tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post2700917512526920448..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Maybe Obedience Isn't a Dirty Word After AllJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-52968146198535651292009-09-23T17:00:31.892-05:002009-09-23T17:00:31.892-05:00Carlos U.
I've just had an email exchange wit...Carlos U.<br /><br />I've just had an email exchange with my non-denominational Christian brother (from my dad's 2nd marriage). He asked my opinion of what a pastor was saying on a Youtube video.<br /><br />My answer, which he quite liked, was that every time Jesus Christ was asked by someone what they must do to have eternal life, He answered by listing the 10 commandments. He told this to the young rich ruler, and to the Pharise who then went on to ask "and who is my neighbour?". It's right there, in the red letters. Direct question, direct answer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3956027679948389482009-09-21T13:59:18.169-05:002009-09-21T13:59:18.169-05:00Yes,obedience is a very dirty word. Obedience, in ...Yes,obedience is a very dirty word. Obedience, in the way you all use it, is worse than d..n, s..t, h..l, f..k, or about anything else I can imagine.The Holy Cussernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36456218428879724312009-09-18T22:06:55.972-05:002009-09-18T22:06:55.972-05:00Thanks for a good post. I have also enjoyed the d...Thanks for a good post. I have also enjoyed the discussion. The only point I can see to add has to do with the Temple recommend questions. <br /><br />While it is true that many of the questions have to do with our obedience of specific commandments, the first is whether we have faith in, and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, and his son Jesus Christ.<br /><br />As you've discussed, this question has to come first, because without the affirmative to this question, any amount of rule following is meaningless. <br /><br />Ok, just one other thing--as I understand it, the other questions in the temple recommend are there because they are directly related to our worthiness, i.e., we "quench the spirit" if we participate in adultery, break the WoW, etc. Like PapaD said, I don't see keeping these commandments as "works" per se (I'd think of service, FHE, or home teaching), but more like a fulfillment of "be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord."dadeckrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14060749408164700960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90501108040922036322009-09-05T00:13:14.217-05:002009-09-05T00:13:14.217-05:00Fwiw, I see obedience as greatly different than a ...Fwiw, I see obedience as greatly different than a focus on works - and the two get mixed up regularly, as is proven in this thread. <br /><br />Focusing on works is focusing on self; striving to be obedient is focusing on the one who is commanding - in this case, God. Greed or dedication can cause work, but it is faith that underlies and motivates intentional and "free" obedience. I just don't believe it is possible to separate faith "in the Lord, Jesus Christ" and obedience "to the Lord, Jesus Christ and His Father who sent him". <br /><br />I believe this distinction is the difference between the fruits by which Jesus said we would be judged and the dead works that Paul told the Jews would not save them. If anyone is interested, I wrote the following last Saturday: <br /><br />http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009/08/producing-fruits-not-just-works.htmlPapa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31362699488450333982009-09-03T13:04:27.581-05:002009-09-03T13:04:27.581-05:00I understand where CD is coming from, and he has a...I understand where CD is coming from, and he has already established that he is not implying that we do not teach about faith. Please, let's be civil.<br /><br />Brother Lindsay, this was a wonderful post. Really cleared it up for me in a way only you seem to be able to do :D<br />Thanks!Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03960519151863517265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-26075422382338931672009-09-03T02:11:45.949-05:002009-09-03T02:11:45.949-05:00Thanks Bookslinger... I always get those two mixed...Thanks Bookslinger... I always get those two mixed up.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36945139198203191362009-09-02T12:14:59.657-05:002009-09-02T12:14:59.657-05:00Ryan: actually that's the "contrapositive...Ryan: actually that's the "contrapositive" not the "converse".<br /><br />statement: if p then q<br />converse: if q then p<br />inverse: if not p then not q<br />contrapositive: if not q then not p<br /><br />(from: http://www.jimloy.com/logic/converse.htm )<br /><br />For the statement:<br />"increased faith leads to increased obedience", <br />the converse would be: <br />"increased obedience leads to increased faith",<br />and the contrapositive would be:<br />"less obedience leads to less faith" (what you said).<br /><br />I think all three statements are true, as in what CD said how faith leads to obedience, what you say, that less obedience leads to less faith. <br /><br />And the converse is true too: keep the commandments, and you'll obtain more faith. I think this is what the Lord meant in <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/7/17#17" rel="nofollow">John 7:17</a>, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. "Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89977943788048343812009-09-02T06:53:32.921-05:002009-09-02T06:53:32.921-05:00Jeff,
