tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post4802429814989244274..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Hilarious Anti-Mormon Attack from the Conservative Voice: The Danger of Letting Google Do Your ThinkingJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25335904713135227902008-07-13T10:06:00.000-05:002008-07-13T10:06:00.000-05:00Jeff,you are doing a great work!Jeff,<BR/><BR/>you are doing a great work!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30040014356643836472008-06-18T13:06:00.000-05:002008-06-18T13:06:00.000-05:00UPDATE: Over a month later, Swank's column is sti...UPDATE: Over a month later, Swank's column is still there. Ironically, the "Ads by Google" at the bottom of the page include a link to an article in the www.lds.org newsroom. Here's the text of the ad on Swank's page:<BR/><BR/>"Polygamy in the News:<BR/>Church has no affiliation with polygamists - Read more here"<BR/><BR/>As I said, the link goes to an official statement on www.lds.org.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50033663193290712662008-05-19T16:21:00.000-05:002008-05-19T16:21:00.000-05:00There have been times and throughout the Bible whe...There have been times and throughout the Bible where polygamy was clearly authorized by the Lord. To completely condemn the practice you also be condemning Old Testement prophets like Moses and Abraham. There are also clearly times in the scriptures where the Lord chastens people for practicing unauthorized plural marriage. The Book of Mormon has the Nephites being condemned at one point. My take on it is we try to follow what the Lord would have us follow. He knows what is best for us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-69755760934001701072008-05-18T13:29:00.000-05:002008-05-18T13:29:00.000-05:00That's what people get for "piece-mealing" informa...That's what people get for "piece-mealing" information and reading everything. What happened is an exact reflection of what they do with the doctrine: they only read enough to get the information they were looking for at the outset.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85246676694928615642008-05-15T14:32:00.000-05:002008-05-15T14:32:00.000-05:00People like Swank aren't interested in being accur...People like Swank aren't interested in being accurate or providing anythng even close to the truth. Credibility is relative. It is like the left wing radicals and thier moral relativism. It is "the truth is whatever I want it to be when I want it".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53217456197389943352008-05-14T22:16:00.000-05:002008-05-14T22:16:00.000-05:00I'll add my vote to the "both" category. I think ...I'll add my vote to the "both" category. I think that polygamy had served its purposes, and it was clearly time to move on. <BR/><BR/>My reading of the Manifesto ending polygamy is that it wasn't actually commanded that it be given up. There was a distinctive <I>choice</I> that the Lord gave to President Woodruff -- either continue polygamy as before and risk annihilation (which doesn't help God's purposes out very much), or give it up in exchange for peace. Perhaps the choice was a little loaded given the circumstances, but President Woodruff made the choice that God wanted him to make. <BR/><BR/>The elements of agency and choice are subtle ones, but important to note in the discussion of polygamy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-86011188757332275302008-05-12T15:41:00.000-05:002008-05-12T15:41:00.000-05:00As with Peter I would also say it was due to both....As with Peter I would also say it was due to both. I think it was probably one of the harder decisions our leadership has had to make simply because it was a decision they were forced to make because of the circumstances. That being Said I think that they did receive revelation that rather then going to war with the US government, that they complied with it and I believe that Utah being granted statehood because of it has been a greater blessing then is possible to measure for the Church and its members.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27867762300207475912008-05-11T19:31:00.000-05:002008-05-11T19:31:00.000-05:00Hi Kevin, It is very possible that it was due to b...Hi Kevin, <BR/><BR/>It is very possible that it was due to both. As we see in history there was the pressure but also revelation to stop the practice of polygamy. From what I recall of things I have read, the Saints were still practicing until the declaration was given. Because our <A HREF="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1" REL="nofollow">Articles of Faith</A> declare that we will be subject to law I believe that God would and does direct us in accordance with the law.