tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post4646919617318891797..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Caring for the Poor--and Why I Pulled the Plug on a Failed PostJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46785493498031128102011-04-25T02:28:36.831-05:002011-04-25T02:28:36.831-05:00wow, I'm horribly late to this party. First o...wow, I'm horribly late to this party. First off, I think the concept of every person thinking more about how they can give and help those around them is fantastic. I think in some ways volunteers are more capable then a government entity to help the poor. <br /><br />I think it has an extent of it's ability though. While in a perfect world everyone would give enough and you wouldn't need a government, we don't live in that world. It'd be great if we didn't need law enforcement either but I don't see that being the case. Large scale societies suffer from a lot of problems when it comes to being self correcting because after a certain size the annonymity of the individual inspires them to take advantage or the faceless masses. In small groups the libertarian method works great, but that doesn't say much because lots of government styles (or a complete lack thereof will work in a communal setting. Sorry I'm going on a tangent here.<br /><br />Jeff, you stated this earlier:<br />"Dan, in saying that an increase in price lowers demand, what is meant is that holding other variables equal, the effect of increased price is to lower demand for labor." <br /><br />The problem I see with what you're proposing is in insinuating that all other variables stay the same. They don't. Increasing minimum wage changes the dynamics of the area. You seem to see the problems with this statement when looking that the points of views of others (for example when you pointed, correctly, that there are lots of other variables that were changed from 1941 and today that could account for the lower unemployment other then the minimum wage at the time. This issue is pretty complex to be deriving such a simplistic answer like "increasing minimum wage will increase employment" We can point to correlational statistics but as has been previously shown you can find contradictory studies that seem to point in either direction. Perhaps it's possible that the correaltion to the two is not direct in all cases but is sometime indirect. Perhaps there is a different factor that better correlates.Mateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18021537443072398547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90763831355943478452011-04-21T17:51:27.321-05:002011-04-21T17:51:27.321-05:00Jeff,
This is very good. I work for a Rescue Mis...Jeff,<br /><br />This is very good. I work for a Rescue Mission as Direct Services Manager, which means I oversee the distribution of food, clothing, and furniture to the poor and homeless. As an adolescent, my father was in a motorcycle accident that put us on Church welfare. The best part of being on Church welfare was the opportunity to go the orange groves the Church owned and help pick oranges for others in need. It was the best part because giving back helped my family's self-esteem. We weren't just takers, but when my dad got back to work we were contributors. It was a time in my life I will always remember.<br /><br />Sometimes, I think we struggle to give to the poor because we want to make judgment on the decisions they may have made in their lives that have caused them to be poor, homeless, needy, and dependent on others. Shame on us when we do that. We are not called to point fingers, but to help without worrying how the person got to such a place in their lives.<br /><br />There will always be a tension as you describe in which the question of whether or not we are enabling another person is posed. Sometimes what we give will be used for something that we don't support, such as alcohol and drug use. I don't think we should focus on that. That could make us crazy after a while and keep us from responding with a heart of compassion. The important thing is to touch another life with the same heart of compassion as God. <br /><br />Thank you for this wonderful article, Jeff. I was able to sense your heart of compassion, and it warmed my soul.<br /><br />Peace and blessings to you and your family on this week of amazing grace!jackgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45751481824620454292011-04-19T00:28:52.854-05:002011-04-19T00:28:52.854-05:00Hi Jeff,
