tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post6124708862155710739..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Scholars and Faith: The Conversion of Heinz CassirerJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18160420749654375052017-01-05T09:26:23.764-06:002017-01-05T09:26:23.764-06:00I knew Heinz Cassirer. His first wife was Christia...I knew Heinz Cassirer. His first wife was Christian and, during their time in Glasgow, worshipped at Bride's Church (High Anglican) at which my uncle, Fr Ernest Allen, was the priest. Dr Cassirer was introduced to my uncle and it was as a result of their discussions that he came to be baptised. (He regarded my uncle as his only intellectual equal - at least, in Glasgow!) When his first wife was dying, knowing that he could not look after himself, she suggested he marry her best friend, which he did. As a result, he moved to Surrey and was baptised at All Saints Church, Woodham which so happened to be where I worshipped. Various family members attended the event and he worshipped at All Saints thereafter. He was, I might add, extremely eccentric.JanetSJAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14507293434727730373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-11636177840418326682016-03-04T09:10:17.136-06:002016-03-04T09:10:17.136-06:00EBU, I'm not sure what you are getting at, unl...EBU, I'm not sure what you are getting at, unless you are simply trying to cast some kind of negative image on the Church, as usual.<br /><br />I shouldn't have to tell <i>you</i> this, but the military and Church are only similar in that there is an organization (except it is common to refer to religious efforts as akin to being enlisted in a war), and as such there are leaders and followers. My only point was that worldly ranks did not apply within the Church.<br /><br />There is a "ranking system," if you will, in priesthood offices. But in terms of callings or positions one might fill in the Church, they come and go and are under fairly constant re-shuffling. There is no individual "higher ranked" than any other in the Church, but a person might occupy a position of leadership for a while.<br /><br />Our bishop while I was in Germany happened to be a major in the Air Force and likely did have the highest military rank of any other in the congregation. But our bishop in Denver was a self-employed carpenter, in a ward where there were military personnel as well.<br /><br />Of course, it is common that people of some worldly accomplishment occupy leadership positions in the Church, but that more likely has to do with inward character traits than outward accolades.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9342089256023400102016-03-03T14:50:08.431-06:002016-03-03T14:50:08.431-06:00Bearyb,
So the military roles were reversed, and ...Bearyb,<br /><br />So the military roles were reversed, and higher ranked men would serve under lower ranked men in the church, implying that even in the church there is still a ranking system, it just doesn't match the system used in the world. <br /><br />Everything Before Usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-22990392868267601552016-03-03T07:19:17.103-06:002016-03-03T07:19:17.103-06:00I couldn't agree more. In the various wards I ...I couldn't agree more. In the various wards I attended in my youth there were usually high concentrations of members in the military. It was great to see the reversal of roles that would play out at times. Members who might have a high military rank would readily serve under those of lower rank. It just didn't matter what you did for a living.<br /><br />One of the best examples of that was in my current ward. A member (Rod Smith) was dean of the local law school and was also serving in the mission presidency. When he was released from that, he was called to serve in the nursery. I remember being very impressed with his interaction with the children. He wouldn't hesitate to get down on the floor in his suit and roll around with the kids and let them climb all over him. His personal operational guideline was "You just have to love them!"<br /><br />This same man recently returned to act as keynote speaker at an interfaith activity in our stake (he is a recognized authority on constitutional law). Afterward I happened upon him in the hallway where I told him of my impressions of him while he served in the nursery years before. I asked him about it and he said he approached that calling like he did all of his callings - he asked the Lord what he should do, and then did it.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31234220566528061832016-03-02T10:25:16.200-06:002016-03-02T10:25:16.200-06:00I should say here in China, not just Shanghai. The...I should say here in China, not just Shanghai. The branches with high concentrations of single adults, like Nanjing and Suzhou, add a lot to the diversity. Young college students struggling as English teachers on almost no pay mingling with corporate executives and all sorts of other people make such an interesting mix. I love how the Gospel helps us look past social status, caste, race, whatever, and see each other as sons and daughters of God worthy of our time and attention. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89955462367062900672016-03-02T10:21:14.516-06:002016-03-02T10:21:14.516-06:00Thanks, BearyB. I share your enthusiasm for testim...Thanks, BearyB. I share your enthusiasm for testimony meetings. Here in Shanghai, they've been really remarkable. Of course, we also have outstanding regular sacrament meetings, too. I've been pleasantly surprised with the the Saints over here in what is one of the most diverse gatherings of Saints I've experienced, with numerous nations, languages, and races represented. There is so much we can learn from each other, especially in testimony meetings. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60967295420274690402016-03-02T07:17:26.535-06:002016-03-02T07:17:26.535-06:00EBU,
