you commit sin and what follows the commission of the sin, not necessarily the sin itself. That's why it would be very difficult for a murderer to repent and find their way to heaven, not impossible, but extremely hard to do. <br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-35708478135304929912009-09-23T14:58:16.111-05:002009-09-23T14:58:16.111-05:00yeah ok. well then what makes the other churches o...yeah ok. well then what makes the other churches out there have the right authority? it still is a bit iffy if you ask me but oh well. oh and i was just curious about the saints thing, i actually heard that from a catholic and i thought it was weird so i thought i'd ask about it. but yeah that makes more sense now. as for the heaven hell thing, well let me explain a bit. see we believe in a spirit paradise and spirit prison, which is where you go between when you die, and the final judgement. it is essentially a partial judgement and is what we compare to your heaven and hell. then, after judgement, the only people who don't make it into a kingdom of glory, are sons of perdition, which you can only obtain through having a perfect knowledge of god and denying it. let me ask you something. if a man commits a crime, and goes to jail for a time, then is let out later, and god judges him according to that crime and sends him to hell forever, doesn't that make man more merciful than god? just a thought...crazy BYU studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-28316320308225389932009-09-23T10:10:18.194-05:002009-09-23T10:10:18.194-05:00As for heaven and hell, we believe in heaven, and ...As for heaven and hell, we believe in heaven, and we believe in hell. Our definition of hell is very different from yours. Your idea of hell, as I understand it, but I may not fully understand, is this concept of "Outer Darkness." Outer Darkness is a place where you are completely cut off from God's love and spirit. Hell, for a Catholic is exactly that, a place of eternal torment. The description given in Dante's Inferno is pretty much consistent with the Catholic's veiwpoint on hell. That description of Hell is also the description given by the Blessed Mother at Fatima in the early 1900's. You can look up that reference on line, but basically Mary appeared several children in Portugal and revealed what the world had to look forward to if we didn't return to Godly ways. <br /><br />Our understanding of heaven is also very different from yours. You believe in three degrees of glory...Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial, with Celestial being the highest degree of Glory. We just believe in Heaven, a place where we are all reunited with God. Its a much simpler definition of Heaven than the LDS have. We essential believe that if we do what Christ asks, love him, and love one another as we would them love us, and try to stay as sin free as possible, then we will return to God through his mercy and grace. The examples of the saints are there to help us along the way. <br /><br />This idea of Heaven, and all of us returning to God's love if we do what he asks of us to the best of our ability, is why the LDS concept of eternal marraige is lost on a true Catholic; by that I mean a Catholic who truly understands what their faith means. We already believe that we will return to God and be reunited with our families if we as individuals do what God calls us to do and they do what God calls them to do; what need would we have of the LDS doctine on eternal marriage. For that reason a Catholic would have no need of the temple, because God's promise to us goes beyond what happens in such a building. There's more to it than that, and I've spoken about the idea in some other postings I've made. I think there is a general saying among your missionaries that a practising Catholic is the hardest person to convert. That is true, because from the practising Catholic's perspective, we already have all that we need, anything else offered by your missionaries would be considered less than what we already have. I don't mean that offensively, though I think it may sound thay way. Its just that a Catholic practising their faith as it was intended to be practised, is already on the right path, other doctrine would just interfere with that progress. Does that make sense?<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-43703868702711128672009-09-23T10:09:51.402-05:002009-09-23T10:09:51.402-05:00Hi Crazy BYU Student,
