tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post2976459132569171465..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: More Thoughts on the Heartland Model of Book of Mormon GeographyJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74682980174720052702022-02-11T15:30:48.380-06:002022-02-11T15:30:48.380-06:00When I read about the man who went forth upon the ...When I read about the man who went forth upon the many waters after being wrought upon by the Spirit, I see him as William Bradford rather than Columbus.<br /><br />And as for wearing a loincloth in a North American winter, check out Chief Samoset greeting the Pilgrims. That guy was a man!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00152367897437534212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-40957168436297789572020-06-07T01:20:49.774-05:002020-06-07T01:20:49.774-05:00I'm not LDS but take an interest in internal d...I'm not LDS but take an interest in internal debates about Book of Mormon geography.<br /><br />I think this is a poor list of reasons- Mesoamericanist advocates have got to stop giving lists like this without detailed engagement with Heartland advocates! They've invested a good deal of energy responding to exactly these arguments, giving evidence for large cities, highways, trade networks, and the like. I have an academic interest in the antiquities of America, and some of these arguments are sound. These arguments are predicated on an outdated view of North American archaeology.<br /><br />Again, I don't actually believe the Book of Mormon took place in the Heartland (or anywhere else), but I can see why Heartland advocates get so annoyed about Mesoamerican advocates repeating the same arguments without so much as noticing that they've had depth responses for years. Charles Pettibonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02460491857822018841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32187037126165340292016-05-31T20:34:27.902-05:002016-05-31T20:34:27.902-05:00There are other reasons the Heartlands don't q...There are other reasons the Heartlands don't qualify.<br /><br />The geography doesn't even come close to matching. There is no narrow neck of land. Even if you count that West-East strip, the drumlin now bearing Cumorah's name is in the wrong place and there's zero evidence a huge battle was ever fought there. The populations are wrong, there's no mention of cold weather, crossing frozen rivers, casualties caused by exposure. And what sort of serpent could afflict a land during cold winter weather for years? Zelph can still be a viable story in the northern lands, but he didn't live in the Book of Mormon lands to the south. Heartlands proponents are making this issue a sort of religious jihad, with those who disagree with them as spiritually lacking. They make things personal.<br /><br />They also live in a dreamland.<br /><br />John Roberts 👀https://www.blogger.com/profile/01713751168258439316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-49379462718072015552016-01-31T18:13:05.363-06:002016-01-31T18:13:05.363-06:00The list of items in the article are too simplisti...The list of items in the article are too simplistic to be persuasive. I used to live in the heartland region, and some of the things listed are not true (lack of gold, no north running rivers for example). Unfortunately the debate has become political, broken into factions (some crying lot here). We need to look at all the data. Why did some great lakes tribes wear turbans? What was the purpose of dozens of blast furnaces in the mounds? A tree of life stella in Central America? An east coast native American tribe with a story of brother fighting over sacred records that were taken into heaven? Central American stories of 8 boats arriving? What would happen if we put all the evidence on the table, including what the scriptures say.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45309370394113766682015-12-31T18:36:23.194-06:002015-12-31T18:36:23.194-06:00Two animals that supposedly lived in the Heartland...Two animals that supposedly lived in the Heartland... Why Are they Unknown?<br /><br />Joseph Smith, when translating the abridged record of Ether, came across the following sentence: <br /><br />"And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and xxxxxxx and yyyyyyy; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and xxxxxx and yyyyyyy” (Ether 9:19).<br /><br />Why did Joseph Smith not fill in the names of these two animals?<br /><br />If the Heartland is the Book of Mormon lands.. we should easily be able to insert the names of these two animals!<br /><br />They were not some minor animal of the time, for they were as important unto man as the elephant.<br /><br />Joseph would have know much about animals—he was a farmer, around 24 years of age at the time of translation, having worked on his father’s farms. Five generations of Smith’s lived in Topsfield, a small township about 20 miles north of Boston, Massachusetts.