<BR/><BR/>PeterPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03703965785236123679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9525021959427314282008-05-11T19:30:00.000-05:002008-05-11T19:30:00.000-05:00Funny. You saw the folks in TX don't represent you...Funny. You saw the folks in TX don't represent you want to criticize theconservativevoice.com about a column on its site. What is different here? If you belong to the Mormon church are you then a child molester or are there some child molesters who happen to be mormons? From the argument presented on this blog all Mormon's are child molesters because of the remarks about Swank and theconservativevoice.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-5089083756603595042008-05-11T18:18:00.000-05:002008-05-11T18:18:00.000-05:00Thanks for the responses. I recognize that there a...Thanks for the responses. I recognize that there are varying Mormon opinions on this. I was just curious if anyone noticed any sort of consensus on the matter.<BR/><BR/>If the the law against polygamy was created with the intention of bigotry or destroying the LDS way of life, what does this mean for the revelatory aspect of doing away with the practice?<BR/><BR/>Was it abandoned because the government was bullying Utah or because of divine revelation? Both perhaps?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-29639234789780356692008-05-11T14:42:00.000-05:002008-05-11T14:42:00.000-05:00Your question is really hard to answer this time k...Your question is really hard to answer this time kevin and I'll share my views on it but they are just that my views as I cannot speak for the church or its other members in any official capacity. In short with me it is somewhere in the middle. I personaly would never want to practice it as I am very happy with just one wife. This of course is due solely to the romanization of our culture. At the same time I have a real problem with laws that were created with only religious bigotry in mind. Considering every religion including main stream Christianity practiced or practices polygamy I have a problem saying that its immoral. From a an economical stand point it also makes more sense then staying in only one monogomous relationship. So the problem I have is that it's illegal behind a farce that was firmly set in place in the late 1800s specifically meant to demonize and try to destroy the saints. Yet it was and should have remained moral as there is nothing close to prohibiting its practice in the constitution. At the same time I feel that the FLDS should have taken it to the supreme court a long time ago and sought out legal ways to change the laws rather then ignoring them. So that's just my two cents. While I would never be able to practice it I believe anyone where all the participants are willing and of legal age of course, should be allowed to. Sorry for any grammer or typos.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-58969876599810078872008-05-11T14:32:00.000-05:002008-05-11T14:32:00.000-05:00Are Mormons pro-polygamy or anti-polygamy? Or is i...<I>Are Mormons pro-polygamy or anti-polygamy? Or is it somewhere in the middle? I'm still confused about this. I know the official stance, but can anyone tell me the more realistic/practical Mormon position on it? <B>I get confused with all of the conflicting comments on it. </B>Most seem sympathetic towards it, but I know Jeff has difficulty with the idea. Just curious.</I><BR/><BR/>Kevin, I think you answered your question when you wrote the bolded sentence. There is no "Mormon" position on the FLDS or polygamy - I think that opinions of Mormons are all over the map.<BR/><BR/>Speaking for myself, while I find the FLDS practice of polygamy abhorrent and think that there are ample grounds for concern over the children involved, I also have a deep sympathy for the legal rights a people who have just had the government unload on them with a sledgehammer because of their religion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53894089247152838722008-05-11T11:39:00.000-05:002008-05-11T11:39:00.000-05:00"The anti-polygamy Left has two goals. (in my opin..."The anti-polygamy Left has two goals. (in my opinion)<BR/><BR/>1. Deny women the right to choose who they have babies with.<BR/>2. Water down the Genocide Statute.<BR/><BR/>Underlying it all is a vicious hostility toward Western Civilization."<BR/><BR/>A lot of people think that polygamy does deny women the right to choose who they have babies with. This aversion to the "Left" sounds more like paranoia than anything substantial.