I think you have written a solid post, even...Jeff,<br /><br />I think you have written a solid post, even if I don't agree with your emphasis on obedience being the requirement to access God's grace. I see God's grace as a free gift to all, and that it is our free will either to accept or reject the free gift of grace which leads to salvation. It seems that you are presenting the view that obedience leads to salvation. Correct me if I am wrong in this conclusion. I, on the other hand, see obedience as the fruit of salvation. This means that I believe we are justified by our faith in Jesus Christ, which means that our faith saves us--not any works or obedience. Obedience is our evidence that we truly believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and LORD. I believe in the Work of the Holy Spirit to sanctify us, and that as we are sanctified, we will be more obedient. When I contemplate obedience after reading God's Word, it is clear to me that the commands of God are simply to love God and neighbor as ourself. Having said this, I need to say that I see sin as relational and not a thing. Sin breaks relationship with God and man, and being made perfect in God's love, which is what I perceive sanctification to be, leads to one not breaking the 10 commandments. I believe that we don't have to sin, and that to say, "I'm human and I just can't help it" is to deny the power of God to save and to sanctify and to make us holy. So, I think we agree in a lot of areas, but our emphasis on obedience and, therefore, works is different in where we place them on the road to eternal salvation. Nevertheless, I think you did a good job to present the importance of obedience and the fact that God DOES call us to obedience, and that we can't get away from it no matter how much we talk about grace and mercy and love--it's just that it's a response and not a prerequisite from my perspective. BTW, I just preached on obedience and used a similar phrase to point out that we often think of obedience as a dirty word or a thing that is an affront to our freedom in Christ. :-)<br /><br />Blessings...jackgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46842449445480648372009-09-02T02:11:05.932-05:002009-09-02T02:11:05.932-05:00CD is right that you tend to hear lots of exhortat...CD is right that you tend to hear lots of exhortations to obedience from LDS pulpits. The question is whether that's a bad thing. <br /><br />You also tend to read lots of exhortations to obedience in the scriptures. Old testament, especially. I haven't actually done a tally, but my gut feeling is that, in the Gospels, Christ said more things to do than to believe. As CD and others have said, increased faith definitely leads to a desire to obey, but the converse is also true: disobedience leads to a decrease in faith. Think of the parable of the talents: "it shall be taken away even that which he hath."<br /><br />While it's certainly non-optimal when we struggle to obey without relying on God's grace to bring the change of heart and added strength we'll need to actually succeed, even that has its good points. Paraphrasing C.S. Lewis, faith in Christ comes after the "great disaster" -- realizing we can't succeed on our own -- which leads us to seek God. Personally, I think it's great when people "hit bottom" by realizing they can't obey fully on their own, rather than wallowing in grievous sin and "hitting bottom" that way. The latter route usually has lasting consequences which repentance does not erase, and the repentant sinner will still have to learn eventually that, like forgiveness for sin, true obedience comes only through Grace.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18635297704584612642009-09-02T00:42:20.676-05:002009-09-02T00:42:20.676-05:00I know that CD sits through Church with his wife. ...I know that CD sits through Church with his wife. I have been following this blog for years. My name used to be Latter-Day James, sorry I changed my name a few months ago.