tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post22688878239211502..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: DNA and the Book of Mormon: Rejecting an Absurd OversimplicationJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger91125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-79528827269028904412012-06-23T15:57:26.749-05:002012-06-23T15:57:26.749-05:00If critics claimed the absurd oversimplification a...If critics claimed the absurd oversimplification as Mormanity falsely suggests, then all they would do is test one indigenous population and call it quits. However, the mere fact they reviewed the data for multiple indigenous populations is prove positive they never claimed as Mormanity falsely suggests they did.<br /><br />Thanks to help of FAIR I came across this written by Simon Southerton in 2008, four years before this post by Mormanity. “They also set up the straw man that I am arguing that according to the Book of Mormon all American Indians are descended from Hebrews. I have never claimed this. The vanishing geography theory is utter desperation.”<a href="http://en.fairmormon.org/Criticism_of_Mormonism/Books/Losing_a_Lost_Tribe:_Native_Americans,_DNA,_and_the_Mormon_Church" rel="nofollow">link</a><br /><br />When I first pointed out Mormanity’s strawman above, Mormanity’s immediate response was to go to the opposite absurd oversimplification. He suggested critics should not dismiss Middle Eastern DNA of a single indigenous group as being due to European mixture. <a href="http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2012/01/dna-and-book-of-mormon-rejecting-absurd.html?showComment=1326325645079#c612491554198396466" rel="nofollow">link</a><br /><br />I agree with Mormanity. His oversimplications are indeed absurd.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57733338092036474082012-01-22T00:55:41.747-06:002012-01-22T00:55:41.747-06:00Openminded;
How come people will sometimes get di...Openminded;<br /><br /><i>How come people will sometimes get different answers by the same method?</i><br /><br />Prayer has *lots* of variables in terms of the outcome. In fact, I think they are way too many for humans to even comprehend and ths may be one reason we are not to judge others and their spirituality (which I do not find you doing). All in all, the spiritual truth is one that comes from a peace and contentment in both the ind and the heart. I've experienced moments of great comforting warmth in my entire body as well as a much for subtle, "yes, this s correct". But either way i think God communicates directly to one's mind and heart: to the entire "soul" of the person, if you will. The promptings of the Spirit are peaceful though they can be determined at times.<br /><br /><i>However, after reading the chapter of 3 Nephi 21, and skimming over the BoM up until Ether from there, it becomes clear that over 300 years pass by without this happening--and there's no mention at all of it happening anyways. And i think it's clear that this did not happen because the events laid out in 3 Nephi 21:15-19 especially didn't happen--it seems to be a prophetic threat of sorts, and the BoM never mentions those events ever again </i><br /><br />good points. but who said this had to have happened in the Book of Mormon times? My reading of said prophetic warning of cutting off the horses and chariots from the people would be to modern-day gentiles who will inhabit this land as "which is a choice land". I'm only speculating at the possibility that somewhere and sometime, even during some post Book of Mormon time if this happened then that could very well explain why there is little archeological evidence of horse in the Americas and none to show them used by a great civilization. But the lack of this evidence is hardly a "blunder" on Joseph Smith's part. The story ofthe Book of mormon itself offers very reasonable explanations as to why such little archeological evidence has popped up on the radar (so to speak).<br /><br /><i>Regardless, we can, at the very least, expect there to be no interference from God in this matter before roughly 400 AD. </i><br /><br />i agree but I again refer you to the fact that the mentioning of horses and chariots together with the direct implication that horses drew the chariot is mentioned only once and therefore it is very reasonable to conclude that such techinque was very limited. This includes knowledge and success in taming horses among the people. With such a limitation, this knowledge could easily be lost.<br /><br />Keep up the Book of Mormon reading, it's good for you. And don't forget that you are the son of the great divine being of all that is and He will listen to your prayers and answer them.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83960196207251679742012-01-22T00:54:08.452-06:002012-01-22T00:54:08.452-06:00Openminded;
