tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post115979358900560430..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Ancient Covenant Concepts and the LDS ScripturesJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160862389691639832006-10-14T16:46:00.000-05:002006-10-14T16:46:00.000-05:00So when was Saturday decided on as the Sabbath, an...So when was Saturday decided on as the Sabbath, and by whom? I searched the Scriptures in LDSdotOrg and found no reference to Saturday or Sunday. Of course there were many references to the <B>Seventh Day.</B> So it seems to me that choosing Saturday was purely arbitrary back whenever, because that's how the calendar makers happened to arrange the days. And what authority did they have anyhow?<BR/><BR/>Look at it this way: Suppose you found yourself alone somewhere--maybe you'd been unconcious or deeply asleep or something--and had no idea how long you'd been that way. You sincerely wanted to keep the Sabbath but, having no clue what day you awoke, what would you do? You'd start counting days from where you were at that moment, and the seventh day would be your Sabbath. I don't see anywhere that "in the beginning..." God said anything like "Okay, all, it's Saturday, time to rest." So far as I can tell, days were not given names until long after the Creation. The Scriptures say He rested on the seventh day. So I see no problem with Sunday being the Sabbath, since I understand it was so designated to commemorate the Resurrection. It's still a "seventh day," wouldn't you say? I just don't understand what all the fuss is about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160842961697465062006-10-14T11:22:00.000-05:002006-10-14T11:22:00.000-05:00Rick:If Sunday worship is part of the apostasy, th...Rick:<BR/><BR/>If Sunday worship is part of the apostasy, then why not keep the real Sabbath holy, live your life on Sunday? You'll be called eccentric but whether you keep the Sabbath holy is not one of the temple recommend questions.<BR/><BR/>I'm still a sucker for following my conscience. If you feel the Mormons, even in this small way, are leading you astray, why do you continue to follow them?<BR/><BR/>(Incidentally, they do attend church on Saturdays in the Jersualem Center--keep the politicians happy, y'know)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160798658608758312006-10-13T23:04:00.000-05:002006-10-13T23:04:00.000-05:00gourmandista,Your point is mine (kind of). The tra...gourmandista,<BR/><BR/>Your point is mine (kind of). The tradition of Sunday worship started between the 2nd and 3rd centuries. Since the falling away had already taken place, one has to assume this was part of that falling away. My real point is that the change was not made by Jesus, or any of his apostles (including Paul).<BR/><BR/>Walker,<BR/><BR/>In this case, I am the skillet calling the kettle black. I do not observe the real Sabbath, no more than any other person on this blog (with previously noted exceptions). It is hard to do when the church you attend doesn't really cater to that line of thinking. You have to have one day a week to do chores.<BR/><BR/>As far as what to do about it, I haven't a clue. Maybe a letter to the president.Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160789788493938322006-10-13T20:36:00.000-05:002006-10-13T20:36:00.000-05:00Rick:So what do you propose we do about it? A bet...Rick:<BR/><BR/>So what do you propose we do about it? <BR/><BR/>A better question: what do YOU propose to do about it? Will you keep the "real" Sabbath day holy? If not, I'm not sure you're in much of place to accuse us of it (of course, I assume here that there is substance to this argument).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160374130147005252006-10-09T01:08:00.000-05:002006-10-09T01:08:00.000-05:00Ryan, Gourmandista,Only NT references are valid he...Ryan, Gourmandista,<BR/><BR/>Only NT references are valid here as we are trying to establish if the Sabbath was replaced with Sunday either in the time of Jesus, or his apostles after the resurection. D&C references are 2000 years after the fact and could be considered influenced by modern traditions.<BR/><BR/>Ryan,<BR/><BR/>The things that you mention having taken place on Sunday are all great events, but don't trump the resurrection. Not sure if you are trying to build up reasoning for Sunday worship or prove that it took place. I don't think any of those events led to weekly Sunday worship in lieu of the Sabbath.<BR/><BR/>1 Corinthians 16:2 doesn't really say anything about Sunday worship.