tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post2687951535413327946..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: A Surprising Issue in Presidential Politics: Do Mormons Believe Satan Is the Brother of Jesus Christ??Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger293125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83227591804898605182022-03-20T07:02:19.180-05:002022-03-20T07:02:19.180-05:00Technology yes they do I'm ex-mormon and that&...Technology yes they do I'm ex-mormon and that's what we are told as kids cause Satan's or lucifer's father is God just like all the others angels <br />Jesus was his older brother better yet Jesus didn't even go by the name Jesus his real name started with a y and that's just that also if Jesus was ever in heaven if heaven even existed at all would Satan's or lucifers name even be lucifer or Satan? It's a mythological place I don't think heaven has a direct language Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-72813326692044984782008-02-28T10:13:00.000-06:002008-02-28T10:13:00.000-06:00Hi Jeff,I appreciate your input and I also will re...Hi Jeff,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your input and I also will read the link that you made in your last comment.<BR/><BR/>I am just disappointed to hear that you back all those that have commented against the biblical viewpoints that I have raised.<BR/><BR/>After you gave me your timely reminder about spirit entities (all of which I agree with entirely and acknowledge appropriately), don't you think that there are realms that as human beings we are seperated from for a very particular reason?<BR/><BR/>Could it be that it is God that wants us to follow Him through demonstration of our Faith as opposed to being influenced by the forces of evil, which are the demonic element of our world and also the temporary self-appointed rulers led by satan ? <BR/><BR/>Is it not this life changing belief in Jesus that secures our salvation in our lifetime here ? If it is something that we get a second chance at, then why not a third chance or a nth chance ? Why does Jesus make such a point about the parables of the lost sheep, the prodigal son, the sower who went to sow for example. No further mention is made about the shoots that were strangled or withered and died. No second chances there? The emphasis is always about the living who are lost and then found, continuing to grow in Jesus. This is the emphasis and nowhere does Jesus state that the Gospel message is possible after death. You could argue of course over the Rich Man and Lazarus. Again this is only a parable - a story to illustrate a message to the pharisees and the saducees about a topic that they argued over. The key message to this group wasn't about the state of the dead (if so then how can a finger stretch over a gulf - impossible , so it can only be figurative) it was a rebuke that they had Moses and the prophets, but still they did not recognise Jesus as Messiah and would still not accept even if there was a resurrection. <BR/><BR/>My major concern is how your doctrine over the 'spirits in prison' can be taken out by part of a complete sentence stretching over 2 or 3 verses ? The whole sentence denotes the place, the time and how. I can not see how you and the LDS movement accuse most of Christendom about accepting false translations or corrupted / tampered writings of the Bible, yet this passage as one of the latter books to be written in Greek would have probably more cross referenced letters than some of the Hebrew OT manuscripts. I don't see how your accusations can be levied without returning the accusations over to you for your denominational interpretation (out of context) for this passage of scripture?<BR/><BR/>You are right - I was getting tired anyway of this thread. I am willing to explore new ideas but not when it is from a blatant misrepresentation. Maybe I will start up my own blog - would you care to visit (honourable guest?)after I get it going ?<BR/><BR/>Teranno4x4Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-35743340317517821072008-02-24T22:45:00.000-06:002008-02-24T22:45:00.000-06:00Jeff, sorry if I messed up your blog and turning i...Jeff, sorry if I messed up your blog and turning it into a chat room with T4x4 or NM but it is hard to talk with Mormons about differing views because of their narrow view of different topics. Each time you post gospel topics I learn new things from both LDS and members of differing faiths. As it relates to you statements on spirits, I have never understood why any good Christians would be apposed to Christ sharing the gospel with all of Gods children regardless of how He did it. Again I apologise for throwing out to many barbs or turning your blog into an high priest meeting but it is usually to get deeper into their feeling and thoughts on a subject and I am no Jeff Lindsay when it comes to how good you are at getting to the heart of a topic. Thanks again for your web page and I have learned a thousand new things from it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-11500218391243151472008-02-24T15:29:00.000-06:002008-02-24T15:29:00.000-06:00Boy, I've let this detour go on way too long. Tera...Boy, I've let this detour go on way too long. Teranno, you've made your point that you think the spirit doesn't persist. Others have ably demonstrated, in my opinion, that the concept does not fit the Bible. The persistent consciousness of the dead is a topic discussed at <A HREF="http://www.jefflindsay.com/thedead.html" REL="nofollow">www.jefflindsay.com/thedead.html</A>, if