tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post5743981170884992537..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Our Faith in Christ on the Line: How Do We Respond to Our Enemies in California or Anywhere?Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-7013151828616467782008-11-16T17:00:00.000-06:002008-11-16T17:00:00.000-06:00Nothing wrong with positive ethnocentrism : )Nothing wrong with positive ethnocentrism : )Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63135550761822887932008-11-16T12:44:00.000-06:002008-11-16T12:44:00.000-06:00Roxy, I appreciate your pointing that out. I am ....Roxy, I appreciate your pointing that out. I am . . . um . . . a senior citizen--<BR/><BR/>and things HAVE changed, I am sure, in the last few decades--<BR/><BR/>I think I was speaking of "traditional" hispanic culture, which I know has its gaps as well as any other culture--<BR/><BR/>The point that cultures newly arrived to the U.S. from areas in the South Pacific and Asia tend to be more connected with their families and find "our" culture less family-friendly--<BR/><BR/>probably applied to hispanics more decades ago than now (*blush*)--<BR/><BR/>As "everyone" becomes Americanized, modernized (moving away from families for jobs, etc.)--every culture suffers loss of family connection--<BR/><BR/>no matter what ethnic origin--<BR/><BR/>People of Pacific Island ancestry, however, do tend to be more "protective" of things which are "sacred"--in an open way--<BR/><BR/>so I can see the why behind the behavior of those young men, even if I wouldn't have done it myself--<BR/><BR/>just trying, ALWAYS trying, not to be ethnocentric--<BR/><BR/>:)<BR/><BR/>suzyqAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-82221229196767002582008-11-16T10:21:00.000-06:002008-11-16T10:21:00.000-06:00Congratulations to the Mormon church for standing ...Congratulations to the Mormon church for standing up for your beliefs. I have been deeply disappointed with the Christian church for basically being AWOL on most issues regarding homosexuality. The church's silence assisted the advancement of the gay rights agenda. <BR/><BR/>I was born and raised as a Baptist. Gay men worked in the music ministries, with children. I was appalled. <BR/><BR/>I am now a practicing Muslim. No such issues where I worshipHillynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02055986063748532670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13190089760526983232008-11-16T00:03:00.000-06:002008-11-16T00:03:00.000-06:00When does become appropriate to write letters to t...When does become appropriate to write letters to the Gov Schwernegger and Sen Feinstein about asking the government to enforce the law and protect our churches and businesses from harassment and vandalism?<BR/><BR/>Their silence on this issue is providing encourage to the other side to continue to break the law.MainTourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309793272234493219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-2230490068062831562008-11-15T19:42:00.000-06:002008-11-15T19:42:00.000-06:00"There are clear examples of vandalism to the Temp..."There are clear examples of vandalism to the Temple's entrance." <BR/>Yes, that is correct, and as was stated earlier, that is vandalism. No one said the temple was not vandalized.<BR/><BR/>"As for removal of signs being a hate crime -- absolute absurdity. If you place a sign on private property, the owner has every right to remove it. "<BR/>No one said that was a hate crime. Absurd is correct, I don't know what you are talking about.<BR/>Jeff said the signs were vandalism, they were not. <BR/>Jeff said the old lady was victum of hate crime, I and others do not see a "hate crime". A crime against her, sure, you could charge those people with something. isn't right for them to stomp on her cross. But to say hate crime is to rile people up. Inflammatory language like that won't help. Best to be accurate in describing the situation so as to not make it worse. I don't think the old lady made the situation any better by her actions. <BR/><BR/>The only hate crime that is being charged, as no one has shown evidence of any other, is the video that was posted. LDS members are being charged for beating some protestors.<BR/>I think you were right to stay out of the whole 8 prop thing, as you came to the party late and do not know what was said.