tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post1915472573157964320..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: The Words of Gad the Seer: Thoughts on a "Lost Book" Preserved by the Jews at Cochin, IndiaJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-69093804000179575402022-09-21T21:08:24.333-05:002022-09-21T21:08:24.333-05:00Thanks for the great input, Zosimus! Thanks for the great input, Zosimus! Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-917346523940322862022-04-06T07:45:30.160-05:002022-04-06T07:45:30.160-05:00The foil sample from Peru has 8 symbols on it (ima...The foil sample from Peru has 8 symbols on it (image at https://nephicode.blogspot.com/2020/06/cheeseman-artifacts-and-andean-peru.html). Are they writing or artwork? Not sure. Genuine or a forgery? Fair question. It is noted in Ray Matheny's work with the fraudulent Padilla plates from Mexico that the Padilla plates are almost pure gold, unlike the more reasonable mix of gold, silver, and copper in the Peruvian foil, and that the Padilla plates are extremely smooth as happens in modern manufacturing methods, in contrast to the rougher hammered surface of the Peruvian foil. See Ray T. Matheny, "An Analysis of the Padilla Gold Plates," <i>BYU Studies Quarterly</i> 19, no. 1 (1978): 21-40. The PDF is at https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/byusq/vol19/iss1/4/ and an HTML version is at http://www.bmaf.org/articles/padilla_plates__matheny. That doesn't mean the Peruvian sample is an authentic ancient product, or if ancient, that the symbols on it contain genuine writing. Have they even been dated? I'm not sure. <br /><br />Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10353755719280185202022-04-05T19:20:00.090-05:002022-04-05T19:20:00.090-05:00Fascinating. Thanks for the detailed information....Fascinating. Thanks for the detailed information. Will definitely buy the book. <br /><br />Robert Cheeseman, professor at BYU in the 1960s to ? and archeologist, was on a dig deep in Peru jungles in 1968 if recalling correctly. Many wonderful artifacts were found. A few plates of gold were found with writing on them. The Peru government gave permission for the plates to be replicated and the replica is on display at the BYU library. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-48084625709469856502022-04-04T23:37:36.302-05:002022-04-04T23:37:36.302-05:0092). The Mar Jacob (Thomas Cana) and the Tevalacar...92). The Mar Jacob (Thomas Cana) and the Tevalacara Plates mentioned above are regarded as lost (Joseph, Malabar Christians 32). We, however, incline to the following hypothesis: The measures given by Goes and Gouvea are rough estimates; the descrip- tion of Pero de Siqueira given after his return to Portugal and reproduced by Goes is perhaps partly incorrect as is his statement about de Sousa; the “translation” of the Jew, reproduced by Couto and Roz, is fantastical, giving one or other well or half understood word and for the rest the oral tradition of what the St. Thomas Christians thought the plates contained; and the Mar Jacob Plates are identical with the Tevalacara and these with the Quilon Turisa Plates IJ, described and partly deciphered in the Travan- core Archaeological Series (Trivandrum 1920) If 70-85 and belonging to the time of king Sthanu Ravi (end of 9th century). Of these Plates No. I is missing, II and III are in the old Syrian Christian Seminary of Kottayam (since Micaulay 1806), IV in the palace of the bishop of the Mar Thomas Syrian Christians at Tiruvallé. Plates II and III, written in Vatteluttu and Grantha letters are in Tamil and contain the donation of land by the King of Quilon to Maruvan Sapir Is), the builder of the Tarisâ Church at Quilon, and the concession of privileges to the Anjuvannam and Manigrimam communities. Plate IV gives the signatures in Pahlavi, Kufic and Hebrew. The text is “full of unintelligible words and phrases” and the signatures have only partly been deciphered The following dates agree in the Mar Jacob, Tevalacara and Quilon Plates, which we call shortly A, B and C, (an English translation of Couto’s and Koz’ text is given in the interesting monography of the Kerala Society Papers 4,189):<br /><br />John S. RobertsonJohn Robertsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11973487301463295866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19182015400322969912022-04-04T23:37:26.918-05:002022-04-04T23:37:26.918-05:00For what it's worth—footnote 69, p 23
Schurham...For what it's worth—footnote 69, p 23<br />Schurhammer's book, The Malabar Church and Rome during the early Portuguese period and before:<br /><br />()6 Much has been written about the Copperplates of Mar Jacob, also called the Thomas Cana Plates. (ves gives their description: “ Ha scriptura era Caldeu, Malabar, e Arabio. Estas taboas sao de metal fino, de palmo e meo cada hua de comprido, e quatro dedos de Jargo, scriptas dambalas bandas e infiadas pela banda de cima” (1,98). Then he gives a summary of the contents adding, that a Jew deciphered them with great difficulty and translated them into the Malabar tongue, from which they were translated into Portuguese and a copy sent to Portugal, but that he could not find it in the National Archives and that the original must still (1558) be in tle Factory of Cochin. Couto gives the text according to the Jew’s translation (12, 2, 5, 283-85) and says, that on his arrival at Cochin (1559) he still found the originals in the Factory, but that of late (he writes in 1603) they had disappeared (7, I. 12, 15’. Roz in 1604 gives the same text, somewhat fuller, “ fol- lowing a copy left in India, as the