tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post3234997879072774043..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: The Border Crisis, Unaccompanied Minors, and the Downside of CompassionJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83254570643220133452014-07-29T13:01:45.809-05:002014-07-29T13:01:45.809-05:00Ah, the "evidence-based" community. Tha...Ah, the "evidence-based" community. That is you? No doubt you'll find some who accept your interpretation. But you will find many, many who view it differently. People in the "evidence-based" community, who are able to step outside of their bias for a moment, can accept that. <br /><br />There are many interpretations that scholars have viewed the phrase through. I pointed out one, which explores the Greek word genea. There are other interpretations as well. You have simply chosen an interpretation in which the Greek and English words are similar, and one in which Jesus was not talking about past or future groups of people. You chose one theory out of several, in which there is no uniform acceptance in the "thrust of academic Biblical scholarship." <br /><br />You may stand by your point. I don't condemn you for it. It supports your belief structure, which is different than how a person of faith chooses to view Jesus' words. <br /><br />There is not a point in the scriptures in which Jesus commands all to forsake their livelihood and donate it all to the poor. You choose to miss the idea that Jesus was teaching that we should value treasures in heaven more than worldly goods, and instead took these kinds of verses to mean that we must make ourselves and our families homeless in order to help the homeless.<br />I will say that I do believe we are under some form of condemnation for not having "all things in common." But until then I will continue to learn about financial sacrifice through tithing, fast offerings, and other donations and service projects.<br /><br />"You are not living in accordance with scripture"<br /><br />Well, that much is true on some levels. But I do not consider Orbiting Kolob's interpretation of the New Testament (which is inconsistent with the scriptures as a whole) to be what I measure myself by. And while you are free to judge others by your own understanding, just know that doing so is very unimpressive to people like me. <br /> Piercenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33448358128329708012014-07-29T11:07:22.710-05:002014-07-29T11:07:22.710-05:00Pierce, I stand by my main point that Jesus wrongl...Pierce, I stand by my main point that Jesus wrongly believed himself to be preaching at the brink of the end of the world, and that his pronouncements about laying up treasure etc. (1) made sense in that context, (2) were meant to be taken quite literally, and (2) were and remain quite literally bad advice that hardly any Christian follows today.<br /><br />Instead of taking Jesus' mistake as evidence that he was not God, believers engage in creative readings that make the mistake disappear. This not only allows them to continue believing that the scriptures confirm their belief in the divinity of Jesus, it allows them to adapt the scriptures to the needs of modern life. The needs of modern life drive the reading, rather than the other way around. You are not living in accordance with scripture, at least not until you have read scripture in ways that conform it to the modern life you wish to lead.<br /><br />As you presumably know quite well despite your suggestion to the contrary, my reading of scripture is not merely personal and idiosyncratic.* It is rather more widely shared than that. It's informed by and consistent with the whole thrust of secular and academic biblical scholarship (which severely undermines traditional faith and shows the Bible to be something very different than the faithful think it to be). Traditional Christian beliefs about the Bible are akin to flat-eartherism.** They just don't accord with the facts. Believe what you want, and have fun justifying it in apologetical forums such as this, but don't be surprised to endure a certain amount of condescension from the evidence-based community.<br /><br />* If you want an excellent example of an idiosyncratic or "personal" reading of scripture, you need look no further than Jeff's reading of Nephi (actually Micah, as channeled by Joseph Smith). Can anyone seriously believe Micah/Joseph to be prophesying about "the growing threat of gang violence in our cities, amplified by a surge in illegal immigration"? That you can read such Hal-Lindsey-esque claptrap and then accuse <i>me</i> of interpreting scripture "personally" is pretty rich.<br /><br />** The evidence for traditional beliefs about the historicity and truth of scripture are about as strong as the evidence for <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society" rel="nofollow">this.</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-26383025903590858762014-07-29T09:49:52.286-05:002014-07-29T09:49:52.286-05:00Being a "pretty good reader" is much, mu...Being a "pretty good reader" is much, much different than living the life of a Christian and spending a good portion of your life trying to live in accordance to scripture, especially in a time and place removed from where those scriptures took place.