tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post1536766363798853997..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: A Witness of Book of Mormon Authenticy from a Non-LDS Scholar: Translation of the Afrikaans VersionJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-65536416009575682382016-02-12T08:34:45.588-06:002016-02-12T08:34:45.588-06:00Hi everythingbeforeus,
I love Rough Stone Rolling...Hi everythingbeforeus,<br /><br />I love Rough Stone Rolling. Indeed, you did take some artistic license in your description:<br /><br />- It does not say that Harvey Whitlock was the first to be ordained to the high priesthood (josephsmithpapers.org confirms this)<br />- Hyrum was not surprised that Harvey was first (he wasn't the first) nor that Harvey was ordained to the high priesthood but rather that Harvey became possessed (who wouldn't be surprised - again, josephsmithpapers.org confirms this)<br /><br /><br />What did happen:<br /><br />- Elders were being ordained to the high priesthood<br />- Possessions by evil spirits happened<br />- People were surprised (including Hyrum)<br />- Heavenly visions also happened<br /><br /><br />Rough Stone Rolling and josephsmithpapers.org both agree.<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-49953723143705645742016-02-11T11:22:14.922-06:002016-02-11T11:22:14.922-06:00Steve,
Rough Stone Rolling. Pages 156-157. Bushma...Steve,<br /><br />Rough Stone Rolling. Pages 156-157. Bushman's source is Levi Hancock's diary. Also John Whitmer's writings. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-11373944142410657712016-02-11T09:40:56.134-06:002016-02-11T09:40:56.134-06:00Hi everythingbeforeus,
What are your references? ...Hi everythingbeforeus,<br /><br />What are your references? The josephsmithpapers.org relates this account:<br /><br />http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/?target=x6512<br /><br />Based off of the josephsmithpapers.org web site, you seem to have taken some artistic license in your description of the events.<br /><br />It also sounds like you expected the church to be restored fully formed, as we enjoy it now in its present form complete with the term Elder being associated with someone who has the Melchizedek Priesthood rather than a growing process.<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88712614901886771592016-02-11T07:07:06.492-06:002016-02-11T07:07:06.492-06:00ETBU,
Just FYI, your claim "Why do you follo...ETBU,<br /><br />Just FYI, your claim "Why do you follow the sacrament prayers as laid out by Moroni with utmost precision..." is not precisely correct. There is one word that is different in D&C 20, and it is the one that should be used.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-11960920654132956952016-02-10T11:05:23.854-06:002016-02-10T11:05:23.854-06:00I like the sudden change of topic. I think we'...I like the sudden change of topic. I think we've deviated far enough from the original post, so I will bow out here.Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23776331739752688622016-02-10T11:03:20.087-06:002016-02-10T11:03:20.087-06:00When Joseph Smith first talked about ordaining som...When Joseph Smith first talked about ordaining someone to "priesthood," it was in June of 1831 at a conference. He assembled some Elders to have them ordained to the "High Priesthood," which he later wrote as meaning the Melchizedek Priesthood. Yes...he was ordaining ELDERS to the Melchizedek Priesthood! <br /><br />Well, the first man he laid his hands on to ordain to Priesthood was, much to the shock of Hyrum Smith, who was present, suddenly overtaken by a demonic spirit. Joseph Smith cast out the demonic spirit, who then lept into another man. The possessions continued throughout the remainder of the day. <br /><br />Read your church history, folks. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18448247530364065212016-02-10T11:00:16.252-06:002016-02-10T11:00:16.252-06:00Why do you follow the sacrament prayers as laid ou...Why do you follow the sacrament prayers as laid out by Moroni with utmost precision, but you do not follow the pattern for ordaining priesthood leaders set forth by Moroni with the same precision?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-51289721514150178732016-02-10T10:53:18.002-06:002016-02-10T10:53:18.002-06:00I don't dispute that it doesn't say "...I don't dispute that it doesn't say "priesthood" in those particular verses. I'm only saying that there is a pretty clear connection. Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-42627859778597143472016-02-10T10:23:04.902-06:002016-02-10T10:23:04.902-06:00c). But it never says "priesthood."