Actually in these last few years I have appr...EBU,<br /><br />Actually in these last few years I have appreciated much more than before the unique opportunity afforded us to both bear and hear testimonies. It has become my favorite meeting. I have witnessed some of the "scary" utterances which you describe (one in particular comes to mind - where even a couple of members got up and left) that we hope will not offend an investigator, but we have also seen many investigators stand and speak (even sing!) their testimonies. Living in the Bible belt is sometimes very interesting...<br /><br />As to your predictions about the future of the Church, I'm pretty confident that it will go on with its core doctrines intact for quite some time yet.<br /><br />I am not aware of any "pressure" the Church may be experiencing concerning polygamy (though the Community of Christ may be feeling some). I'm also unsure of what is meant by the "wound" you speak of.<br /><br />You speak of the Church having worked itself into a corner, as if it has ended up in some place where it would rather not be. I completely agree that if it were to denounce a lot of current teachings and claims it would cease to exist as it does. These very things are why it exists at all, so if it is <i>now</i> in a corner, it has <i>always been</i> in a corner. But, for me, it is a very nice corner.<br /><br />One thing that I am sure will happen is that the voices raised against the Church will soon become louder and even more frequent. I believe we are in for some rough treatment ahead, precisely because of the "unforgiving rigidity in certain things" you mention. I would not, however, characterize that as "pressure on the Church" to change any core doctrines any more than Christ felt "pressure" to change any of His teachings. Oh, He was leaned on pretty hard, but how close do you think He was to giving in?bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30852999811177806592016-03-02T05:21:48.843-06:002016-03-02T05:21:48.843-06:00I wonder what "pronouncements of scholars, of...I wonder what <i>"pronouncements of scholars, often disguised as consensus when they rarely are"</i> is an allusion to specifically.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-47135795102580341292016-03-01T14:17:55.222-06:002016-03-01T14:17:55.222-06:00Good points, James. You have a way of saying thing...Good points, James. You have a way of saying things. I think the secret/sacred things of Mormonism are not usually openly discussed because like the story of the bear, they are embarrassing to talk about. <br /><br />Mormonism has sort of worked itself into a corner. It can't reject a lot of things without creating an existential crisis for itself. This has everything to do with the way it has chosen to evolve. It has nothing to do with critical voices and those who attack it. <br /><br />Mormonism's unforgiving rigidity in certain things will continue to increase the pressure it is already under. For instance, its refusal to seriously deal with the polygamy issue will continue to cause many problems for it. The church will continue to blame God for the fact that Joseph Smith married other men's wives rather than simply say, "Joseph messed up." Yes...it will continue to throw God under the bus to justify behavior that has been engaged in by so many cult leaders all throughout history. <br /><br />This isn't really a solution to their problem. It is a temporary band-aid. Someday, the band-aid will need to be torn off if they want to undergo serious treatment for the wound. They will probably bleed out before the real treatment can take effect. The longer they wait, the more grave the results will be. Everything Before Usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-79260493002302631772016-03-01T13:53:53.200-06:002016-03-01T13:53:53.200-06:00I agree that if these more esoteric Mormon doctrin...I agree that if these more esoteric Mormon doctrines were ever secret, they no longer are. I'm not surprised that they're considered inappropriate for public attention, however. But why are they inappropriate? <br /><br />I don't see that sacredness can really be the reason. As EBU points out, these esoteric teachings can hardly be more sacred than the Atonement of Christ, and the Atonement is shouted from the rooftops. I'm afraid think that the comparison with Balaam's ass and Elisha's bears may be uncomfortably closer to the mark. <br /><br />Balaam's ass isn't sacred or secret. What it is, is embarrassing. It's an obviously ridiculous story, a primitive folktale that happens to have a bit of a theological moral. Elisha's bears are worse: a bunch of children get eaten just for teasing an old man about his baldness. If all Elisha had done was yell angrily at the kids, you'd still squirm a bit, at the great prophet's pettiness. Killing children for rudeness is more than just squirm-worthy.<br /><br />If I believed that every word in the Bible were God's earnest message to humanity, I'd be very reluctant to mention either of those passages, because they'd make me look foolish and feel bad. Since I don't believe that, though, I don't care. They're silly old texts in an ancient book. The book is a compilation from many sources, and many of its other texts aren't silly at all.<br /><br />If there are some traditional elements in Mormon teaching that are similarly embarrassing, don't Mormons have the same option, of just rejecting them? You don't have to throw out the baby with the bath water, but can't you sometimes clean the tub?James Anglinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18266855639647700167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-59644607347754258182016-03-01T09:29:03.298-06:002016-03-01T09:29:03.298-06:00Hi EBU,