There's no omniscience at play wi...Openminded;<br /><br /><i>There's no omniscience at play with Galileo's science, just as there isn't with criticisms about horses, chariots, and steel</i><br /><br />I agree. It is you who is assuming omnisicence in using science as a conclusive declaration against the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon; not the science itself. If you read the FAIR article, you'll see how horse fossils found are discarded as post-Columbian horses found unexpectidly without additional testing as to the dates of those fossils. It is not the science assumung omniscinence; but those who use science to make absolute conclusions. Science is such that it is always open for reinterpretation and for new, even contradictor, conclusions to emerge.<br /><br /><i>There just isn't evidence where there would need to be evidence. steel production, domestication of horses for chariots, the development of the chariot itself, and really these are just a handful of the items.</i><br /><br />actually, I think you laid out the bulk ofthe items right there. I already linked linguistic evidence for metal. If there were no metal production in ancient America, then why are words for steel/metal found in several Indian dialects? Products fo metals have been unearthed in the Americas and I think you may be assuming to much as for to the extant of their use. Beyond the Jaredites, there are only four mentions of "steel" in the Book of Mormon and the last menton was in Jarom 1:8 which is not too far into the Nephite Book of Mormon history. It's very possible that the techniques learned to develope tools of steel were lost early on in the Nephite history.<br /><br /><i>You say prayer is a better method than finding evidence, but come on.</i><br /><br />I mentioned prayer specifically to know for yourself that the Book of Mormon is the *true word fo God*. Here's what I said in support of that statement:<br /><br /><i><b>First and foremost, I know it is the *true word of God*. I do not hold up the Book of Mormon as a source for secular history of the Americas, despite the fact that I very much believe that the story of the Book of Mormon really did happen. As real as my blogging this post. As far as t being the true word of God, science will never prove it, nor disprove it. Even if somehow all archeological evidence needed to "prove" the authenticity of the Book of Mormon popped up tomorrow, I will not believe any more in it being the true word of God than I do now. Likewise, I will not believe any less in it being God's true word with an utter lack of scientific evidence. Fortunately, there is scientific evidence and it does cause me to view the Book of mormon differently whoever without my "knowledge" that it is the true word of God.</b></i><br /><br />By all means, use science to investigate the history of the Book of Mormon; just don't use it to conclude or not that it is the true word of God. To me, it does not matter what science says about the Book of Mormon in it's divine authenticity. What science says, will not affect my knowledge of the Book of Mormon's divine truth for it is not thby the power of man's science that I know the Book of Mormon to be God's true and divine word.<br /><br /><i>(New order mormons, I'm sure you may have heard of them. they have different routes to the same place, but some got there by praying). How come people will sometimes get different answers by the same method?</i><br /><br />I'm not sure who "new order mormons" are. Are you referring to the United Order? The division I see was based on people's choices. I think God is a God who will change things, includingHis commandments in part according to His children's desire to obey them. And that's biblical thogh you porbably weren't taught that in your Protestant days spiritually mourning the Mormons. ;>)Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88615585220637365802012-01-22T00:09:41.440-06:002012-01-22T00:09:41.440-06:00Openminded;
But this doesn't address the issu...Openminded;<br /><br /><i>But this doesn't address the issue that we can't stray away from what God knew would happen. </i><br /><br />Fine; but the fact ofthe matter is that we will get there based upon our own choices. It could very well be that neither you nor I are on currently on the course to get to where God knbows we will end up but we will get there and it will be based on the changes we choose to make. If I knew with absolute knowledge who will win the GOP primaries that will not change the fact that tit will become realized by choices many people make to get to tha result.<br /><br /><i>Do you see what I mean?</i><br /><br />I do. I used to ponder on this a lot growing up and placed into my head the precise possibility your are purpoting here. My reply to you is what I came up with. Do you see what i mean?Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3273264506395575562012-01-21T12:33:05.731-06:002012-01-21T12:33:05.731-06:00Also,
A sincere best of luck to you with your clas...Also,<br /><i>A sincere best of luck to you with your classes. Taking classes on top of your slready set schedule can be very taxing physically and mentally so thank you for taking time to post here.</i><br /><br />thanks! I used to have religious reasons for posting here, but it's hard to leave it alone even without a good reason to keep it up. I guess it's just enjoyable to debate something you've taken a lot of time to look into. but once again, thank youOpenmindednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-70742989319131281502012-01-21T12:30:16.718-06:002012-01-21T12:30:16.718-06:00Darren,