<BR/><BR/>" LDS Church made the right decision in an effort to preserve its own rights, rights which (it is now clear to me) the gay community would love to strip away in the name of equality and tolerance"<BR/><BR/>Yeah, LDS church is the victim here. You guys play the martyr so well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-91010366915358839792008-11-15T16:19:00.000-06:002008-11-15T16:19:00.000-06:00Anon, 11:15 AM, Nov. 15,I was not offended by your...Anon, 11:15 AM, Nov. 15,<BR/><BR/>I was not offended by your comment so my apologies for coming off that way. I didn't want to comment on it because I was off-topic, but I did anyway. <BR/><BR/>I guess I wish my folks were a bit more protective for many reasons. But hey, I think I can be pretty tough so it's all good. <BR/><BR/>I just haven't met any Hispanic women who received a lot of support from others during pregnency and what not. But I'll take your word for it.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, drifting now more towards the topic, I know what I'll do is try to love them even if they might spit in my face or beat me up or whatever. It's not going to be easy, though. Forgiving people and loving them when you have been wronged by them. Ayayay...my head hurts just thinking about it. But it is a commandment and one that I cannot ignore. <BR/><BR/>I pray for those that are angry with the Church and the members. I just hope that no one gets seriously hurt because of Prop 8. I hope that the members don't get driven by hate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23858483328057166362008-11-15T13:15:00.000-06:002008-11-15T13:15:00.000-06:00Roxie, I know that there are Hispanic and white "c...Roxie, I know that there are Hispanic and white "children" who have come from abusive backgrounds, negligent parents, etc.<BR/><BR/>I am white, and I am married to a white person who came from an unspeakably abused and neglected background--<BR/><BR/>Generally speaking, though, outside of the obvious exceptions to all ethnic groups, Hispanic women get a lot more support for childbirth, etc.--<BR/><BR/>I can't quote the sources, because I've forgotten them, but poverty aside, Hispanic mothers generally have fewer health issues when birthing, due to the support of other women and extended family--<BR/><BR/>Yes, I, too, have known Hispanics without close families; I have lived in areas with high numbers of Hispanics--<BR/><BR/>and for the most part *I* observed closer extended families and more emotional support--<BR/><BR/>I am sorry if I offended you--<BR/><BR/>I am talking more about the cultural mores on dating and marriage that DID protect my Hispanic friends. Some might think they were overprotected, but most of my friends admitted that they liked the idea of more protective parents--<BR/><BR/>White American "dating" has probably spread to all races, but there was a time when Hispanic girls WERE more protected--<BR/><BR/>there are always exceptions.<BR/><BR/>I DO know someone in a high position of authority in the church (very personally) in California who is white and who had minority church leaders come to him with "concerns" about the influence that more "independent" white LDS youth have had on the more family-dependent minority youth IN the church--<BR/><BR/>obviously we don't all have access to the same information and the same experiences--<BR/><BR/>It's amusing, though, how we both seem to be impressed with the "race" of the other--<BR/><BR/>:)<BR/><BR/>and my best friend in high school was STRONGLY Hispanic; I am still in touch with her after decades, and I admired the closeness of her family--Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-44348566633533542832008-11-15T08:08:00.000-06:002008-11-15T08:08:00.000-06:00Anonymous of 9:31 and 10:19 -- please view some of...Anonymous of 9:31 and 10:19 -- please view some of the pictures at this link: http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/2008/11/14/tolerance-iv/<BR/><BR/>There are clear examples of vandalism to the Temple's entrance.<BR/><BR/>As for removal of signs being a hate crime -- absolute absurdity. If you place a sign on private property, the owner has every right to remove it. <BR/><BR/>I've actually tried staying out of the whole Prop 8 issue, and am admittedly agnostic on SSM. But the temper tantrum that is being thrown, complete with examples of vandalism and blacklists against people who contributed money to Prop 8, has started to convince me that the LDS Church made the right decision in an effort to preserve its own rights, rights which (it is now clear to me) the gay community would love to strip away in the name of equality and tolerance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-58124371337428785782008-11-14T18:20:00.000-06:002008-11-14T18:20:00.000-06:00Um..I'd like to know where I can find out that mos...Um..I'd like to know where I can find out that mostly African Americans and Hispanics voted for Obama, because from what I remember hearing, the majority of the people that voted for him were African American and White. <BR/><BR/>And I know this is off topic and all, but in response to something that some anon said, the first thing I realized when I first joined the church was how loving and caring the families were. I'm Hispanic so I'm speaking for myself and most of the Latinos I know when I say that we aren't as family-centered as you might think. Almost all of my friends are Hispanic and most of them have had it rough growing up not having the support you would expect to get from your own family. Not getting enough care and safety you would want and need. Not saying that all Latinos are the same.