So how are these secrets holding up for t...Hi EBU,<br /><br />So how are these secrets holding up for the Church? Do you really think that the Church is trying to keep these things secret? It doesn't seem to be working to well for them so I will argue that it is face value when the Church says sacred. After all, one way to show reverence for holy things is not not make them profane (nice Latin based word coming from "outside the temple") so Mormons try to keep temple related doctrine inside the temple.<br /><br />As for other esoteric doctrine, there really isn't much discussion. After all, what does it benefit anyone to talk at length about Kolob? What do we really know about Kolob except for the couple of sentences in the scriptures? Have you ever heard of a sermon about that talking donkey in the Old Testament? No? Me neither. Probably because there isn't much to talk about since there is so little information about it. Or how about when Elijah summoned a bear to maul these kids that were teasing him?<br /><br />So, I'll keep using the term sacred and not secret. I'll talk about sacred topics if the setting is right. If not, I'll refer to them in more vague terms.<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-26054196053232663242016-03-01T07:47:42.375-06:002016-03-01T07:47:42.375-06:00Bunker, when I said someone may correctly talk abo...Bunker, when I said someone may correctly talk about these things, I meant that what they may say about these things could be doctrinally correct. Why would it be incorrect to talk about garments? The church produced a video for all the world to see about garments and temple clothing. The church published an essay for all the world about Heavenly Mother. And yes...there are old nutters in every ward who might stand up and go on about Kolob, or becoming a God, or any number of deep esoteric doctrine. It happens. <br /><br />I once watched a rather quirky man stand up and basically bear testimony of Princess Diana. I watched another man stand up and deliver his testimony in the style of an MTV rapper. I watched a man stand up, spread his arms as if he were crucified as he bore testimony of Jesus. <br /><br />Crazy things happen. It happens with enough frequency that missionaries are always a little worried about bringing investigators to F&T meeting. <br /><br />Would it really be incorrect to bear testimony of Heavenly Mother when the closing hymn might actually refer to her? <br /><br />And why would you consider Kolob or garments so sacred that we shouldn't talk about them? Isn't the atonement of Christ far more sacred than Kolob? Yet, you would never hesitate to talk about that. <br /><br />"Sacred" is a word that has been redefined for you by your leaders. "Sacred" now only refers to things that the Church would rather the rest of the world not know about. "Sacred" as you are using it really means "secret." Think of all the things that you would not share with the world as a Mormon: garments, garment symbols, temple rituals, temple clothing, temple tokens and signs, the new name, doctrines about becoming a God, doctrines about plural marriage, etc....<br /><br />Notice a pattern? These things are not "sacred." They are "secret." Why? Because these things reveal something about your religion that in reality Mormons are quite embarrassed about. These things are not Christian. You can't find them in the Bible. You can't find them in the Book of Mormon. Most of these things you cannot even find in the D&C. Except for plural marriage and becoming a God, there is not scripture that you can even refer that really discusses this stuff. This all came out of the brain of Joseph Smith. Most of these things you aren't even allowed to really talk about in depth even with other members outside of the temple. And really, these things have no obvious connection with the truly sacred truth of salvation through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. <br /><br />Everything Before Usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-44416761188513396402016-03-01T03:07:30.563-06:002016-03-01T03:07:30.563-06:00EBU you made a comment about fast and testimony me...EBU you made a comment about fast and testimony meeting that was not quite right. "Someone might get up there and quite correctly start talking about Kolob or garments or Heavenly Mother". Quite correctly as you put it, is incorrect. It would not be correct to discuss garments or our Heavenly Mother up there as part of a testimony. Not usually at least. These topics are quite sacred. I have never heard anyone ever discuss any of those topics in any fast and testimony meeting. This is not to say that someone couldn't bring up some weird off the wall topic that isn't appropriate for this meeting but it wouldn't really be correct to.