Discussions of Book of Mormon issues and evidences, plus other topics related to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Thursday, December 26, 2019

Is the Book of Abraham Translation Dependent on the Kirtland Egyptian Papers? Revisiting The Pearl of Greatest Price

A potentially troublesome flaw in the discussion of the Book of Abraham in the generally good book by Terryl Givens (with Brian Hauglid), The Pearl of Greatest Price, is its treatment of the relationship between the Book of Abraham and the Kirtland Egyptian Papers (KEP). Their chapter (Hauglid's chapter?) on the Book of Abraham tends to follow the controversial publication on the Book of Abraham from the Joseph Smith papers, for which Hauglid was one of two volume editors. I briefly touched upon some of these issues in my generally positive review of The Pearl of Greatest Price, but given the importance of the topic, I would like to discuss in more detail the stance taken in the chapter on the Book of Abraham, which I presume was heavily influenced by Hauglid based on his recognized expertise in the Book of Abraham. After reading part of the chapter again today, it seems a little more problematic than I initially thought.

A key passage comes after mentioning two competing theories for the relationship of the Book of Abraham to the KEP, namely, that the Book of Abraham came first or that the Book of Abraham was derived from the KEP:
Both views have evidence in their favor, and the most likely scenario may be a simultaneous and interwoven development.

Initially, it would appear more logical to assume a process of working backward from the Book of Abraham, for three reasons. First is the fact that when Smith translated the Book of Mormon earlier, he streamed the dictated text as a finished product; he did not work from a self-produced grammar or lexicon. It is of course possible that Smith, growing in confidence and ambition, sought to implement more emphatically the Lord’s injunction to “study . . . out in [his] mind” the linguistic problem before him, and so he now worked to produce a key to decipherment prior to or along with his translation.  Nevertheless, the possibility that he dictated the text in a flow of oracular inspiration cannot be entirely ruled out.

Second, comporting with this scenario, is the fact that Smith did produce a completed text (through Abraham 5: 21), whereas the grammar and alphabet documents are clearly fragmentary and represent a project that was aborted before reaching even a preliminary stage of completion. In fact, years after Smith had published his completed portions of the Book of Abraham, he still expressed the hope “of preparing a grammar of the Egyptian language.” That is not to say, however, that he had not developed in his own mind a sufficient grammar to accomplish his purposes.

Third, it is tempting to see the Book of Abraham as a prophetic production and the “grammar and alphabet” as an academic undertaking. In that case, the inspired production of the Book of Abraham would have priority and would be used as an authoritative source from which to deduce the principles of translation.

On balance, however, it appears that the two endeavors, translating the papyri and producing a “grammar and alphabet,” were too integrated and interdependent to separate in such fashion. For while we have no direct proof that Smith referred to this grammar and alphabet while translating the Book of Abraham [here an article by Chris Smith is cited that claims the choppiness of Abraham 1:1-3 is evidence that the GAEL was used to copy and paste definitions to create the choppy verses, which actually are far more unified that Chris Smith recognized, in fact being part of a chiasmus, as discussed in my review of the related JSP volume],  there are indications that he did, and we do know that he was working on both projects simultaneously.

We find in the alphabet and grammar documents several textual similarities to parts of chapter 1 of the Book of Abraham, to parts of chapter 3, and to some of Smith’s explanations to Facsimile 1. Smith’s Egyptian alphabet document also contains a paragraph from the Book of Abraham that appears to initiate what Smith portrayed as a five-degree system in which the definition of a word is amplified through five “degrees” or levels of meaning from the most basic to the most elaborate. This takes place at the end of the Smith version in an inscription added by Cowdery: “in the first degree Ah-broam—signifies The father of the faithful, the first right, the elders second degree—same sound—A follower of rightiousness—Third degree—same sound—One who possesses great Knowledge—Fourth degree—same sound—A follower of righteousness, a possessor of greater of Knowledge. Fifth degree—Ah-bra-oam. The father of many nations, a prince of peace, one who keeps the commandments of God, a patriarch, a rightful heir, a high priest.” This five-degree text in Smith’s alphabet manuscript was incorporated in the bound grammar book and then plausibly reworked in the opening lines of the Book of Abraham: “I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same: Having been a follower of righteousness; desiring to be one who possessed great Knowledge; a greater follower of righteousness; a possessor of greater Knowledge; a father of many nations; a prince of peace; one who keeps the commandments of God; a rightful heir; a high priest.” Here it can be seen that the text of the Book of Abraham closely resembles the meaning of Ah-broam/ Ah-bra-oam in the fifth degree.

Another passage from early in the Book of Abraham with corresponding material in the grammar and alphabet documents concerns the origins of Egypt. In table 2.1, for the character called “Iota toues Zip-Zi,” the meaning of the character again generally increases in detail through the five degrees...[emphasis added]

Several points need to be made.

What Indications?
Hauglid states that there are "indications" that Joseph used "his grammar and alphabet" to create the Book of Abraham translation. The first indication is in a footnote in the midst of the first sentence in bold above where a publication critical of Joseph Smith and the Book of Abraham is cited, just as the same article by Chris Smith was cited in the JSP volume on Abraham to support that claim that there is "some evidence" that the translation was derived from the KEP. On this point, Chris Smith's work is more assertion and opinion than evidence, with arguments that do not merit the attention given the work by the JSP volume or this work. For details, see pp. 72-73 of my review of the JSP volume on the Book of Abraham, "A Precious Resource with Some Gaps" at Interpreter (search for "choppy" to find the discussion quickly). The reference cited by Hauglid in both of the volumes in question is Christopher C. Smith, “The Dependence of Abraham 1:1‒3 on the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar,” The John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 29 (2009): 38-54, available at https://www.academia.edu/2357346.

The other "indications" are based on similar words or phrases in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and the Book of Abraham translation. But how does that qualify as an "indication" that can differentiate the merits of the two competing theories? If the translation came first and was then used to create entries in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL), how could the GAEL entries possibly not have a relationship to the translated text? In no way does the obvious relationship between the translation and some entries in the GAEL support Hauglid's favored opinion over the alternative, a defect that was pointed out several times regarding the JSP volume many months before the publication of this volume. I am disappointed that the same error is propagated here.

A Question of Degrees
Did Joseph Smith really "initiate what Smith portrayed as a five-degree system" in the KEP?" There are three copies of the Egyptian Alphabet document, each of which has labels referring to different "parts" of the first degree, indicating of course that there is more than one degree. An addendum by Oliver Cowdery, not Joseph, shows how one word can have some variation in meaning across all five degrees. Was Smith initiating the concept of degrees and driving the show as to the content and format of the Egyptian Alphabets? That seems to be the assertion of Hauglid in this volume (not unlike what I see as biased framing and commentary in the JSP volume on the Book of Abraham). But examination of Joseph's document and comparison to the other two Egyptian Alphabets by Oliver Cowdery and W.W. Phelps suggest that Joseph is copying from something else, perhaps from both of the other documents. For example, in his fourth, fifth, and sixth entries on page 1 of Egyptian Alphabet A (Joseph's), he writes  definitions similar to the other two documents but without having first written the sounds of the words, requiring him to later jam them in as emendations above each of these lines. This is easily explained if he were copying something and he skipped a word or column, but is less likely if he were creating a dictionary with its various columns.

