tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post116852215117788558..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: A Leg Up on the Critics: Facsimile 1 of the Book of AbrahamJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16437243333863904482007-01-29T00:15:00.000-06:002007-01-29T00:15:00.000-06:00Michael Rhodes gave a lecture where he pointed out...Michael Rhodes gave a lecture where he pointed out that in an ancient document a similar image to Facsimile #1 except that the lion couch is behind the Jackal. One this facsimile the words, "Abraham who upon" is written on the side. This is a clear connection with Abraham. Does anyone have a copy of that Facsimile? My email address is mckay.dennis@gmail.com Thanks for any helpDennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09637428221856633083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168945828683394452007-01-16T05:10:00.000-06:002007-01-16T05:10:00.000-06:00>As a pagan to Christian, to convert I have seen m...>As a pagan to Christian, to convert I have seen many reasons why people <BR/>>(exmembers, name removal members, inactive members, and nonmembers) are <BR/>>critical about the church. Most reasons are understandable. Those that <BR/>>have had some membership with the church that blog on with criticisms <BR/>>about the church feel they have been damaged by the church or people in <BR/>>the church. As a convert with a solid testimony I have been shocked at <BR/>>the disinformation, misinformation, with held information and bad <BR/>>dealings many of these people have had with the church and its members.<BR/>>If you are a BOC you may see your church as just a church and have <BR/>>seen all these things and except them for what ever reason. As a <BR/>>convert when you think, feel, or learn that the gospel has been <BR/>>restored many are devastated when they are confronted with the reality <BR/>>that those you trusted the most have let you down. Nonmembers try to <BR/>>use all of these failings by the church and its members to be critical <BR/>>and fuel the antagonizing feelings against the church. So if the disgruntled <BR/>>members appear to be a lot more hostile than nonmembers this could be <BR/>>why. You might try to blame it on one thing but there is a lot more <BR/>>problems that disgruntled people have against the church. This is from <BR/>>one that has seen a lot I these things.<BR/>ref. 5:38 MormanityAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168889780666504862007-01-15T13:36:00.000-06:002007-01-15T13:36:00.000-06:007:19 - good point!Another thought, if one of the h...7:19 - good point!<BR/><BR/>Another thought, if one of the hands actually a wingtip leaving one hand elevated, where is the other hand? In the link to other scenes, the other hand is either at the side of the body or at the crotch. <BR/><BR/>You can see in the original that there is no hand at the side. And I doubt the subject of the facsimil is in the process of procreating because of the clothing - something absent in the other examples. <BR/><BR/>The only other explanation I can think of is that the hand we see elevated is his left hand (the one closest to us), and his right hand could be at his right side? But in the other examples, it is always the hand furthest away from the observer that is elevated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168874371046618702007-01-15T09:19:00.000-06:002007-01-15T09:19:00.000-06:00Casual Mormon,Actually given the current state of ...<I>Casual Mormon,<BR/>Actually given the current state of the original it is quite possible that one of the 'hands' is actually a wing tip, since it is not uncommon to have a bird in the center of these scenes. Therefore, that would leave one hand elevated, which is common to the examples in the website I linked.</I><BR/><BR/>Fascinating--great observation!<BR/><BR/>Still, the positioning of the hands(even if it's just one hand) is different from all of the other examples. In the other examples, the hands are to the forehead, with the elbows practically pointing straight up. In the facsimile, the hands are further from the face. Does anyone know the significance of that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168788781685972042007-01-14T09:33:00.000-06:002007-01-14T09:33:00.000-06:00floyd the wonderdog...do you have any references t...floyd the wonderdog...do you have any references to the scroll and joseph's translation of them? It's not that I don't believe you I just want to read more about it. This is the first time I have heard about this. I will always believe in this Church and its principles no matter what anybody says about it. I chose to believe in God and His prophets. Compared to the life I lead before I joined I am doing better than I ever had. I refuse to believe that God will allow corrupted leaders to continue in His Church for very long. Look what happened to Zarahemla in the Book of Mormon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168773663009988422007-01-14T05:21:00.000-06:002007-01-14T05:21:00.000-06:00As a convert (I qualify this because I have found ...As a convert (I qualify this because I have found my life and experiences have been very different from life long members) I have had horrible experiences at the hands of members. Everything from fraud, lawsuits, prudery, and attempted murder. For a time I felt like many of the ex-members that make comments on various blogs and I remember how cheated I felt. However, I have never felt i'll will toward the church or it's doctrines and I have been blessed with some of the most incredible spiritual experiences before and during my time in the church. I at times may get sarcastic toward both non-members, exmembers, and active members; but I try not to name call. I apologize for my bad since of