<BR/><BR/>The famiies I met that are members treat me as if I am one of their own. I've learned a lot from them and the church and one day I want to have a family of my own and give my children what I would've liked to have received from my family. Well a little more than what I have received. Okay a lot more. <BR/><BR/>So please don't get it twisted. I think your just seeing things your way. And if anything I said is incorrect then by all means, feel free to correct me. I am here to learn.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53356783598549981352008-11-14T08:35:00.000-06:002008-11-14T08:35:00.000-06:00suzyq should have said:WHITE Mormons with college ...suzyq should have said:<BR/><BR/>WHITE Mormons with college degrees, returned missionary types . . .<BR/><BR/>aren't getting married as young or in as high numbers as in the past--<BR/><BR/>there are Mormons of different ethnic backgrounds and in different parts of the world and Christians of non-white backgrounds who are still having fairly high birthrates--<BR/><BR/>this old white woman will acknowledge the death of her dominant race and go away and make room for a different world now--Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-44784180441857687492008-11-14T08:30:00.000-06:002008-11-14T08:30:00.000-06:00suzyq says:It's really easy for me as a white coll...suzyq says:<BR/><BR/>It's really easy for me as a white college-educated, sometimes "liberal" Mormon who is anti-war to say that it's wrong for someone to react with violence against the protesters at the temple (having just watched the video linked by anonymous)--<BR/><BR/>As a white Mormon who is anti-war and likes to see all sides and eschews ethnocentricity . . .<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't have done that.<BR/><BR/>But didn't anyone else notice who the young men who ripped up the signs were?<BR/><BR/>Um, some sort of Pacific Island ethnicity?<BR/><BR/>Not typical white Mormons--<BR/><BR/>So . . .<BR/><BR/>this could get a bit sticky.<BR/><BR/>I was sad at the language they used; I was truly sorry that they attacked a woman; it made me feel badly.<BR/><BR/>But there was something in my pre-tolerant *look at all sides and don't be a bigot life* that responded with--<BR/><BR/>"good for them"--<BR/><BR/>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR/><BR/>They responded from the gut, because that is THEIR CULTURE!!!<BR/><BR/>While we spend our time apologizing to everyone in the world and trying not to step on any toes--<BR/><BR/>the Polynesians (Samoans) with their VERY different culture, ripped up the signs and beat a woman (something that Samoans are very good at doing by the way, and does anyone else see how I am throwing my political correctness out the window even as I say that)--<BR/><BR/>Seriously, doesn't ANYone else out there realize that this isn't just homosexuals against heterosexuals?<BR/><BR/>MOST of the homosexual protesters are alarmingly, astoundingly--<BR/><BR/>WHITE!!!<BR/><BR/>And it was Hispanics, Polynesians and African Americans who turned out to vote for Obama (according to exit polls) who voted proposition 8 in--<BR/><BR/>I would say that Americans of European descent (white) are embroiled together in a conflict that refelcts upon OUR culture--<BR/><BR/>Polynesian cultures simply don't tolerate homosexuality, nor do Hispanics, nor do African Americans--not the TRADITIONAL cultures--<BR/><BR/>Californian Christians that I know find themselves (the white ones) often criticized for our weakness on family values, yes, even Mormons--<BR/><BR/>traditional cultures (Hispanic and Polynesian especially) are MUCH more family-centered and think that European extraction Christians AND Mormons are sadly lacking in family connection--<BR/><BR/>so, it's time for white people to . . .<BR/><BR/>get lost--<BR/><BR/>whatEVER our sexual orientation--<BR/><BR/>hey, Mormons aren't marrying and having children that much anymore, and homosexuals aren't, exactly, reproducing in record numbers--<BR/><BR/>maybe it's time that we, with our tolerance and our carefully calculated lack of passion . . .<BR/><BR/>pass the torch to someone who can get the job done--<BR/><BR/>I am wondering how many of us would have stood aghast as Christ drove the money changers out of the temple with a whip--<BR/><BR/>and said, "naughty Jesus"--<BR/><BR/>could this be the remant of the tribe of Judah coming in to rip us (whites) up--whether Mormon or irreligious, homosexual or heterosexual?