<br /><br />Orbiting demonstrates this point by taking things like "this generation shall not pass away" and personally interpreting it to mean "this crowd of people won't die" before the second coming. He ignores the Greek and the context and doesn't understand that Jesus was most likely referring to the Jews (genea=family, stock, nation). As well-read as Orbiting Kolob may be, he misses several parts in the NT where Jesus does not require people (including wealthy people) to give up everything they have to the poor and to be a travelling disciple. While treating the poor with mercy was very high on Jesus' priorities, it wasn't the highest priority, and there was not a blanket commandment to sell everything to the poor. Yet Orbiting uses this as a standard to measure whether or not a person is a genuine Christian.<br /><br />And those are the kinds of nuances you miss when you have simply read a book instead of dedicating your life to deep study, contemplation, and application. <br /><br />Orbiting Kolob is merely selectively taking isolated scriptures and using them to be condescending to others (who know they do not perfectly live by everything Jesus taught) and exempts himself from these requirements by disinheriting Christ. I am not impressed with what he is saying.<br /><br />Orbiting, it is telling that you were very defensive in your last post. I was not talking about truth claims. And my comment about incorporating the Gospel message successfully and richly into my life has nothing to do with whether or not you can do it without it. What exactly are you trying to prove?Piercenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-69132226156323686552014-07-28T19:25:11.519-05:002014-07-28T19:25:11.519-05:00Orbiting Kolob isn't telling you what to do, P...Orbiting Kolob isn't telling you what to do, Pierce. JESUS told you very clearly what to do. And I suspect, based on his throwing the money changers out of the temple (money changers having been a standard feature of the operations of the temples in Jesus' time) he was telling the ecclesiastical structure what their obligation was as well. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33413948655644816992014-07-28T19:23:10.767-05:002014-07-28T19:23:10.767-05:00Ah, so you are telling a believer and a person of ...<i>Ah, so you are telling a believer and a person of religious faith what it means to be a disciple of Christ.</i><br /><br />Well, yes. And why shouldn't I? The Scriptures are there for me to read as well as for you.<br /><br />I'm a pretty good reader, and I think I know exactly what Jesus meant when he said (for example) that the judgement would arrive before his listeners' generation passed away. He meant that it would happen when he said it would happen, and since it didn't happen then, he was wrong, and because he was wrong he was not (and is not) God.<br /><br />But of course he held this wrong belief quite sincerely, and given such a sincere belief it makes sense that he would tell people to stop laying up treasure on earth, etc. He was conveying a message that made sense in terms of his own understanding of reality; but since I know that history has proved his understanding to have been wrong, it makes sense for me to reject that message. I for one <i>will</i> give thought to the morrow. I for one will <i>not</i> sell all my possessions and give<br />the money to the poor. I will tend my retirement account and lay up treasure here on earth. And in doing these things I am repudiating Jesus.<br /><br />So is Jeff if he does these things. So are you.<br /><br />Your incredulity seems to be based on an assumption that only believers can understand the message of Jesus. Do you really think that assumption is right? If so, why is it right?<br /><br />Because believing in something makes it true? (If so, then aren't any and all sincerely held beliefs true, given that their adherents incorporate their beliefs "successfully and richly" into their lives?)<br /><br />Because incorporating the belief "successfully and richly" into one's life makes it true? (If so, then aren't Mormonism, Islam, Catholicism, Bahai, and many other religions true?)<br /><br />Also, be assured that I too have a life that is successful and rich, without incorporating the Gospel message into it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-62308933992848100172014-07-28T18:20:44.467-05:002014-07-28T18:20:44.467-05:00If there was any real concern in Washington for im...If there was any real concern in Washington for immigrants there would have been immigration reform that made coming into the U.S. easier some time ago.bubbatishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03712433866244070058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-5841796048564117922014-07-28T17:05:15.432-05:002014-07-28T17:05:15.432-05:00Ah, so you are telling a believer and a person of ...Ah, so you are telling a believer and a person of religious faith what it means to be a disciple of Christ and how to incorporate the Gospel message successfully and richly into his life, while you reject the message and don't have active experience incorporating it into your own daily life. <br /><br />You'll excuse me if I don't find your condescending judgment credible.Piercenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-78839591624285924682014-07-28T13:35:14.432-05:002014-07-28T13:35:14.432-05:00Pierce, I don't claim to be a follower of Jesu...Pierce, I don't claim to be a follower of Jesus. So why <i>would</i> I sell all my possessions and give the money to the poor?