<BR/><BR/>Now Acts 20:7 does mention breaking bread on Sunday. I guess you could associate that with Sunday worship, but that was a one time event.<BR/><BR/>There are numerous NT (pre and post ressurection) references that speak of Sabbath day worship by Jesus and the apostles:<BR/><BR/>Matt 12:10<BR/>Mark 3:2<BR/>Luke 6:7<BR/>Matt 28:1<BR/>Luke 4:31<BR/>Luke 14:5<BR/>Acts 13:42<BR/>Acts 18:4<BR/>Acts 20:7<BR/>Col 2;16<BR/>Heb 4:4<BR/>Luke 23:56 - this one is particularly interesting because it tends to support that Jesus never taught that the Sabbath should be replaced with Sunday.<BR/><BR/>And many many more.Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160362259813987812006-10-08T21:50:00.000-05:002006-10-08T21:50:00.000-05:00Rick:Other important events that occurred on Sunda...Rick:<BR/><BR/>Other important events that occurred on Sunday:<BR/>- The day of Pentecost (50 days after Passover). <BR/>- John's Revelation<BR/>- Christ's visit to the Kirtland temple (D&C 110), followed by the prophesied return of Elijah<BR/><BR/>And, the one clear NT passage I remember from my missionary days:<BR/><BR/>"And <I><B>upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread</B></I>, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight." -- Acts 20:7Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160352524119662452006-10-08T19:08:00.000-05:002006-10-08T19:08:00.000-05:00I have not been able to locate the tracts mentione...I have not been able to locate the tracts mentioned by ltbugaf, but I have found several talks given by GAs on the topic. In all, they quote Exodus 31. This is interesting because Exodus clearly states that the sabbath is a covenant and sign between the children of Isreal and God forever. Also, citations regarding Sabbath day observance by Jesus was that it was to be for doing good, but it was still Saturday.<BR/><BR/>David O McKay mentions in a talk that the Christian Sabbath is on Sunday to commemorate the resurection, but gives no explanation beyond that.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that this was a man-made change done well after the time of Jesus as there is no scriptural documentation stating why the change was made or even that a change was made. No where in the scriptures does it talk about worship on Sunday. It is always on Saturday.<BR/><BR/>Like it not, if you are not a practicing Jew, or Seventh Day Adventist, you are breaking the Sabbath.Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160350198216583302006-10-08T18:29:00.000-05:002006-10-08T18:29:00.000-05:00Anon,It is true. Jews go to Temple on Friday night...Anon,<BR/><BR/>It is true. Jews go to Temple on Friday night, and Catholics have the choice to attend Mass on Saturday or Sunday. Then there are the Seventh Day Adventists who worship on Saturday.<BR/><BR/>But I have not had a chance to read the suggestions from ltbugaf yet.Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160336074434523942006-10-08T14:34:00.000-05:002006-10-08T14:34:00.000-05:00"It is real difficult sustain Church leaders (loca..."It is real difficult sustain Church leaders (local) who are abusive to the flock.<BR/><BR/>It is difficult to sustain those who choose ignorance"<BR/><BR/>Difficult indeed. Yet if we sustain them in righteousness (barring some exceptional circumstances of sin--which of course requires exceptional measures;), the Lord will sustain us. Indeed, it is important to recognize that exceptional circumstances ought not govern the rule. Two thoughts by Elder Maxwell:<BR/><BR/>"Prophets need tutoring, as do we all. However, this is something the Lord seems quite able to manage without requiring a host of helpers. The Lord provides discreet but needed feedback, as He did to Peter by the shattering sound of a rooster crowing (see Luke 22:54-62), or to an undelegating Moses through a caring, observing, and wise father-in-law-without Jethro's placing an ad in the Sinai Sentinel (see Ex. 18:13-16). (Ensign, May 1982, p. 39.)<BR/><BR/>Also, as Elder Maxwell implies, whatever the imperfections, even sins of our leaders, the ignorance I fear most is my own. Like the government of man, attacking a government officer in the kingdom of God is no small matter--no matter how incompetent that officer may be. <BR/><BR/>Moses said it best: "The Lord heareth your murmurings which ye murmer against him, and what are we? Your murmurings against us, but against the Lord." (Ex. 16:2)<BR/>Finally, by Elder Maxwell:<BR/><BR/>"Our defiance of God is an expression of our ignorance, not of our individuality."