tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post6681080093434558658..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: "And Their Numbers Were Few"Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-24242184694795209682012-07-13T14:12:12.380-05:002012-07-13T14:12:12.380-05:00Let's see... "Fill the whole earth."...Let's see... "Fill the whole earth." Now what might that mean? Not necessarily that every person joins the LDS Church, since we know that in the Millennium not everyone will be members. I believe it means that the presence of the church will be felt everywhere. In what respect, however, I do not know. <br /><br />And in answer to "Anonymous", with all due respect, your assertions are as ambiguous as your nom de plume. Perform all the mental gymnastics you like. In the end,truth will prevail and we will be happy to teach you what you will need to know.Ormsby Familyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495181668617592771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32916014535345198462012-07-11T16:39:58.803-05:002012-07-11T16:39:58.803-05:00You know what, I am FURIOUS my leaders are carryin...You know what, I am FURIOUS my leaders are carrying on with this SCAM! In reality, I love the restored gospel, I love it with ALL my heart. It is Oh so true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74686942641983521442012-07-07T11:32:59.263-05:002012-07-07T11:32:59.263-05:00Their numbers are few for many reasons. But mostl...Their numbers are few for many reasons. But mostly because it isn't a true church. Perform all the mental gymnastics you like. In the end, it isn't true and someday you'll see. You should be furious your leaders are carrying on with this scam.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80635141531081249462012-07-05T23:07:03.932-05:002012-07-05T23:07:03.932-05:00From an earthly perspective our numbers are few, b...From an earthly perspective our numbers are few, but with an expanded perspective that is not the case. In 2011, 32 million Temple endowments were performed. Based on the number of operating Temples during this dispensation, over 800 million of our kindred dead have had the opportunity to become members. Assuming 50% males, that means that potentially there are 400 million priesthood holders, plus those that have passed on in this dispensation, inhabitants of the city of Enoch, and so on. Where once satanic spirits could roam the earth freely, they now have to deal with numerous blocking Melchizedek holding spirits. I view it as a push pull interaction. For decades, we had to push both membership and Temple expansion, but we are now entering a period of being pulled along....Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03699507407576964603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-61775520537085162812012-07-04T09:55:13.086-05:002012-07-04T09:55:13.086-05:00If Barbra Walters is getting into heaven, accordin...If Barbra Walters is getting into heaven, according to our own general authority, then we're clearly saying Mormons aren't the only ones there in the spirit world.<br /><br />Mark SteeleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13850426511346710202012-07-03T13:31:43.082-05:002012-07-03T13:31:43.082-05:00Eveningsun,
Of course you're right about argu...Eveningsun,<br /><br />Of course you're right about argumentum ad populum, the appeal to popularity, being a rhetorical fallacy, that the popularity of a belief has nothing to do with its truth.<br /><br />However, it's not silly to refer to it in this case and here's why. Popularity <i>must</i> correlate to some degree with truth in the case of 'One True' faiths believing in a benevolent, omnipotent and intervening God working for salvation of <i>all</i> humankind.<br /><br />By 'One True' faiths, I mean faiths claiming the sole means to salvation.<br /><br />At the very least, such a God should ensure that all people were sufficiently informed about a faith to accept or reject it. There must be at least a minimum number of adherents in the world to even make this possible.<br /><br />This, of course, is related to the more general <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil" rel="nofollow">Problem of Evil</a> and more specifically to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fate_of_the_unlearned" rel="nofollow">Fate of the Unlearned</a>.<br /><br />Specifically, there is a missing piece here connecting LDS Truth and how many people believe it:<br /><br /><i>D&C 65:2: The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.</i><br /><br />That is, if the LDS gospel does not fill the earth, this prophecy is not fulfilled, therefore casting doubt on its Truth. <br /><br />The LDS have always seen the Gospel on an epic scale, marching across the west, spreading the faith to the world, filling it up, baptizing all the dead, preparing it until the time Christ returns to rule an LDS theocracy for a thousand years. <br /><br />If this vision fails to materialize due to a low number of adherents, it does say something about the truth of LDS prophecies.Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39771060424270455812012-07-03T09:26:31.064-05:002012-07-03T09:26:31.064-05:00I trust everyone here has heard of the fallacy kno...I trust everyone here has heard of the fallacy known as argumentum ad populum. The number of people who drink any given flavor of Kool-Aid has nothing to do with the truth of that Kool-Aid, whether it's Islam, Mormonism, or supply-side economics. Whether wielded by pro-Mormons or anti-Mormons, such arguments are just silly.<br /><br />In response to some of the comments above about the Church's ultimate hegemony: Christianity generally and LDS doctrine in particular have long struck me as <i>essentially</i> anti-democratic. By this I mean specifically that they see liberal democracy not as a good in itself, but as a mere stepping-stone enabling the eventual supremacy of their own worldview, and the eventual instantiation of that worldview in a theocratic government.<br /><br />The end result is a world of believers, for believers. Sometimes this vision is expressed in ways that are horrific (read, for example, <i>Glorious Appearing</i>, the last of the <i>Left Behind</i> series, in which a returning Jesus, with a dispatch that would make Hitler jealous, kills off all the Jews who have not converted to Christianity).<br /><br />Fortunately, Mormon theology is much gentler. The LDS vision still seems to see unity of religious belief as an ultimate good, but rather than achieving that unity by forcefully segregating believers into Heaven and nonbelievers into Hell in one violent, irrevocable stroke, we see instead a long-running effort at peaceable persuasion that (thanks to vicarious baptism) continues after death and into eternity.<br /><br />It's a much nicer way to get to the same endpoint: a theocratic world in which everyone believes in the same religion. It's a nonviolent vision that values persuasion over force, but it is nonetheless illiberal in that it sees the ultimate good in unity rather than diversity of belief.<br /><br />It's a little weird, really. LDS theology sees things like marriage and family continuing into eternity, and it sees that continuation as a selling point, because it sees marriage and family as such good things in themselves.<br /><br />But it doesn't seem to envision an eternity of theological debate over the Big Questions, for the simple reason that it doesn't see such debate as a good thing in itself. It sees such debate as instrumental, as a good thing only insofar as it leads eventually to Ultimate Truth, which of course it claims to already know. (Of course the LDS Church is hardly alone in this.)<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23302450565591890392012-07-02T19:26:39.460-05:002012-07-02T19:26:39.460-05:00Anon,
Be careful there. Your standards would put I...Anon,<br />Be careful there. Your standards would put Islam on the same level of Mormonism, with all that the founder convinced his people of.<br /><br />And that of many of the religions that sprung up during the 2nd Great Awakening. <br /><br />Do you really think Mormonism is unique for being improbable? Or even true because of it? You're touching something you have no idea about, hereOpenmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32240377115585102932012-07-02T19:23:18.139-05:002012-07-02T19:23:18.139-05:00Alexander,
I mistook the Restoration for the Spiri...Alexander,<br />I mistook the Restoration for the Spirit World. Not sure how I missed that part. Before I repeat my argument with the correction, I'll have you know it still stands even without the spirit world. Your church doesn't baptize the Jewish holocaust victims. anyways:<br /><br />...Or is Mormonism going to be the only belief system allowed during the Mormon's version of the [Spirit World]?<br /><br />Because if not, then you'll be up against other religions who think praying for answers and feeling the spirit justifies their own version of what's on the other sideOpenmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-64218398392892486972012-07-02T16:40:06.547-05:002012-07-02T16:40:06.547-05:00Anonymous said:
You want improbable? How about Jos...Anonymous said:<br /><i>You want improbable? How about Joseph Smith being able to convince multiple witnesses to testify that they had seen an angel and/or seen and touched the gold plates, and stay true to that testimony to death even when it would have been to their advantage to recant. Highly improbable if it were all a fraud.</i><br /><br />Here's improbable:<br /><br />- That, membership-wise, the One True Church has so few members. You'd think that the Lord's church would be more successful, since the Lord doesn't fail.<br />- God the Father and the Son appearing in body to JS. <br />- Golden plates (coincidentally) buried in the hill close to his house.<br />- An angel bodily appearing to JS multiple times.<br />- Lamanites descending from Israelites given DNA evidence.<br />- All the improbabilities in the Book of Mormon, vast battles without a trace, no steel weapons found, etc., etc.<br />- JS *happens* upon a papyrus written by the hand of Abraham, and is able to translate it, providing key, unique doctrines to the church<br />- The Book of Mormon translation comes with large portions quoted nearly verbatim from the KJV bible.<br />- The inspired temple ceremonies coincidentally similar to the Scottish Rite Masonic rituals.<br />- That three Nephites still roam the earth..<br /><br />So many others..Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-48620406735141443762012-07-02T16:10:28.432-05:002012-07-02T16:10:28.432-05:00@Alexander