<BR/><BR/>Are Mormons pro-polygamy or anti-polygamy? Or is it somewhere in the middle? I'm still confused about this. I know the official stance, but can anyone tell me the more realistic/practical Mormon position on it? I get confused with all of the conflicting comments on it. Most seem sympathetic towards it, but I know Jeff has difficulty with the idea. Just curious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30999344732026660812008-05-10T06:06:00.000-05:002008-05-10T06:06:00.000-05:00The anti-polygamy Left has two goals. (in my opini...The anti-polygamy Left has two goals. (in my opinion)<BR/><BR/>1. Deny women the right to choose who they have babies with.<BR/>2. Water down the Genocide Statute.<BR/><BR/>Underlying it all is a vicious hostility toward Western Civilization.Doug Forbeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672434922650800374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-59341377650559118002008-05-10T06:00:00.000-05:002008-05-10T06:00:00.000-05:00Texas news station reports on 24 year old FLDS wom...Texas news station reports on 24 year old FLDS woman held as minor.<BR/><BR/>http://flds-news.newslib.com/story/7739-1019/Doug Forbeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672434922650800374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46407269510800068302008-05-10T02:52:00.000-05:002008-05-10T02:52:00.000-05:00classic. :)classic. :)bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17349761150589167152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-78242425198851627742008-05-09T22:43:00.000-05:002008-05-09T22:43:00.000-05:00There is plenty of outrage among us Mormons over t...There is plenty of outrage among us Mormons over the FLDS problems. But we also find outrage over the violation of their constitutional rights and the religious bigotry that is being used against us as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-59720911298428019262008-05-09T15:00:00.000-05:002008-05-09T15:00:00.000-05:00I saw that Grant Swank, on his blog, cited his Mas...I saw that Grant Swank, on his blog, cited his Masters in Theology as infallibility for his position and that any complaining about his labeling the LDS as a cult is irrelevant because he is smarter than anyone that would complain about his position. I wonder what his emphasis was in his theological training? Obviously, well documented research was not part of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-54393825603424882462008-05-09T14:18:00.000-05:002008-05-09T14:18:00.000-05:00"The truth about the FLDS is that they are a lot l..."The truth about the FLDS is that they are a lot like the mainstream in terms of teen sex."<BR/><BR/>This sidesteps the real question issue though: is it OK that teens are having so much sex?<BR/><BR/>I know that the FLDS calls them marriages, but when they are (illegal)polygamous marriages involving underage girls, the FLDS becomes an institution actively promoting teen sex or sex between teenagers and adults. That is far more problematic for me than two non-FLDS consenting teens using contraception, even if it goes against their parents' wishes. The FLDS could be going against a 15 year old girl's wishes.<BR/><BR/>"Most of that 31 are women in there 20s and have drivers licenses and birth certificates to prove it."<BR/><BR/>This doesn't change the fact that there are very very young girls "married" and having sex with adults. <BR/><BR/>Even if we accept that marrying young isn't necessarily a bad thing, I think we can all agree that it is problematic when the woman is unable to make her own decision about the matter without being presented with other options and we know that women are being "assigned" to husbands in the FLDS.<BR/><BR/>Instead of outrage at this situation, I see more sympathy and defense from mainstream Mormons, when this clearly goes against the church's teachings.<BR/><BR/>Why the complacency? This isn't meant as an attack; I just don't understand the typical LDS response to this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56868223037547334682008-05-08T19:43:00.000-05:002008-05-08T19:43:00.000-05:00The truth about the FLDS is that they are a lot li...The truth about the FLDS is that they are a lot like the mainstream in terms of teen sex.<BR/>There are 27 FLDS girls aged 15-17 and 8 are married in the eyes of the FLDS and thus sexually active. That is 29.6%. According to the National Center for Disease Statistics (NCDS), 30% of American girls 15-17 are sexually active nationwide. The NCDS further reports tha<BR/>5.7% of girls have sex before they turn 14 nationawide (this is the USA folks not the FLDS)<BR/>13.0% before 15<BR/>26.8% before 16<BR/>43.1% before 17 and<BR/>58.0% before 18.<BR/>31.5% of girls 15-19 use contraceptives. There were 212,000 teen abortions in 2002 and 351,000 in 1995. About 2% of girls 15-17 give birth every year.<BR/><BR/>The FLDS looks good when compared to the nation asa whole. Texas does not. The Lone Star state tends to run 33% higher than the national average in teen sex related stats.