I linked you from the "Wheat and Ta...Hi Jeff,<br /><br />I linked you from the "Wheat and Tares" Mormon blog, which has a lot of liberals (not all are liberals though and I don't know how many of the commenters were from there on your original post). Don't know if that is why you received a bad report from your first post that I linked to.<br /><br />I thought it was a great post and made lot's of sense. Really, there is nothing we can do to convince other people of our views. I've tried but really people have to be open minded and most of us aren't (including myself on certain things).<br /><br />Take for example the person that mentioned Head Start as a good program. The government itself has done studies showing that it doesn't work yet we continue to increase its funding. Not only that, but you can say that it does help break families apart by taking children away from families that otherwise would have to stay home with their children because they wouldn't be able to afford to work and send their children to daycare. I suppose you could say the same thing about government schools in general.<br /><br />Anyways I enjoy your blog (even if I disagree with your rare political points), keep up the good work.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05518762624199557168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39513928508414190742011-04-17T08:19:16.775-05:002011-04-17T08:19:16.775-05:00What is theft, RWW? Is taxation theft?What is theft, RWW? Is taxation theft?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27777913345976922632011-04-17T00:15:42.603-05:002011-04-17T00:15:42.603-05:00Theft is theft, whether the loot is completely squ...Theft is theft, whether the loot is completely squandered, or some of it is given to the poor. After 78 comments, no one has pointed out this basic principle yet? Very sad.RWWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25576128965756296572011-04-16T20:53:16.906-05:002011-04-16T20:53:16.906-05:00The Work Projects Administration and Civilian Cons...The Work Projects Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps did provide jobs. It hits me that of all the things created in the wake of the Great Depression -- Unemployment Insurance, Aid to Families with Dependent Children, and whatever else -- most have survived to this day, in one form or another. But, putting people to work? That was shuttled. <br /><br />That said, I read how a group called WPA Today and also Paul Krugman and his Job Party are suggesting the WPA be resurrected, 21st Century style -- and I quake, tremble and fear. At a time we are grappling to solve an out-of-control budget, we must not add to our woes. The WPA was the largest agency in the New Deal Administration. Expenditures were $11 billion in 1943.<br /><br />If instead of a WPA, we simply called on our rich to create new companies (companies just to provide jobs, not turn enormous profits), we could solve one problem without creating another.<br /><br />Closing note: Despite the WPA, the unemployment rate remained high even at the end of the 1930s. The WPA workers were not counted as part of the workforce (for whatever reason), but even if a correction of that is factored, unemployment still calculates out to about 10 percent in 1940. If you are attempting to get all willing and able-bodied souls into jobs, it should not be that high.John Jacksonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57541788689705326522011-04-16T18:28:23.815-05:002011-04-16T18:28:23.815-05:00Agreed. Isn't this more or less what was done ...Agreed. Isn't this more or less what was done during the Depression with the Works Projects Administration?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13706617235450407552011-04-16T17:05:49.162-05:002011-04-16T17:05:49.162-05:00The best solution to the welfare problem is to jus...The best solution to the welfare problem is to just give everyone jobs to begin with, but perhaps that would be considered socialism. I say, if it is the solution -- if it works -- do it, regardless what label it attracts. Nobody accused Joseph (the one sold into Egypt) of socialism when the government he directed stored food, and then doled it out.<br /><br />We run from the answer in the name of running from a label. Better that we embrace the good wherever it is found.<br /><br />Just give everyone a job. Create companies for those who are unemployed. We might not even need to have government being the force behind this. So, no socialism. Private enterprise can do it. Many of our richest people are also philanthropists. Many of them are fiercely patriotic. Most of them are already running companies that provide our employment. Yes, I think many WOULD respond if we called on them to create companies whose first objective was not to make a humongous profit, but simply to provide employment.John Jacksonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9474750465325928212011-04-16T16:34:40.129-05:002011-04-16T16:34:40.129-05:00@ Anonymous, whose opinions are as good as mine an...@ Anonymous, whose opinions are as good as mine and who I do not view as someone forwarding Satan's agenda:<br /><br />If a government policy exacerbates a problem then we should do what we can to mitigate the harm the policy is causing. I would apply this thought to our welfare program. Welfare was a solution our nation arrived at back in 1935, but the program created places people not only outside of work, but in a position where they become dependent on free care. We, the people, then have the obligation of calling on our legislators to insert work back into the equation.