<br /><br />Anyway, I get what he is saying, faith is important, but I also say that obedience is too otherwise what is the point of faith? ie I have faith (testimony)of the Law of Tithing but I don't actually pay it. So how important is that faith now? I haven't obeyed or followed that faith. Yes I know faith should come first, but obedience is just as important. <br /><br />I still think that claiming that obedience is taught more than faith can't really be shown. Anyway I guess I don't care as long as they are both taught and shown to be important to us as you mentioned in the temple recommend question. <br /><br />I think CD is a good guy and all I just don't agree with how he approached it, it sounded like we did things all wrong, but what do I know, I just have Faith that I belong to Christ's church here on Earth and is led by inspired leaders. Leaders that teach us correct principles including faith AND obedience.bunkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091655088509351675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3923254332024577852009-09-01T22:23:06.845-05:002009-09-01T22:23:06.845-05:00Bunker, CD is a frequent attender of LDS sacramen...Bunker, CD is a frequent attender of LDS sacrament meetings. His observations may not hold church-wide, but he does have a point. He's giving his viewpoint from where he sits in one of our chapels observing us.<br /><br />And, I have to give him the point on this. When I think of all the "exhortations" that I've heard in sacrament meetings and conferences over the years, though I haven't kept a scorecard, my gut-feel is that exhortations to keep the commandments have exceeded exhortations to have faith. That may not be true in fact, but it's the impression I get.<br /><br />CD, The temple-recommend questions are in <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c2c97befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD" rel="nofollow">Gospel Principles chapter 38 on eternal marriage.</a> The first question is supposed to be whether one has faith in and a testimony of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Sustaining the prophet comes next, then commandment-keeping questions.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-51990622667083075472009-09-01T17:07:27.388-05:002009-09-01T17:07:27.388-05:00Yes CD you are right, us LDS folk do not believe i...Yes CD you are right, us LDS folk do not believe in Faith only strict adherence to President Monson. You are so wise. joking of course<br /><br />I think it is hilarious how you talk about how the LDS church doesn't stress Faith enough (when we do) I agree with your idea that faith goes along with obedience but not with the idea that we don't stress it. That is very subjective and not substantiated. <br /><br />"That said, I also think that a great deal of emphasis is placed on being obedient, over faith." (keeping a tally sheet are we?)<br /><br />Obedience and faith go hand in hand. If we have faith and aren't obedient is it just as bad or worse?bunkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091655088509351675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23836492658850135242009-09-01T13:05:43.389-05:002009-09-01T13:05:43.389-05:00I agree with Catholic Defender - thank you for you...I agree with Catholic Defender - thank you for your well thought out comments. We don't want to become like the Pharisees - so caught up in the rules that we miss the mark. But, with faith, we also have the added perspective that the Lord is trying to make us more like him, so what we do (works) is training to make something of us. We just have to be careful about forgetting how crucial faith is in all of this.<br /><br />I have heard too many discussions about how we need to help so-and-so to quit smoking. In reality, that isn't a big sin. If only the really serious ones were more evident to others, we might get the help where we really need it.<br /><br />There are other ways in which we, as Mormons, miss the mark. When was the last time you sat in a sacrament meeting and it was all about Joseph Smith and the only mention of the Savior was in the prayers. While discussing the contributions of Joseph Smith isn't a bad thing, we need to remember who we are there to worship, and it is not him.<br /><br />We can also get so caught up in the scholarly aspects of our religion that we miss the real meat of it - what it can do for our lives - and focus instead on how many facts we know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56618143650274659272009-09-01T10:42:30.916-05:002009-09-01T10:42:30.916-05:00Once again someone telling us what we believe.Once again someone telling us what we believe.bunkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091655088509351675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31399455711146633982009-09-01T10:12:45.186-05:002009-09-01T10:12:45.186-05:00CD, I thought I would test your hypothesis that ou...CD, I thought I would test your hypothesis that our church doesn't teach faith enough. <br /><br />So I went straight to this months First Presidency message in the Ensign. It can basically be considered the most recent teachings given on a churchwide scale.