you're interested in more. <BR/><BR/>I would also remind you that spirits are real entities that can think, believe, gain knowledge, etc. Just as there are unclean spirits that Christ had to cast out (Matt. 10:6, 12:43, Mark 6:7, etc.), there are clean spirits - even angels, ministering spirits (Heb. 1:7,14). <BR/><BR/>The human spirit has a form like our body. For example, the disciples mistook the form of Christ for a spirit when he was walking across the water (Matt. 14:26). Christ corrected them by letting them know it was actually him. If there is no such thing as a living, unembodied spirit with human form, this would have been a good time to correct such errant doctrine. Christ made no such correction, and apparently never taught anything against that doctrine because after His Resurrection, they again mistook Him for a spirit. In Luke 24, when Christ appeared to his disciples after His death, these leading experts on Christian doctrine initially thought they were seeing the spirit of Christ. He corrected them by letting them touch Him, explaining that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39). How else can we take this but as evidence for the reality of a human spirit with human form? But now Christ's spirit and body were reunited in a glorious, resurrected body. <BR/><BR/>1 Peter 3:18-20 seems pretty clear that Christ after being put to death "preached unto the spirits in prison." Christ did the preaching: "he went and preached to the spirits in prison." The argument that this refers to living souls metaphorically in the prison of sin back in the days of Noah and that Noah did the preaching, on behalf of Christ in the future, is wresting the scriptures mightily. And it was the spirits of humans that were being preached to in prison - not living bodies, not life forces, but spirits. Human spirits who could hear and respond to the preaching. <BR/><BR/>But we've heard your arguments on this many times. I disagree, but you are free to keep repeating them and expounding about your viewpoint, but that's enough for this thread. I really think that you would be wise to get your own blog and pick topics you enjoy.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57877340113178948872008-02-23T23:11:00.000-06:002008-02-23T23:11:00.000-06:00I have come to the conclusion that you are right, ...I have come to the conclusion that you are right, there is no spirit or soul that leaves the body at death because you like most of the Christian world condemns all those that do not get a chance to hear about Jesus Christ will be sent to hell. Now I understand why you appose the scriptures that Christ would have the gospel preached to all of Gods children. It give you a bigger piece of the heavenly pieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-72076897578573901352008-02-23T09:27:00.000-06:002008-02-23T09:27:00.000-06:00"Darkness in the Bible represents a seperation fro..."Darkness in the Bible represents a seperation from God. Here God is stating as fact that it is only the living that can be brought out of that darkness. Once a man has passed away, there is no hope of changing anything - so where is the so called 'prison'? Isaiah 42 defines this as bringing living people out of spiritual 'darkness'. This is the spirit prison. It is a motion of character changing proportions to bring people back to a harmony with God and living in His ways and not in their dark prisons."<BR/><BR/><BR/>The New Testiment states Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. You can try to spin it any way you want but it will not change what is says. It only fits your version if there is on spirit that leaves the body upon death only air and not Gods breath.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75322943307999353912008-02-23T08:08:00.000-06:002008-02-23T08:08:00.000-06:00"Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the p..."Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and ""' if he be in sins""", """they shall be forgiven him"""" (James 5:14-15)."<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>*"The other apocryphal examples that you gave are what gives basis to the catholic concept of 'purgatory' which is a similar doctrine to the 'spirit prison' idea."<BR/><BR/>It could have been that "spirit prison" developed into "purgatory" I don't know but I can see how it could change over time but this does not mean that the concept of Christ preaching to those spirit in prison is incorrect or not biblical. I am not Catholic so I can not answer for them.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>*"It was on this basis that the priests, bishops and cardinals were able to extend the supply of their 'indulgences' to ease the conscience for the individual's state after death."<BR/><BR/>Again I am not Catholic and this is a different subject. You will need to get on a Catholic blog., ask Catholic Defender or call the Pope or your local Priest.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>*"There are obviously grave misgivings about these concepts which is only further cut open by the text on priests in Hebrews 10:11<BR/>Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins." <BR/><BR/>This scripture could be talking about the Old or New testament priesthood. But the following scripture supports the New Testament priesthood doctrine.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him" (James 5:14-15)."