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160302832308767752006-10-08T05:20:00.000-05:002006-10-08T05:20:00.000-05:00Bishop Rick----re: the Sabbath. Could you have h...Bishop Rick----re: the Sabbath. Could you have hit on the reason Catholics can attend mass on Saturday evening?<BR/><BR/>Now I understand why we celebrate Christmas Eve etc......Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160302716301352232006-10-08T05:18:00.000-05:002006-10-08T05:18:00.000-05:00It is real difficult sustain Church leaders (local...It is real difficult sustain Church leaders (local) who are abusive to the flock.<BR/><BR/>It is difficult to sustain those who choose ignorance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160289542397799082006-10-08T01:39:00.000-05:002006-10-08T01:39:00.000-05:00I don't suggest that we avoid improvement. HOweve...I don't suggest that we avoid improvement. HOwever as stated elsewhere by someone far wiser than I, "absolute truth requires absolute love and patience"--that goes for our fellow members as well. Keeping our covenants does not simply consist of doing exactly as our leader instruct us all the while mumbling under our breath about what fools they are. We must love not only the publican and the saint, but also the saint who acts like the publican.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160228303568053252006-10-07T08:38:00.000-05:002006-10-07T08:38:00.000-05:00Re: Changing the sabbath--see if you can find a c...Re: Changing the sabbath--see if you can find a copy of the old missionary tract titled "The Lord's Day." I think it was written by John Morgan. It gives a good treatise on the history of the change. In addition, reading the entries "Sabbath" and "Lord's Day" in the Bible dictionary may help. It seems that calling Sunday the "Sabbath" is not necessarily the best use of terms. Rather, worship on the Lord's Day replaced worship on the Sabbath.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160156757320026242006-10-06T12:45:00.000-05:002006-10-06T12:45:00.000-05:00Anon,Forgive me for my ignorance on this topic, bu...Anon,<BR/><BR/>Forgive me for my ignorance on this topic, but is this change of the Sabbath day to Sunday mentioned in the NT?<BR/><BR/>John,<BR/><BR/>Would you consider making statements or having discussions about obvious flaws with the church or leaders (that should be addressed) as breaking temple covenants?<BR/><BR/>Walker,<BR/><BR/>Having these discussions could be considered "building up the kingdom" when the end result is improvement.Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160078469188090172006-10-05T15:01:00.000-05:002006-10-05T15:01:00.000-05:00Here, here, John. Well said. I seldom hear "The ...Here, here, John. Well said. I seldom hear "The church is perfect, its people are not" debate put in so clear terms.<BR/><BR/>Whatever we may think of our church leaders, that does not exempt us from our fundamental duties as members of Zion to build up the kingdom. We have grander things to worry about than that. Of course, gregarious violations need to be reported to the proper individuals. However, personality quirks are a low priority indeed for the disciple, even the disciple-scholar.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160054397544372162006-10-05T08:19:00.000-05:002006-10-05T08:19:00.000-05:00The Sabbath day observance changed to Sunday with ...The Sabbath day observance changed to Sunday with the resurrection of Jesus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1160025003841643472006-10-05T00:10:00.000-05:002006-10-05T00:10:00.000-05:00Something that has bugged me for a long time is wh...Something that has bugged me for a long time is why the true sabbath wasn't restored.<BR/><BR/>The sabbath really starts at sundown on Friday and runs thru sundown on Saturday.<BR/><BR/>Why do we still shop, work, play, on the Sabbath, and worship on just another day?Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1159902704786629592006-10-03T14:11:00.000-05:002006-10-03T14:11:00.000-05:00Thanks for this post. I've been contemplating tem...Thanks for this post. <BR/><BR/>I've been contemplating temple covenants recently, and had the realization that the Lord wants to give us more truth and light - but that in order to receive we must be willing to covenant with him. <BR/><BR/>Before receiving the tokens of the priesthood, we make sacred covenants which gradually become more fervent - from obeying the Lord to consecrating all we have or possess to the Lord. <BR/><BR/>Unto whom much is given, much is required.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com