Likewise, in writing the definition for "Zool," the 23rd entry on the first page of his Alphabet, Joseph writes about a "fixed period of time to the beginning" and later inserts "back" (Cowdery and Phelps both have "From a [or 'any'] fixed period of time back to the beginning") above the line between "time" and "to," a natural copying mistake in which a word is skipped and then added, but less likely if he is writing his thoughts directly.  Three sentences later he writes "spirits Sainnts" and then has to squeeze in the skipped "or" between the two words. Some similar errors occur on the next half-page of his writing, such as writing "Bethchu ain trieth the whole Earth or the largest <​place​> the greatest injoyment on Earth Ga[r]den of the Earth," where "place" was skipped initially and then inserted above the line, as if copying from Oliver's document that has for this entry, "The whole earth, or the largest place, the greatest enjoyment on earth— man’s resident in the garden of the earth." It appears that Joseph skipped "place" and had to insert it, and that he still skipped Oliver's "— man’s resident in the" before "garden," giving a sentence missing something such as internal punctuation or the missing phrase from Oliver. In any case, it appears that this sentence is based on copying from Oliver's document.  Not every sentence comes straight from Oliver or Phelps, but it seems that they are collaborating with Joseph as well as writing on his document.

After sessions in the handwriting of Oliver and W.W. Phelps, Joseph wrote the name "Ki Abraoam" which is stricken out and replaced with a different spelling by Oliver Cowdery, which looks like he is following W.W. Phelps' entry, and in turn has modified his own entry in his manuscript to also follow Phelps. If Joseph were calling the shots and were not largely drawing upon existing documents, why would Oliver strike out something Joseph had written to make it comply with what Phelps had?

Whose calling the shorts here? Chris Smith argues that Joseph is because a late addition of the word "Kolob" on Phelps' manuscript is in the handwriting of Warren Parrish, as it is in Phelps' GAEL, but the word Kolob has been added in Joseph's own handwriting in the Egyptian Alphabet that was started by Joseph. That one clue can also be explained if Joseph's document were the last one finished, or even the last one started, or if Joseph simply added it himself at some point after seeing it assigned in Phelps' document. It seems that Joseph and his scribes were working together in his document to draw upon and extend their work, with Oliver going so far as to add a section showing variations in one character's meaning from degree one to five. As for Kolob, we understand that Joseph gave us that word (with its plausible ancient roots), but who associated it with an Egyptian character? It could have been Joseph, but Joseph could have written "Kolob" next to a specific character based on the assignment already recorded in Phelps' manuscript shortly after Parrish began taking over some work for Phelps and helping him to continue the GAEL. His handwriting for that word does not reverse the evidence that his writing is drawing upon other texts.

It is true that there are more complete definitions in his document, but it has contributions in the handwriting of all 3 people, Joseph, Oliver, and W.W. Phelps, and may have been the last one worked on, drawing upon (and copying from) the work of the other two scribes, including the W.W. Phelps' May 1835 letter that has six characters from the "pure language" which appear in the same order in all three Egyptian Alphabets. Like many of the "Egyptian" characters in the KEP, those six are not Egyptian and their presence suggests these documents were intended for something other than translating the Egyptian papyri.

The format of these documents also tells us something. Phelps has columns for characters, letter (apparently a letter in the English alphabet related to the character), sound, and definition, but after two lines abandons use of the "letter" column. Oliver has the same number of columns but does nothing in the second column for letters. Joseph's document drops that column completely, so it's just character, sound, and definition. But while his columns are neatly drawn, unlike his scribes, he ignores the boundaries and writes definitions wherever they fit after the sound is written. This column format is first seen in Phelps' pre-papyri "pure language" letter. Is that Joseph's format? Is Joseph driving this structure? It seems unlikely, for he doesn't even respect and follow the format before him. Joseph's document has columns. Joseph's work seems to rely upon Phelps and to some degree Cowdery, though he may have revised some wording.

And again, the definition that is expanded across all five degrees in his manuscript, said to show Joseph initiating the source of degrees, wasn't even written by him but by Oliver Cowdery. Was Oliver channeling Joseph there, or Phelps, or something else? In fact, Oliver could have been copying new material from the GAEL at this point rather than creating material that the GAEL would use. To state that Joseph is the source of the degree system and that we can see him "initiating" it in this document, when it is a document he is at least to a large degree copying from somewhere else, requires questionable assumptions.

While it is possible that they are right, the chapter on Abraham in Givens' and Hauglid's book does not adequately support the claim that Joseph is the source of the system of degrees used heavily in the GAEL and to some degree in the Egyptian Alphabet documents, nor does it support the common assertion that Joseph was the one driving the whole KEP show.

Misunderstanding the Translation Process?
Regarding the claim that Joseph's translation required him to study out Egyptian in his own mind before he could translate, I think the LDS community needs to reconsider the meaning of the passage in the Doctrine and Covenants about "study it out in your own mind," especially in light of Stan Spencer's definitive analysis of this passage, as published in the peer-reviewed journal of the Interpreter Foundation. See Stan Spencer, "The Faith to See: Burning in the Bosom and Translating the Book of Mormon in Doctrine and Covenants 9," Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 18 (2016): 219-232, with the following abstract:
Doctrine and Covenants 9:7–9 is conventionally interpreted as the Lord’s description of the method by which the Book of Mormon was translated. A close reading of the entire revelation, however, suggests that the Lord was not telling Oliver Cowdery how to translate but rather how to know whether it was right for him to translate and how to obtain the faith necessary to do so. Faith would have enabled Oliver Cowdery to overcome his fear and translate, just as it would have enabled Peter (in Matthew 14) to overcome his fear and walk on water.
For years, Doctrine and Covenants 9:7–9 has been used to suggest that this revelation told Oliver Cowdery that the way to translate a completely foreign script is to think it over, propose a translation, and then get a spiritual confirmation that it is right or wrong. But for translation, that's pretty much nonsensical, like a game of 20 questions but with tens of thousands of questions required for each word.  With apologies, here's how that futile, infeasible approach might work:
Hmm, here's a squiggle. I wonder if it means aardvark? Studying this out ... feels like a "no." OK, how about abalone? No. OK, maybe antelope? After several hours of study, I'm feeling good about "antelope." No. OK, but it's at least an animal, right? No. A plant? No. A name. Maybe? A name and something else. Maybe? A verb and an object? Could it be "Aaron picked up a rod?" No. "Aaron picked up a baseball bat?" No. Let's get back to that name. Does it involve Aaron? No. Oh, Abraham? No. Hank? Roger? Peter? Paul? Mary? Mohonri? Antelopus? Does it start with the letter A? B? C? ... Ah hah, an O! Is it Oki? Or Okidoki? No. Omigosh? No. Is it Oliver? No. Does it start with "Oa" or "Ob" or ... "Ol"? There's that burning. Great. Ollie? Olisama? Ollikazaam? Olkawabanga? ....[several days of stupor later] Oliblish! That's it. Got it! OK, is it "Oliblish picked up a rod?" No. Is there a verb? Does it involve a small fish? Anything related to an antelope? Is there an odor? Could it be....[Three years later, voila, yet another verse is done.]
Spencer's excellent scholarship on the meaning of that passage in the Doctrine and Covenants fits well with other scholarship from Royal Skousen and others on the nature of the translation of the Book of Mormon. The evidence points to a breathtakingly rapid process, not one of painstaking guesswork, and a process in which Joseph in some way saw the translation, not just one where his guesswork gradually got confirmations. It was revelation, not trying to gradually figure out the basics of reformed Egyptian, that gave us the text of the Book of Mormon, and there's no reason to believe that Joseph lost this power in translating the Book of Abraham.