I had posted this as one an...Hi Crazy BYU Student,<br /><br />I had posted this as one answer, but the computer told me I talk too much, hence this second post, and probably a third one in such short order.<br /><br />You asked about praying to Saints, that is a grossly misunderstood concept. Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints. What that means is that we believe that the deceased Saints are still part of the body of Christ, and are there praying with us and for us. Its a bit hard to explain, but when a Catholic appears to be praying to a Saint, we'll take Saint Jude for an example, they are asking that Saint to pray with them and on behalf of them. Its more like saying to your bishop, I'm having a problem, can you pray with me, and for me, and say a blessing over me. Many saints for Catholics are patrons of special causes, so when you are asking for their prayers, you're asking for them to pray with you and on behalf of you for assistance with that specific concern. <br /><br />St. Jude is known as the Patron Saint of Hopeless Causes. People of all faiths, not just Catholics are familiar with Jude, because people of all faiths have been known in desparate times to seek his intercession and prayers. There's a story about the actor Danny Thomas seeking Jude's intercession in the early 20th Century because of the desparate times he was in, and having those prayers answered. In that account, St. Jude was asked to pray for and with Mr. Thomas to assist with that cause. So it really isn't praying to the Saints, its asking for help just like you might ask your neighbor, or family member. <br /><br />I will tell you, if you accuse a Catholic of praying to the saints, you will offend them greatly. It also shows them that you really don't know what you're talking about, and don't care to learn. Its like me saying you pray to Joseph Smith. From an outsiders perspective, that might appear to be true, but it isn't true when you really take the time to learn what's going on. Joseph Smith is highly regarded in your faith, but you do not actually pray to him. The saints for Catholics are held in a very similar high esteem.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-24881066731375161702009-09-23T10:07:08.147-05:002009-09-23T10:07:08.147-05:00Hi Crazy BYU Student,
You kind of answered your o...Hi Crazy BYU Student,<br /><br />You kind of answered your own question about authority, but I will clarify. Mormons do claim to have direct authority to act through the restoration of the gospel. Catholics claim to have direct authority to act, because they have unbroken authority given to Peter by Christ, and there was no need to restore the gospel because it was never lost in the first place. Protestants pretty much fall in the middle of that on varying levels. The reason the authority issue comes up in terms of recognizing LDS baptisms, is because Mormons believe they have the authority to properly baptise, and Catholic believe Mormons do not have the authority to baptise. Its like me saying I'm right and you saying you are right. From the Catholic perspective, we're right and Mormons are wrong. From the Mormon perspective, we're right and the Catholics are wrong. Both are absolute, non-negotiable positions when it comes to who has the proper gospel. You won't find that as much with other Protestant Denominations because to varying extents those faiths are watered down versions of Catholocism developed in protest to something the Catholic Church was doing. But what separates those denominations from Mormons, and bring them in closer harmony to Catholics is the Holy Trinity. So it does have something to do with authority, but it has more to do with how God is viewed when it comes to recognizing baptisms.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12032264435298566962009-09-22T17:51:51.858-05:002009-09-22T17:51:51.858-05:00haha so no offense, but like you said, that is som...haha so no offense, but like you said, that is something that is hard to get your head around. and it just seems so much simpler the way we do it... but that's just my opinion. ok so a while back you said the catholic church claims that we don't have doctrine and authority that we need to be considered christian. now, correct me if i'm wrong but i believe that the mormons are the only other christian religion to claim to have any authority. so clearly in my mind that can't be why. i can understand the doctrine side of it, but i just think authority should not be part of that argument. see in my mind, there are really only three possibilities. either the jews were right and christ wasn't the messiah, or the catholics are right and you still have the authority, or we are right and that authority was lost and then restored. now out of curiosity, i've heard some stuff about praying to saints... what can you tell me about that? no offense but is that not like polytheism in a way? and what exactly do you guys believe in with regard to heaven and hell? cause it seems like nobody i've asked has the same answer... anyways, sorry for all the questions at once! haha thanks again.crazy BYU studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-487324621076321512009-09-22T10:35:14.937-05:002009-09-22T10:35:14.937-05:00Hi Crazy BYU Student,