<br /><br />I did go back and briefly review the workfare history. Mayor Rudy Giuliani's efforts in New York drew praise at the time, but later resulted in charges that workfare workers were replacing city workers at lesser wages and drew charges of unfair labor practices. It seems like there had been national legislation ahead of Giuliani's effort, but I did not restudy long enough to know that. I did find that the landmark national legislation came in 1996. It was a product of the Contract for America, and the bill was signed into law by Bill Clinton, who hailed it as "the end of welfare as we know it."<br /><br />Among other things, TANF replaced AFDC.<br /><br />As much of a landmark as it may have been hailed to be at the time, I do not believe nearly enough has been done in replacing welfare with work.John Jacksonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-49558094455592726412011-04-16T15:55:30.726-05:002011-04-16T15:55:30.726-05:00Wow, Bookslinger! I've disagreed with Jeff (an...Wow, Bookslinger! I've disagreed with Jeff (and others, including many of his opponents), but I've never called anyone I've disagreed with a totalitarian, or accused them of doing Satan's work.<br /><br />That kind of talk strikes me as pretty rude. Jeff, I'm just curious -- do you agree with Bookslinger? Do you consider your verbal sparring partners to be totalitarian agents of Satan?<br /><br />P.S. Sometime after uttering the phrase "nattering nabobs of negativism," Spiro Agnew resigned the vice presidency in disgrace. He was a hateful and corrupt politician, hardly the sort of guy you really want to identify yourself with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-34602308523240088072011-04-16T12:00:35.197-05:002011-04-16T12:00:35.197-05:00Jeff, when are you going to learn? There are cert...Jeff, when are you going to learn? There are certain nattering nabobs of negativism out there who are going to twist and misconstrue whatever you write so that they can get on their high-horse to denounced Mormonism, or conservatism.<br /><br />It's a never-ending battle. And you'll never be able to write something that totally pleases them unless you AGREE with them. <br /><br />They are true totalitarians, doing Satan's work in the name of compassion.Bookslingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15077778974473538408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-40177424608241555012011-04-16T09:58:26.011-05:002011-04-16T09:58:26.011-05:00@ John Jackson -- I would like to suggest a genera...@ John Jackson -- I would like to suggest a general point of moral philosophy: to the extent the poverty rate is the result of conscious government policy (that is, <i>our</i> policy), then the government bears a moral responsibility (that is, <i>we</i> bear a moral responsibility) to help the poor. Things like the poverty rate are of course determined by many factors, only some of which are under human control. But if the we adopt a policy that knowingly exacerbates people's misfortunes in order to achieve other objectives (lowering inflation or whatever) then we have an obligation to mitigate the harm we have done. This is particularly true when the policies we adopt habitually benefit one segment of society at the expense of others. (I'm not making any claims here about specific policies--just a general point.)<br /><br />I base this on the general principle of taking responsibility for one's actions, of mitigating the harm one has knowingly brought about (or even passively allowed to happen). In theory, this is a pretty simple principle, though of course in practice it can get pretty gnarly.<br /><br />I bring this up to suggest that sometimes what are framed as government "handouts" might actually be collective moral obligations. Sometimes what people treat as purely technocratic matters, questions to be resolved purely by citing economic studies, sometimes have a moral dimension that transcends the purely economic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50485194857007934782011-04-16T09:29:57.967-05:002011-04-16T09:29:57.967-05:00Have, some, and note New York, noteably, institute...Have, some, and note New York, noteably, instituted it.John Jacksonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-51434925445610344212011-04-16T07:22:24.851-05:002011-04-16T07:22:24.851-05:00@ John Jackson: You might want to read up on "...@ John Jackson: You might want to read up on "workfare."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56697470098014441832011-04-15T23:59:15.286-05:002011-04-15T23:59:15.286-05:00May the post that was killed live forever as this ...May the post that was killed live forever as this thread never dies. (Just kidding, but 70 comments is a fair amount.)John Jacksonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57996790848520784792011-04-15T22:27:03.767-05:002011-04-15T22:27:03.767-05:00When my wife and I purchased our minivan, we felt ...When my wife and I purchased our minivan, we felt particularly led to consider it a consecrated vehicle. In the almost seven years we've owned it, we have used it to contribute greatly to LDS Emergency services as the church sent help after the seven hurricanes that hit the US in two years. We loaned it to a family whose only vehicle has blown an engine so the father could get to work, which allowed him to save enough to fix the truck eventually and return our van. We loaned it again to a friend whose van lost its engine