<br />As far as the gospel being simple argument goes I would argue that it is. The Gospel is simple. It just isn't easy.bunkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091655088509351675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14454444995259166572016-03-01T03:06:53.067-06:002016-03-01T03:06:53.067-06:00EBU you made a comment about fast and testimony me...EBU you made a comment about fast and testimony meeting that was not quite right. "Someone might get up there and quite correctly start talking about Kolob or garments or Heavenly Mother". Quite correctly as you put it, is incorrect. It would not be correct to discuss garments or our Heavenly Mother up there as part of a testimony. Not usually at least. These topics are quite sacred. I have never heard anyone ever discuss any of those topics in any fast and testimony meeting. This is not to say that someone couldn't bring up some weird off the wall topic that isn't appropriate for this meeting but it wouldn't really be correct to.<br />As far as the gospel being simple argument goes I would argue that it is. The Gospel is simple. It just isn't easy.bunkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091655088509351675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-34266744115321481182016-02-29T08:58:31.010-06:002016-02-29T08:58:31.010-06:00Anglican bishops will still preach sermons most Su...Anglican bishops will still preach sermons most Sundays, somewhere in their dioceses. I'm pretty sure that goes for Catholic or Orthodox or Lutheran bishops, too. And for local priests or pastors, preaching the local sermon is item one on the job description, in all the Christian denominations I know. That's why there's a requirement for seminary training, which at least in some churches normally means a Master's degree in "Divinity". If you're putting on a new 20- to 40-minute presentation every week, it can help to have some specific academic training.<br />James Anglinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18266855639647700167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23991484858118652122016-02-29T08:43:13.597-06:002016-02-29T08:43:13.597-06:00The Episcopal Church is the US branch of the Angli...The Episcopal Church is the US branch of the Anglican communion. It ditched the 'Anglican' name for historical reasons. Today there are more Anglicans in Africa than any other continent, and the African churches are more conservative than the American one.<br /><br />An Anglican bishop is more like Mormon Stake President, I think, being in charge of all the congregations in a "diocese" (usually a city or a large rural district, with maybe a couple of dozen congregations). Bishops are elected by a body of lay delegates and clergy, but then normally serve until death or retirement. An Anglican bishop is pretty much an elected dictator, who can in principle control just about everything in all of the congregations in their diocese. In practice, people don't get elected bishop without being well known in the diocese already, and those who want everyone else to do things in exactly their way don't often get the nod.<br /><br />There's probably some procedure for kicking out a bishop who commits a felony or converts to another religion, but I've never heard of it happening. Unlike in the Roman church, where the hierarchy runs right up to the Pope, the Anglican offices above bishop are just ceremonial. So there are something over 85 million Anglicans in the world, but there's nothing like the Mormon General Authorities. Administratively, Anglicanism is basically a global association of independent bishops.<br /><br />I think the main reason for this casual structure is that, except perhaps for a few wacky factions in the 17th century, nobody has ever thought of the Anglican church as <i>The Church</i>. It exists as a distinct denomination for historical reasons, and its doctrinal differences from other churches are minor details. Anglicans are mostly in favor of spreading Christianity, but attach no great importance to spreading Anglicanism in particular. So there's no good reason for strong global organization.James Anglinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18266855639647700167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-84210319253193731952016-02-29T08:08:31.497-06:002016-02-29T08:08:31.497-06:00Bearyb,
I attend an Episcopal Church, so it is q...Bearyb, <br /><br />I attend an Episcopal Church, so it is quite similar to everything James has been describing. At all churches of all stripes, and I would go so far as to say that in all places were people are gathered, whether at places of employment or community organizations, you will find the full gamut of humanity playing itself out in the same way. <br /><br />The difference, however, is that in the LDS church, there is an open microphone one Sunday each week. It is a long-running inside joke among members of the LDS faith that Fast and Testimony meeting is the scariest time to bring investigators to church because you just have no idea what anyone might say. Someone might get up there and quite correctly start talking about Kolob or garments or Heavenly Mother - things that most Mormons would rather their friends whom they are trying to convert NOT have sprung on them in such an unpredictable manner. <br /><br />I find it somewhat telling that there is so much "advanced" Mormon doctrine that is so uncomfortable for beginners. This doesn't exist in the rest of Christianity. It doesn't. The gospel message is quite simple, except in Mormonism, despite how many times Mormons tell each other "Isn't the Gospel so simple?"