tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post111883902863007508..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Microscopic Tunnel Vision: Critics on the DNA Challenge to the Book of MormonJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27208366544921545052013-03-14T14:49:07.790-05:002013-03-14T14:49:07.790-05:00Actually, there is a good amount of evidence that ...Actually, there is a good amount of evidence that modern Jewish DNA would have to be different from Native American DNA for the Book of Mormon to be true. Many of the modern Jewish people descend from Khazar converts to Judaism, and are therefore not genetically identified with Abrahamic peoples. We're talking about groups of people who split 2600 years ago, and both groups admixed with various different ethnic groups. Sorry, but if the DNA had come out and said that Native American DNA was a 100% match, anti-Mormons would be using the evidence I just cited to disprove the link. You can't make them happy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-51211123684164133732010-05-12T13:00:22.976-05:002010-05-12T13:00:22.976-05:00I see banter about Cummorah being in NY. Refering ...I see banter about Cummorah being in NY. Refering to a Cummorah in NY is like refering to a Moscow in the U.S. Both references are correct even though the originals were and are elsewhere.NathanSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16680515355169403652010-01-16T17:03:18.603-06:002010-01-16T17:03:18.603-06:00Hayden, where do you get the idea that Asians have...Hayden, where do you get the idea that Asians have the blood of Ham? You're using Mormon-think to explain science. <br /><br />The DNA evidence is conclusive. Prior to Columbus, there is no evidence of any group of people migrating from the Middle East by wooden submarine or ship or any way. The Asian DNA trace comes from east Asia. These people did not go west through the Middle East to get to NA, but followed the Eastern shore of Asia and arrived in America through what is now Alaska. They came from the opposite direction to what is claimed in the BoM.<br /><br />Such a migration happened thousands of years before the stories of the Book of Mormon. If anything, the DNA of people from the Middle East would show more clearly as they arrived in NA relatively late according to the BoM. It doesn't. DNA can't lie.<br /><br />The Hill Cummorah is in upstate NY. The church has a visitors center or something there. The fact there is no evidence for the millions of dead killed by millions of swords in the BoM has resulted in the desperate attempt to deny past prophet's assertions that Cummorah is in NY, and try and move it to Mesoamerica. This denies the assertions of Mormon leaders. As far as I know there have been no revelations opposing the statements by past church leaders on this issue.<br /><br />There was also no revelation that brought about the surreptitious change to the BoM introduction which now claims the Lamanites were among the ancestors of the Native Americans, rather than the assertion that they were the principle ancestors.<br /><br />You also have several prophets referring to Native Americans as Lamanites. SW Kimball and his Lamanite Placement Program claimed that if they (Native Americans) spent enough time with righteous Mormon families, their skin would turn lighter!<br /><br />Research that!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05158591777049509986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50966644906334235512008-09-28T08:55:00.000-05:002008-09-28T08:55:00.000-05:00I think some have failed to consider the Jaredites...I think some have failed to consider the Jaredites. The Brother of Jared and his people came from the Tower of Babel. In other words, the Jaredites are neither of the House of Israel, nor descendents of Ephraim and/or Manasseh. I can't state I know the Jaredites are descendents of Ham, but the book of Ether and the Bible lead me in that direction. Many of the people living in Asia today have the blood of Ham; therefore, I believe the DNA of the Jaredite people would be similiar to the people in Asia. The battles involving the Nephites and Lamanites are not found in the Book of Ether; that refers to a completely different group of people.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17308918499885636474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39913971543963181192007-09-20T09:22:00.000-05:002007-09-20T09:22:00.000-05:00Although I am not an apologist by any stretch of t...Although I am not an apologist by any stretch of the imagination, I felt that I should respond to the comment above because of its flawed understanding of war and strategy. In wars of attrition (and if there ever was a war of attrition, surely the Jaredite war was such a war), it is not uncommon for both sides to declare a ceasefire and rebuild strength. The most recent example that most people would know of was the First and Second World Wars. The 21-year interlude was merely a ceasefire so that the sides could rebuild their military might. Three thousand years later, one could be equally critical of the 21 years it took for Europe to be able to achieve sufficient strength for the Axis and the Allies to re-engage in the Second World War. Considering the destruction that a series of wars would have wrought to any location and the lack of industrial production techniques to produce sufficient foods, weapons and armor, four years is not a long time to regroup to finish a war of attrition. If the sides were gathering people from the entire North and South American continents, I doubt that four years would be sufficient to do so, given the enormity of the area and the logistics involved.DPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13536202192031966996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21276939911262337732007-02-08T22:46:00.000-06:002007-02-08T22:46:00.000-06:00It