In a scientific sense that is true but wou...Darren,<br /><i>In a scientific sense that is true but would not that be true *only* if you're assuming omniscience in what science has to say? </i><br /><br />No, scientific omniscience isn't required here. Your next line about having to follow the will of science is interesting though.<br /><br />This is like the old Galileo vs. the church debate that existed back then over the earth being at the center of the universe (and all of heliocentrism, but you know what i mean). Galileo confirmed this was not the case. the evidence for heliocentrism just wasn't where it would have been if the design of the universe was heliocentric. <br /><br />There's no omniscience at play with Galileo's science, just as there isn't with criticisms about horses, chariots, and steel. There just isn't evidence where there would need to be evidence. steel production, domestication of horses for chariots, the development of the chariot itself, and really these are just a handful of the items. They're some of the top examples of anachronisms, which is why I discuss them, but there are plenty of others.<br /><br />You say prayer is a better method than finding evidence, but come on. Mormonism has an entire sub-sect that prayed and got a more liberal answer (New order mormons, I'm sure you may have heard of them. they have different routes to the same place, but some got there by praying). How come people will sometimes get different answers by the same method? You have a lot of sureness that you got the right answer via prayer, and they have just as much sureness that their answer from prayer is the right one. where's the credibility in such a method? prayer showed different people different "truths". how do you think this looks to an outsider.<br /><br />placing the uncertainty of prayer on top of claims in the BoM that are invalidated, and it starts looking a lot less like a God-inspired book.<br /><br /><i>So, it is reasoable to conlude that the knowledge and ability to tame them to the extent of being used by humans for transportation was very limited and thus could have been easily lost.</i><br /><br />First of all, if the verse you mentioned in 3 Nephi had come true, then the BoM has its own excuse for why your reasoning should be followed. However, after reading the chapter of 3 Nephi 21, and skimming over the BoM up until Ether from there, it becomes clear that over 300 years pass by without this happening--and there's no mention at all of it happening anyways. And i think it's clear that this did not happen because the events laid out in 3 Nephi 21:15-19 especially didn't happen--it seems to be a prophetic threat of sorts, and the BoM never mentions those events ever again (but does mention the Lamanites being cut off in Mormon 3). I'll admit, and let's be honest, it had every chance to do so. <br /><br />Regardless, we can, at the <i>very</i> least, expect there to be no interference from God in this matter before roughly 400 AD. <br /><br />There's still plenty of time for the horse, and the only reason they couldn't show up is if they died off. The BoM skips through 300 years after Jesus's prophetic warnings about cutting off the heads of horses and destroying chariots, and it only mentions the progression of religious belief and war during then. And after reading all the way through Mormon, there's nothing that would suggest the horses died off or that the people forgot about them. and with the kings living for a long time, it's hard to see why they would give up on being transported by horse and chariot, if they were indeed the only ones who moved by that method. the culture of taming horses doesn't have much room to mysteriously disappear for no reasonOpenmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-26780146827437787172012-01-21T11:19:06.337-06:002012-01-21T11:19:06.337-06:00"What about if God knew the best wayto lay ou..."What about if God knew the best wayto lay out the world so that his children, you and I among them, could make their own choices to follow him or not?"<br />I can see where you're getting at. That, even though he knows the choices we will make, they're still choices despite Him knowing.<br /><br />But this doesn't address the issue that we can't stray away from what God knew would happen. We have no choice in the matter but to follow the decisions he knew would happen. the only will we have is the one he set for us when he created the world, and us, the way he did. if he didn't know while creating us that the way he was creating us--and everything else--would lead to a single path for us, then we're at best just discovering the path laid out to us from god. but even then, we have no choice but to follow the path before us.<br /><br />Do you see what I mean?Openmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83105294176274438632012-01-21T03:01:58.898-06:002012-01-21T03:01:58.898-06:00Openminded;