<BR/><BR/>*"If this is the case then why does the catholic church continue to allow priests the right to offer their congregation the 'confessional' ? Is it that the whole basis and foundation of the fathers was ultimately also corrupt? What mortal man has the right to forgive sins or to grant certain levels of peace in the sold 'indulgences' ?"<BR/><BR/>The scriptures talks about the need to confess, although I am sure you disagree with the way the Catholics do it. I have no idea about the corrupt statement and the selling of indulgences, they are not of the best practices but they too may have gotten of track. I wonder if they will be forgiven of selling indulgences? Mortal man has the right to forgive sins refer to James 5:14-15 above. I know this was a shocker to me to. That a man with the priesthood of Jesus Christ could have any part in helping those caught up in sin be forgiven. That is just beyond, you know, it just ain't right, it just ain't fair that Christ would want His humble followers of the priesthood help those mortal men to throw off the evil burden of sin. That is outrageous and we must put a stop to it right now. <BR/><BR/>*"If you are trying to link your LDS faith to that of the early catholic denomination then you really are grasping at straws as to the authority of the church. A church that united paganism with Christianity to appease the citizenship and then flaunted many pagan rituals in the name of Christianity. Do you also acknowledge all of the saints and holy figures like Christopher, Fatima and ultimately Mary ? "<BR/><BR/>As a matter of fact our LDS faith stands on present day revelation and not on the bible and early church fathers. Normally when you get tired of us bearing our testimony and inviting you to read, study and pray; then when you demand to know if it is biblical or where do we have any historical or archeology support for any of our wacky ideas we then dust of those old church fathers and other archeological finds to show that the early church was just as wacky as us.<BR/><BR/>*"If not, then why acknowledge their early writings, which are just as dangerous in their teachings?" <BR/><BR/>Danger! Danger! Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson! <BR/><BR/>If my Catholic friends can bring some comfort to those they come in contact with that have been burdened with sin then I don't much care how they help them. To be honest I do not know what goes on inside of a Catholic confessional other than the undignified way they have be portrayed on TV.<BR/><BR/>Having said all of this, I do not know about the forgiving of sins but I have worked with some people that have had the anguish of a dammed soul for the wrongs they had committed and although they felt that Christ had forgiven them and had the power to wash away their sins they did not know if they could ever forgive themselves. Then after much fasting, prayers and priesthood blessings we felt they could start on the road to a better life. So I guess what I am saying is that although I don't have any power of myself to forgive sins I know that the saving power of The Christ does have the power to heal a tortured soul and this was the most humbling experiences of my life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12367273576262366832008-02-23T03:32:00.000-06:002008-02-23T03:32:00.000-06:00"To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoner..."To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." <BR/><BR/>I do not think you can honestly say if the author is talking about the living or the dead in this scripture and I am not sure it matters or disproves that Christ preaching to those spirits in the watchtower (prison) is incorrect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-68145361168022020072008-02-23T01:34:00.000-06:002008-02-23T01:34:00.000-06:00"Darkness in the Bible represents a seperation fro..."Darkness in the Bible represents a seperation from God. Here God is stating as fact that it is only the living that can be brought out of that darkness."<BR/><BR/><BR/>If you are a living spirit or soul the and you are living in darkness then your spirit is seperated for God and needs to be brought back to God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3349228688174843502008-02-23T01:30:00.000-06:002008-02-23T01:30:00.000-06:00"I will accept Truth if it is Bible based. If not ..."I will accept Truth if it is Bible based. If not then it is no longer Truth but man-made fiction and should be treated with scepticism."<BR/><BR/>It state in the bible that not all that happend is in the bible so if it those items are found you would reject them. Not real smart but very biblical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30683723898801957692008-02-23T01:26:00.000-06:002008-02-23T01:26:00.000-06:00"Evolution for example is one of the most corrupt ..."Evolution for example is one of the most corrupt forms of the beginning of our existence on this planet that is perpetrated by nearly all scientific 'experts' and yet they could not be farther from the Truth."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Evolution could be correct on some levels but in error in others. Just because it does not fit the six days of creation view does not mean that it is wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83849140460660722362008-02-23T01:21:00.000-06:002008-02-23T01:21:00.000-06:00"Is science absolute - or should we also be scepti..."Is science absolute - or should we also be sceptical "<BR/><BR/>You are the one that asked for some science facts. Why ask if they are not important to you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14166367079039297272008-02-23T01:19:00.000-06:002008-02-23T01:19:00.000-06:00"Because you worship the bible you will find it ha..."Because you worship the bible you will find it hard to ever come to a knowledge or find more truth."