<br /><br />Here are just a few sample sentences regarding faith from the article...<br /><br />"Have faith and confidence in Him, and you will see miracles happen in your life and the lives of your loved ones. "<br /><br />“Without the devotion and absolute testimony of the living God in the hearts of our mothers, this Church would die.”<br /><br />" She was the humblest of the humble, the wisest of the wise, because she was willing and pure enough to believe when God had spoken."<br /><br />These are just a few 'soundbites'. The entire article is permeated with beseeching the women of the church to enlarge and live by faith and testimony. <br /><br />You can see it for yourself if you like. Just go to www.lds.org and look for the article on the top left hand side of the screen.Mrs Chickadeehttp://www.asahengatherethherchickens.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-67787596906218794052009-09-01T07:40:23.917-05:002009-09-01T07:40:23.917-05:00HI All,
I suppose I will try to clarify again. B...HI All,<br /><br />I suppose I will try to clarify again. By the way, Bookslinger thanks for getting my back. I did not mean to be disparaging in my comments. I am quite aware that the LDS church teaches a great deal about faith. So do all the other denominations. Much of the Christian religion is faith based. That said, I also think that a great deal of emphasis is placed on being obedient, over faith. That isn't just an LDS thing, its common place with all the denominations including my own. <br /><br />Consider this for a moment. Each denomination has a set of rules or dogma that must be adhered to in order to be in good standing within that church. Your own church has rules about tithing, and following the WOW, believing JS to be a prophet of God, keeping the sabbath holy, etc. If you are not obedient to those rules then your righteous standing falls to the wayside and you become unworthy to enter God's temple. Observing this, and this is from my vantage point and may be biased, it seems that there is often more emphasis placed on obeying these rules than there is on faith. I realize that I may be looking from a skewed vantage point. <br /><br />The point is, there is a danger to all this emphasis on obedience. That danger goes for any of the denominations, not just the LDS. If too much emphasis is placed on obedience, then we miss the entire point of Christ's message because we are too focused on obedience to exercise faith. That is what happened to the Pharisees. They were too caught up in the rule of law to grasp that the law means nothing if there is no faith in God behind it. <br /><br />The example I gave of Mary shows that obedience grows out of faith, not vice versa. You must have the faith first. David going to meet Goliath. He didn't go out there because he was being obedient. He went out there because he had faith in God protecting him. His faith led to his obedience. Paul preaching to the masses. He got off to a rocky start mind you, but Paul going out and preaching is not an example of obedience, its an example of faith leading to obedience. Obedience starts with faith and the point I was making is that there is a danger in emphasizing so much on obedience. I think your church as well as mine sometimes misses the mark on this. Not intentionally, but it does happen.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39825318434050375672009-09-01T00:46:08.356-05:002009-09-01T00:46:08.356-05:00I don't think anything I said was unfair, CD w...I don't think anything I said was unfair, CD was clearly implying the LDS church doesn't place an emphasis on faith ,<br /><br />"Your church, as well as many other denominations, puts a great deal of emphasis on obedience, but its meaningless without faith"<br /><br />Just trying to correct erroneous statements.bunkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091655088509351675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63132853252662181232009-08-31T22:54:00.431-05:002009-08-31T22:54:00.431-05:00Faith is best used as a verb, rather than as a nou...Faith is best used as a verb, rather than as a noun or as a synonym for belief.<br /><br />I faithed today.<br />Today I will faith for Christ.<br />I am faithing with my family.<br /><br />Faith is the turning of belief into action. When obedience is married with hope in Christ then you have faith.<br /><br />Faith = spiritual creation, a manifestation of a future physical reality.(Evidence of things not yet seen).<br /><br />Faith in Christ = a man saved from death and sin (the future physical reality)Patricknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-84205277419260475982009-08-31T22:52:52.650-05:002009-08-31T22:52:52.650-05:00I agree with Bookslinger. And I agree with Cathol...I agree with Bookslinger. And I agree with Catholic Defender.