<br /><br />It's not simple at all. If my eternal life requires me to go to a special building several hours away, rent special clothing at this special building when I get there, and then engage in rituals that will require me to change attire several times throughout, and then purchase and wear the church-sponsored underwear everyday throughout the rest of my life, then I am not dealing with a "simple" Gospel. Everything Before Usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21963040198614571922016-02-29T06:56:53.685-06:002016-02-29T06:56:53.685-06:00I also meant to say, James, that as far as actual ...I also meant to say, James, that as far as actual "preaching" goes, the bishop rarely does any of it. His role in meetings is usually limited to presiding and conducting, not often involving the delivery of any real message, though it happens occasionally. In fact, even the conducting responsibility is usually rotated among him and his counselors, so there are many meetings when he doesn't get up at all.<br /><br />When one considers the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and their backgrounds, it makes a lot of sense that they have each had extensive experience in all these aspects of Church organization and function, because the best way to learn is by doing.bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-749704057335686992016-02-29T06:45:01.133-06:002016-02-29T06:45:01.133-06:00So, ETBU, what happens at your church?So, ETBU, what happens at your church?bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32091650564145833072016-02-25T12:23:25.780-06:002016-02-25T12:23:25.780-06:00A surgeon and a bishop — wow. That's one dedic...A surgeon and a bishop — wow. That's one dedicated guy. I hope he doesn't burn out.<br /><br />I'm still not sold on making everything amateur, but I've often thought that churches could do better at involving lay people in running programs, in a more organized way.James Anglinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18266855639647700167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37650597561153876192016-02-25T11:19:45.740-06:002016-02-25T11:19:45.740-06:00The Mormon pulpit is unique. 12 times each year an...The Mormon pulpit is unique. 12 times each year anyone can stand up there and say just about anything they want, within reason. It provides many people who are trying to work out their "issues" a vehicle by which they can do this in a very public way. People stroke their egos up there. People get much-needed attention. People use the experience as a catharsis, breaking down into tears, sometimes even before they get any words out. Young children begin to build identity at the microphone. Adolescents use it to pass along inside jokes and basically reaffirm the cohesiveness of their peer group.<br /><br />Everything Before Usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21123945478879926452016-02-25T07:15:59.929-06:002016-02-25T07:15:59.929-06:00I'm not sure how familiar you are with the way...I'm not sure how familiar you are with the way the LDS Church is organized, but at the local level a typical congregation is called a "ward" and is led by a bishop and two men that assist him as counselors. Other organizations exist within the ward, of course, and follow this same pattern - a leader with two counselors. None of these are paid positions. Our current bishop, for example, is a thoracic surgeon by day.<br /><br />Many of the temporal needs of the members are met by other members through organized programs of fellowship and service known as Home Teaching (men) and Visiting Teaching (women), greatly alleviating what could otherwise be a major workload on the bishop - though he still typically spends what amounts to a full-time job doing things only he can do. <br /><br />Bishops are "called" from among the congregation, and are not required to have any formal seminary training or certification, other than being a member in good standing in the Church. A person will typically spend 3-5 years (a duration which varies greatly) in the position, so there is a periodical shifting of leadership within the unit. Other positions in the ward are similarly filled, and a person could conceivably serve in all of them (sometimes several times) throughout their life (many are gender specific though.) Things are set up so that, ideally, everyone in the ward has at least one assignment or area of responsibility.<br /><br />You mentioned that in your experience people don't stay in the "preaching" profession unless they are good at it. In my experience, none of the bishops I've ever known have ever sought the position (it's not the way things are done), and they are eventually "released" no matter how "good" they are at it. I hope never to be called to serve in that position myself!bearybhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06489716403013822895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-59565684976683831182016-02-25T06:11:32.622-06:002016-02-25T06:11:32.622-06:00The Mormon sacrament meeting would seem to be a mi...The Mormon sacrament meeting would seem to be a mixture of both. The sacramental prayer is liturgical, but the rest of the service is not. The sacrament prayer is like one of the parts in a liturgy where only the priest speaks; the choreographed participation of the congregation seems to be absent. In