during flooding in our area when his wife was literally pulled off the road by a powerful surge in a storm that came so suddenly the whole town was caught unawares. Finally we let another family borrow it while their much older van received repairs that allowed them to continue to use it. I am leaving my name off of this post because I am not concerned about credit: I want to say how blessed our family has been every single time we have so willingly responded to these needs without worrying about government assistance or church welfare. Each of the families we were able to help had already blessed our lives and continue to do so by their love and friendship, but even beyond their direct help, we have seen so many ways we have been supported in our own struggles. <br /><br />I love the spirit with which you wrote this post, Jeff, and I hope those who initially were bothere by it now see the goodness in your intention. There is so much more goodness in giving someone a hand up instead of a hand out. I have seen it from both sides (giving and receiving). We could all learn to do more to help each other up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73394055466397581292011-04-15T22:15:59.042-05:002011-04-15T22:15:59.042-05:00Some time ago, I wrote a blog post about the broke...Some time ago, I wrote a blog post about the broken state of our economy that has been effectively designed to avoid fixing itself. I promoted removing welfare and the minimum wage and putting welfare wages to use in programs that helped people "learn to fish" instead of live forever on what was provided. I still think our various systems have a lot to do with what is keeping the system from helping itself. These programs (both welfare and minimum wage) have a lot to do with the onslaught of illegal immigrants who come to this country to receive both government assistance and jobs that pay below minimum wage. Again, removing both would contribute greatly to helping right some of the wrongs of our present situation. Not that our government is willing to even consider such moves...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-44963921851447635612011-04-15T07:35:29.421-05:002011-04-15T07:35:29.421-05:00Anonymous,
You are assuming that I'm a fan of...Anonymous,<br /><br />You are assuming that I'm a fan of war, and that I am happy with never-ending wars and the deficit spending that finances them.<br /><br />I do not favor either.<br /><br />We need to drastically cut defense and entitlements if we are save our country. Contrary to your insinuations, this isn't fear-mongering. It's the god-awful truth. Democrats and collectivists refuse to acknowledge this. There is not enough money in the world to pay for a cradle-to-grave welfare state. There never has been.Michael W. Towns, Sr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02393617480343537715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21343582134553215732011-04-15T07:21:33.327-05:002011-04-15T07:21:33.327-05:00Here's a question I'd like Michael to answ...Here's a question I'd like Michael to answer: How do you propose to pay for the upcoming $400,000,000,000,000,000 in military costs? Huh?<br /><br />If I choose my time frame conveniently enough (say, from here to 2096) I can generate pretty much any kind of scary figure I want, which is a heck of a lot easier than framing an actual argument.<br /><br />The sensible approach is to tweak payments into and out of the SS system early on when you anticipate a demographic "egg" approaching--this is not rocket science; it's like managing any other fund, unless, of course, you're trying to gin up a sense of panic in the hopes of convincing people to privatize the system.<br /><br />BTW, "equality" in this context means "equality of opportunity," not the straw-man "equality of outcomes" which right-wing rhetoricians always accuse liberals of beliving in.<br /><br />The left believes in equality of opportunity. The right does not, but realizes the unpopularity of its position and so misrepresents itself as holding the position of its opponents, and its opponents of holding a position that is insane.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60543964802202281752011-04-15T01:25:10.793-05:002011-04-15T01:25:10.793-05:00"Paul Ryan's GOP proposal for Medicare is..."Paul Ryan's GOP proposal for Medicare is badly thought out. There is little debate that Medicare needs to be dealt with, but the question is how."<br /><br /><br /><br />Actually, Ryan's plan, while far from perfect, is the freshest breath of fiscal air from Washington in a long, long time.<br /><br />Here is a question that I want a liberal or a leftist to answer honestly: how do you really pay for the upcoming $40 trillion Social Security entitlements? <br /><br />There is not enough money in the world to pay for it. And just printing out the cash, Bernanke style, will make us all paupers in the end.Michael W. Towns, Sr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02393617480343537715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-58799073594601052202011-04-15T01:22:45.988-05:002011-04-15T01:22:45.988-05:00"It's all about liberty, not equality. An..."It's all about liberty, not equality. And why not? If you're already on top, what do you care about equality? "<br /><br /><br />I love it! There is only ONE way to bring about equality. And that is the pure, unadulterated use of force and coercion.