Baptism for the dead cannot possibly b...@Alexander<br /><br />Baptism for the dead cannot possibly be performed for all the people who've ever lived (currently estimated at around 100 billion) by the very few members of the Church, even if there were good quality records for all of them, which there certainly aren't.<br /><br />What will happen to them then?Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89944888795873245762012-07-02T10:57:58.478-05:002012-07-02T10:57:58.478-05:00I think similar thoughts when I read that scriptur...I think similar thoughts when I read that scripture. Thanks for postingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41481878124635890942012-07-02T10:21:41.047-05:002012-07-02T10:21:41.047-05:00You want improbable? How about Joseph Smith being ...You want improbable? How about Joseph Smith being able to convince multiple witnesses to testify that they had seen an angel and/or seen and touched the gold plates, and stay true to that testimony to death even when it would have been to their advantage to recant. Highly improbable if it were all a fraud.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77356429545713930152012-07-02T06:56:48.985-05:002012-07-02T06:56:48.985-05:00@ Openminded:
Who says EVERYONE has to find Mormo...@ Openminded:<br /><br />Who says EVERYONE has to find Mormonism reasonable DURING their lifetime?<br /><br />Mormons don't say that. Read up on LDS doctrines concerning the Spirit World.Alexandernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14044027115084161342012-07-01T22:00:23.553-05:002012-07-01T22:00:23.553-05:00Universalism is a lot more fair than pretending pe...Universalism is a lot more fair than pretending people all have a fair shot at learning Mormonism and finding it reasonable in their life time. <br /><br />People grow up with different values and religions and political landscapes, the odds are unfairly stacked against the much-less fortunate. Or is Mormonism going to be the only belief system allowed during the Mormon's version of the Restoration?<br /><br />Because if not, then you'll be up against other religions who think praying for answers and feeling the spirit justifies their own version of what's on the other sideOpenmindedhttp://omsthought.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-65611405338714319562012-07-01T13:34:50.475-05:002012-07-01T13:34:50.475-05:00Very inspirational post thank you as usual Jeff.Very inspirational post thank you as usual Jeff.Zerabpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17159189298423377112012-07-01T13:10:17.976-05:002012-07-01T13:10:17.976-05:00You're wasting your time, Anonymous. The proba...You're wasting your time, Anonymous. The probability that the Church is true is exactly 100%, because I have a testimony. The rest is irrelevant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-48043513867871217582012-07-01T11:32:20.601-05:002012-07-01T11:32:20.601-05:00This looks like a job for the Rev. Bayes. (Please ...This looks like a job for the Rev. Bayes. (Please don't take these calculations too seriously. I clearly have too much time on my hands.)<br /><br />The probability that if I'd be born into the LDS church that the church is true {P(T/B)} equals the probability that if the LDS church is true that I'd be born into it {P(B/T)} times the probability that the LDS church is true {P(T)} divided by the probability that I'd be born into the LDS church {P(B)}. Number of estimated world sects is 3200, so from an outsider's POV, P(T) is 1/3200 (assuming that one of them must be true, which is questionable). P(B) is about 14000000/7023000000. The value of P(B/T) is anyone's guess, but it has to be less than or equal to one. So P(T/B) is less than or equal to 0.15. Hmm. So there is a chance. <br /><br />The interesting thing here is that as P(B) increases, P(T/B) goes down. So P(T/B) is higher if the church is smaller.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17534534378461035812012-06-30T23:07:33.929-05:002012-06-30T23:07:33.929-05:00Thanks for the post; you made me think, and I agre...Thanks for the post; you made me think, and I agree with you.Shboogoo's Mommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17965913903848412172noreply@blogger.com