<BR/><BR/>at least they are real--<BR/><BR/>horrific, sure, but real--<BR/><BR/>frightening to me personally, yes, but real--<BR/><BR/>:(<BR/><BR/>our tolerance has come back to bite us--or to weaken us so that somebody who doesn't have the patience to carry out long discussions on this on a computer . . . ignites the spark that starts the fire--<BR/><BR/>what is the Book of Mormon scripture about the remnant coming as a young lion--<BR/><BR/>didn't say they would be using politically correct language or watching that they softened their blows when they "tore"--Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-779419021187742008-11-14T08:23:00.000-06:002008-11-14T08:23:00.000-06:00Clark Goble said:"Our Faith in Christ on the Line:...Clark Goble said:<I><BR/>"Our Faith in Christ on the Line: How Do We Respond to Our Enemies in California or Anywhere?"<BR/><BR/>Step 1. Stop calling them enemies.<BR/>Step 2. Start calling them potential members.</I><BR/><BR/>Clark, I'm puzzled - and sorry if I've offended you. Who's calling them potential members? Your comments are directed at me, I believe, but I have not called them "potential members." My post may not be quite as condescending as you think. Maybe I'm just not good at avoiding eggshells. <BR/><BR/>Maybe camouflaged eggshells?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13588474609563384842008-11-14T01:03:00.000-06:002008-11-14T01:03:00.000-06:00Wow, that's outrageous. If Mormons responded with ...Wow, that's outrageous. If Mormons responded with violence, it's terrible. No sympathy for violence. I don't mind people removing graffiti or signs from the Church's private property, but emotions must be kept in check and ugly situations avoided. <BR/><BR/>This is a time when Mormons should probably stay clear of these kind of protests and let things cool down.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89038723061655329822008-11-14T00:19:00.000-06:002008-11-14T00:19:00.000-06:00Vandalism according to the dictionary is: Vandal...Vandalism according to the dictionary is:<BR/> Vandalism is a conspicuous defacement or destruction of a structure, a symbol or anything else that goes against the will of the owner/governing body, and usually constitutes a crime.<BR/><BR/>No destruction of property here, no defacement of the structure. And no crime. Sorry, I think you are really trying your best, but, don't think you are right.<BR/><BR/>To all those that keep saying hate crime. Please post the link where those protestors are being charged with it. If you can't find one, then, go file a complaint yourself. Actions speak louder than words. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17962773085507651732008-11-14T00:15:00.000-06:002008-11-14T00:15:00.000-06:00NQFA... LOLJeff, thank you for never losing your s...NQFA... LOL<BR/><BR/>Jeff, thank you for never losing your sense of humor. Your humor and wit is appreciated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-42786178551884621272008-11-14T00:10:00.000-06:002008-11-14T00:10:00.000-06:00Anon 9:31 - How disingenuous of you. Clearly Jeff ...Anon 9:31 - How disingenuous of you. Clearly Jeff is referencing different occasions, one where a woman had her sign and cross ripped out of her hands and stomped into the ground while the angry spittle-spewing mob crowded around her ordering her to leave public property.<BR/><BR/>And another where two women were BEATEN for removing hate-signs placed on a fence that is on private property.<BR/><BR/>The thing both have in common is that the crimes were perpetrated towards Christians. According to the law, that makes them hate-crimes. <BR/><BR/>Personally, I don't like the idea of hate-crimes because all crime is hate of sorts. But if anything qualifies, these incidences do. There is no doubt in my mind that you see it, you just want to keep denying it. The thing you need to ask yourself is why?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-65057845476871547002008-11-14T00:07:00.000-06:002008-11-14T00:07:00.000-06:00Clark, would "self-professed enemies" be better? T...Clark, would "self-professed enemies" be better? There's got to be some term to describe the very small group of people that want to vandalize LDS buildings or even drive the Church out of California. Or, in other contexts, those who hate the Church for whatever reason and wish to attack it in some way. I don't think many of them mind the "enemy" label.