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Yes I know the Texas CPS claims there are 53 FLDS girls 16-17 years old and 31 are pregnant or mothers. Most of that 31 are women in there 20s and have drivers licenses and birth certificates to prove it. Whatch carefully because the news media will "forget" to report the truth when it comes out as prominently as they reported the lies.Doug Forbeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12672434922650800374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14127457857330696752008-05-08T09:41:00.000-05:002008-05-08T09:41:00.000-05:00"Oh brother" is all I can say. Oh brother."Oh brother" is all I can say. Oh brother.Michelle Glauserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01646213573761736892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3016965427918782332008-05-08T09:27:00.000-05:002008-05-08T09:27:00.000-05:00anon@2:23 said:What I've noticed is that different...anon@2:23 said:<BR/><I>What I've noticed is that different people have different assumptions. Mormons have some subtle and not-so-subtle differences in assumptions, which is why it appears that we have a *different vocabulary*.<BR/>...<BR/>it really is worthwhile to stop complaining about the differences, and take the time to understand another individual's world-view to help foster meaningful dialogue.</I><BR/><BR/>++ <BR/><BR/>I also get the feeling that all too often people talk past each other instead of trying to understand each other. You've just said it more clearly than I did.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16637903015592683300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-82714228627812221482008-05-08T04:23:00.000-05:002008-05-08T04:23:00.000-05:00It depends on what you're talking about. In my op...It depends on what you're talking about. In my opinion, and experience, I've found it's not that different words mean different things. What I've noticed is that different people have different assumptions. Mormons have some subtle and not-so-subtle differences in assumptions, which is why it appears that we have a *different vocabulary*. As far as I know, everyone has different assumptions, and I've seen Christians from different denominations talk with each other and appear to be using *different vocabulary*, but in reality, they just have different assumptions being made concerning the topics they bring up. I don't think that it is so much a Mormon / Christian misunderstanding as it is a general miscommunication problem between people. Mormons, on average, tend to have more different assumptions concerning the various topics of discussion than various Protestant relgions do with each other, so naturally, more misunderstandings tend to occur. The fact of the matter is, there are people out there who take our beliefs, sometimes accurate and sometimes not-so-accurate, and impugn there own assumptions on them to make them seem just down right weird. They aren't interested in understanding where we come from. If you want to have meaningful dialogue with someone who doesn't share the same world-view as you, you *should* take time to define terms and understand the underlying assumptions. Otherwise you come off as callous, and don't appear to actually care about the individual at all. All that does is stir a spirit of contention, and in no way helps to give useful discourse. Sorry for the lengthy reply, but it sometimes just frustrates me when I hear people complain about a *different vocabulary*. Hopefully I haven't offended. I just think that, sometimes, it really is worthwhile to stop complaining about the differences, and take the time to understand another individual's world-view to help foster meaningful dialogue. That's just my two cents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37284028172323700832008-05-07T22:20:00.000-05:002008-05-07T22:20:00.000-05:00- Exploiting differences in vocabulary, playing wo...- Exploiting differences in vocabulary, playing word games, asking loaded questions, etc. to trap and confuse others.<BR/><BR/>I have found that there are differences in vocabulary between Mormon and Christian language. How is a Mormon and a Christian supposed to have a conversation about their various beliefs if the language they each speak is different? You almost have to define terms when a lot of the words are the same but have different meanings. Otherwise one person is thinking the other is talking about the same thing when in reality they are not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-54951502805149922132008-05-07T14:18:00.000-05:002008-05-07T14:18:00.000-05:00Jeff, Thanks for putting a smile on my face. This...Jeff, Thanks for putting a smile on my face. This story will have me chuckling at least until the end of the week.Dan Olsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03478846532686229790noreply@blogger.com