<BR/><BR/><BR/>This is just to point out that if you are just stuck on the bible it does not get you very far. Other studies are required to better understand what the bible is trying to get across to the reader.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80412870163038282122008-02-23T01:15:00.000-06:002008-02-23T01:15:00.000-06:00"apocryphal writings"These writings are studied by..."apocryphal writings"<BR/><BR/>These writings are studied by scholars to better understand the mind set, culture, and translations not to establish doctrine. The whole point is that you cannot just read the bible and draw all of you conclusions. The total bible was developed by experts that tryed the best they could to understand what the author was trying to get across to the reader of the orginal documents. At time they may have introduce their views in the wording of the traslation. This why studying the apocryphal writings become important.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-79992485142837236312008-02-22T23:28:00.000-06:002008-02-22T23:28:00.000-06:00"I accept the Truth that when a person dies that t..."I accept the Truth that when a person dies that their ruach returns back to the God that first gave it."<BR/><BR/>Now we would need to define what does ruach mean? For you it is breath for me it is a spirit or soul that is the total make up of what we have become. Other why judge us if we are just breath?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76124155638878843092008-02-22T23:23:00.000-06:002008-02-22T23:23:00.000-06:00"I accept all Bible truth - show me another Bible ..."I accept all Bible truth - show me another Bible example of 'spirit prison' please....?"<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>But I am to believe what the Scriptures tell me, and here is a Scripture that tells me that the dead were evangelised (that is the word used by Peter at 4:6; it is the same word he uses in 1:12 & 25) by Christ. The statement in Hebrews 9:27, "It is appointed unto men once to die and after that comes judgment," is not a sand -alone pronouncement the way it is usually quoted.<BR/>Confusion has arisen because attention has been given to the first half of the statement whilst ignoring the second.<BR/><BR/>i. One commentator makes much of the fact that the word Peter uses in 3:19 for "preached" is a Greek word which means that Christ "made an "announcement" to spirits in prison, and draws the conclusion that all His announcement did was fix even more firmly the condemnation under which they stood. But this ignores the fact that the word Peter uses at 4:6 is the Greek word that means "evangelised," as in 1:12 & 25. The word is never used of the announcement of doom.. Christ evangelised the dead. There is no getting round that.<BR/><BR/>ii. Some maintain that by "the dead" in that verse, Peter meant those who were "spiritually dead" while they still lived. The Gospel was preached to them during their lifetime with a view to their regeneration, but they died without responding.<BR/><BR/>But this is to ignore completely the simple fact that in v. 5 Peter has just defined the dead he has in mind: "Christ stands ready to judge the living and the dead ..." There can be no doubt at all that in that phrase he means the living and the literally dead (as distinct simply from the living), and Peter cannot be made to mean by the same word spoken twice in the same breath two entirely different things.<BR/><BR/>iii. Again it is said that 3:20 tells us that those to whom Christ preached were "the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey in the days of Noah," and it is of them only that he speaks. I do not see Peter's words that way, for by the time he comes to 4:5 he has broadened his own definition to include all the dead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76763630392077394762008-02-22T23:17:00.000-06:002008-02-22T23:17:00.000-06:00"If so, why should my denomination cloud your view..."If so, why should my denomination cloud your view of my belief."<BR/><BR/>I have respect for what ever religion you are and for you if you do your best to follow it's teaching. This discussion has been about how do we try and get to what did the author of a scripture mean at the time that person spoke it or commited it to paper. Why are there differing views.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14556002510450397172008-02-22T21:05:00.000-06:002008-02-22T21:05:00.000-06:00"watchtower"I like the translation watchtower bett..."watchtower"<BR/><BR/><BR/>I like the translation watchtower better than prison because it gives the impression that they were waiting for The Christ and His salvation to be able to return to Our Heavenly Father.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19327101557870015132008-02-22T21:02:00.000-06:002008-02-22T21:02:00.000-06:00"When does a baby really have life - when it is gr..."When does a baby really have life - when it is growing in the womb or when it breathes for the first time ?"<BR/><BR/><BR/>In the mothers womb it is breathing just through it mother this is why you breath of life leaving and returning to God is not bibical. What make the baby is the breath of God, the soul, the spirit. Returning to God just means to His place of rest not just heaven. The watchtower is just another translation problem and how translations are difficult and important. It go to what did the person have in mind that wrote the orginal words. When translating they do the best they can.