You may be interested in Book Of Mor...Openminded; <br /><br />You may be interested in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyaiTImY_PM" rel="nofollow">Book Of Mormon Archeological Evidences</a>. It shows some pre-Columbian archeology whic might be interesting. But the best and most poignant message in this video is the very last one. ;>)Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9221389229594277912012-01-21T02:13:26.295-06:002012-01-21T02:13:26.295-06:00Openminded;
One more thing. A sincere best fo luc...Openminded;<br /><br />One more thing. A sincere best fo luck to you with your classes. Taking classes on top of your slready set schedule can be very taxing physically and mentally so thank you for taking time to post here. and do well in your classes. The long-term benefit from them will easily pay for the struggle you're currently in for taking them.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85022924161585356222012-01-21T02:10:39.626-06:002012-01-21T02:10:39.626-06:00Openminded;
thisis interesting. In 3 Nephi 21:14 ...Openminded;<br /><br />thisis interesting. In 3 Nephi 21:14 we read, <i>"14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;</i> This was referring to latter-day peoples inhabiting the Americas and but I wonder if this was not already literally done by the handf God pre-Columbian arrival.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30973488598422543682012-01-21T02:07:54.961-06:002012-01-21T02:07:54.961-06:00but the bottom line is, the context of mesoamerica...<i>but the bottom line is, the context of mesoamerica--which has absolutely no hint of steel production, chariot riding, or horses (and I'll respond to your horses in a bit!)--is one that invalidates the claims made in the BoM</i><br /><br />In a scientific since that is true but would not that be true *only* if you're assuming omniscience in what science has to say? If so, that is the most unscientific approach anyone can take regarding science. And, if you know everything that is was and will be about about science, wouldn't that mean that we no longer have any choice on what we do. ;>)<br /><br /><i>it shows that, at least in certain parts, there are falsehoods embedded in the text. confirmed anachronisms. confirmed.</i><br /><br />By using "confirmed', you're still assuming omniscience in science.<br /><br /><i>I say i can examine the text itself and determine that it is or isn't able to live in the historical timeframe it said it lives in</i><br /><br />That would be what man has concluded to be the timeframe; not what necessarily happened or how things happened. Prayer's a much better route to learn of God's truth. He's shown me His truth and He will do the same for you.<br /><br /><i>Any attempt to decouple horses and chariots just doesn't work here.</i><br /><br />That's a very valid point. While, strictly speaking, you can only infer that horses were used by man the story of the Book of Mormon does leave little to no doubt that they were used. One of the reasons I previously pointed to horses ony being used by inference is that there's very little mention at all of horses in reference of them being actually used. What I should have done, and this is poor blogging on my part for not having done this previously, was to do a search of the number of times of horses is mentioned in the Book of Mormon (I've never done that before) and the context of their existence.<br /><br />It is mentioned 13 times inthe Book of Mormon. Chronologically speaking, they are first mentioned in Ether as well as in 1 Nephi and all the way to 3 Nephi. I only found reference to being used for transportation in Alma. In the other parts they are refeencd as having been in the people's possessions as well as roaming around freely. Being in the people's possession did not necessarily mean they were ridden or used for work. They could very well have been a source for food. Even there there would be some degree of domestication but tothe degree to have them pull chariots is only mentioned in Alma as far as I could tell. So, it is reasoable to conlude that the knowledge and ability to tame them to the extent of being used by humans for transportation was very limited and thus could have been easily lost.<br /><br />Just an idea.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19812635365019356372012-01-21T01:37:19.236-06:002012-01-21T01:37:19.236-06:00but the thing is, you have no choice but to go alo...<i>but the thing is, you have no choice but to go along the path god already laid out. say, in the future, you decide not to reply because my own reply took so long as well (sorry, classes are starting back up again!). God knew that if he laid out the world in a certain way, this was going to happen. nothing could prevent it from occurring exactly as he knew it would.</i><br /><br />What about if God knew the best wayto lay out the world so that his children, you and I among them, could make their own choices to follow him or not? That God knows the outcome can simply mean He knows the choices we will make for ourselves. That God still allowing us in this existence, despite knowing the end results is very telling as to the importance of this existence in His eternal plan.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63476031237044470742012-01-20T14:35:19.870-06:002012-01-20T14:35:19.870-06:00Darren,