You asked a number of quest...Hi Crazy BYU Student,<br /><br />You asked a number of questions, so it may take me a bit of room to answer. I'll start with your last question first. <br /><br />What I mean by a poor rewrite of the old testament, is the feeling I have when I have either read, or heard read the Book of Mormon. That is the impression I am left with. Its a little hard to explain, but the Book of Mormon feels wrong to me. It strikes me as an attempt to gain legitimacy by using jewish sounding names and using similar stories from the Old testament to gain credibility. That's the feeling I have in my heart about the Book of Mormon; it just doesn't feel true to me, and feels like someone attempted to rewrite the old testament to create some new scriptures. I do not mean that to be offensive. <br /><br />As for babies who are born without being baptized, there is a great deal of misinformation out there on this subject. I am not a scholar on this subject, so I may be incorrect in some aspects here. The general public has the understanding that the Catholic Church teaches that unbaptized children go to some place called limbo. That is incorrect, and as I understand it, the Catholic Church has never officially endorsed this doctrine. <br /><br />I don't know the exact origin of the teaching on the subject, but it seems to originate around the time Dante's Inferno was published, and that may be where the idea of Limbo originates. Officially the Catholic Church's teaching on unbaptized babies is that God is a kind and mercifulGod and that he will look out for those children, and has a plan for them. No where in the Catholic Catechism have I found information that would lead me to believe that God just leaves these kids hanging. In fact, its strongly suggested that they return to him. Believe it or not, Catholics and Mormons are not that far off on some of this. <br /><br />Infant baptisms are the current trend. That is not how it has always been. The Catholic Church has at different times, done different things with baptism. There are reasons for this, but I am not well versed in them, so I really can't tell you why the changes. <br /><br />As for baptism for the dead, I see that as similar, but not the same as purgatory. You go to the temple, and are baptized by proxy for those who did not have the opportunity to accept Christ's gospel while here on earth. Catholics, pray for the souls in purgatory, to allow for them to recieve God's grace and be reunited with him. Its similar,but not the same. For Catholics, purgatory is a place that for those who were generally good people, but still needed to clean up a bit before returning to God, to go. That's simplified, but that's the general idea. Its a difficult concept to get your head around, so you kind of have to take it on faith, not intellect. Hope that answers your questions. I love to talk so, feel free to ask more.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15882747903313577012009-09-22T10:03:37.983-05:002009-09-22T10:03:37.983-05:00well yeah that about explains it, thanks CD. now i...well yeah that about explains it, thanks CD. now i just have one more question regarding this topic. what happens to those who don't have the opportunity to be baptized? i mean cause we both believe you have to be baptized. and i'm sure you know about baptisms for the dead in the mormon church. god is no respecter of persons. he loves us all the same right? so based on your knowledge, what happens to them? and what about little children who die before they are baptized? it just doesn't seem fair to me that they simply didn't get the chance. oh and just curious what you meant by "a poor rewrite of the old testament". thanks.crazy BYU studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19849310469671577942009-09-22T08:25:54.919-05:002009-09-22T08:25:54.919-05:00Good Morning Anonymous of Sept 21,
You asked why ...Good Morning Anonymous of Sept 21,<br /><br />You asked why the Catholic Church doesn't recognize Mormon baptisms. The answer to that is a bit offensive to mormons, but I'll tell you it. Basically the Catholic Church's official teaching about mormons is that you are members of a cult, and therefore are not a christian denomination. Because in the eyes of the Catholic Church you are not considered Christian, the baptisms you do are not recognized because you don't have the necessary doctrine and authority to be performing baptisms. That is the blunt, unabridged reason. Catholics recognize most other protestant faiths as christian, though that isn't completely true with some of the more radical groups. Jehovah Witnesses would fall into the same category as Mormons from a Catholic perspective.<br /><br />To give you a better idea, I'm going to draw on some of the anti-mormon info that's out there. There is a thought among the anti's that mormons do not worship the same God and Christ as the rest of Christianity. That's is in fact true, when you look at it from the right perspective. Consider that Catholics are Trinitarians, Mormons are not. We have one God, who is made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are one in being and purpose. Mormons believe in three separate persons, Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. For you, these guys are united in purpose, but they are not one being. From that perspective we do not worship the same God, because your concept of God is very different from mine. The Catholic perspective on your view of God, is that it is polytheistic, which would make you non-christian under Catholic doctrine. <br /><br />What allows Catholic recognition of many of the Protestant baptisms over Mormon Baptisms, is the recognition of the Holy Trinity, and the idea that even though Protestants don't adhere to all the Catholic Doctrine, they do worship the same God as