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31338689744531523422008-02-22T08:42:00.000-06:002008-02-22T08:42:00.000-06:00BTW - what does 'watchtower' have to do with the p...BTW - what does 'watchtower' have to do with the price of fish ? <BR/><BR/>Why did you mention this word - is it another stab that I am JW - if so - you are wrong ,,,, again! Keep guessing.... <BR/><BR/>If so, why should my denomination cloud your view of my belief. Why do you not accept the verses as presented facts? Could it be that you take them out of context in a distorted way that was not originally meant ... ?Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83764069660264158132008-02-22T08:39:00.000-06:002008-02-22T08:39:00.000-06:00I accept all Bible truth - show me another Bible e...I accept all Bible truth - show me another Bible example of 'spirit prison' please....?<BR/><BR/>I accept the Truth that when a person dies that their ruach returns back to the God that first gave it. When does a baby really have life - when it is growing in the womb or when it breathes for the first time ? This is the age-old scientific argument that is still being fought by the anti-abotion lobbyists. Personally, I am against abotion in the majority of cases, but I will not be convinced either way with an absolute minsdset, due to the varying degree of clinical problems that are presented.<BR/><BR/>Is science absolute - or should we also be sceptical as improvements especially in technology are constantly forcing changes? Are scientific 'experts' always right ? What is science's opinion on the topic of sin ?<BR/><BR/>You see there are always areas which do not tally between Faith and science and ultimately one must give way to the other. In terms of learning one does not always have to believe in the tangible facts. That is what Jesus told to Thomas who doubted His resurrection. But to take non-tangible facts that have been written by mankind - as man-thoughts, then this is no more than fiction.<BR/><BR/>I measure the words of God as written by the prophet Isaiah as a greater evidence than anything that you can show me in the apocryphal writings. Sorry - but again God wins. <BR/><BR/>Elijah one prophet vs many prophets on mount Carmel. Much drama - God wins. Why, because He is Truth and no error is found in Him. (notice that I did not say Biblical translation - I stated God)!Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74138050305929596982008-02-22T07:43:00.000-06:002008-02-22T07:43:00.000-06:00T4x4 said:"I will accept Truth if it is Bible bas...T4x4 said:<BR/><BR/>"I will accept Truth if it is Bible based."<BR/><BR/>You just can't deal with the fact that even when your own bible states that Christ went to preach to spirits in prision (watchtower) and that God's breath leaves man it returns to God's care. You do everything to support a Truth other that what the bible clearly states. I knew you would not except any science, I just throught that in there for fun.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27946987326532612782008-02-22T05:29:00.000-06:002008-02-22T05:29:00.000-06:00The other apocryphal examples that you gave are wh...The other apocryphal examples that you gave are what gives basis to the catholic concept of 'purgatory' which is a similar doctrine to the 'spirit prison' idea.<BR/><BR/>It was on this basis that the priests, bishops and cardinals were able to extend the supply of their 'indulgences' to ease the conscience for the individual's state after death.<BR/><BR/>There are obviously grave misgvings about these concepts which is only further cut open by the text on priests in Hebrews 10:11 <BR/><I>Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.</I> <BR/><BR/>If this is the case then why does the catholic church continue to allow priests the right to offer their congregation the 'confessional' ? Is it that the whole basis and foundation of the fathers was ultimately also corrupt? What mortal man has the right to forgive sins or to grant certain levels of peace in the sold 'indulgences' ?<BR/><BR/>If you are trying to link your LDS faith to that of the early catholic denomination then you really are grasping at straws as to the authority of the church. A church that united paganism with Christianity to appease the citizenship and then flaunted many pagan rituals in the name of Christianity. Do you also acknowledge all of the saints and holy figures like Christopher, Fatima and ultimately Mary ? <BR/><BR/>If not, then why acknowldge their early writings, which are just as dangerous in their teachings?Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-8952158139482427152008-02-22T05:07:00.000-06:002008-02-22T05:07:00.000-06:00Because you worship the bible you will find it har...<I>Because you worship the bible you will find it hard to ever come to a knowledge or find more truth.<BR/><BR/>You ask but now you no longer seek then you return to find all answers in the bible. If the bible had all the answers then there would be no need for science or education.<BR/><BR/>This is why you will find it hard to except any more truth than what is found in the bible.<BR/><BR/>First you ask for some kind of proof then you go back to the bible just to try of make more points that prove nothing. If the bible is the only place to seek knowledge then there is no need for science or education. Why bother learning about Gods creation just read the bible again and it will tell you all the answers when if you read it closely it will tell you to seek out His prophets.