The critics love to mock the impossibility of translating over 200 words with intricate story details from a single character of Egyptian, as they allege is demonstrated by the very few characters in the margins of the Book of Abraham manuscripts in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers. Anyone familiar with foreign language or even basic logic would recognize the strangeness of such a proposition. Just as it is used to mock Joseph's translation today, if Warren Parrish, who acted as a scribe for some of the translation large blocks of text paired with Egyptian characters had seen Joseph struggling to apply the GAEL to elicit hundreds of words per character (contrary to the usually brief definitions in the GAEL!), then when he turned against Joseph later and sought to tear him down, it would have been easy to complain that Joseph somehow imagined a whole story would be told with a few squiggles that he translated with a ridiculous translation tool that made no sense to anyone with a touch of education. Rather, in 1838 he simply said that "I have set by his side and penned down the translation of the Egyptian Heiroglyphicks as he claimed to receive it by direct inspiration of Heaven" (Letter to the Editor dated 5 February 1838, Painesville Republican, 15 February 1838, Vol. II, No. 14–15, as cited at FAIRMormon.org). Not as he insanely exploded one squiggle into 200 or 300 words using the incoherent and utterly useless GAEL as some kind of translation tool based on impossibly studying out Egyptian in his own mind, but, believe it or not, accept it or not, by something quite different, much more like what Joseph claimed to do with the Book of Mormon, by what Joseph claimed and which I believe was "direct inspiration of Heaven."

As we also learn in Don Bradley's recent book, The Lost 116 Pages: Reconstructing the Book of Mormon's Missing Stories (see my recent review), the early work in preparing the initial manuscript that Martin Harris would lose likely occurred at a pace not wildly different from his later translation work. Joseph did not need to slowly build up some kind of "Alphabet and Grammar of Reformed Egyptian" to get moving rapidly in his translation work for the Book of Mormon. He did not need to study Hebrew out in his own mind to dictate the contents of the Book of Moses. And in spite of the interest that he and his scribes had in some kind of intellectual exercise with the papyri and the romantic notion of the "pure language," on many counts it is likely that the documents related to that exercise, documents in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, were derived from the revealed translation and not the other way around. I wish Givens and Hauglid had more carefully considered the evidence for the flow of translated text into the confused, incomplete, and quickly terminated work of the KEP, rather than accepting the hypothesis that the flow went the other way.

Cracking the Chicken and Egg Problem?
It turns out that the evidence Hauglid points to as "indications" for the dependency of the Book of Abraham translation on the KEP is no such evidence at all and fails to resolve the chicken and the eff problem before us. Hauglid seems convinced that there is evidence that Abraham 1:1-3 was derived from the GAEL, as Chris Smith has argued based on the alleged choppiness of that passage (with little more than his perception of choppiness as the evidence). Of course there are related phrases in the translated text and the GAEL, but the question is which came first? Is there any way of ruling out either of the possibilities? If Abraham 1:1-3 derives from the GAEL and was somehow used to create or was intertwined with the alleged dictation of the translation by Joseph to scribes to give us the Book of Abraham manuscripts around November 1835 (though this and other documents like the GAEL may have come later, as Gee has explained), then one way to evaluate such claims may come from a patriarchal blessing that Oliver Cowdery gave. Here, Chris Smith does make a valuable contribution in referring to that document. See Oliver Cowdery, “Patriarchal Blessings,” 1:8-9, cited in “Priesthood Restoration” at the Joseph Smith Papers website. The JSP site says that this was “probably recorded summer/fall 1835,” while Christopher Smith states it was Sept. 1835. In this blessing, Oliver states that:
we diligently saught for the right of the fathers, and the authority of the holy priesthood, and the power to admin in the same: for we desired to be followers of righteousness and the possessors of greater knowledge, even the knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God. Therefore, we repaired to the woods, even as our father Joseph said we should, that is to the bush, and called upon the name of the Lord, and he answered us out of the heavens, and while we were in the heavenly vision the angel came down and bestowed upon us this priesthood; and then, as I have said, we repaired to the water and were baptized. After this we received the high and holy priesthood: but an account of this will be given elsewhere.
Here Oliver draws upon several specific concepts and phrases in Abraham 1:1-3, strongly suggesting that these verses were already translated and well known to Oliver by roughly September 1835 or before. This is not necessarily fatal to the Hauglid's scenario, but may stress it and favors the "translation first" viewpoint.  I don't think this relevant evidence is considered by Givens and Hauglid, nor by Jensen and Hauglid in their speculations on the origins of the Book of Abraham in their volume for the Joseph Smith Papers Project.

Update, Dec. 27, 2019:
There are at least two other tests to resolve the chicken and egg problem.  One is from internal evidence in the GAEL itself. If it had been used to create at least Abraham 1:1-3, as Chris Smith alleges with an affirmative head nod from Givens and Hauglid as well as from Jensen and Hauglid's JSP volume, then we would expect the related entries in the GAEL to act like dictionary entries, meaning they are not dependent on the translation and not constrained by it. Here is where we have a fascinating bit of data that was overlooked in the JSP volume, when it should have been considered for what it says. Special thanks to reader "Joe Peaceman" for paying attention and underscoring this important issue.

Five times in the GAEL, W.W. Phelps goes out of his way to indicate that he made a mistake and entered a character and its definition in the wrong order. He states that the character he calls "Bethka" should have been inserted between two others, "iota" and "zub zool." See my post of July 18, 2019, "Kirtland's Rosetta Stone? The Importance of Word Order in the "Egyptian" of the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language." 