I understand you accept the BoM as truth f...Darren,<br />I understand you accept the BoM as truth for spiritual reasons. and that even, sometimes science/archaeology will provide a context for your beliefs to thrive in.<br /><br />but the bottom line is, the context of mesoamerica--which has absolutely no hint of steel production, chariot riding, or horses (and I'll respond to your horses in a bit!)--is one that <i>invalidates</i> the claims made in the BoM. it shows that, at least in certain parts, there are falsehoods embedded in the text. confirmed anachronisms. <i>confirmed</i>. and to me, they call into question whether Smith was inspired by God when he wrote the text. When you say you can pray about it--I say i can examine the text itself and determine that it is or isn't able to live in the historical timeframe it said it lives in. and I have every reason to consider it just folklore if it doesn't line up. <br /><br />Anyways, back to horses. <br /><br />you said:<br />"There's no mentin of horses being used inthe Book of Mormon; just that they were there. Only by inferencing could the reader conclude that horses were used. Specifically, they would likely have been used for the chariots though it does not necessarily have to be so."<br />Really quick, I'd like to point out that i said "And they were tamed for riding chariots, specifically" immediately after the part that you quoted me on :(<br /><br />alright, back to business. It is clear and discernibly obvious that the chariots were used for riding. let's take the verses in full and context:<br />Alma 18:9 "And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding <b>thy horses</b>. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare <b><i>his</i> horses and chariots</b>, and <b>conduct him forth to the land of Nephi</b>; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.<br /><br />Horses and chariots, known for carrying people lengthy distance, are being prepared. For one, that they are being prepared implies that there were areas designated for horses--which requires all the taming i mentioned--and that there was also chariot development (which requires wheels and axles, but I'll leave that part alone for now). <br /><br />Alma 18:12 makes it clear that the horses and chariots were indeed for the king and his servants: "And it came to pass that when Ammon had made ready the horses and the chariots <b>for the king and his servants</b>..."<br /><br />remembering, of course, that they were heading to a feast in the land of Nephi (we know they didn't go, but that's obviously beside the point). <br /><br />Any attempt to decouple horses and chariots just doesn't work here. it's clear from the text that their intent was to carry the king and his servants to the feast of nephi. what else were they supposed to do? no, really? what other alternatives are there for the presence of this situation that entirely points to horses carrying the king and his servants on chariots to the feast? <i>there is none</i>. and if you can't accept that for some reason, you must accept that they were at least "prepared"--for what other reason they would be than transport, which is essentially <i>none</i>--and that preparation of a horse is, at the very least, a <i>use</i> and a display of knowledge about horses that are tamed/domesticated enough for preparation by servants for whatever purpose you come up with--which can, again, only be for transportation with chariots.<br /><br />How exactly can you deny this?Openmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-40873726247446665742012-01-20T13:35:23.504-06:002012-01-20T13:35:23.504-06:00Pops,
"Or, the third alternative, that he exi...Pops,<br />"Or, the third alternative, that he exists outside of time."<br />does nothing to change the implication that everything is laid out at the beginning.<br /><br />Darren, <br />on the same subject--<br />"Despite knowing the outcome already it does not mean that the outcome was not the result of free choices made"<br />but the thing is, you have <i>no</i> choice but to go along the path god already laid out. say, in the future, you decide not to reply because my own reply took so long as well (sorry, classes are starting back up again!). God knew that if he laid out the world in a certain way, this was going to happen. nothing could prevent it from occurring exactly as he knew it would. <br /><br />You're not free to go outside the choices God knew you would make. there's no veering off of the plan he knowingly made by designing the world the way he did.Openmindednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-20730461646258275812012-01-18T15:26:26.709-06:002012-01-18T15:26:26.709-06:00Here's am excellent article of pre-Columbian h...Here's am excellent article of pre-Columbian horse remains. Start with about the last 6-7 paragraphs located at the bottom of the picture of Attila the Hun.