has been stated several times here that Book of...It has been stated several times here that Book of Mormon events could have taken place in a small area. Please explain how in Ether 15:14 how 4 years were spent to gather the people that they might get all who were upon the face of the Land. If the events were regional it seems that it would not have taken 4 years and words other than "all who were upon the face of the land" would have been used. I'm really interested in knowing . Also I see the statement that Book of Mormon scholars have discussed for a long time about the events being regional in nature instead of covering the whole earth like it indicates in Ether 13. Would someone please direct me to papers, talks, articles, etc. that are say pre 1980 that church leaders have done that indicate this to be true. Thanks in advance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1165815447609666022006-12-10T23:37:00.000-06:002006-12-10T23:37:00.000-06:00bill, why is there a "new" york and a "new" hamps...bill, why is there a "new" york and a "new" hampshire and so on. is it even remotely possible that like our current resettlers bringing a piece of home with them that the old ones may have done likewise. it seems odd to me that one of the most basic and enduring practices of imagration can be seen in such maniacal waysAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1119654577936793332005-06-24T18:09:00.000-05:002005-06-24T18:09:00.000-05:00"complex and coherent text of the book..." - so co..."complex and coherent text of the book..." - so complex and coherent that it repeats whole sections of the KJV, and replays the popular myth of the time about the semitic origins of the Indians...Old Joe was a master at digging for treasure, he finally struck gold in conning the likes of you...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1119229124395431982005-06-19T19:58:00.000-05:002005-06-19T19:58:00.000-05:00The claim that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Morm...The claim that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon using the names "Moroni" and "Cumorah" from the island grouping and its capital city is one of the most pathetic arguments in anti-Mormondom. One same word and one similar word does not account for the complex and coherent text of the book. Get real.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1119155997343542862005-06-18T23:39:00.000-05:002005-06-18T23:39:00.000-05:00No, I doubt they'll find anything in Cerro Vigia. ...No, I doubt they'll find anything in Cerro Vigia. <BR/><BR/>A better site for locating the remains of the BofM peoples is here:<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroni,_ComorosAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1119145258648925612005-06-18T20:40:00.000-05:002005-06-18T20:40:00.000-05:00No, you won't find a thing. The tiny little hill w...No, you won't find a thing. The tiny little hill we call the Hill Cumorah does not come anywhere close to matching the criteria that the Book of Mormon gives, and Joseph Smith never said that it was the Hill Cumorah. So you're not going to find many bones there. However, there is a hill in Mesoamera, Cerro Vigia, that meets the criteria nicely. <BR/><BR/>This highlights the need to take the text itself more seriously and be cautious about the sloppy assumptions we and many others have made about the book.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1119145174319357582005-06-18T20:39:00.000-05:002005-06-18T20:39:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1119144376060136752005-06-18T20:26:00.000-05:002005-06-18T20:26:00.000-05:00Maybe if we just dig deep enough into Hill Cumorah...Maybe if we just dig deep enough into Hill Cumorah we will find the bones of the tens of thousands of warriors who died. JS found Zelph in a burial mound, I'm sure there are lots more if we just dig deep enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1118893514599419552005-06-15T22:45:00.000-05:002005-06-15T22:45:00.000-05:00Nice comments, Mike. The term Lamanites is used in...Nice comments, Mike. The term Lamanites is used in several different ways. I'm a potential Lamanite, for example, since I'm part Mohawk (just a little, but enough to make me proud of that part of my heritage). Based on Book of Mormon examples, it can refer to New World peoples that are not Nephites, or it can refer to those descended primarily from Laman. Nephites who rebel could be labeled as Lamanites - it was sometimes a sociopolitical term, not a genetic term. Documentation is on my DNA page. <BR/><BR/>The first post contained two links to an offensive site laced with profanity. I object to that and have deleted it. But so you can see sin-city-slicker's anti-Mormon comments in full, minus the two offensive links, I reproduce his comments verbatim here:<BR/><BR/><I>{removed URL}<BR/><BR/>Your comments are laughable and are well into embarrasing, crass apologist works. For a blunt answer of why you are incorrect, go to the general discourses and MANY other sources to see the clear designation of every single native american as descending from supposed nephites by every single church leader before the linguistic, archaeological, metallurgical, etc evidence was found leaving rats and apologists running for the limited geography farce. Why would a "prophet of the lord" call someone to "the lamanite people" if they really were not lamanites but instead some never spoken of people from "the most correct book". Moron.<BR/><BR/>The book of mormon is once again trumped by science. Your inability to come up with anything of substance to explain this is a drop in the bucket to the laughable limited geography farce perpetuated on impressionable BYU freshman and others who accept only the truth vommiting forth from FARMS.