<br /><br />Obedience should grow out of faith otherwise it is unsustainable and joyless and doesn't save us in the Kindgom of God. <br /><br />Just like we can do all the good works in the world but if they are not motivated by love, then once again, they are worthless.<br /><br />This is where we often get misunderstood by other denominations. We surely believe in faith and grace. But we don't believe that faith, grace and good works are mutually exclusive. They grow out of each other.Mrs Chickadeehttp://www.asahengatherethherchickens.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-24712427943425146462009-08-31T22:38:08.137-05:002009-08-31T22:38:08.137-05:00I absolutely believe that the grace-only-by-hook-o...I absolutely believe that the grace-only-by-hook-or-by-crook doctrine is a very dangerous doctrine: A useful tool of Satan's to lead people carefully down to hell. <br /><br />Lets just suppose for just a short minute that Jesus Christ's gospel was a combination of both - grace AND works (not JUST works by the way but grace AND works).... <br /><br />If the adversary could convince people that all they had to do was accept Jesus Christ died for them and never do another thing in their life to act upon that knowledge, then he would have led them successfully away from the Lord. <br /><br />However, if they accepted the Lord died for them and then set about living their lives like Christ implored them to do, truly becoming disciples of Christ in charity and humilty and faith then they truly could be called the Children of God.<br /><br />Now on the flip side, if we consider for a moment that Christ's doctrine was absolute grace only and anything more than that was an abomination before God. Would we be wrong to want to become as Jesus was - an example of the believers, kind, charitable, faithful? Would that truly be cause enough to be sent to hell?<br /><br />And would it be OK to accept Christ into your heart and then act cruelly and selfishly for the rest of your life?<br /><br /><br />Grace only doesn't make sense when you reason it out. And it doesn't make sense when you consider all of Jesus Christ's exemplary life and teachings. <br /><br />I truly believe that Satan uses the doctrine of Grace-only as an effective tool for his own purposes.Mrs Chickadeehttp://www.asahengatherethherchickens.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-67155174404891011012009-08-31T20:14:39.202-05:002009-08-31T20:14:39.202-05:00I think a couple of you guys are reading CD's ...I think a couple of you guys are reading CD's remarks in an uncharitable way. Give the guy a break.<br /><br />He was responding to the anonymous who asked "Which is better? An atheist who follows their own code of ethics that are acceptable by most of western religion, the society in which he or she lives, as well as the government? Or a church-going Mormon who breaks most of the rules without truly repenting?"<br /><br />That was a narrowly defined hypothetical situation of two people, and it didn't have any implications or accusations of atheists or Mormons in general.<br /><br />CD confined his remarks to the narrowly-defined hypothetical question, again without casting any aspersions on LDS in general.<br /><br />I agree with CD here. The atheist in the hypothetical situation is likely in a better position than the Jack-Mormon who breaks most of the rules and doesn't have an attitude of repentance.<br /><br />I think both of them, the anonymous and CD, got jumped on for things they didn't say.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-62505606968407590962009-08-31T16:03:31.081-05:002009-08-31T16:03:31.081-05:00CD, you are right, Faith does come before Obedienc...CD, you are right, Faith does come before Obedience. As members of the LDS church we would be pretty foolish if we went around paying tithing, obeying commandments, teaching primary (shudder) :-) etc. if there isn't faith involved there. <br /><br />Your comment <br /><br />"Your church, as well as many other denominations, puts a great deal of emphasis on obedience, but its meaningless without faith." <br /><br />is hinting that the LDS church doesn't teach faith in some way or doesn't teach it enough? I have to disagree. I don't know if you missed those weeks when it was taught but that is a MAJOR part of the LDS church teachings.bunkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091655088509351675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-29310008428833258192009-08-31T13:36:38.153-05:002009-08-31T13:36:38.153-05:00Dear Anonymous,