Catholics. That Trinitarian doctrine is a big point of division between LDS and Catholics, and its unlikely that you will see the Catholic Church begin to recognize your baptisms because of the differences on that one teaching. <br /><br />I personally have a different view of Mormons than many Catholics because I am married to a Mormon, and have taken the time to learn about my wife's faith. In a great many ways I do not share her beliefs, but because they are her beliefs, and they are important to her, they are important to me. I have interacted with many members of her church, we have become friends with many of them. Because of that experience, I find it hard to believe that Mormons are not Christians. But I do remain Catholic because the Catholic faith holds far more of the truth for me, than does the LDS faith. From my vantage point, Mormons are another set of Protestants, you have some of the truth, but are missing very important elements of the truth. The funny thing about that perspective, is the Mormon point of view about me is likely the complete reverse. Hope this answers your question.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-69730550538663078442009-09-21T17:39:51.737-05:002009-09-21T17:39:51.737-05:00well CD just wanna say i'm glad your on here, ...well CD just wanna say i'm glad your on here, it's nice to have other people who feel all this stuff isn't what's important. it's about doing our best to do God's will. now i'm mormon, but i have a couple catholic friends. i was just curious if you could tell me why the catholic church doesn't count mormon baptisms while it accepts about every other denominations. now i don't mean anything about you personally, but doesn't that seem a little discriminatory? it seems to me that a lot of religions out there are simply out to get the mormons! haha but do you get what i mean? just curious what you knew about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-86124536092029332592009-08-19T19:47:06.460-05:002009-08-19T19:47:06.460-05:00CD, would you be interested in doing a guest post ...CD, would you be interested in doing a guest post or two to share things that you think Latter-day Saints married to Catholics or other non-LDS spouses ought to know, or something that non-LDS people ought to know to make their marriages to Mormons be more successful?<br /><br />You write well, think clearly, and have a lot to share. Care to be featured up front a little more?<br /><br />To discuss, if you're interested, I'm at jeff at jefflindsay dot com. But fully understand if you'd rather not or just can't afford the time. No need to respond if that's the case - but the offer is there sometime.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30342007219395164632009-08-19T19:43:44.427-05:002009-08-19T19:43:44.427-05:00Good observation, Bookslinger, regarding Catholic ...Good observation, Bookslinger, regarding Catholic Defender. CD's positive, friendly, and respectful example shows a genuine Christian at work who defends his faith well while asking reasonable questions of ours. Great example for all of us!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85098929287909171522009-08-19T15:14:03.037-05:002009-08-19T15:14:03.037-05:00I just have to second Bookslingers sentiment on CD...I just have to second Bookslingers sentiment on CD I love reading most of your posts they are well thought out and even while i may disagree with your view of our faith you still always are respectful and thought provoking.Zera Pulsiphernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80302713196627941622009-08-18T20:03:24.941-05:002009-08-18T20:03:24.941-05:00Misanthropic:
Scholarship doesn't make conver...Misanthropic:<br /><br />Scholarship doesn't make converts. That's why Mormons send out 19 year olds, not people with advanced degrees. If non-Mormon scholars don't buy into Mormonism, that's just fine. That's not how the church wants to make converts anyway.<br /><br />Sorry to read that you left Mormonism, but didn't go to a Bible-beleiving church. Is there a non-Christian religion you partake in now, or are you some degree of atheist or agnostic now? <br /><br />By the way, no matter how old the OT and NT copies are, they're still copies. So there's no logical point in demanding that 3rd parties see the original BoM.<br /><br />And if you don't believe the Bible, then why play the Bible-versus-BoM game, pointing to the scholarly studies done on the Bible? It doesn't wash, if you don't believe the Bible either.<br /><br />By opposing Mormonism, and not embracing the Bible, what you're doing is encouraging people to not only leave Mormonism, but to stay away from all forms of Christianity.<br /><br />I understood your points very well. It's you who are trying to avoid the implications of your arguments (as in points, not arguing.)<br /><br />By not endorsing any particular form of Christianity in your own life, you're effectively opposing all Christianity.<br /><br />By trying to remove the faith of a Mormon, and not offering _any_ religion/church to replace it with, you're disrepecting all religions. You might as well be fighting against B'hai, Islam, Buddhims, or Hinduism while you're at it.