</I><BR/><BR/>Wow, what an attack !<BR/><BR/>If you really believe from what I write, that I actually worship 'the Bible' then you are very much deluded.<BR/><BR/>Science and education forms a very great part in character building when it is done in Truth. Science also has a very nasty habits of allowing the so named 'experts' perverting Truth and contorting it to fit within human understanding as if we have the right to know. Evolution for example is one of the most corrupt forms of the beginning of our existence on this planet that is perpetrated by nearly all scientific 'experts' and yet they could not be farther from the Truth. Why, because the Truth points to Jesus as our Creator and the proof is there in Genesis 1. The Bible is to be used for proof and correction, as it states clearly in it's own texts. Don't like the message - then don't read it. Stick with your BoM and other Gnostic writings and see where they get you. They certainly won't get you to the meaning of the Gospel - and that's a fact!<BR/><BR/>I will accept Truth if it is Bible based. If not then it is no longer Truth but man-made fiction and should be treated with scepticism. There are many deceptions out there in the world where people are very clever at distorting reality, so that one can come away actually believing what the eyes and ears have seen or heard. Does that make it True, or is it deception? Hhmmmm! Will you believe <I>everything</I> that you see or hear? Do you have faith to believe in Who you can not see ?<BR/><BR/><I>"It is appointed unto men once to die and after that comes judgment,"</I> I have never disputed the two key elements of this verse and yes I believe in them. Once a man is judged - what then. Revelation is clear on this point - eternity with God - or eternally seperated by the second death. hat is the judgement. Daniel 7 : 9-14 clearly depicts and sets the judgement scene. It is clear from these verses that there are two judgements. Firstly the judgement of the righteous (or otherwise known as seperation of the wheat and the chaff or the sheep and the goats in the parables of Jesus), and then the judgement of the wicked (just to be fair for them to realise the consequences of their lives). <BR/><BR/>'Preached, evangelised' - you can take the words as you like, but the message is the same. The verses are one grammatical sentence to tbe taking in context. In the origial text you do not have the mid-sentence punctuation that you enjoy with the English, so it needs to be taken as a whole. To remove one part of this sentence and create a 'spirit world' doctrine is dangerous indeed.<BR/><BR/>We can find out what Isaiah says about it in Isaiah 38:17-19 and 42:7 <B>17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. <BR/>18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. <BR/>19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.<BR/><BR/>"To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."</B> <BR/><BR/>Darkness in the Bible represents a seperation from God. Here God is stating as fact that it is only the living that can be brought out of that darkness. Once a man has passed away, there is no hope of changing anything - so where is the so called 'prison'? Isaiah 42 defines this as bringing living people out of spiritual 'darkness'. This is the spirit prison. It is a motion of character changing proportions to bring people back to a harmony with God and living in His ways and not in their dark prisons. <BR/><BR/>It is there in black and white. You will find more texts in the Bible to support this theology, where I challenge you to provide me with one other text to support your 'spirit prison' / 'weigh weigh station' doctrine?Teranno4x4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08907963173025554195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60281222701449649122008-02-19T05:19:00.000-06:002008-02-19T05:19:00.000-06:00Ruach (Ruah) is Hebrew for 'breath,' and represent...Ruach (Ruah) is Hebrew for 'breath,' and represents spirit- literally, the breath of God. Not mans breath. <BR/><BR/>Gen. 2:7 <BR/>"...the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life..." ( breath of God)<BR/><BR/>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <BR/><BR/>Nephesh (נפש) is the Hebrew word commonly translated as soul in English. It literally means "animal" though it is usually used in the sense of "living being" (breathing creature).<BR/><BR/>So in short the word Ruach comes closest to having a given power by God given to Adam created by God to have any presents of immortality. God gave to Adam more then the earthly air to breath but His personal breath. This personal Godly breath is understhood to be our spirit or soul. This spirit or soul it what make each of us unique or animated. A person can breath the air around us but not be animated. <BR/><BR/>The second word Nephesh is just breathing the air around us in its simplest form, however even with this man can not reproduce life from the lifeless dust of the ground. <BR/><BR/>In short, as the ruach is to the created nephesh, so the Ruach Elohim is to God Himself, part of God and identified with God. Ruach may be understood as the Authors spirit force of power of the animating dynamic of the created order, the underlying Principle spirit force of creation, and the One spiritual force that imparts the nephesh (basic elements of atomic structure) to the entire universeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com