We can see the Phelps' work of inserting "Bethka" in several parts of his GAEL, including:
  • Page 2, where it is inserted between bars low on the page, with a note that it should be inserted above. See Figure 1 below. 
  • Page 8,  where it is the sole entry on what was one of the many blank pages left in the GAEL, with a note that it should be inserted on the opposing page. See Figure 2.
  • Page 12, which, as with page 8, is inserted on a blank page. See Figure 3.
  • Page 17, which has "Bethka" at the top of the page with a note that it should have been inserted between "Iota" and "Zub Zoal oan" on the previous page, page 16. The page is then filled with additional words and definitions.
  • Page 19, which has "Beth ka" at the top of a blank page and a note that it should "have been inserted between Iota and Zub Zaol aon on the opposite page," page 20
Photos of some of these notes from Phelps are in that July 18, 2019 post. As I wrote then:
In creating a dictionary or an "alphabet" of a foreign language, what is the importance of word order? If one is creating a versatile tool for translating texts, the order should enable one to easily look up a word to find its meaning. In Chinese-English dictionaries, for example, Chinese words can be arranged based upon alphabetic order of the transliteration, or based on characteristics of the characters (governing portions called "radicals" or number of strokes) that can make it easy ("easy" compared to having no order -- it still can be difficult) to find a word. Lists of words for language study can be grouped in other ways as well (common verbs, common nouns, etc.). But what is it about "Bethka" that requires it to be inserted not next to "Beth" but between "Iota" and "Zub Zoal oan"? Why would Phelps care about precise word order here when the words aren't being arranged alphabetically or based on common meaning, sound, or structure of the "Egyptian" character (typically not even Egyptian [some may be Egyptian, derivatives of Egyptian, or fragments of Egyptian characters that are not on the scrolls in their current state])?

Reader "Joe Peaceman" provides the most plausible answer, I think. He notes that in the sequence of words into which "Bethka" needs to be inserted in a particular place, the word order links them to the text of Abraham 1:1-2. Below is part of Abraham 1:1-2, where we have these phrases, in order, and their relationship to words in the GAEL in brackets:
1 ... at the residence of my fathers [1. "Beth" - described as a place or residence]
I, Abraham, saw [2. "Iota" - see, saw, seeing, or having seen]
that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence;   [3. "Bethka" fits here, referring to a better place and, on p. 34, "Another & larger place of residence"]
2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, [4. "Zub zool— oan"— which can mean "father or fathers"]
Phelps cared about the order and felt a need to insert "Bethka" throughout his document in a place that would make it line up with something. Line up with what? Why do that unless he was trying to use the existing text of the Book of Abraham translation as some kind of a tool, perhaps Kirtland's answer to the Rosetta Stone, perhaps being used to attempt the very kind of thing that Champollion was trying to do, namely, to create an "Alphabet" (that's a term that was frequently used in the press of that era to describe Champollion's work) to crack the mysterious Egyptian language? As "Joe Peaceman" puts it, "This is obviously aligned to Abraham 1, and it appears that Phelps saw the order that the cosmic journey/drama was about to play out in Abraham's life. How did he know without a text?"
So not only do we see that Oliver Cowdery was using Abraham 1:1-3 around September 1835, likely before Phelps worked with our current Abraham 1:1-3 in his Book of Abraham Manuscript A, but we also see that Phelps himself felt that there was a particular required order for the characters he was assigning to concepts from Abraham 1:1-3, and that order happens to line up with the order of the translation, but not with alphabetical order or any other readily explicable order. A dictionary for a bizarre foreign script doesn't need some precise order, but Phelps felt constrained by what appears to have been the existing translation. The translation that existed before Oliver gave a blessing citing it in September 1835.

There's another source we can turn to for insight on this chicken and egg problem, Joseph Smith himself. When he spoke of working on an alphabet, he did not say it was for translating the Book of Abraham Rather, he said it was "to" the Book of Abraham. After considering how others in Joseph's era used similar language, an "alphabet ... to" something, it's clear that the "something" is not what will be generated by use of the alphabet, but something already in existence that will guide development of the alphabet. An "alphabet to" the Book of Abraham most likely means that as the translation was being developed, the translated concepts could be used to help create some kind of compiled information related to the Egyptian language, based on the human intellectual attempt to work with a text given by revelation. If so, the GAEL was not a tool for creating the Book of Abraham, but an intellectual (and futile) tool dependent on and drawn from the translated text.

The translation came fist. Inspiration came first, then came (failed) human efforts to do something intriguing but hopeless with the text. What was that something? Perhaps a guide to the notion of a pure language, but without the data and tools to have nay hope of moving forward. They may not have even known what characters from what scroll, if any, went with the revealed text Joseph had, just as Joseph and his scribes probably couldn't show you what characters in the gold plates went with, say, Chapter 1 of the Book of Alma. It's not that there was no ancient source, but that the translation was not meant to give a Rosetta Stone for reformed Egyptian, just as it seems the Lord's intent in revealing the Book of Abraham was not to overwhelm future non-believing scholars with the amazing parlor trick of providing an American Rosetta Stone in Egyptan and KJV English to outshine Champollion and command accolades for Joseph from all. It is an amazing text, but one that requires faith and patience to accept, with rich reward for those who endure and study.

In short, we have three possible tests for determining whether the revealed text of Abraham 1:1-3 (and perhaps the rest of the translation) relied upon and came before the creation of the GAEL.  These are Oliver Cowdery's roughly Sept. 1835 patriarchal blessing quoting Abraham 1:1-3, the GAEL's strange insistence on the importance of the order of the definitions related to (and probably drawn from) Abraham 1:1-3, and Joseph's statement suggesting that the Alphabet he mentioned as "to" the Book of Abraham, not "for" its translation.

On balance, I'd say the evidence strongly weighs against the position taken by Hauglid in this volume and by Jensen and Hauglid in their JSP volume. There is no basis for claiming that the GAEL was ever used to generate anything in the revealed translation, and significant though perhaps subtle evidence that the GAEL depended upon the translation (and upon some other existing texts as well, including several portions of the already revealed Doctrine and Covenants, as previously discussed here and in my review of the JSP volume for the Interpreter).

Some relevant resources:
  • Kerry Muhlestein, "Papyri and Presumptions: A Careful Examination of the Eyewitness Accounts Associated with the Joseph Smith Papyri," Journal of Mormon History 42/4 (2016), 31-50; https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/facpub/3510. 
  • Kerry Muhlestein, "Assessing the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Introduction to the Historiography of their Acquisitions, Translations, and Interpretations," Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship, 22 (2016): 17-49From the abstract: "New investigations suggest that, while the relationship between papyri and text is not clear, it is clear that the fragments are not the source and that the method of translation was not the Kirtland Egyptian Papers."

23 comments:

Ryan said...

Let’s look at this through an intuitive lens.

When Joseph Smith received the papyri, it was all very new to him. And most of the papyri had nothing to do with Abraham.

As far as we know, Joseph did not receive any grand revelation sorting any of this out for him. He had a bunch of ancient writing, some of it scripture and most of it not, thrown into his lap.

But, he did have his gifts as a Seer.

Doesn’t it make sense that initially he would take a little time to sort out what was what, and what it all meant?

I think he translated “bits and pieces,” figuring out what everything was. Like Emma said on her bill of sale, through translating the papyri Joseph learned they are about the mummies.

Since Egyptian theology ultimately traces back to true gospel roots through Ham, it would make sense for Joseph to explore the theology on the papyri, attempting to find links to true gospel principles.

JoePeaceman said...