Franciscans had taken the originals to Portugal” (Relacao 86v-87v). But when the Copperplates of Mar Jacob disappeared, a “new set” was discovered in the possession of the Christians of Tevalacara near Quilon. Gouvea writing in 1603 deploring the loss of the former set tells us, how Archbishop Menezes in 1599 saw at Tevalacara a set of 3 plates, with writing on both sides, joined by a ring, 2 palms long and 4 fingers broad, containing the privileges of the Quilon Church, writ- ten in different letters and characters, Malavar, Canarin, Tamul and letters of Bisnagaa”’ (Jornada do Arcebispo de Goa D. Aleixo de Menezes, Coimbra 1606 1. I, c. 2). Roz adds, that the Plates were in the possession of the “ tarega ou rendeiro de Teualicare [tarega or tenant of Teualicare]” and that he, Roz, in 1601 had a translation made by cassanar Etymana, of which he gives a summary (Relagao 8cv). 1037 Plates dealing with the privileges of the Mani- gramam Christians are partly engraved on stone in Quilon (in the actual Jacobite Church: see T. K. Joseph, Malabar Christians and their ancient documents, Trivandrum 1929, App. VI!), In 1758 Plates are again mentioned in or near Quilon in the possession of schismatics (Germann, Die Kirche der Thomaschristen 228, Kerala Society Papers 4, 1 (continued)John Robertsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11973487301463295866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-59236624789307720502022-04-04T13:05:46.566-05:002022-04-04T13:05:46.566-05:00There's another reference I'd like to trac...There's another reference I'd like to track down: Schurhammer, G., 1963a. “Three Letters of Mar Jacob, Bishop of Malabar, 1503-1550”, in Schurhammer, G., ed., <i>Orientalia</i>, Rome, Institutum historicum Societas Iesu; Lisbon, Centro de Estudos Históricos Ultramarinos.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77487550429995542902022-04-04T12:25:03.022-05:002022-04-04T12:25:03.022-05:00The "Three Letters of Mar Jacob" are rep...The "Three Letters of Mar Jacob" are reproduced in Portuguese and translated to English at the side in Schurhammer's book, <i>The Malabar Church and Rome during the early Portuguese period and before</i>, with the mention of a copper plate found on p. 14. There is further discussion of this on pages 22-23 (esp. footnote 69), viewable at https://archive.org/details/malabarchurchrom00schu_0/page/22/mode/2up. The mention of a copper plate in the second Portuguese letter has "do que temos hua [dua?] <i>lamyna [lamina] de cobre asselada de sseu sselo</i>," with the given translation "of which we have a Copperplate sealed with his seal" (p. 14, emphasis original). Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-52599128458764029222022-04-04T11:53:44.869-05:002022-04-04T11:53:44.869-05:00Zosimus, thank you for that valuable information. ...Zosimus, thank you for that valuable information. A little information about the plates of Mar Jacob has been discussed by Georg Schurhammer in <i><a href="https://archive.org/details/malabarchurchrom00schu_0/page/22/mode/2up" rel="nofollow">The Malabar Church and Rome during the early Portuguese period and before</a></i> (Trichinopoly [the British India name for Tiruchirappalli city in Tamil Nadu], India: F.M. Ponnuswamy 1934), p. 22, available at https://archive.org/details/malabarchurchrom00schu_0/page/22/mode/2up. It discusses several plates, some now lost. Fascinating!Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13632466155870858992022-04-04T10:18:55.000-05:002022-04-04T10:18:55.000-05:00Interesting post. I just purchased a paperback ed...Interesting post. I just purchased a paperback edition.<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88124418566687066302022-04-03T23:35:51.475-05:002022-04-03T23:35:51.475-05:00As far as I can tell, the first western account of...As far as I can tell, the first western account of metal plates among the Jewish and Christian communities of Cochin comes from Damião de Góis in his "Three Letters of Mar Jacob". Mar Jacob, the Bishop of the Thomas Christians between 1543 and 1545 mentioned two copper plates with inscriptions in Pahlavi, Cushic (sic) and Hebrew script. These plates are unrelated to the chronicles of the Cochin Jews that were said to have been destroyed when the Portuguese burned down the synagogue in 1662 AD. This history was inexplicably called the <i>sefer ha yashar</i> or the Book of the Upright One or the Book of Jasher.<br /><br /><br />The elders of the Jewish community in Cochin had told Claudius Buchanan that they brought texts with them from Senna. It's unclear to me whether this is Sanaa in Yemen, or another Sena that is mentioned in the oral histories of other Jewish groups throughout the Indian Ocean, such as the Lemba of Zimbabwe.<br /><br />"The Lemba are a traditionally endogamous group speaking a variety of Bantu languages who live in a number of locations in southern Africa. They claim descent from Jews who came to Africa from “Sena.” “Sena” is variously identified by them as Sanaa in Yemen, Judea, Egypt, or Ethiopia. A previous study using Y-chromosome markers suggested both a Bantu and a Semitic contribution to the Lemba gene pool, a suggestion that is not inconsistent with Lemba oral tradition."<br /><br />https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707634399<br /><br />Buchanan was told that there were at least 65 Jewish settlements beyond Cochin, extending from India to China. I've been doing quite a lot of research on the metal plate traditions and shared mythologies through the trading ports of Cochin-China and the islands of the Indian Ocean. A lot to unpack there.RM Zosimusnoreply@blogger.com