<br /><br />So what possible animal could that have been written about in the Ether record that could be described as more useful to man than the horse or donkey (ass)? <br /><br />It is interesting in the list of such helpful animals, along with the elephant, is the camel.<br /><br />And a type of camelid (camelidae) that is also listed that is very helpful to man are the two animals: Llama and Alpaca, domestic descendants of the wild vicuña and guanaco.<br /><br />So when Joseph came to cureloms and cumoms, he did not know to insert Llama and Alpaca. Why? <br /><br />Could it be that the animal never existed in the Heartland? Never existed in North America?<br /><br />Thus, the verse: “And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms” (Ether 9:19); could have been accurately rendered:<br />“And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and Llamas and Alpacas; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and Llamas and Alpacas” (Ether 9:19).MrNiromhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963388782323242196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9932987843883640472015-12-31T18:31:23.409-06:002015-12-31T18:31:23.409-06:00Two animals that supposedly lived in the Heartland...Two animals that supposedly lived in the Heartland... Why Are they Unknown?<br /><br />Joseph Smith, when translating the abridged record of Ether, came across the following sentence: <br /><br />"And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and xxxxxxx and yyyyyyy; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and xxxxxx and yyyyyyy” (Ether 9:19).<br /><br />Why did Joseph Smith not fill in the names of these two animals?<br /><br />If the Heartland is the Book of Mormon lands.. we should easily be able to insert the names of these two animals!<br /><br />They were not some minor animal of the time, for they were as important unto man as the elephant.<br /><br />Joseph would have know much about animals—he was a farmer, around 24 years of age at the time of translation, having worked on his father’s farms. Five generations of Smith’s lived in Topsfield, a small township about 20 miles north of Boston, Massachusetts.<br /><br />So what possible animal could that have been written about in the Ether record that could be described as more useful to man than the horse or donkey (ass)? <br /><br />It is interesting in the list of such helpful animals, along with the elephant, is the camel.<br /><br />And a type of camelid (camelidae) that is also listed that is very helpful to man are the two animals: Llama and Alpaca, domestic descendants of the wild vicuña and guanaco.<br /><br />So when Joseph came to cureloms and cumoms, he did not know to insert Llama and Alpaca. Why? <br /><br />Could it be that the animal never existed in the Heartland? Never existed in North America?<br /><br />Thus, the verse: “And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms” (Ether 9:19); could have been accurately rendered:<br />“And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and Llamas and Alpacas; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and Llamas and Alpacas” (Ether 9:19).MrNiromhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17963388782323242196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41632442329007382272015-09-01T04:54:25.814-05:002015-09-01T04:54:25.814-05:00As a Non Mormon looking at this debate form the ou...As a Non Mormon looking at this debate form the outside, the Mesoamerican model would be the worst spiritually We know the most about those cultures and none were as Monotheistic as the Nephites are supposed to have been. So if only that fits the geography, Mormons have a big problem.Kuudere-Kunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06537085979461349854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37321583189049221882014-03-24T15:16:54.570-05:002014-03-24T15:16:54.570-05:00Sorry to the supporters of the Heartland theory, b...Sorry to the supporters of the Heartland theory, but the Sidon did flow northward. That discounts the Mississippi. Also, try wearing loin cloths in an Iowa winter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37883254142887754142014-01-11T00:45:17.831-06:002014-01-11T00:45:17.831-06:00Jeff, I discovered your blog 13 years ago while in...Jeff, I discovered your blog 13 years ago while in college and appreciated your insight on so many topics. Thank you for your dedicated commitment to helping me discover truth.<br /><br />In recent years I've found my head and my heart resonating with the Heartland Model (after my initial reaction being, "That is absolutely preposterous!")and was curious to look you up to get your take.<br /><br />I was disappointed. I would've hoped you'd have displayed a more open mind to at least consider a different view, and recognize that even the strongest mesoamerican model "could be mistaken." Why not propose the strengths of both, instead of taking such quick opposition?<br /><br />I have found that those having the hardest time accepting evidence for the Heartland Model are those that have too much to lose if they're wrong, they're in too deep and too far committed to espousing the mesoamerican theory. Of course they must defend years of open support for one idea and many I see are too prideful to again, "admit they could be mistaken."