Another great article Jeff. Many excellent points :), the mountain of evidence grows in leaps and bounds. I’ve been thinking along similar lines. I was going to comment on the points and etc. but was distracted and up late last night examining the JSP. I started on a comment for this Post, and ended up going over word limit after stumbling on some interesting things. There are so many directions that this is pulling me at the moment and I copied my comment and hoping you, Ryan (and I agree it came in stages), Dan, or anyone has time to share counter points, develop, etc. Don't feel bad about pointing out fallibility in my reasoning, I'm used to it :). I'm not sure exactly where it's going but, f there aren't holes, then we have additional evidence that the BofA was translated by the gift of God before the GAEL was created (in stages or all in early July, doesn't matter for this, only that it was first).

I'll start today's thoughts down below with something approximating "This is where I slept on it and now have more questions." :)

Ok to skip this from yesterday....

You ask who’s “calling the shots here?” you examine Kolob, etc. and started me thinking about Katoumin, etc. (with your discussions of Royal, etc.- lots of shiny keys for me) :), you mention “...That one clue can also be explained if Joseph's document were the last one finished, or even the last one started…” etc. and “...seems that Joseph and his scribes were working together in his document to draw upon and extend their work…for Kolob, we understand that Joseph gave us that word (with its plausible ancient roots), but who associated it with an Egyptian character? ” This is a great question, and your point that “...those six are not Egyptian and their presence suggests these documents were intended for something other than translating the Egyptian papyri” is telling.

Also, I agree that "study it out in your own mind" is something other than encouraging Oliver (and especially Joseph...what would he be pondering?) to translate in a more scholarly way, and that the KEP project was likely Joseph helping others seek gifts. But, as you know, OC, WWP, and WP, were each blessed and instructed to seek knowledge of languages before and during the KEP project. At this time, it seems that Joseph felt he didn’t have a gift for understanding languages in a scholarly or scientific way, and he felt others were better suited for such. Joseph was still pleading for a knowledge of languages in Feb. 1836, after studying Hebrew for months and being corrected by his peers etc. The evidence indicates that the BofA was translated by Joseph through revelation. I do believe effort was required for Joseph’s method of translating by revelation, and the Lord worked through Joseph’s mind and culture, but the GAEL was different.

On the other hand, as we know, Phelps was previously interested in the Pure Language and hidden knowledge (perhaps Kabbalah) and was instructed to seek understanding in “all sciences and languages…” He had studied some Hebrew, etc. and had written on it. OC had already attempted a reverse translation of the BofM and translations by revelation. Thus, it may be that Joseph's gift as seer was only for translating that which was sacred. He turned down several opportunities to translate other records (including an Aztec record that some argued was associated with the BofM). He may have tried to translate the Kinderhook plates with his gift, but obviously got nothing, and perhaps noticed a character similar to one from the GAEL. At any rate, from what I know of him, he would have felt comfortable having WWP or OC translate what they thought was an epitaph, or lead a pure language project, etc. using their respective gifts. If WWP led the EA/GAEL project, and the record in Joseph’s journal was from his point of view, then he may have been wanting to gain support by reinforcing Joseph’s involvement (even though it doesn’t really imply that Joseph was much involved).

JoePeaceman said...

K, distracted for a sec. still yesterday. Bold is for gist skimming :)

It’s confusing that people still hold to the GAEL first theory.

Our friend Dan (who has influenced most major BofA critics and groups) begins a conversation on your Rejoinder with: “Everything comes down to the reverse-translation theory.”

Of course, there’s much more to the JSP discussion, however, I’ve learned to listen to Dan and, after considering, I agree that the reverse translation theory is far-reaching. The majority of negative BofA claims are founded on the false assumption that the BofA is derived from the GAEL. (Thus, Ritner did the world the favor of translating the BofA source, case is closed; thus JS was making it up; thus there’s no missing papyrus; etc.)
So, it deserves an open, in depth, conversation.

Dan says “The major problem with the reverse-translation theory is that the [EA & GAEL] do not derive from the text of Abraham but are independent translations of other documents,” (of course, that they're not from Abraham is the reverse theory but, what I think he means is his conclusions for a central argument are based on} “Because the Alphabets and GAEL do not cover the same material, they can’t be said to derive from Abraham,” and “Part 1...deal with the Amenhotep papyrus and princess Katumin, not Abraham...”

This is another false premise. Far more BofA material is covered in the EA and GAEL than other material. If we all are to be logically consistent then this, alone, is sufficient to show that the GAEL is derived from the BofA. And, if we add the historical record, it seems the idea that the BofA is derived from the GAEL becomes absurdly improbable.
Am I missing something?

And, if so much of “everything” critical is based on a false premise, could it be as easy as showing them that the premise is false? I’m sure the case will always be closed for your average hate group, egoist, critic, etc. (truth doesn’t matter to them, only “Mormons bad”), but maybe Dan, Brent, or?

Apparently Dan is already aware that the EA/GAEL are reverse translated (or “derive”) from preexisting “documents,” along with preexisting Hebrew, Egyptian, Pure-Language and, perhaps (as you’ve also discussed) other ancient and 19th C. sources. He therefore knows that the EA/GAEL is not intended as a BofA translation tool and “...has nothing to do with JS’s translation of the BofA...” (If they have nothing or little to do with the translation, then they can hardly be a window into translation, and thus logically aren’t the source.)

So, seems Dan agrees that the BofA is NOT translated from the EA and GAEL. And, after the marathon discussions of: why Bethka “should have been” inserted, alignment, and so on, and on, Dan now agrees that: “...the GAEL draws on Abr. 1:1-3…” (contra C. Smith, the JSP, and most critics) and therefore he is seeing that the GAEL is at least partial reverse translation t of the BofA.


However, we all have stubbornly held false theories when we have a big investment in them, and his reason (or vision?) falters when he continues to argue (out of necessity?) that the rest of the BofA came later and that the “Alphabets and Grammar ... mostly...don’t have anything to do with the BofA.” and to imply that the “...the characters and content in the three Alphabets [only] deal with princess Katumin…the pure Adamic language, etc.”

Dan says “Listen carefully. The use of Katumin in the GAEL can’t tell you a before-date, only an after-date….” and concludes that “The Valuable Discovery notebooks were made before the Alphabets, and the Alphabets were made before the GAEL...So we can be certain that [the] VD was translated at the earliest phase of the project.”

Since there is clearly BofA material in the EA, can’t we likewise be certain that the BofA was translated before the EA and GAEL? Again, perhaps I'm missing something.

JoePeaceman said...

I'm not taking time to edit this, sorry...posting a few more from last night, then gotta run, probably before getting to the BofA Zep-Tah vs Katumin origins preceding the GAEL...

Quickly, as we know, the record tells us:

Around July 1-3 “After [Chandler’s] exhibition Joseph the Seer saw these records and by the revelation of Jesus Christ could translate these records which gave an account...much of which was written by Joseph of Egypt…”

July 3-6 or 6-8? After purchasing the papyri, Joseph sat down with two scribes and “...commenced the translation…”
It’s reasonable to conclude that something was recorded by the two scribes, and that this happened before work on the EA and GAEL began, here >>

July 19-31 The history records that BofA translation was ongoing (header) and they were creating or translating (through a method later called “research”) “...an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients.” So, as you know, by mid July they already had a partial “Book of Abraham” and they’re creating and arranging the EA and GAEL “to” it.