<BR/><BR/>An "enemy" according to the dictionary is "someone who is hostile to, feels hatred towards, opposes the interests of, or intends injury to someone else." Is it wrong to recognize that there are those who strongly oppose our interests, and may even take strong steps to express that hostility? Is there a more politically correct term that we both should use to describe each other? "Not quite friends anymore" is a bit wordy. NQFA?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66210053764869957592008-11-13T23:31:00.000-06:002008-11-13T23:31:00.000-06:00Let's see.First you say it is a hate crime in acti...Let's see.<BR/>First you say it is a hate crime in action. Then some people say they don't see a hate crime. So, you go look up what one is cause you admit that you really don't know. After reading the definition you try to make the video fit the definition of what You think a hate crime is. ( good science there scientist ) When some still don't agree with how you see it, you change course and say this, " Some people have had a hard time imagining that any kind of crime was being committed here. "<BR/>Huh? You said it was a hate crime and then when some don't see it Your way you change and say that. Are YOU serious?<BR/><BR/>"signs stuck on the Temple walls were vandalizing someone else's property"<BR/>No, writing on the walls was vandalism, spray paint is vandalism. A paper sign stuck on an iron fence is not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-48152160510149010452008-11-13T23:26:00.000-06:002008-11-13T23:26:00.000-06:00mark n. The answer is A.mark n. <BR/><BR/>The answer is A.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-26613820165050155042008-11-13T21:27:00.000-06:002008-11-13T21:27:00.000-06:00"Our Faith in Christ on the Line: How Do We Respon...<I>"Our Faith in Christ on the Line: How Do We Respond to Our Enemies in California or Anywhere?"</I><BR/><BR/>Step 1. Stop calling them enemies.<BR/>Step 2. Start calling them potential members.Clark Goblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03876620613578404474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-40931246915555697712008-11-13T21:16:00.000-06:002008-11-13T21:16:00.000-06:00I don't think anyone here is targeting the real is...I don't think anyone here is targeting the real issue. Of course it's terrible that some people are choosing violence and crime to express their anger and frustration. There is no excuse for this.<BR/><BR/>But it's missing the point to cherry-pick instances in which people have lashed out at the church.<BR/><BR/>I just don't think the secular arguments (and that's necessary for public policy) against same-sex marriage are compelling enough to deny them the right - a right they already had in the state.<BR/><BR/>One more thing: a lot of people in the comments are taking cheap shots at liberals, Democrats, etc. Knock it off. It's not fair when they do it to you; it's not fair the other way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19899497716727138892008-11-13T20:31:00.000-06:002008-11-13T20:31:00.000-06:00Today envelopes containing white powder were recei...Today envelopes containing white powder were received at both the Salt Lake and Los Angeles Temples.<BR/><BR/>http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4787495Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77879533546862740302008-11-13T18:59:00.001-06:002008-11-13T18:59:00.001-06:00Alex,It's important to recognize that this new vil...Alex,<BR/>It's important to recognize that this new vile creature: The liberalmormobloggocrats, don't think anyone in the majority has the right to express an opinion if it offensive to a minority. Hate is a term that has been usurped by the liberals to extort an emotional response. This tactic is often used because they have no better logical recourse. <BR/><BR/>-NOYDMBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19480572822466201572008-11-13T18:59:00.000-06:002008-11-13T18:59:00.000-06:00Alex,It's important to recognize that this new vil...Alex,<BR/>It's important to recognize that this new vile creature: The liberalmormobloggocrats, don't think anyone in the majority has the right to express an opinion if it offensive to a minority. Hate is a term that has been usurped by the liberals to extort an emotional response. This tactic is often used because they have no better logical recourse. <BR/><BR/>-NOYDMBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-11509567661823882452008-11-13T18:16:00.000-06:002008-11-13T18:16:00.000-06:00Are you serious? The signs stuck on the Temple wal...Are you serious? The signs stuck on the Temple walls were vandalizing someone else's property, like the scrawled messages of hate. The girls were not stripping away signs rightfully carried by protesters, but removing unwanted and offensive messages inappropriately placed on a sacred religious site. <BR/><BR/>I'm very sorry if you don't understand that.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.com