<br /><br />Jeff - be the FIRST to say just that, and give this the merit it deserves. I'm not saying accept it blindly, but at least open your self to consider its plausibility.<br /><br />With such a flowering of truth in other areas of the gospel at this time, it would make sense that God is providing greater clarity on the topic of Book of Mormon lands.<br /><br />Most sincerely,Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05369774847784373264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33937550315502933602013-08-09T03:15:52.409-05:002013-08-09T03:15:52.409-05:00This is cool!This is cool!Vernonhttp://besttreadmillforhomes.us/2013/08/08/the-correct-treadmill-position/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16905040552276828872013-07-27T18:36:29.461-05:002013-07-27T18:36:29.461-05:00Eh? Most of those points on that first link establ...Eh? Most of those points on that first link establish a general north/south orientation, not the direction of flow. Only the latter two points really cover that. Admittedly the post beforehand might have misunderstood Alma 22:29 on the issue (as I read it, it suggests the head is in the wilderness between the Nephites and Lamanites, just like Alma 43:22 and 56:25 as cited in the article). But it's hardly overwhelming, just like those bullet points (as someone mentions above, the Columbus point would affect the 'heartland' and Mesoamerican theories equally.<br /><br />I personally think there's some major problems with the 'heartland' theory, and I certainly think some of the work that has been done to try and substantiate it has been lacking. But I also think there's major problems with the Mesoamerican theory as it stands.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13682902690725748972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-38147161649696726372013-06-29T10:05:07.945-05:002013-06-29T10:05:07.945-05:00Basics in why Sidon flows north are at http://book...Basics in why Sidon flows north are at http://bookofmormonresources.blogspot.com/2011/11/river-sidon-south-to-north.html. Also see http://www.bmaf.org/node/297 and more detail at http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=jbms&vol=1&num=1&id=622Jeff L.http://jefflindsay.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90194101539038635662013-06-28T16:29:47.420-05:002013-06-28T16:29:47.420-05:00Why does Sidon have to run south to north anyway? ...Why does Sidon have to run south to north anyway? Alma 22:29 says, "the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful."<br /><br />That seems to say that the head of the river is in or next to the northern part of the land. As far as I can tell, head means source, so if the rest of the river is south of the head, it runs north to south. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81556120511249139582013-06-28T00:48:00.161-05:002013-06-28T00:48:00.161-05:00Hi Jeff,
The assumption in #1 doesn't hold t...Hi Jeff, <br /><br />The assumption in #1 doesn't hold true anymore since the definition has been changed:<br /><br />http://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/sidon-river?lang=eng&letter=s<br /><br />Thanks<br />vanishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08876428655913960372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83939842717128139542013-06-14T23:34:28.187-05:002013-06-14T23:34:28.187-05:00Hi Jeff. I happen to be visiting in Wisconsin and ...Hi Jeff. I happen to be visiting in Wisconsin and thought of you so I checked your blog. I hope you reconsider these objections. Your premises are mistaken, for these reasons (which deserve far more explanation that I can do right now):<br />1. The Book of Mormon does not say the river Sidon runs south to north. The Church even eliminated that comment from the recent revision of the scriptures.<br />2. There are many strips of wilderness in the heartland.<br />3. Copper, gold and silver were traded throughout North America.<br />4. Lots of cement buildings if you consider how they Indians used a cement-like plaster with their wooden structures. And don't forget, Joseph Smith said the stone box holding the plates used cement.<br />5. Usually people object because the Adena and Hopewell overlapped for 250 years, so I'm surprised you object that they didn't.<br />6. The written language in Mesoamerica has nothing to do with reformed Egyptian, Hebrew, or the characters Harris took to Anton. And the BoM explains that only the elite used written language, so we wouldn't expect it to be widespread.<br />7. DNA is even more problematic in MesoAmerica.<br />8. Joseph Smith clearly described crossing the plains of the Nephites. The D&C designates the area across from Nauvoo as Zarahemla. Lots more on this.