d)....c). But it never says "priesthood."<br /><br />d). No Priesthood. Moroni 3 says that leaders were ordained, not by Priesthood, but by the power of the Holy Ghost: "And after this manner did they ordain priests and teachers, according to the gifts and callings of God unto men; and they <i>ordained them by the power of the Holy Ghost</i>, which was in them."<br /><br />No Priesthood, Ryan.<br /> <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-29157719133241855752016-02-10T09:59:05.666-06:002016-02-10T09:59:05.666-06:00Also, references c-e indicate that this "ordi...Also, references c-e indicate that this "ordination" (ie priesthood) were present after Christ's ascension.Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19876037376691176242016-02-10T09:57:45.238-06:002016-02-10T09:57:45.238-06:00Interesting take. I suppose you'll disagree, b...Interesting take. I suppose you'll disagree, but what I see is the following:<br /><br />a) in Alma 13, the priesthood is identified as being "without beginning of days or end of years," which seems sufficient to me to show that the priesthood would exist after the death of Christ<br /><br />b) Alma 13 also references those who received the priesthood as being "ordained" to that position<br /><br />c) In 3 Nephi, the Savior gives the disciples authority to baptize, and also says there will be someone "ordained" to administer the sacrament<br /><br />d) In 4 Nephi, there is discussion of those who are "ordained" in the stead of the disciples who had died.<br /><br />e) In Moroni, as you mention, we are given the specifics of how to prepare the sacrament, ordain others, etc. Although he does not use the word "priesthood," he does make clear that it is Elders and Priests who bless the sacrament, and prior to that he tells how to make someone a Priest. <br /><br />From all of that, it seems clear enough to me that the word "priesthood" was indeed in Joseph's vocabulary prior to the organization of the church, and that there is a connection between priesthood and authority to perform certain rites. You are welcome to disagree, but I hope you can at least see that the Mormon perspective is not unfounded.Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-44478333233615657122016-02-10T09:28:57.929-06:002016-02-10T09:28:57.929-06:00Until 1831.Until 1831.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10878723826635613532016-02-10T09:28:32.988-06:002016-02-10T09:28:32.988-06:00Let me clarify. The word Priesthood never shows up...Let me clarify. The word Priesthood never shows up in any Mormon source in reference to any power or authority after the death of Christ. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74242398822150652062016-02-10T09:25:12.462-06:002016-02-10T09:25:12.462-06:00down = donedown = doneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12960763242343270562016-02-10T09:24:41.839-06:002016-02-10T09:24:41.839-06:00Ryan,...what I meant was that he never used the wo...Ryan,...what I meant was that he never used the word to refer to any power or authority after the end of the Law of Moses. Even in Moroni when Moroni is telling us how to ordain Elders or bless the sacrament, he never says it is down by the power of Priesthood. It doesn't show up. Ever. Anywhere until 1831. Except in reference to the Law of Moses. Even Bushman points this out in Rough Stone Rolling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-29405689937288858562016-02-10T08:45:51.131-06:002016-02-10T08:45:51.131-06:00I would just like to point out that the word "...I would just like to point out that the word "priesthood" does appear in the Book of Mormon in at least 2 chapters: Alma 4 and Alma 13. So Joseph was definitely using the word by 1829, and there is some indication in the BoM that the Nephites had it.Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-5306377812642197862016-02-10T07:53:56.783-06:002016-02-10T07:53:56.783-06:00Anon...the official answer that I've read is t...Anon...the official answer that I've read is that Lehi didn't need a Levite because as a prophet, he had the Melchizedek Priesthood. Of course, no where does it suggest in the text that he had any Priesthood at all. Joseph Smith wasn't using the word Priesthood until 1831. The law of Moses set forth the requirements for only one high Priest at a time. This foreshadows the one high priest who was to come later and mediate the new covenant, namely Jesus Christ. From the point of view of the author of Hebrews, a Melchizedek Priesthood holder entering into the Holy of Holies to make an offering for sin would've been ludicrous if not downright blasphemous.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36469398895589681132016-02-09T23:40:28.561-06:002016-02-09T23:40:28.561-06:00Back to the question of lineage. If Lehi and Neph...Back to the question of lineage. If Lehi and Nephi were of the house of Joseph, how did they perform rites in the law of Moses without a Levite?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37085723078374792452016-02-09T21:13:38.836-06:002016-02-09T21:13:38.836-06:00So let me get this straight. . .