So, chicken or egg ?

There’s a partial book of Abraham in July and we can see more of that in the EA and GAEL than the Valuable Doc. etc. Thus, we can’t honestly conclude that the BofA came later, and all others first.

For the GAEL project they’ve included an altered form of Abraham’s preexisting name (clearly, they didn’t need help translating this) and excerpts from the BofA, as well as Katumin’s name and etc.:
At the end of EAJS, Cowdery adds this key to understanding “character” 2 associated with “Abraham” in WWP’s Abr. 1:1-3 manuscript:: “In the first degree Ah-broam— signifies The father of the faithful, the first right, the elders second degree— same sound— A follower of sig rightiousness— Third degree— same sound— One who possesses great Knowledge— Fourth degree— same sound— A follower of righteousness, a possessor of greater of knowledge. Fifth degree— Ah-bra-oam. The father of many nations, a prince of peace, one who keeps the commandments of God, a patriarch, a rightful heir, a high priest.” I hope to return to that soon, but..staying focused— :)

Again, this is clearly dependent on the existing details of the BofA story and, as has been shown, they were trying to align the GAEL to this existing BofA text—e.g. they messed up with Bethka, and went back to correct, and so on and on.



JoePeaceman said...



So, we agree that they began GAEL research with a partial “Book of Abraham” in hand and the GAEL is clearly derived from Abr. 1:1-3, but what about Abr. 1:4-?

Even a casual reading of the EA and GAEL shows that they “mostly” are derived from the BofA and may even include BofA themes that we don’t have. I hope to return to that also, but focusing…

On Dan’s primary evidence: ?Is the EA focused on Katamin and the so called papyrus owners, as Dan claims? Or is Katumin only involved since she's thought to be royalty with an ancient Egyptian name? And, as he says in his videos etc., isn’t the BofA story of the woman discovering Egypt based on the EA account of Katamin? Or was it already in the extant BofA?

A somewhat less casual reading of the “Alphabet” or EA shows that their research involved using words from the BofA AND etc. which they believed were not translated to English but were closer to the language of the ancients.

The EA begins with a concept: “ah The first Being who exercises supreme power” (root from Aleph?) then moves to “pha-e the first man or one who has Kingly power or K[ing]” They associate this with characters by shape, and expand it to “...royal blood or pharaoah…” indicating that “pha” is derived from the previously existing word Pharaoh, a likely connection to the BofA Pharoah and the important royal lineage theme (it’s not regular lineage, Dan ;)). This EA character clearly equals the GAEL material “Phah eh. The first man, or Adam coming from Adam. Kings or right over Patriarchal right by appointment,” which, in turn, is evidently dependent on Abr. 1: 3-4. So, have we already moved beyond verse 3?

The relationships continue, expanding on: “pha a more universal reighn having g[r]eater dom[in]ion or power.” EA “​phatoeup [royal] family royal blood or pharaoah or supreme power or​ King.” This character etc. is evidently the source for GAEL “Phah ho e oop— A king who has universal dominian, over all the earth” and both likely derived from Abr.1:11 or most likely 20-21 with the EA version being closer to home: verse 20-which Pharaoh signifies king by royal blood. 21 Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham…”

Then, in the EA we get: “​ho up hah” inserted before “crown of a princess or queen or Stands for queen” This may be an attempt to connect the BofA's Egyptus to the Valuable Discovery Ka-tah-Min (Egyptian for something like “ka-divine soul-tah? (as in Tah-Sherit-Min, a scroll owner?)-of Min—so this name may have preceded the VDoc. also, note, they apparently misinterpret "tah" as under, descended from, etc.) but it could also be dependent on something else (and then the Valuable Doc. would also be dependent on that something else) either way, in the BofA dependent GAEL “Ho oop hah” is “Queen Kah tou mun, a distinction of Royal <​female​> lineage or descent, from her whom Egypt was discovered while it was under water, who was the daughter of Ham.— a lineage with whom a record of the fathers was intrusted…”

Note that the woman Ka-tah-Min represents the royal line or concept of house or priesthood, and she is already said to be descended from Egyptus, and thus, contra critics, is clearly not the source for Egyptus. This shows that one of the central themes of the BofA was already developed. The Valuable Document may have been an attempt by OC or etc. to translate (highly unlikely that JS would need all those characters copied in the same notebook, and then to look over OC’s shoulder, when he had the papyri, and could translate as he did with the BofM, and dictate, but I digress) but, whatever it is, it’s not a source for anything in the BofA. They are already aware of the BofA storyline and are creating the GAEL to it.

JoePeaceman said...

This is where I was overwhelmed with too many connections to discuss….. ; ) Skip as needed.

So, they’ve copied and generalized themes from Abr. 1:20-21 and moved to 22-28 and the theme is the right of the royal fathers (or priesthood of house of Abraham).

Context: Looking at text likely transferred from the JS original as Jeff has shown:
Abr. 1:22 From this descent sprang...Egyptians 23 Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham; and the daughter of Zep-tah. which in the Chaldea signifies Egypt, which sign[i]fies that which is forbidden. 24 Whin this woman discovered the land it was under water...25 ...government...established by Pharaoh the eldest son of Egyptes the daughter of Ham...which was Patriarchal. 26 Pharaoh being a righteous man established his kingdom, and Judged...wisely and Justly...seeking...to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generation...first Patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam.
And also Noah his father. For in his days who blessed him [I believe “he” followed “for in his days” in the original and scribes altered it here, losing valuable ancient context from the original that they were reading and copying from (as Jeff has shown), yes, I digress but it’s related to the royal priesthood theme. By personally blessing pharaoh “in his days” Noah would have adopted Pharaoh as a son in Ham’s place>] with the blessings of the earth, and of with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the priesthood. 27 Now Pharaoh...could not have the right of priesthood; notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah through Ham: [This would then be a claim that Noah didn’t curse Ham and make pharaoh his son?] Therefore, my father was led away by their— idolatry; [28] ...chronology running back from myself to the begining of the creation, for the reccords, have come into my hands which I hold unto this present time…”


(And, as we know, this priesthood was given to Abraham through Shem, and (first an aside, that BY may have missed for survival) Abraham was to bless his “...seed after thee... they shall bear this ministry and Priesthood unto all nations (including Ka-Tah-Min, etc.?)...for as many as receive this Gospel shall be called after thy name, and shall be accounted thy seed...shall...bless thee, as their father…” (note adoption principle, and, as discussed with Dan regular vs royal would be a mistake from reading y as g "regalr" from script, not dictating) and in thee...and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood)...promise that this right shall continue in thee...shall all the families of the earth be blessed...which are the blessings of...life eternal.” (and every mummy wants this ;))




So, Abr. 1:1-4 are covered 5-10 speak of the false gods, sacrifice, etc. (conspicuously absent) 11 speaks of “three virgins...daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of Ham...offered up because of their virtue” 12 picks up with the attempted sacrifice of Abraham, not mentioned in the Bible or by Josephus, Plato, etc. but now known to be an ancient tradition (and, by trying to come up with sources, our critics admit that Joseph couldn’t have fabricated the BofA or the GAEL and couldn’t have come up with any of this so quickly (according to Dan, stalling for time and impressing the already impressed Phelps. And, here again Dan ❤:), as Jeff points out, it’s probably “pure fantasy” to continue to claim that Joseph could dictate the twin manuscripts by sorting through the many pages of the V.Doc., EA, complex GAEL, etc. (granting that he already read Thomas Dick, and memorized a 1000 pages of Proclus, etc.) and then beautifully working together concepts, phrases, places, themes, etc. etc. (names of persons believed to have lived after Abraham) into a detailed—miraculously ancient—story. And, all while Parrish is distracted…? ).