humor. <BR/>Jeff, I am grateful for your web page because before the world wide web, getting information from all points of views, regardless of how harsh was impossible to do. Thanks for all your hard work. Feel free to edit anything I post and anyone that wants to take any shots at me feel free to do so. It could be good therapy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168752164101754002007-01-13T23:22:00.000-06:002007-01-13T23:22:00.000-06:00Dear freinds,I feel so discouraged by the obvious ...Dear freinds,I feel so discouraged by the obvious desire of all religions to justify themselves to each other.Is it not true the only one we truly need to by just before is God?The great deciever must be very proud of the mass confusion that has permiated every organization dedicated to"GOD".My prayers are for you all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168741718720806732007-01-13T20:28:00.000-06:002007-01-13T20:28:00.000-06:00Mormanity,I would probably vote for you, even thou...Mormanity,<BR/><BR/>I would probably vote for you, even though I disagree with your religious beliefs, because I think you are sincere and fair, and I appreciate your tolerance of EXMOs as do many others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168738731633837042007-01-13T19:38:00.000-06:002007-01-13T19:38:00.000-06:00A brief time out. I don't have any trouble with ci...A brief time out. I don't have any trouble with civil comments being posted here by former Mormons (FM), not-yet former Mormons (NYFM), or currently anti but still prospective Mormons (CABSPM - pronounced "cabspam"). I don't see it as a sign of insecurity or cognitive dissonance that they would come here and poke at my arguments. People who have been involved with the Church ought to be interested in LDS topics. Why not?? And if they sincerely think we are wrong, it could be a very thoughtful act to come here and try to help others see through the spin Mormon defenders give. I don't mean to encourage that, but I can understand it. <BR/><BR/>Look, from their perspective, I can imagine why they'd be upset with the Church and with the folly of believing in our religion, and it would make sense to take part in debates. I don't see it as a sign of weakness or fear or doubt. <BR/><BR/>I really prefer it when people try to be engage in a discussion rather than name calling. I encourage all to be at least marginally polite, avoid cheap shots (sorry when I take them! I'm working on that), and stay on topic. When things get out of hand, in my arbitary opinion, I reserve the right to simply delete comments, thus snuffing our the essential civil rights of my victims at my whim. Hey, that's what this small amount of power I have does to me. Be glad I'm not your President!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168736010997660122007-01-13T18:53:00.000-06:002007-01-13T18:53:00.000-06:00Correction on my 4:51 post, the wing tip we see, i...Correction on my 4:51 post, the wing tip we see, it is the entire bird we don't see due to the tear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168735888975729442007-01-13T18:51:00.000-06:002007-01-13T18:51:00.000-06:00Okay, getting back to the topic. Jonathan3d if yo...Okay, getting back to the topic. Jonathan3d if you look closely at what remains of Fascimile 1 you will see there is ample reason to believe that one of the 'hands' is in fact a wing tip which we don't see due to the tear. As you are aware, since you claim to have looked at numerous images of this scene, a bird is not uncommon in the center of this scene.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168732199798792872007-01-13T17:49:00.000-06:002007-01-13T17:49:00.000-06:00mike parker,Perhaps the reason is due to the unsta...mike parker,<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the reason is due to the unstable state that the LDS church has left them in, once they figure out the con. Their whole world comes crashing down around them. Everything they believed in and modeled their life after has just become false -this also adds to the bitterness that bookslinger refers to -.<BR/><BR/>Imagine, when you find out that the "only true church" is really just a front, made up by a master con man, and propogated by people that have to know its not true, it becomes hard to believe in anything at that point.<BR/><BR/>It takes awhile to get out of the mire and realize that this life is the one you should live to the fullest, and not bog yourself down in unfounded sacrifice in preparation for the unknown.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168731804844598362007-01-13T17:43:00.000-06:002007-01-13T17:43:00.000-06:00bookslinger,How soon we forget the post of Mormani...bookslinger,<BR/><BR/>How soon we forget the post of Mormanity himself explaining why so many exmormons could be viewed as bitter.<BR/><BR/>Let me summarize that post for you. <BR/>In short, if their spouse is still tied to LDS faith, there is often trouble in the marriage, to the point of divorce (at the encouragement of the church). For those unmarried, the family tension is incredible. At a minimum you have family that are concerned about your soul, to the extreme, where you are shunned.<BR/><BR/>Flippant statements are not only unfounded, but they border on rediculous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168730365992992112007-01-13T17:19:00.000-06:002007-01-13T17:19:00.000-06:00Mike wrote: "...and repeatedly justify their exod...Mike wrote: "...and repeatedly justify their exodus from the faith is ample evidence that it is they, not us, who suffer from 'cognitive dissonance.'"<BR/><BR/>Not exactly. It's kind of like knocking on a stranger's door and asking if they want to know more about the Mormon church (been there, done that), except now it's checking in to see if you want to know how peaceful it is once you realize the reason for the whole concocted story was to drive obedience and conformity, not salvation.