<br /><br />"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"....The framers didn't talk a lot about equality because they understood that it's a false god. Whether pursued in the Soviet Union in the past, or Venezuela currently, equality really means a Midas lifestyle for the enlightened at the top and misery for everyone else.Michael W. Towns, Sr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02393617480343537715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53024407895413937402011-04-13T16:44:26.821-05:002011-04-13T16:44:26.821-05:00What personal liberty do I have to demand equal pa...<i>What personal liberty do I have to demand equal pay for equal work with a man?</i><br /><br /><i>What personal liberty do I have that I can demand equal pay to a white man?</i><br /><br />NONE! You have to understand that, from the perspective of the libertarian or "small government conservative," equality of the sort you're talking about here doesn't count for jack.<br /><br />From the perspective of the libertarian or "small government conservative," individuals SHOULD be free to discriminate on the basis of sex, race, religion, etc. as much as they want to. The government should not infringe upon that liberty by forcing them to treat men/women/blacks/Mormons/you name it equally. I should be free to hang up a sign at the door of my business saying, "No dogs or Mormons allowed." True, the market might punish me for doing that (or not, depending on local attitudes), but the government should not punish me for doing it.<br /><br />From the perspective of the libertarian or "small government conservative," if you're a member of a historically disadvantaged group, you're just out of luck. Use the back door, buddy. The front door is only for whites.<br /><br />Republicans don't necessarily believe that sort of thing is <i>right</i>, but it's intrinsic to their philosophy that such a thing be <i>permitted</i>.<br /><br />It's no accident that Republicans are disproportionately white and male and well-off. It's a consequence of their basic conception of the proper role of government. It's all about liberty, not equality. And why not? If you're already on top, what do you care about equality?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-49124433736051937512011-04-13T05:21:09.651-05:002011-04-13T05:21:09.651-05:00Jeff,
Given what we have to work with right now, ...Jeff,<br /><br /><i>Given what we have to work with right now, though, I lean toward the side of personal liberty to resolve how things should be allocated.</i><br /><br />Just one more thought on this. You say "personal liberty" should be the main guiding force behind resolving how things should be allocated. Who's personal liberty? The worker's? How could the worker be able to demand the right pay for his labors? Let's go back to those utopian days before "big government" got in the way for a few examples.<br /><br />1. If I were a guy with a wife and two kids living in, say, West Virginia, how much personal liberty do I have to demand a safe working environment and a decent pay to work in the mines? <br /><br />2. If I were a teenager (we're not even gonna go into the "personal liberty" debate over child labor...I'm sure we're both in agreement that back in those heady days of true personal liberty, our society was wrong in working children to death...) how much personal liberty do I have to demand more than pennies for my labor? <br /><br />3. I'm a woman, not yet married, but away from the parents trying to live life. What personal liberty do I have to demand equal pay for equal work with a man?<br /><br />4. I'm an African American living in Mississippi. I've got a wife and three kids at home. I don't have much of an education, but I want to work hard and will do whatever is necessary to bring home the bacon, so to speak. What personal liberty do I have that I can demand equal pay to a white man?<br /><br />Or is personal liberty just something important for the manager or the business owner?Danhttp://thegooddemocrat.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76654658365521162182011-04-12T23:39:52.158-05:002011-04-12T23:39:52.158-05:00Jeff,
You use the words "personal liberty&qu...Jeff,<br /><br />You use the words "personal liberty" as if my position is against it. I think "personal liberty" has become a catchall word to mean whatever one wants it to mean and fit some ideology. Liberalism is not statism, or corporatism, and is certainly not against personal liberty, no matter how conservatives frame the debate.Danhttp://thegooddemocrat.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89981064439994607752011-04-12T22:51:50.818-05:002011-04-12T22:51:50.818-05:00Some external help, that is. Not always. Mostly wh...Some external help, that is. Not always. Mostly when stupidly implemented and done without considering the long-term consequences and actual costs.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.com