<br /><br />http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/AshHorse/<br /><br />You can also probably find this article by going to FARMS and serching "Horses in the Book of Mormon"Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-62706647960267726852012-01-18T12:31:06.141-06:002012-01-18T12:31:06.141-06:00here's the problem: a God who knows absolutely...<i>here's the problem: a God who knows absolutely everything also knows the exact outcome of exactly every single interaction for every single everything that's out there. and when God created the world the way he did, he knew exactly what would happen as the result of the way he created the world. <br /><br />if one thing happened that he didn't expect, he loses his all-knowing status. so everything must go exactly as he knew it would when he created the earth the way he did. you were meant to be mormon. i was meant to be an atheist. he knew this would happen, and he knows if either of us will change our stance on it. </i><br /><br />Just because God knows the outcome of all things does not mean tha the outcome is not the result of free choice. I can stop at Walmart before going home from work, buy a milk chocolate Hersey's bar and a bag of broccoli, bring them both home and ask my kids which would they prchoose to eat and make an accrate prediction of the outcome. Yuo can as well. Despite knowing the outcome already it does not mean that the outcome was not the result of free choices made. I chose to make the purchases, bring them home, ask the kids, allow them to choose, and they would make their choice.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16138614408333016402012-01-18T12:25:39.137-06:002012-01-18T12:25:39.137-06:00Openminded;
(except for cement, I remember when t...Openminded;<br /><br /><i>(except for cement, I remember when that one was around. always thought it only applied to back when BoM geography was still considered to be in America, but I could be wrong)</i><br /><br />It could be but by and large during Joseph Smith's day, folks in the United States never viewed ancient American civilizations as erecting great buildings of cement on either of the American continents.<br /><br /><i>the invisible pink unicorn used to be a pretty popular meme with atheists</i><br /><br />Here's what I said (bold mine):<br /><br /><i>As you well know, even if today's anachrosnisms of steele and horses are never supported scientifically, it will not change my belief <b>that the Book of Mormon is the true word of God</b> for it is not by man's science that I konw it is true.</i><br /><br />First and foremost, I know it is the *true word of God*. I do not hold up the Book of Mormon as a source for secular history of the Americas, despite the fact that I very much believe that the story of the Book of Mormon really did happen. As real as my blogging this post. As far as t being the true word of God, science will never prove it, nor disprove it. Even if somehow all archeological evidence needed to "prove" the authenticity of the Book of Mormon popped up tomorrow, I will not believe any more in it being the true word of God than I do now. Likewise, I will not believe any less in it being God's true word with an utter lack of scientific evidence. Fortunately, there is scientific evidence and it does cause me to view the Book of mormon differently whoever without my "knowledge" that it is the true word of God.<br /><br /><i>furthermore, they would have to be tamed for riding. the implication of this being that taming a horse in a non-isolated society as the Nephites were supposedly in leaves evidence.</i><br /><br />There's no mentin of horses being used inthe Book of Mormon; just that they were there. Only by inferencing could the reader conclude that horses were used. Specifically, they would likely have been used for the chariots though it does not necessarily have to be so.<br /><br />The second link regarding horses speaks of ancient American roads ample enough for chrariots though there's no direct evidence of there being any chariots used.<br /><br /><i>God himself would have to cover up the evidence. destroy it. <br /></i><br /><br />That could very well be but I don't think *all* archeological evidence was altered by God despite the reports in the Book of Mormon of mountains being laid plain and plains being made into mountains by the undeniable power of God.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-84094127861040953422012-01-17T21:38:54.059-06:002012-01-17T21:38:54.059-06:00...there is no free agency--only time progressing ...<i>...there is no free agency--only time progressing God's predetermined plan for us.<br /><br />Or is He just not omniscient?</i><br /><br />Or, the third alternative, that he exists outside of time.Popsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25384570750382503142012-01-17T20:29:36.668-06:002012-01-17T20:29:36.668-06:00Pops,