I hope that isn't what I said...Dear Anonymous,<br /><br />I hope that isn't what I said...I'm pretty sure that's not what I meant if it came across that way. I'll clarify though. Yesterday, your church's message was about obedience. Often I hear your members talk at great length about how important it is to be obedient to God. The WOW is all about obedience. Temple recommends are also all about obedience. Its that obedience to the word of God that makes you temple worthy. Obedience is great, but it isn't the most important aspect of Christianity. It starts with faith, without that the obedience is just blindly following the words, but its an empty act. <br /><br />I know that your members act in faith. I don't doubt that at all. But, in the same token, a great deal of the discourse in your services and scholarly works are on obedience. The only point I was making is that if you focus too heavily on obedience, you're going to miss the whole point of Christianity. It really does come down to a matter of faith. If you don't have the faith, you don't have any reason to be obedient. Hopefully that makes sense. <br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-8811278922135106302009-08-31T12:20:00.040-05:002009-08-31T12:20:00.040-05:00Catholic Defender: To suggest that LDS church memb...Catholic Defender: To suggest that LDS church members do not act on faith is more than a bit ridiculous. Sorry, but you should probably either clarify your comment with some evidence or take some time to research the role of faith in the LDS religion. Many LDS scholars have written books on the subject, and faith is often the subject of lessons, hymns, and talks in church meetings held around the world.<br /><br />If you are Catholic, I would recommend the book "Know Your Religions Vol. 1 - Mormonism and Catholicism," which was written by an LDS church member with a foreword by a Catholic bishop. This book compares the two religions and covers faith and many other points of doctrine which you may also misunderstand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27449219751275375542009-08-31T08:15:15.219-05:002009-08-31T08:15:15.219-05:00HI All,
Perhaps the question posed by anonymous w...HI All,<br /><br />Perhaps the question posed by anonymous would be better phrased this way. Who's leading a more Christlike life, the atheist who follows a code of ethics that shows love for his fellow man, treats others as he would himself be treated, and lives life to serve others before himself; or the church going mormon who appears on the right path on the outside, but is truly just going through the motions. In that case, I'd say the atheist is in better shape. I don't think anonymous' question was presented to criticize or humiliate. It actually seems to be presented to point out some of the flaws of adhereing to a strict code of obedience. <br /><br />Obedience is something God expects from us, but its meaningless without a faith in God to begin with. Consider Mary's agreement to give birth to Christ. Is this truly about obedience or is there something more at work here? I say there's much more than obedience at work in that example. <br /><br />Think about this, you're Mary, you're about 14, you're living in a time period where women were pretty much chattels, and being found pregnant out of wedlock was a capital crime. Now some angel comes down and says you're going to give birth to the Son of God...and everything is going to be okay if you just obey. That's an awful lot to swallow if you really think about it. So do you obey or don't you? The anwser to that question really depends upon faith, not a willingness to obey God. <br /><br />If you have no faith, then you have no reason to trust the Lord's messenger, and you have no reason to be obedient. On the other hand, if you have a strong faith in God, then you have nothing to fear by obeying God. As I see it, what makes Mary...and all the other prophets and the apostles so remarkable, is not their obedience; its their faith. As I said before, obedience is important, but its meaningless without the faith to back it. Mary is amazing not because she obeyed God, but because she had such great faith in God, that she didn't have to question when it came time to obey...she just said yes. Its her faith that's most remarkable, not her obedience...that's just a symptom of her faith so to speak. <br /><br />The reason the ten commandments failed, and the jews struggled with obedience was because of the faith they had. When it was strong, they flourished, when their faith wained, so did their obedience and adherence to the law. Your church, as well as many other denominations, puts a great deal of emphasis on obedience, but its meaningless without faith. Consider the pharisees. They were obedient to the law...they followed the law to the letter. Their obedience meant nothing, because it was just that, obedience...there was no faith behind it. Without faith, there is no reason to obey.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Catholic Defendercatholic defenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161360870245850585noreply@blogger.com