JoePeaceman said...

So, who is Katahmin? A descendent of Ham and Zep-Tah and Egyptus? Is Ze-Ptah male or female? (Ze could be either son or daughter of Ptah (Egypt is Biblical land of Ham). Is WWP confused, and creating the EA/GAEL based on misunderstanding of the original BofA (which evolved into Egyptus being the name of both mother and daughter?) or am I?
(Well, I’m confused, but if anyone wants to work this out could be important gotta go…)

The EA continues:
<​Zi​> Virgen unmaried or the pri[n]ciple of vi[r]tue
✦ ✦ ✦ ✦ Kah tou man the name of a royal family in female line [associated with versions of ( ), possibly copied from the leading characters in the VDoc, OC reads them left right; in WWP this character appears to be one horizontal (), might return to that…:)]
Zie oop hah An unmaried woman and a vi[r]gin pri[n]cess
ho-ee-oop young unmarried man a pri[n]cess
Zip Zi woman married or unmarried <​or daughter​>
ho-ee oop hah Crown of a prince or King
one-ahe or ohe the Earth
tone tahe or th tohe ton-es beneath or under water
Iota the eye or to see or sight sometimes me myself
Iota tou-es Zip-Zip the land of Egypt first seen under water”

GAEL gives:
Ho e oop A young unmarrid man; a prince
Zip Zi— a woman married or unmarried or daughter, signifies all, or any woman
Ho=e oop=hah: Crown of a prince
Oan. The Earth
Toan, tou=ee tah es toueh ton es.— A principle that is beneath
Iota= The eye, or se I see:
Iota toues-Zipzi: The land of Egypt
Ho=e-oop=hah=Phah eh: Reign or rule, government, power, Kingdom or dominion.



Notice the themes, virtue, virgins, princess, etc. The EA shows an understanding of complex previously known BofA themes, and then this Zip-Zi woman. Zip obviously sounds like Zep and tou sounds like tah. They altered and generalized the preexisting Abraham and perhaps Zip-Zi is a generalized and altered form of the Egyptian ZePtah.

“Iota tou-es Zip-Zip” then is Zip-Zi the virtuous woman (ancestor of those virtuous sacrificed virgins and Katamin) Iota=saw, the land of Egypt under water…. ??? Egyptus is the one who discovered the land under water, not ZePtah? Going to sleep on this :)

BUT- From Onomasticon “Egyptus”
The etymology of Egyptus is from Babylonian syllabic cuneiform ḫikuptaḥ “Egypt” ..."House-of-the-Spirit-of-Ptah" ... Coptic ekepta...both Nile River and country...Variant ZEPTAH is clearly Egyptian ZЗt-Ptḥ, SЗt-Ptḥ, "Daughter-of-Ptah" (the -t- in SЗt is silent),[3] as is Astarte the "Daughter of Ptah" in the Late Egyptian Hieratic story of "Astarte and the Sea"[4] (which may be later reflected in the name of the Babylonian or Jewish Sibyl Sambethe/ Sambathis, the daughter or dau-in-law of Noah, who also came to Egypt after the Flood[5]...She is the equivalent of Hathor (Egyptian Ḥt-Ḥr "House-of-Horus [Sky]"), also the daughter of Ptah,[7] who is the same constellation as Virgo [virgin, virtue], which is the first month of the Inundation...each king is accompanied by his mother's name...Hathor is the Eye and Mother of Reˁ, the first king of Egypt...otherwise known as “Hermes Triplex”...i.e., the first king of Egypt after the Flood…”

Ka-Tah-Min; Hi-Ka-Ptah; and Ze-Ptah are miraculously Egyptian, but not the same in my opinion….

Ze is daughter of Ptah “christianhospitality” says “More commonly in native Egyptian texts...Biblical Ham, was identified with Ptah...Enoch, like Noah, was viewed in post-Biblical tradition as a second Adam."



Ryan said...

Hey Joe! Looks like you’ve been doing a ton of thinking! Btw I don’t check the comments on my blog often, so I didn’t notice yours at first.

Have you had a chance to read my theory on Katumin, etc? I think you’d find it interesting. I recommend my post about the top ten reasons why Onitas is probably a code name for Osiris.

Anonymous said...

“the attempted sacrifice of Abraham, not mentioned in the Bible or by Josephus, Plato, etc. but now known to be an ancient tradition“

Please provide us with a source for proof of this “ancient tradition.”

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:54 -

Good question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terah#Jewish_tradition

Critics usual point out production of the BoA succeed Joseph Smith's exposure to Josiah Seixas where the critics suspect Smith's exposure to Jewish mystic traditions. You are asking just how ancient is the tradition? The Zohar and Numbers Rabbah do not appear to be more than a 1000 years old, which would explain why the Terah attempt on Abraham's life is not recorded in Josephus.

Anonymous said...

So is it the tradition that Nimrod tried to kill him as an infant, or the tradition that he tried to burn him in a fiery furnace when he was older, (neither of which resembles the account in Abraham) or something completely different?

Anonymous said...

we await Joe's response. Though you do know Anon, that either way Joe will declare victory, but his self declared victory does nothing to change the fact that Joseph Smith was exposed to Josiah Seixas first. It is similar to the Emanuel Swedenborg. No critic has claim Smith read Swedenborg, but the even the apologist concede that similarities are so striking that may be Swedenborg received revelation also.

JoePeaceman said...

I posted a followup to my above comments on Jeff's 12/30 Blog, wherein I ask about Zeptah/Egyptus being evidence for a common early manuscript which all others are dependent on.
Hi Ryan, I'll have to take a look. Thanks for the tip.

Hi anons/OK/fakeOK, etc. etc.

Not sure what you're saying but I'm sure it's fun... :)

Siexas didn't come to town until after the BofA had been written, read Jeff's Blogs, JSP, and etc. for more info :).



Nimrod is a name that means "rebellion,"

There are many ancient sources discussing Abraham, they are not all alike (and there are many discussing Jesus, hopefully it won't overwhelm your faith if I tell you that they often dont match the Bible stories of Jesus. Many teach that Jesus didn't even die at all and so on.) It would be natural for an Egyptian Jew, or Priest, or Christian, to give Abrahamic details that relate to Egypt. And, still, most critics enjoy assuming that burning a person means that person couldn't have been on an altar, etc. but keep in mind the story of Abraham and Isaac, Abraham makes a wooden altar, is about to kill his son with a knife? and then burn him, all at the primordial center, like Olishem...