"There's no question that an omnisc...Pops,<br />"There's no question that an omniscient God could instruct Jared's brother to put a bit of lime in each boat. It isn't really sufficient to simply assert "zero probability" when such an assertion defies logic."<br /><br />Your concept of God defies your <i>own</i> logic here. an omniscient God? come on, now.<br /><br />here's the problem: a God who knows absolutely everything also knows the exact outcome of exactly every single interaction for every single everything that's out there. and when God created the world the way he did, he knew exactly what would happen as the result of the way he created the world. <br /><br />if one thing happened that he didn't expect, he loses his all-knowing status. so everything must go exactly as he knew it would when he created the earth the way he did. you were meant to be mormon. i was meant to be an atheist. he knew this would happen, and he knows if either of us will change our stance on it. <br /><br />but there's only one way for things to happen in such a case: exactly as God knew it would. or else, God would definitely not be an all-knowing being.<br /><br />and so now we're stuck, because we have no say in what will happen with our lives. it was all laid out for us at the creation when God made the world. every last move can only go as God knew and planned for. <br /><br />there is no free agency--only time progressing God's predetermined plan for us.<br /><br />Or is He just not omniscient?Openmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-40130951758495468792012-01-17T20:18:06.361-06:002012-01-17T20:18:06.361-06:00Darren,
I'll have to look more into those anac...Darren,<br />I'll have to look more into those anachronisms you mentioned before i could go either way on them (except for cement, I remember when that one was around. always thought it only applied to back when BoM geography was still considered to be in America, but I could be wrong). <br /><br />you gave me the usual "...it does not mean that what is not found does not exist." which I agree with--to a certain extent. the extent to which you agree with it is likewise limited, else we could go on making fanciful claims about anything. the invisible pink unicorn used to be a pretty popular meme with atheists (just prove it doesn't exist!).<br /><br />but this is archaeology, and the argument against the BoM is more sophisticated than "there aren't any horse bones" or "then why don't we see steel swords laying around?"<br /><br />The issue here is that entire economies pop up around these things. Horses--do you realize how much of an advantage they are to a civilization? furthermore, they would have to be tamed for riding. the implication of this being that taming a horse in a non-isolated society as the Nephites were supposedly in leaves evidence. And they were tamed for riding chariots, specifically. it's hard not to mention one without the other because they show up together in the BoM multiple times. furthermore, chariots require things such as wheels. and axles. and proper terrain to be ridden upon. <br /><br />That's just a weak summary of this anachronism, but the one for steel is similar: what is required to produce steel, as well as what the production of it leaves behind, is more than just steel swords and such.<br /><br />These anachronisms are so powerful that truly the only way to avoid them is to say God tampered with the evidence. he made it disappear. evidence for steel blacksmithery and the economies built up behind horses who can pull chariots is something too prevalent to be passed up due to the language used in the BoM to describe their rather large presence.<br /><br />God himself would have to cover up the evidence. destroy it. <br /><br />the same position is taken by people who support some really crazy religious theories. i hate to bring up the YEC again, but they're the perfect example of this (in reverse-form, really. planting instead of destroying).Openmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73584050041840452202012-01-16T21:48:08.956-06:002012-01-16T21:48:08.956-06:00No response. I see, you were only interested in ma...<i>No response. I see, you were only interested in making unfounded, hit-and- run attacks. Such is the way of the frustrated, when they cannot counter a truth they attack its bearer.</i><br /><br />Truth? Where? Are you saying your opinion is truth?Anonymous Trollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45632969026663097182012-01-16T21:41:54.564-06:002012-01-16T21:41:54.564-06:00@Openminded:
...there is zero chance for this to ...@Openminded:<br /><br /><i>...there is zero chance for this to have happened...</i><br /><br />If you're talking about the suffocation problem, you need to provide some reasoning. There's no question that people can survive in a sealed vessel, provided the length of time without access to fresh air isn't too long. There's no question that using lime as a CO2 scrubber would extend the time. There's no question that an omniscient God could instruct Jared's brother to put a bit of lime in each boat. It isn't really sufficient to simply assert "zero probability" when such an assertion defies logic.Popsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85970335283651066302012-01-16T16:59:18.827-06:002012-01-16T16:59:18.827-06:00openminded;