<BR/><BR/>Pathetic and sad, you are.<BR/><BR/>{removed URL}<BR/><BR/>Feelfree to Censor this article. I'm sure it will not survive your moderation - remember, as Boyd KKK packer says, not all TRUE things are useful. What a moron. </I><BR/><BR/>Hmmm, well, I appreciate the respectful and scholarly input. Thanks for reminding me what the anti-Mormon message of love is all about. <BR/><BR/>Look, whatever led you to leave the Church, I'm sorry that you deel driven to attack and belittle the faith of others who don't share your anger and cynicism. I hope you can get over it. Life is too precious to waste on bitterness.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1118893175638751392005-06-15T22:39:00.000-05:002005-06-15T22:39:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1118870574655577692005-06-15T16:22:00.000-05:002005-06-15T16:22:00.000-05:00RoastedTomatoes: Just because the Native Americans...<B>RoastedTomatoes</B>: Just because the Native Americans in Missouri were called "Lamanites" in Joseph's revelations doesn't mean that all Native Americans in the entire western hemisphere are descended solely from Laman. That's an interpretation, not what the BofM or D&C actually <I>says</I>.<BR/><BR/>I can think of three reasons why they would be called Lamanites:<BR/><BR/>1) In the 2600 years since the arrival of Lehi, his genetic structure could have been dispersed far and wide across the continent. It would have been spread so thin, however, that it would be undetectable among the overwhelming genetic code of non-Lehites.<BR/><BR/>2) As the ancestors of the ancient inhabitants of this continent (Lehite and non-Lehite), all Native Americas are recipients of the promises given in the BofM. Remember that the promises are not just to Lehi's descendants, but also to the land itself. In this sense, those without Lehite "blood" would be adopted into the "house of Lehi", just as Gentile converts to the Church are adopted into the house of Ephraim.<BR/><BR/>3) When all the evidence is considered, it's abundantly clear that Joseph's revelations were not received in a vacuum. His language, the subjects he asked about, all of these things played a part in the topic and wording of the revelations. If he believed all Native Americans were pure-blooded Lamanites (and I'm not sure that he did or didn't), then it would make sense for him to call NAs "Lamanites" and wonder if the gospel should be taken to them.<BR/><BR/>Of course, all of this is just the rantings of a Mormon apologist who is desperate to salvage the Book of Mormon from the ash heap of science. [rolling eyes]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1118864267285938652005-06-15T14:37:00.000-05:002005-06-15T14:37:00.000-05:00Sin City Slicker,What are we thinking as Mormons? ...Sin City Slicker,<BR/><BR/>What are we thinking as Mormons? Maybe if we read the General Discourses as much as you have we might come to enlightenment as well. (BTW, it's Journal of Discourses) Basically, we are stupid if we believe that the Nephites covered all of America, and then we are stupid if we think they didn't. Maybe we are just stupid, but if so we have been stupid for both reasons for some time now because the limited Geography model is by no means a recent invention.Jeff Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11344848794614278761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1118856819186422702005-06-15T12:33:00.000-05:002005-06-15T12:33:00.000-05:00It seems that sin_city_slicker, like many anti-LDS...It seems that sin_city_slicker, like many anti-LDS critics, thinks that insults are an acceptable alternative to evidence and arguments. Please note that he hasn't even done the homework he criticizes the Saints of not doing -- he refers to the <I>Journal of Discourses</I> as "the general discourses." Abraham Lincoln's sage advice that it is "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt" has great applicability here.<BR/><BR/>Now, to my point: In response to cogent arguments like yours, Jeff, the best our critics can come up with is "your prophets taught that all American Indians are Lamanites." For example, see Simon Southerton's comments in <A HREF="http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/Losing2.htm" REL="nofollow">his response to FARMS and FAIR</A>:<BR/><BR/>"The Book of Mormon claims in its introduction that the Book of Mormon people (the Lamanites) 'are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.' Most LDS adherents believe, and all the LDS prophets have taught, that Israelites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."<BR/><BR/>What Southerton fails to grasp (or perhaps conveniently ignores) is there is a difference between what the Book of Mormon <I>says</I> and what its readers <I>believe</I> it is saying. Latter-day Saints do not believe in prophetic infallibility -- just because Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or anyone else believed the Book of Mormon took place over the entire western hemisphere doesn't mean that is the only correct and unquestionable interpretation of the text. And as you pointed out, Jeff, careful LDS readers have been discussing a limited BofM geography for at least 100 years. It's only in the last 40 or so that it's began to gain traction. (Note that -- contra Southerton and sin_city_slicker -- LDS-run "Book of Mormon tours" are in Guatemala and the Yucatan, not Tierra del Fuego or the Amazon basin or even the Great Lakes area. Modern LDS largely accept the limited geography theory, even if they haven't thought about it much.)<BR/><BR/>So Southerton and Murphy and that church that put out that dreadful DNA video are simply attacking the old, traditional beliefs still held by some -- but certainly not all, or even most -- of the Saints.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com