that sense it's like the non-liturgical services in which a few people perform while the rest sit and listen. <br /><br />The big difference in Mormon services seems to be, though, that for Mormons the few people performing are a different few people each week. There's something to be said for that. For one thing, I expect you get to know the other people in your church in a way that you otherwise wouldn't. On the other hand, though, everything has the defects of its merits. I've heard a few deadly sermons from professional preachers, but on the whole my experience has been that people don't stick it out in the preaching profession unless they're good at it. It's also a big part of their job, so they work hard at it. I'd be surprised if the average member of a congregation could really do as well at preaching. It's not a trivial task.<br /><br />The way I see it, my family and I spend a couple of hours at church each Sunday, between the time we arrive and the time we finish chatting to people afterwards over coffee (or running around shrieking with the other kids). Even if this were just entertainment, it ought to be worth about the money we'd spend to all go to a movie. Multiply by fifty-two weeks and N families, and you can afford to pay a pastor a living wage, even before you start reckoning whether your faith is worth more than a movie, or whether you can call it a charity to keep the church doors open for anyone in need.James Anglinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18266855639647700167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-48949948229538512632016-02-25T05:52:05.530-06:002016-02-25T05:52:05.530-06:00At least as I use the term, a prayer book is a boo...At least as I use the term, a prayer book is a book of printed prayers. Much of the service consists of reading (or perhaps chanting) these printed prayers aloud. Some parts are read in unison by everyone, others by the officiating priest or lay service leader; some parts are a back-and-forth between leader and congregation. A few hymns are scattered through the service; these are also read from books (or perhaps have the lyrics projected on a screen). The hymns are drawn from a hymnbook of hundreds, and somebody selects a different handful each week.<br /><br />Somewhere in there is the sermon, which usually takes about 20 minutes. The preacher normally speaks from a prepared text, but it's almost always one that they prepared themselves in the preceding week. So in the whole service, which normally lasts a bit over an hour, the sermon is probably the only part which doesn't follow some set form of words. Nowadays prayer books all have multiple alternative forms of each major service element, so that the you're not just saying the same words every week. And there's usually a few brief prayers that change weekly, in a yearly cycle. The number of different possible permutations to make up a service may in fact be large. But each major chunk of the liturgy will be one of only half a dozen options. <br /><br />There are a couple of key phrases in the consecration of holy communion that have to be said right, because they're the words that Jesus commanded in the gospels. But otherwise nobody freaks out if somebody muffs a line from the prayer book. It's not a sacred text, just a tool for running services. The custom of having standardized prayers seems to be old. Some of the oldest extant Christian documents are liturgies, and the modern prayer books still follow them pretty closely, as variations on an old theme.<br /><br />Whether or not there's a prayer book is probably the biggest difference between different kinds of Christian church services. My own impression from attending non-liturgical churches is that in reality things are still pretty standardized. There's a set order of events, and people tend to say similar things at similar times. In fact what I mainly notice is not spontaneity, but spectation. Without a prayer book, most of the service seems to consist of the congregation sitting and listening to the pastor pray and preach.James Anglinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18266855639647700167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39536061079450855052016-02-24T22:36:47.079-06:002016-02-24T22:36:47.079-06:00Jeff I am a member of the Church, and I am not hap...Jeff I am a member of the Church, and I am not happy with so many within the Church, trying to be accepted by a group who has no authority to call us a Christian. I say they can keep the name and I will be more than happy, if they just call me a Saint, just as I am called by my Father in Heaven. Our doctrine has a lot of its roots within the earliest father's of Christianity, but it does not become a convincing argument to convince those who are bent to see us become non existent as a society. Our doctrine is in the bible and that is the only thing that is valid. The only other valid point that is, is that we are unlike any other society for now, but as history teaches us, especially the Book of Mormon, we become complacent, and desire to be accepted by the mases, because we do not want to look out of place. Have you ever been asked, are you a Christian, and what is your answer? When I am asked that question, I tell them that I am a Saint, who accept Jesus Christ as my Savior. After that I explain in more detail what I mean but, I emphasize that I am a Saint and not a Christian.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03776733738035969874noreply@blogger.com