It seemed like a laughable mistake.Bu...openminded;<br /><br /><i>It seemed like a laughable mistake.But, as revealed in "The Case for Christ" (google it?) this city was eventually discovered.<br />The Evvie community took it as a miracle! So much criticism over this issue, and they finally found that city.</i><br /><br />first and foremost, you just made an argument that since archeology has not found something, it does not mean that what is not found does not exist. There's a similar discovery of Tulum in Mesoamerica which has a temple, "after the manner of Solomon" which depicts a "descensding God" who is the beard of life and the God of all gods. At onep lace at that site he stands between two other deities, to t his left is filled (corporeal) and tothe right is nothing (non-corporeal). In Mormon theology the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones but the Holy Spirit has no body of flesh and bone. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_duUIlMdKY" rel="nofollow">Book of Mormon Evidence and Christ in America: The City of Tulum </a><br /><br /><i>But now that the argument settled and the emotions calmed down, we realize that geography in no way means the story is true--regardless of how much of a (documented) relief it was to see a powerful anti-biblical argument laid to rest.</i><br /><br />Not only that but i say that no science can show that the stories of the Bible, or Book of mormon are true. Especially the ones with direct divine connection. There's a divine source for truth confirmation and that is God's Holy Spirit; not man's science.<br /><br /><i>I wish Jeff would have a message board for us to debate issues, but honestly, I enjoy this community as it is anyways. Despite our differences in beliefs and approaches, I still look forward to our encounters.<br /><br />Goodnight from Texas!</i><br /><br />Thus far I enjoy this community and our encounters as well. Do you live in Texas too?Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-447547358038382072012-01-16T16:38:20.714-06:002012-01-16T16:38:20.714-06:00(continued)
Metals in The Book of Mormon is a FAI...(continued)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=l6Cp5mvCvA8" rel="nofollow">Metals in The Book of Mormon</a> is a FAIRLDS video which shows linguistic evidence of metalurgy in ancient American civilizations. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTDndF5dcjI&feature=related" rel="nofollow">Horses and The Book of Mormon</a> (Also a FAIR video) speaks about horse fossils disvocered "at the right levels" which seems to me arguing for the right time period to place them within the Book of Mormon story. The video also speaks about radiocarbon dating horse fossils found in the Americas to around the time of Christ. The video also mentions pre-Colombian but post Book of Mormon discovery of horse remains. That strikes at the heart ofthe argument that Europeans brought over horses.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21512070946226535992012-01-16T16:27:19.283-06:002012-01-16T16:27:19.283-06:00Openminded;
There are some big anachronisms, such...Openminded;<br /><br /><i>There are some big anachronisms, such as steel, grapes and wine, and horses + chariots that, as time progresses, become ever more hopeless.</i><br /><br />You correctly identify what are today anachronisms to be answered but the number of anachronisms has shrunk since the publication of the Book of Mormon. One of them is elephants. While today there is not scietific support for elephants being used among ancient [Mesoamerican] Indians during the given time of the Jaredites, there have been discovered gylphs of elephants as well as figurines in Mesoamerica. Cement also used to be considered an anachronism but today it is abundantly clear that ancient Mesoamericans used cement. Great temples being erected is also a modern-day conclusion among ancient Mesoamerican Indian civilizations. This too was once considered an anachronism. <br /><br />As you well know, even if today's anachrosnisms of steele and horses are never supported scientifically, it will not change my belief that the Book of Mormon is the true word of God for it is not by man's science that I konw it is true. I fuly support archeological efforts to uncover ancient American civilizations and the discoveries are fascinating.<br /><br />There is a string of videos available to view known as "Evidence of the Book of Mormon". I'll give you a couple which may strike your interest.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLK1aeUSzEY" rel="nofollow">Iron Ore - Book of Mormon Evidence </a> This deals with tarcheological evidence of iron being used in the Arabian Penninsula to make tools. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aaoi39RawU" rel="nofollow">Metal and Metallurgy - The Mines of Timna - Book of Mormon Evidence</a>. This shows how metalurgy could very well have been developed. Being a blacksmith is a very specialized trade and so few would know its details and this video offers plausible evidence of how Nephi apprenticed in metalurgy.<br /><br />In order to avoid getting this post thrusted into moderation, i'll make a separate post with a couple more links.Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12117356557847616816noreply@blogger.com