<br /><br />I understand the message of Jesus quite well, and I reject it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13530957731875522972014-07-28T11:22:44.967-05:002014-07-28T11:22:44.967-05:00Let me get this straight, Orbiting. You have come...Let me get this straight, Orbiting. You have come to the understanding of the message of Jesus, and you have sold all your possessions and given it all to the poor?<br /><br />For someone that has no computer, you sure keep up with blogs pretty well. Piercenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80165754441412192612014-07-28T09:52:16.896-05:002014-07-28T09:52:16.896-05:00When Jeff writes that "the ultimate answer to...When Jeff writes that "the ultimate answer to most problems is not in law and armies, but in the Gospel," and that "Whatever policies our nation adopts, let us love those who are in our midst," I have a glimmer of hope that maybe, just maybe, he will come to understand the whole Jesus thing, and finally understand how little it has to do with Mormonism and most other brands of Christianity. (Just the tiniest bit of hope, however. If Jeff ever does come to understand the message of Jesus, will he choose to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor? I doubt it.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-65468644660037905892014-07-27T20:24:34.565-05:002014-07-27T20:24:34.565-05:00Anonymous @10:04
Wouldn't it be wonderful if ...Anonymous @10:04<br /><br />Wouldn't it be wonderful if some fantastically rich multinational concern involved itself in the care of the poor and abatement of their poverty? Some ostensibly charitable concern that got tax exemption for it's supposed charitable acts, let's say. One that thought it had all the answers because they have officials who can speak directly to god. One that had a small army of strong young volunteers at its disposal. One that has a nearly inexhaustible income from not only it's generous faithful but it's extensive and profitable real estate and corporate holdings. <br /><br />Wouldn't that be wonderful!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77291496047837411632014-07-26T22:04:56.725-05:002014-07-26T22:04:56.725-05:00I have a lot of empathy for those that make the so...I have a lot of empathy for those that make the sojourn across the Southern border of the United States. The opportunities available to those that come are unparalleled, especially when compared to developing nations in the Western hemisphere. <br /><br />From a strictly rational perspective, the actions of parents south of the border may be a reflection of the true hopelessness of these impoverished nations, esp. for the 99% that do not have connections to power, wealth, much less clean water, basic sanitation, and safety from warring drug factions.<br /><br />If I were a parent in such circumstances, I might at least contemplate the same . . . again, noting the paucity and risk the child would face anyway. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-68775942062015187932014-07-26T13:32:05.216-05:002014-07-26T13:32:05.216-05:00They got a fence around the White House. I wonder ...They got a fence around the White House. I wonder why?<br /><br />Ever country needs a door that is only opened from the inside.<br /><br />We have doors on our homes. Does that make us not compassionate?Steve Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13251554325064300307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12808458224523231302014-07-26T08:51:13.413-05:002014-07-26T08:51:13.413-05:00"Interesting how relevant the so called "..."Interesting how relevant the so called "forgery of Joseph Smith" that too many critics call the Book of Mormon is today and will continue to help us understand the world as it is."<br /><br /> As it is? The BoM cannot even help us understand the world as it WAS. There isn't one piece of undisputed archeological proof that supports it as a work of antiquity. We can't even examine the what it was translated from, nothing exists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80387749943119197112014-07-25T08:33:51.843-05:002014-07-25T08:33:51.843-05:00If Mexico could reform its government in such a wa...If Mexico could reform its government in such a way that it could become economically powerful, there wouldn't be a problem. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41855410401813266152014-07-24T17:15:56.628-05:002014-07-24T17:15:56.628-05:00If you read George Friedmann's The Next 100 Ye...If you read George Friedmann's The Next 100 Years, he makes the possibility of in 2080 or so that after all these years of encouraging huge immigration to pay for Social Security and other baby boomer problems, a resurgent economically and military powerful Mexico may take back the Mexican Cession by sheer demographics, new Mexican nationalist/terrorist groups formed in regards to US deportations of citizens in the US even 50+ years, and mass protests,use of the national guard, etc, etc. He also points out that our increased secularism will continue to grow what we as Mormons call wickedness. As the US gets richer and wickeder, Mexico will get wealthier, more righteous (I won't judge), and more able to challenge the United States for control of both the Continent, and the world. Interesting how relevant the so called "forgery of Joseph Smith" that too many critics call the Book of Mormon is today and will continue to help us understand the world as it is.<br /><br />Your insightful commentary is appreciated. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com