<BR/><BR/>And the other side of the veil is more beautiful than the side that I thought was the "truth."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168724927719852652007-01-13T15:48:00.000-06:002007-01-13T15:48:00.000-06:00Paul wrote: the cognitive dissonance and the need ...Paul wrote: <I>the cognitive dissonance and the need to grasp at straws dissipates</I><BR/><BR/>The fact that so many former Saints feel compelled to visit pro-LDS message boards (like this one) and repeatedly justify their exodus from the faith is ample evidence that it is <I>they</I>, not us, who suffer from "cognitive dissonance."<BR/><BR/>Oh, the irony is thick.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120374705032268459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168724537449381532007-01-13T15:42:00.000-06:002007-01-13T15:42:00.000-06:00"- and you will have a sense of peace like you hav...<I>"- and you will have a sense of peace like you have never felt before."</I><BR/><BR/>I believe the opposite is true. The online ex-mormons are some of most bitter people around. They can't let the church alone. They are more vituperative than anti-mormons who've never been part of the church.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168719831952106442007-01-13T14:23:00.000-06:002007-01-13T14:23:00.000-06:00Actually, until he wrote "Old Joe didn't 'translat...Actually, until he wrote "Old Joe didn't 'translate' anything," I thought he was referring to the critics.Prof. Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13200517069427286498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168715585109013482007-01-13T13:13:00.000-06:002007-01-13T13:13:00.000-06:00Wow--PAUL has spoken! We might as well all just cu...Wow--PAUL has spoken! We might as well all just curl up under our beds, suck our thumbs, and forget the whole thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168708192207447622007-01-13T11:09:00.000-06:002007-01-13T11:09:00.000-06:00At some point all of these tortured rationalizatio...At some point all of these tortured rationalizations will come crashing down and a new reality will wash over you - <BR/><BR/>- and you will have a sense of peace like you have never felt before.<BR/><BR/>- true spirituality comes from letting your God-given rational mind speak.<BR/><BR/>- the cognitive dissonance and the need to grasp at straws dissipates<BR/><BR/>- Old Joe didn't 'translate' anything. And God doesn't need golden plates, lost pages, lost scrolls, three Nephites, Zelph, Hebrews in submarines, warriors on tapirs, seer stones, faces in hats, etc.<BR/><BR/>- the world is beautiful as it is, and the God around us doesn't need a confidence man with a libido to tell his story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168697260312517252007-01-13T08:07:00.000-06:002007-01-13T08:07:00.000-06:00Let's not forget that along with the drawings was ...Let's not forget that along with the drawings was a scroll about 12 feet long. There are several accounts of people having seen the scroll, but it became lost. Some conjecture that the drawings are merely aids to remember what was written on the scroll. Joseph didn't translate the story from the drawings, but from the scroll. The drawings were included in the PoGP because they were referenced in the scroll.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168695619956450952007-01-13T07:40:00.000-06:002007-01-13T07:40:00.000-06:00Ray is correct. There is only a few examples of th...Ray is correct. There is only a few examples of the name of Abraham befound in Egypy and no proof of Moses or the children of Israel in Egypt. There is only a couple of referances to Jesus in documents out side the bible so we must conclude that we are all misguded.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168679693008697972007-01-13T03:14:00.000-06:002007-01-13T03:14:00.000-06:00Now you did it. You and the G.A.s have completely ...Now you did it. You and the G.A.s have completely destroyed my testimony that took years for me to build up. Now I will have to wait for the science of archeology to prove the scriptures to me. No wait I'll worship at the church of Ray Dowd. My tithing check is in the mail. I still like Jeff's points on the BofA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168667528434342592007-01-12T23:52:00.000-06:002007-01-12T23:52:00.000-06:00I've looked at Egyptian materials in many location...I've looked at Egyptian materials in many locations in Egypt, as well as in the Egyptian museum in Turin, Italy, and many other museums around the world and I've never seen one other than the BoA with the person on the altar in a prayer stance like this. So I'm with Jeff on this one.jonathan3dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168623889230341292007-01-12T11:44:00.000-06:002007-01-12T11:44:00.000-06:00Casual Mormon,Actually given the current state of ...Casual Mormon,<BR/>Actually given the current state of the original it is quite possible that one of the 'hands' is actually a wing tip, since it is not uncommon to have a bird in the center of these scenes. Therefore, that would leave one hand elevated, which is common to the examples in the website I linked.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1168622972063798052007-01-12T11:29:00.000-06:002007-01-12T11:29:00.000-06:003:19: You know the Bible is a true history? Really...3:19: You know the Bible is a true history? Really? That's amazing, because I've even read quotes by GA's that say otherwise. I'm glad you can allow your feelings to supercede established truth. I have not reached that point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com