<br /><br />Catholid Defender:<br /><br />You're right. Arguing isn't good in the long run. But, *I* haven't been arguing, I've been "discussing". Those who disagree with me have been "arguing". [Big cheesey Grin]<br /><br />Well, if the Book of Mormon left you cold, there's not much more that could be asked of you. You read it and gave it a shot. That's more than what most people do. I hope your wife's ward continues to offer you friendship and respect your beliefs. <br /><br />I admire you too, because here on Jeff's blog you've always been nicer to the LDS than the LDS (and me included) have been to you.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56312119699300683022009-08-18T19:17:44.206-05:002009-08-18T19:17:44.206-05:00"There is but one original Book of Mormon and..."There is but one original Book of Mormon and it was taken from the Earth (right?)."<br /><br />I'm sorry... I may be out to lunch on this one... but where is the original Bible that I can learn about?<br /><br />"There is no end to scholarship on the bible. Where is the non-LDS scholarship on the BOM?"<br /><br />Did it ever occur to you that perhaps there are just not that many interested parties? Did you know that research of this nature requires funding (not to mention interest!)?bomgolfhttp://www.bookofmormongolf.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-61730467299460604552009-08-18T16:41:35.956-05:002009-08-18T16:41:35.956-05:00Bookslinger, you misunderstand. There are very old...Bookslinger, you misunderstand. There are very old copies of the bible. Recently one was found almost intact (I forget the named given to it). These are rare, wonderful occasions - exciting for scholars. There is but one original Book of Mormon and it was taken from the Earth (right?). So scholars don't have anything to work with except the English translation. <br /><br />There is no end to scholarship on the bible. Where is the non-LDS scholarship on the BOM? Who is subjecting it to the rigors of Higher Criticism? If there is such a book/investigation, let me know. I could never find any.<br /><br />I'm not asking for original documents (though that would be nice). <br /><br />I'm questioning the feasibility of one single historical record found by a young New Yorker. Never mind the angel part, or that Jews living 600 BC knew of Christ, I'm just talking probabilities. What is the likelihood? Yes, yes, faith is the answer. Mine has been exhausted by scientific scholarship. <br /><br />I don't really know how to respond to what you said because it is so far from what I intended. Incidentally, I'm no believer in the bible as far as some divine guidebook or history or anything. It's just an ancient collection of writings. And I don't believe in the supernatural.The Misanthropic Mormonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13561322336767743940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-20064960049805084672009-08-18T09:03:42.921-05:002009-08-18T09:03:42.921-05:00Whew! What a heated debate at times. Guess that&...Whew! What a heated debate at times. Guess that's why they say to avoid discussions of religion and politics at dinner parties :-) <br /><br />If I might interject a bit here, from my vantage point, I see the biggest source of contention is the fact that both factions have facts upon which to draw, but often distort those facts for their own purposes. For me, much of the issue with Mormon teachings comes from what I see as inconsistencies in what your church teaches as doctrine. Doesn't mean I'm right. <br /><br />I tend to agree with the earlier statement that the BOM left me empty. I've read it, or parts of it. Everytime I've done so, I'm left with the impression that I'm reading a poor re-write of the Old Testament. Many of you here do not get that feeling. Great for you. <br /><br />Bookslinger, you make some very good points. I might point out though, that Mormons are as vested in painting thier faith in a positive light, as anti-mormons are vested in painting mormons in a negative light. That very fact is the reason that you have debates such as the one that's gone on here for 65+ comments. Because both sides have reason to manipulate the facts, both sides often do. Compounding the problem, attempts such as the one Jeff opened this post with, which are designed not for debate, but just to further one's own agenda, whatever that may be. In the end, will any of this really matter to God? Let me pose this question: When all is said and done, and we are dead and buried, is it going to be more important to God that we said our prayers, and lived as Christian a life as possible versus arguing about where we say our prayers and what dogma we found to be scripture? <br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-55846862762945202322009-08-18T07:05:08.158-05:002009-08-18T07:05:08.158-05:00Misanthropic Mormon: Can those Christians who cla...Misanthropic Mormon: Can those Christians who claim that the Bible is "sola scriptura" show us the original documents that comprise the books of the Bible. They can't be found either? Gee, how oonveeeeenient.<br /><br />For every club you use to bash Mormonism, you could also apply it to any religion.