A Hebrew renders...So let me get this straight. . .<br /><br />A Hebrew renders his Hebrew thoughts in Egyptian on plates of gold. It's then translated from Egyptian to English, many times without the text in front of the translator. Next, another translator (who actually uses the English text), takes the English version and attempts to translate it to Afrikaans and finds it too difficult. He then translates English into Hebrew, then translates Hebrew to Afrikaans? Is the Afrikaans version of the Book of Mormon still "the most correct of any book on earth"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30537331778767913142016-02-09T10:15:43.114-06:002016-02-09T10:15:43.114-06:00What other intermediate languages did Mijnhart try...What other intermediate languages did Mijnhart try, besides Hebrew? If Hebrew was a language more different from both English and Afrikaans than any of his other options, then this would explain a less awkward result very simply. <br /><br />Translations between more dissimilar languages are always freer translations. The freer the translation, the more alternative renderings are available. The more alternative renderings from which to choose, the more chances to make an awkward text into something sensible.<br /><br />This isn't necessarily an explanation that would naturally strike a person who knew several languages and was trying out Hebrew. Mijnhart may well have been really impressed. Nonetheless the apparently wonderful coherency that he found in his Hebrew text may well have been a simple artifact.<br /><br />One has to think about such things.James Anglinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18266855639647700167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25009331976942189742016-02-08T21:52:56.618-06:002016-02-08T21:52:56.618-06:00It would stand to reason that an earlier Israelite...It would stand to reason that an earlier Israelite would know his lineage, but the events of the Book of Mormon take place after the 10 tribes (including Joseph) are lost. There is speculation that some of the dispersed tribes including the tribes of Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Ephraim, and Manasseh may have reintegrated into the Jewish group present in Jerusalem before its destruction. This could include descendants from the tribe of Joseph. It's also possible that Lehi wouldn't know his lineage before this if he were a culturally reassimilated Jew.<br /><br />That being said, it's also quite possible that all descendents of Joseph were dispersed by the Assyrians and this would be proof of a grave error in the Book of Mormon--both theories are possible so any conclusion drawn from either would be speculation.<br /><br />It is interesting to note that Nephi addresses why the lineage was not provided:<br /><br />1 And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in this part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these plates which I am writing; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my father; wherefore, I do not write it in this work.<br /><br />2 For it sufficeth me to say that we are descendants of Joseph.<br /><br />It sufficed him only to include the part of his lineage that would apply to the "two sticks" interpretation of the biblical passage:<br /><br />16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:<br /><br />17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.<br /><br />Another interesting note is that he identified with Joseph, not Ephraim or Manasseh, as many descendends would have done.<br /><br />As for Egyptian being a script and not a language, according to Nephi, he conveyed Jewish ideas through the Egyptian language: "Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians." I think a closer modern-day comparison might be using Chinese or Japanese characters to write phoenetic English words or idas. This would be very cumbersome and problematic. It would be interesting to know if Mr. Lindsay has come across evidence of other Hebrews writing using "Reformed Egyptian."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16268510729845781482016-02-08T15:28:26.773-06:002016-02-08T15:28:26.773-06:00I don't know...It's just that considering ...I don't know...It's just that considering the way the different tribes divided up the land amongst themselves, according to tribe, I would suspect that if you were a Jew, you'd know which tribe you came from. Kind of like if you are a citizen of the United State, you know which state you were born in. Or if you are a European, you know which nationality you are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32011533031113874482016-02-08T14:43:17.105-06:002016-02-08T14:43:17.105-06:00Why, do Jews memorize their lineage? Did each Jew...Why, do Jews memorize their lineage? Did each Jewish household have their own book of remembrance? Do your know your lineage? Memorized or written down? Why is it odd to get a book that has your lineage?<br /><br />Steve<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57426274434733822992016-02-08T11:50:51.911-06:002016-02-08T11:50:51.911-06:00Would a Jew really not have known his lineage? Would a Jew really not have known his lineage? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-72374846817548793432016-02-08T08:00:49.874-06:002016-02-08T08:00:49.874-06:00- Reformed Egyptian is a script, not a language so...- Reformed Egyptian is a script, not a language so it is analogous to using the Latin alphabet not for Latin but, maybe for, English....<br />- Nephi obtained the Brass Plates part of which was so that Lehi could ascertain his lineage. Lehi or Nephi just did not copy their lineage down but Lehi did verify that he was descended from Joseph.<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com