<br />9. Anyone who thinks Central America is the promised land hadn't lived or even visited there. It matches none of the BoM descriptions. Columbus mainly visited Cuba and Haiti. Who considers these the promised land? He never visited Mexico or Guatemala, the most commonly suggested locations in the Mesoamerican model, so how is that different from his never having visited North America? <br />10. You mentioned volcanoes (not mentioned in the Book of Mormon) but the events in 3 Ne can be explained by a major earthquake, such as the New Madrid fault (and we have a historical record of the one in 1812). There was a vast, sophisticated civilization in the heartland during BoM time frame that left ruins that perfectly fit the descriptions from the BoM.<br />In sum, the Mesoamerican theory is disintegrating the more we learn, while the opposite is happening in the American Heartland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-79789582804587937812013-06-10T22:48:34.674-05:002013-06-10T22:48:34.674-05:00Written language. Ancient civilizations. River Sid...Written language. Ancient civilizations. River Sidon flowing the right direction. Volcanic activity. These are among the many issues that need to be present in the right time frame for any Book of Mormon geography to be taken seriously. Look to Mesoamerica, folks. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12965556364640421212013-06-09T17:40:05.435-05:002013-06-09T17:40:05.435-05:00The website for Baja California is www.achoiceland...The website for Baja California is www.achoiceland.com.He has been putting on firesides in Southern AlbertaGordon Manvillenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14987649490859824622013-06-09T11:43:57.666-05:002013-06-09T11:43:57.666-05:00Another theory has now appeared being promoted by ...Another theory has now appeared being promoted by former Seventy and Temple President Lynn Rosenval. He makes a case for Baja California.Gordon Manvillenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-78047181063074220352013-06-09T11:43:13.761-05:002013-06-09T11:43:13.761-05:00Another theory has now appeared being promoted by ...Another theory has now appeared being promoted by former Seventy and Temple President Lynn Rosenval. He makes a case for Baja California.Gordon Manvillenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-42810139811752118972013-06-06T21:47:54.754-05:002013-06-06T21:47:54.754-05:00...sorry forgot to subscribe to follow-up comments......sorry forgot to subscribe to follow-up commentsStevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00758380516720231312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-58825236125420384702013-06-06T21:44:57.607-05:002013-06-06T21:44:57.607-05:00I recently came across the Malay Peninsula theory,...I recently came across the Malay Peninsula theory, at first I didn't take it seriously, but after looking into it a little more it seems promising to me. Is there a place with a list of reasons that this model may not qualify, like this list does for the Heartland model?<br /><br />If not, I'd be interested if you could create a separate list for the Malay model too. Or do you think this model is a viable candidate like the Mesoamerica model?Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00758380516720231312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66831341573577376202013-06-06T19:41:27.748-05:002013-06-06T19:41:27.748-05:00@CT
When you consider the only difference between...@CT<br /><br />When you consider the only difference between the U.S. gov and the central American governments, is that they are openly corrupt, it proves the point further.zerabpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88689354563728329112013-06-06T12:04:51.078-05:002013-06-06T12:04:51.078-05:00Hmm, Arabian Peninsula vs. Mesoamerica. If I were ...Hmm, Arabian Peninsula vs. Mesoamerica. If I were Lehi and crew, I'd certainly consider central America a choice land--fertile soil, lots of water, abundant wildlife, etc. If you're referring to political situations, then the prophecies also apply: there are no kings now in central America. Certainly, central America suffers from corrupt politicians and crime and resulting poverty, but no physical terrain is going to be free from those if society rewards corruption and crime.C Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01178189190498225759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1633519347300674362013-06-06T02:11:57.447-05:002013-06-06T02:11:57.447-05:00I've always felt that there is more than just ...I've always felt that there is more than just geographical concerns to be looked at when trying to figure out BOM lands. The prophecies all throughout the BOM speak of the land they are inhabiting as a choice land. Several of them are very specific and can only apply to the U.S., not mesoamerican countries.larryco_noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-55965133250881040132013-06-06T01:00:03.698-05:002013-06-06T01:00:03.698-05:00I would love to see a panel of the leading informe...I would love to see a panel of the leading informed advocates of both models meet and debate. Does anyone know of a place we can read or hear both sides make their points?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com