<br /><br />If someone is going to accept that a God can be born in human form to a human mother, and accept that such a God-man can _die_, and accept that the God-man can _resurrect_ as a glorious God again, well, then God can do _anything_, and all other miracles are small potatoes in comparison.<br /><br />Like Darion said, if you accept the miracles of the Bible, then the miracles in the Book of Mormon, and the miracles surrounding the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, are equally plausible.<br /><br />People who are invested in a corrupted version of an older dispensation, such as pharisees, or even the priests during Isaiah's or Jeremiah's time, don't want to listen to a new prophet.<br /><br />Isaiah was denounced as a heretic and implausible by the corrupt priests of his time.<br /><br />Jeremiah was denounced as a heretic and implausible by the corrupt priests of his time.<br /><br />Jesus, Peter, James, John were denounced as heretics and implausible by the corrupt priests of their time.<br /><br />Joseph Smith, same story.<br /><br />Vanity, vanity, all is vanity. There is nothing new under the sun.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73862551411622963582009-08-17T23:42:00.961-05:002009-08-17T23:42:00.961-05:00Shooooooweee, man is there a great deal of debate...Shooooooweee, man is there a great deal of debate on this topic. Someone in here did mention that the Bible had a ton of facts and the Book of Mormon didn't, etc. etc. I think somebody else mentioned that an angel showed Joseph Smith the gold plates and took them away and that's just...well...VERY convenient. <br />Could someone please show me the way to the Garden of Eden please....or the Burning Bush that Moses talked to. Better yet, can someone please show me one of the twelve stones...that Christ touched with His finger to keep light inside the vessels of the Jaredites. Heck show me one of the vessels too and while you're at it can I get some brimstone from the place where Soddom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Anyone....anyone...okay let's just go for the gumbo here....will the real Jesus Christ please stand up....please stand up?? No...hmmm...very convenient.<br />There are too many things, stories, etc within both sets of Scripture that can be...well...very inconvenient to the reader who wasn't there and yet, we take the stories for their word because they are "Scripture", I mean have you seen a talking donkey before? But it really comes down to faith and testing that faith through study, fasting and prayer. Isn't that what Christ did? We can go on and on about this, but to what point really? I have to hand it both sides, Jeff has done his homework and so has the opposing side, but it still comes down to faith, study and prayer and both Scriptures teach us that very principle.Rob Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14002908733806585017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-24164473693735105072009-08-17T22:40:03.040-05:002009-08-17T22:40:03.040-05:00Oops. I sincerely apologize for going off-topic. I...Oops. I sincerely apologize for going off-topic. I'm new to the world of web discussion and realize my comment has little bearing on the topic on hand.The Misanthropic Mormonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13561322336767743940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3926362119408549312009-08-17T22:11:44.572-05:002009-08-17T22:11:44.572-05:00It's not so much what the thing was written on...It's not so much what the thing was written on, rather the implausibility of finding a complete ancient record that no one else has heard of. In one's own backyard, no less. Written in a language no one else knows. Taken away at some point so now scholars only have the English translation to work with. Just requires too big a leap of faith for me. <br /><br />And discussing religion isn't a waste of time; it can be thoughtful and educative and interesting. Especially if one has no taste for beer, as a previous poster suggested as an alternative.The Misanthropic Mormonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13561322336767743940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66757660523221866092009-08-17T17:28:20.273-05:002009-08-17T17:28:20.273-05:00Jayleenb,
I am having difficulty determining if t...Jayleenb,<br /><br />I am having difficulty determining if this aimed at me or not and if you are concurring with Bookslinger’s assessment of deceptive tactics on my part. I don’t believe I have ever posed as an ‘innocent with questions’.<br /><br />Bookslinger has yet to demonstrate how I have resorted to deceptive tactics. Merely hurling an accusation does not make it true. Ironically, falsely accusing someone of being deceptive is itself a form of deception.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53620335775524894042009-08-17T14:26:11.692-05:002009-08-17T14:26:11.692-05:00Lars, thanks for that tidbit. I was also wonderin...Lars, thanks for that tidbit. I was also wondering if the Amish or Menonites followed the no-women-can-speak-at-church rule.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.com