Hope that helps answer your questions. : ) Have a great day.

Also, you might find more information and references by searching for this: FAIR Question: What evidence does the Book of Abraham demonstrate to support its own antiquity?


The important details are all there, and

Anonymous said...

Congratulations Anon 12:54! Joe acknowledged you understand what he says better than him. Though Joe's self-flagellation and abuse here does not look like fun, I applaud your ability to look at it. While most of us are not perverted enough to stare, we can understand your fascination.

It appears Joe conceded he does not have a reference beyond 1000 years ago for the sacrifice of Abraham. The Fairmormon list does have the 6th century Cave of treasures, which elaborates on child sacrifice and Nimrod being the original mofo, but I could not find it mentioning Terah or Nimrod attempting to sacrificing Abraham.

If Joe had read Jeff's blog he would realize though Jeff does not think Seixas influenced the BoA, he concedes it is possible.

https://mormanity.blogspot.com/2019/04/two-important-even-troubling-clues.html

More fun reading.
https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/026-41-43.pdf
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/person/daniel-levy-maduro-peixotto

Though there is not enough data to say what part of JS's Hebrew studies influenced his theology, it fits a pattern. JS theology coincides with exposure, for example, Masonry and the endowment ceremony. In the past defenders have defended the coincidental pattern by saying the pattern is because JS had to ask God first instead of God coming to JS first. Under this explanation, the fullness of the gospel is a decades long process of JS being exposed to corrupted theology, JS asking God about it, and God giving JS the theology back in restored form. A process indistinguishable from natural processes, with the distinction of declaring the final product supernatural.

Anonymous said...

Doesn’t answer my question.

“Please provide us with a source for proof of this ‘ancient tradition.’”

JoePeaceman said...


I guessed it would be fun :), unfortunately I don’t have much time for diversion shenanigans.

One of the most interesting symptoms of those criticizing Christ’s restored Church is their ability to hone in on straws and gnats and overlook the central issues. NO offense to our anonymous friends…..:)😊😊♥♥

Not that this really matters, but, even the most faithful of critics, exerting themselves for the most casual perusal (with a good eye) ; ), could notice that Augustine also wrote before 1000AD, and the Quran predates, etc, and etc. With some attention, someone might see that Pseudo-Philo, Genesis Rabbah, Jubilees, etc. etc. are all pre 1000CE. The BofA traditions are ancient and at least date to Ptolemaic times, when the JS BofA was written or gathered.

A sincere search might lead you to many wonderful things, including Gee’s discussion of the Coptic version of this story (quite unavailable to JS), which has Pharoah as Abraham’s critic. After God saved Abraham “He said to them: Go to this man Abraham to learn the truth of everything.” I recommend that you and I do likewise :)

:) And, if you pay attention to what Jeff is discussing, you will notice that Seixas may have influenced the Hebrew words added to the BofA, but the BofA translation of the Abraham sacrifice story took place before Seixas came to town.

The Hebrew words in the GAEL predate Joseph’s studies of Hebrew, so they likely indicate Phelps’ led the project. The BofA also predates JS studies of Hebrew, and most scholars agree that translating the BofA inspired his Hebrew studies.

The Temple (including the Chrisitan versions) is clearly ancient (including the themes later adopted by Masons). Every prophet was influenced by the cultural milieu they grew up in. Isaiah, John, etc. received revelations that are easily dated to their times (including the version of the Temple revealed to Moses), this is natural and clearly how God reveals things.

So back to topic on the other blog, and back to diverting for the other critics that this isn’t directed towards ;) :) :)

Anonymous said...

"I don’t have much time for diversion shenanigans."? What? That appears all you have time for.
"One of the most interesting symptoms of those criticizing Christ’s restored Church is their ability to hone in on straws and gnats and overlook the central issues." Being that is about all you do, does that make you a critic? When you ready to be sincere, then you can start learning from Abraham, Swedenborg, and others. Or back to diverting like you do ...

Anonymous said...

“Not that this really matters, but, even the most faithful of critics, exerting themselves for the most casual perusal (with a good eye) ; ), could notice that Augustine also wrote before 1000AD, and the Quran predates, etc, and etc. With some attention, someone might see that Pseudo-Philo, Genesis Rabbah, Jubilees, etc. etc. are all pre 1000CE. The BofA traditions are ancient and at least date to Ptolemaic times, when the JS BofA was written or gathered.”

So you’re saying that Abrahamic traditions were pretty prevalent. How could Joseph have ever heard any of them?

Interesting that his account matches none of the traditions.

Anonymous said...

"Every prophet was influenced by the cultural milieu they grew up in." Exactly, so why then do you reject so many of the prophets.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:54
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng

"Other details in the book of Abraham are found in ancient traditions located across the Near East. These include Terah, Abraham’s father, being an idolator; a famine striking Abraham’s homeland; Abraham’s familiarity with Egyptian idols; and Abraham’s being younger than 75 years old when he left Haran, as the biblical account states. Some of these extrabiblical elements were available in apocryphal books or biblical commentaries in Joseph Smith’s lifetime, but others were confined to nonbiblical traditions inaccessible or unknown to 19th-century Americans."

It gives a footnote, leaving the exercise to the reader. As we have seen with Joe, Terah's attempted sacrifice of Abraham must not have been one of the items inaccessible to 19th-century Americans. Once guys like Joe get going, suddenly everything becomes miraculous, and abandoning the beatitudes, derides anyone that questions him, proving he does not have a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

JoePeaceman said...

Yes 👍, I agree anonymous friend; extremely interesting that extra-biblical "Abrahamic traditions were pretty prevalent" anciently, yet not readily available to Joseph Smith and "Interesting that his account matches none of the traditions," and yet again, almost every element of the BofA story has now been discovered in documents unavailable to JS. One would think that he would have just gone with matching the available information, as some of those other critics would naturally expect: the attempted sacrifice should have been in a furnace, his critic should have been Nimrod, the story of smashing his father's gods should have been included, etc. etc.

Surprisingly, teh critics of our faith malign the BofM by claiming it matched Joseph's culture, and they criticize (without being critics of the Church of course) the BofA because it clearly didn't ... :) I'll never understand their logic or motivations, thankfully youre not like that 😊.


I also agree with Jesus, that those critical of his Church strain at gnats and swallow camels. I hope that doesn't offend anyone in the wrong way 😊

Anonymous said...

"malign the BofM" Stating facts is maligning? Even Joe said "Every prophet was influenced by the cultural milieu they grew up in." So are you maligning the prophets Joe?

Anonymous said...

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence"

Yet here you are Joe focusing on trivial questions to which even LDS apostles have declared they do not know the answers to and do not care about. The BoA is quaint and a nicety, but in the end, the New Testament, like the Another Testament, contains the fullness of the gospel.